When West and Haywood come back...

[j0Shi]

Why are you talking West vs. Roddy when the real topic is Roddy vs. Terry

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Why are you talking West vs. Roddy when the real topic is Roddy vs. Terry

Roddy versus terry is no contest, roddy fails.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Roddy versus terry is no contest, roddy fails.

Both fail this year, that's the sad truth.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Both fail this year, that's the sad truth.

I just disagree about jet. He's going through a bad stretch as is the entire team. His stats are not that far off from last year, I expect that's because he started so well this year. His effort defensively is always an issue. As far as the rest of it, I think the entire team isn't executing worth a crap. No one really.

As Ive mentioned before I also think jet is pretty negatively effected without having the Tyson lob threat. The opposing img team has nothing to get from really aggressively contesting shots in the lane this year versus last.

[clutch#41]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Roddy versus terry is no contest, roddy fails.

if roddy and terry played 1 on 1 my money is on Roddy. he would shut terry down with his D

[CadBane]

I'm wrong that having West back will help our team? What a moron.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by CadBane

I'm wrong that having West back will help our team? What a fucking moron.

I take that as a compliment from you. No, your reasons why you want him back, are what wrong. Chances are, he won't give us penetration, and he won't give us consistent outside shooting. But he will give us depth, and will give us defense, the problem? The guy he's gonna knock out of the rotation (Roddy) is virtually giving us the very same production. Why would we become better then? Tell me.

[4DN1]

It's disappointing year after year to see Haywood still out there for the Mavs when I know there's a chance to get someone a little better out of a trade with him. He costs way more than he should and he's extremely sloppy and just simply does not have his head in the game a lot of the time. If they continue to work with Mahinmi I'll go as far as saying he'd be a better starter.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by 4DN1

It's disappointing year after year to see Haywood still out there for the Mavs when I know there's a chance to get someone a little better out of a trade with him. He costs way more than he should and he's extremely sloppy and just simply does not have his head in the game a lot of the time. If they continue to work with Mahinmi I'll go as far as saying he'd be a better starter.

Fail.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by 4DN1

It's disappointing year after year to see Haywood still out there for the Mavs when I know there's a chance to get someone a little better out of a trade with him. He costs way more than he should and he's extremely sloppy and just simply does not have his head in the game a lot of the time. If they continue to work with Mahinmi I'll go as far as saying he'd be a better starter.

Mahinmi has a pretty long way to go before he's a starting center. Probably another three years and that is assuming he works hard and beefs up some more.

[4DN1]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Mahinmi has a pretty long way to go before he's a starting center. Probably another three years and that is assuming he works hard and beefs up some more.

I'm saying when Mahinmi is ready, he'll be a better starter than Haywood. Haywood is just a big body to keep in the paint. His rebounding is inconsistent and i feel like he often lacks big man defense.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by 4DN1

I'm saying when Mahinmi is ready, he'll be a better starter than Haywood. Haywood is just a big body to keep in the paint. His rebounding is inconsistent and i feel like he often lacks big man defense.

Stupid post is stupid.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by 4DN1

I'm saying when Mahinmi is ready, he'll be a better starter than Haywood. Haywood is just a big body to keep in the paint. His rebounding is inconsistent and i feel like he often lacks big man defense.

I'm not sure what you see defensively that you don't see from Haywood, but either way you probably picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

[grndmstr_c]

One thing about Delonte. My guess is that Kidd, JET, Marion and Dirk all simply have an easier time finding their comfort zones when Delonte's out there than when Booby's out there. It's nothing to do with who shoots or handles better. It's just veteran know-how and decisiveness. I don't know if this team will ultimately be able to get over the damage that the lockout, the championship hangover, and Lamar Odom have wrought, but I do think that the resiliency and cohesiveness will benefit measurably from West's return.

[dude1394]

Roddy just has not shown the ability to be aggressive and run the team. Nor has he shown the ability to be consistently aggressive as the shooting guard. Nor has he shown the ability to run the point worth a durn.

Carlisle has forced him to defend however,,which he should be forever grateful.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Roddy just has not shown the ability to be aggressive and run the team. Nor has he shown the ability to be consistently aggressive as the shooting guard. Nor has he shown the ability to run the point worth a durn.

Carlisle has forced him to defend however,,which he should be forever grateful.

I agree, he didn't. The problem, West didn't show it either, and Terry sucks donkey balls all year as well. Kidd is not much better himself, and Carter is plummeting after the good start, like a meteor. Does any team has a worse back court? I really don't even wanna think about, beacuse i really think i'd take any back court in the NBA right now.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

I agree, he didn't. The problem, West didn't show it either, and Terry sucks donkey balls all year as well. Kidd is not much better himself, and Carter is plummeting after the good start, like a meteor. Does any team has a worse back court? I really don't even wanna think about, beacuse i really think i'd take any back court in the NBA right now.

See above wrt jet, I just disagree.... The difference is that with rest they will probably elevate their play, they've shown it for years... Roddy might..but his problems are much more mental than physical to me. Harder to fix.

[j0Shi]

Originally Posted by dude1394

See above wrt jet, I just disagree.... The difference is that with rest they will probably elevate their play, they've shown it for years... Roddy might..but his problems are much more mental than physical to me. Harder to fix.

That said, I think Terry has "mental issues" as well this year. These whole comments throughout keep me thinking that he has a hard time dealing with his contract situation. He delivered a championship to the franchise and now they're basically telling him that he's not worth more than the minimum starting with the next year. That's tough and he already stated that he's affected by it.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

That said, I think Terry has "mental issues" as well this year. These whole comments throughout keep me thinking that he has a hard time dealing with his contract situation. He delivered a championship to the franchise and now they're basically telling him that he's not worth more than the minimum starting with the next year. That's tough and he already stated that he's affected by it.

From what the dirkster says they have to rein in jet a couple of times a year. I believe you are correct that he is affected by the contract but jet is a gamer and has enough intestinal fortitude and drive to get over it.

Roddy..I just don't know...the difference between players is so slim in the nba that unless you have that internal drive you just stay an ok player. If he doesn't get a lot tougher I just don't see him being a high contributing rotation player and wildly inconsistent. He won't fit on a team with championship aspirations.

[Underdog]

Reading this thread is almost as hard as watching a Mavs game these days - the parallels of fail are about equal.

[Dale4Saul2Red0]

West is pretty key. He allows us to do different things. He will instantly improve the defense. Still though we seem to lack focus at times. Haywood is going to help too. We just need to try and stay afloat and finish solid enough to get in the playoffs. I really think that is the main thing this organization is trying to do right now. No need to rush anyone back either as long as we don't have to. Play it smart. Fresh for the push.

[jthig32]

This is, admittedly, flimsy evidence, but as far as I can tell, the BReference.com play index only allows you to put the scoring margin of a game into the search criteria if you're looking for shots. The results are:

For this season, during the fourth quarter when the Mavs are up or down 15 points or less, Roddy has 15 FGA in 6 games and West has 16 in 8 games. Obviously they will only register as having played in the game if they took a shot.

For this season, during the fourth quarter when the Mavs are up or down 16 or more, Roddy has 15 FGA in 6 games and West has 4 FGA in 1 game.

Now, this is obviously very crude information, but unless you think that Delonte has played in a handful of blowouts and simply not taken a shot during that time (possible, I suppose), this does seem to back up what I consider to be a very obvious observation that Roddy has played significantly more garbage time than Delonte.

I'd be curious to know if Joshi has the appropriate data to query minutes played based on scoring margin.

Beyond the discussion of garbage time, I'd just like to say that I have little use for anyone that completely discounts advanced stats, and I have even less use for any analysis performed based solely on them. The on/off court numbers at 82games.com has Marion listed as a net negative player for this season and last season, and the numbers say that we allow 4 fewer points per 48 minutes with him on the bench. Would anyone on this board like to claim that the Mavs are better defensively when Marion sits? No.

Also, one thing I haven't seen mentioned in the debate (although I could have missed it) is that Delonte defense both guard positions well, while Roddy to my eyes, only excels defending PG's.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by jthig32

This is, admittedly, flimsy evidence, but as far as I can tell, the BReference.com play index only allows you to put the scoring margin of a game into the search criteria if you're looking for shots. The results are:

For this season, during the fourth quarter when the Mavs are up or down 15 points or less, Roddy has 15 FGA in 6 games and West has 16 in 8 games. Obviously they will only register as having played in the game if they took a shot.

I don't understand, first, you say this.

Originally Posted by jthig32

For this season, during the fourth quarter when the Mavs are up or down 16 or more, Roddy has 15 FGA in 6 games and West has 4 FGA in 1 game.

And after that, this. Am i reading this right, the only difference, is that you use 16 points deficit, or advantage here? I don't get it.

Originally Posted by jthig32

Now, this is obviously very crude information, but unless you think that Delonte has played in a handful of blowouts and simply not taken a shot during that time (possible, I suppose), this does seem to back up what I consider to be a very obvious observation that Roddy has played significantly more garbage time than Delonte.

So what are we saying in reference to Cad Bane, and markus' claim, that those 15 garbage time shot attempts, which would add a whooping 0,53333 attempt per game, are somehow padding his stat? I know you didn't say that, but they're saying exactly that.

What i read from those stats, is that we barely played any garbage time this year. 15 shot attempts in 30 games, from a high usage guy like Roddy? I think it's clear as day his stats aren't affected by that. I don't think i ever claimed Roddy didn't play more garbage time minutes than West. What i claimed, is that we barely played any garbage time, as most our games were either close, or in striking distance, we were either down, or up 4-6-8-10 in the fourth. We obviously barely blew any team out this year, because of our offense. So again, how is their original claim is right? It's not, especially if you factor in that Roddy comes in against starters in both the first, and third quarter.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

I don't understand, first, you say this.



And after that, this. Am i reading this right, the only difference, is that you use 16 points deficit, or advantage here? I don't get it.

I'm not sure what's not to get. First query is scoring margin <= 15. Second query is scoring margin >= 16.

So what are we saying in reference to Cad Bane, and markus' claim, that those 15 garbage time shot attempts, which would add a whooping 0,53333 attempt per game, are somehow padding his stat? I know you didn't say that, but they're saying exactly that.

What i read from those stats, is that we barely played any garbage time this year. 15 shot attempts in 30 games, from a high usage guy like Roddy? I think it's clear as day his stats aren't affected by that. I don't think i ever claimed Roddy didn't play more garbage time minutes than West. What i claimed, is that we barely played any garbage time, as most our games were either close, or in striking distance, we were either down, or up 4-6-8-10 in the fourth. We obviously barely blew any team out this year, because of our offense. So again, how is their original claim is right? It's not, especially if you factor in that Roddy comes in against starters in both the first, and third quarter.

What it's essentially showing is that Roddy has taken at least one shot in five blowouts that Delonte didn't. As I mentioned, it's crude, but it does seem to show that Roddy is a lot more likely to play in a blowout situation than Delonte.

And that's just taking into account 4th quarters. There have certainly been games this season where the game was well out of hand one way or the other prior to the 4th.

This doesn't really "prove" anything, but it does at least seem to jive with the assertion that Roddy has benefited from garbage minutes. You may ultimately be correct that there's not enough minutes in the sample to matter, but maybe not. I'd be curious to know if Joshi has the data.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not sure what's not to get. First query is scoring margin <= 15. Second query is scoring margin >= 16.

Yep, language barrier, sorry.

Originally Posted by jthig32

What it's essentially showing is that Roddy has taken at least one shot in five blowouts that Delonte didn't. As I mentioned, it's crude, but it does seem to show that Roddy is a lot more likely to play in a blowout situation than Delonte.

Well, we knew that already, didn't we? Obviously, i never said that's not the case. Carlisle's clearly prefers veteran players, unless there is a massive gap in production toward the young player. Unfortunately, that's not the case with Roddy.

Originally Posted by jthig32

And that's just taking into account 4th quarters. There have certainly been games this season where the game was well out of hand one way or the other prior to the 4th.

A handful of games... maybe. The first 2 (where Roddy barely played) and maybe a couple more after that, certainly not much. Our offense doesn't allow us to blow teams out, and our defense doesn't allow us to lose by much. (excluding the first 2 clusterf**k against Heat and Nuggets)

Originally Posted by jthig32

This doesn't really "prove" anything, but it does at least seem to jive with the assertion that Roddy has benefited from garbage minutes. You may ultimately be correct that there's not enough minutes in the sample to matter, but maybe not. I'd be curious to know if Joshi has the data.

I think it does prove something, that we barely played games where were any garbage time. The number of your sample size (assuming it's correct) shows exactly that, and makes it highly unlikely that we can talk about any possible benefit that Roddy could have had. 15 garbage time field goal attempt in 30 games? That's pretty self-explanatory, i don't know why we shouldn't accept the obvious assumption. There wasn't any significant garbage time this year.

[j0Shi]

The +/- 15 stats:

http://i43.tinypic.com/250m6te.png

[dude1394]

Stats this year are pretty dirty. I actually discount many of them this year. It is all about rest and health for me. The rest of it is pretty much garbage and little to be gleaned from it.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Stats this year are pretty dirty. I actually discount many of them this year. It is all about rest and health for me. The rest of it is pretty much garbage and little to be gleaned from it.

Yup. I also significantly discount the predictive value of this year's individual stats.

[j0Shi]

Yeah, but although we had JJB (Terry also played much better), our backcourt last year ranked 20+ as well. So it's not really a downgrade, especially because the defensive stats have improved as you would expect (-Barea +West). Mavs allow 38.7 Points from opposing guards on 38.7% shooting compared to 39.6 (41.6%) last year.

[grndmstr_c]

Per ESPN, sounds like Delonte's still a ways away. Finger hasn't healed enough for them to take the pins out yet.

News is better on Wood and Wright, and it sounds like both of them will be good to go tomorrow.

[markus1234]

In garbage time or in extended minutes vs. a bench unit, you'll automatically pad your stats. Players always look better in those situations, because you face a worse opponent on defense and offense. You can grab more rebounds, you can score more high % points and there is less danger to turn the ball over.

[JeffViggiano]

haters gonna hate!

go roddyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[b_o_r]

This thread has gone to hell. Anyone denying that West wouldn't have a positive impact on this team when he comes back belongs on the short yellow bus. It gives Carlisle flexibility. You can rest Kidd more often against the small PG or pair Kidd/Beaubois together so that West could lead the 2nd unit. The list goes on. Also, it has already been established that West is one of the leaders in the locker room.

Originally Posted by markus1234

In garbage time or in extended minutes vs. a bench unit, you'll automatically pad your stats. Players always look better in those situations, because you face a worse opponent on defense and offense. You can grab more rebounds, you can score more high % points and there is less danger to turn the ball over.

This logic hasn't really applied to Roddy this year. Outside of the 2nd game against Denver (he and West both put up good numbers in that game during garbage time), I don't remember Roddy doing anything of significance in garbage time. He tends to shut it down and stand in the corner as a floor spacer while Jones runs the team.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by markus1234

In garbage time or in extended minutes vs. a bench unit, you'll automatically pad your stats. Players always look better in those situations, because you face a worse opponent on defense and offense. You can grab more rebounds, you can score more high % points and there is less danger to turn the ball over.

Yet, Roddy's stats are worse. Did you even read my previous post?

[redzwestisbest]

Budapest, while I disagree with your putting down of Delonte through 'stats' that have been contrued for use in favor of your argument, I am on your side about Roddy.

Roddy produces points consistently whether it be in garbage time or in a competitive game. Sometimes like everyone else he can't hit a shot. The main thing about Roddy is that when his shot isn't falling he tends to be a negative.

This is where your argument against Delonte really fails and many have already touched on this. A player like Delonte, when his shot isn't falling can contribute in a variety of ways and most importantly many of those ways do not show up in the box score or any other explicitly direct stats. Delonte (Marion too) is like the nose tackle in the 3-4 defense in football. He takes on alot of responsibility that gets uncredited when he is out on the defensive side of the ball especially. He allows other players to do what they do well, allows certain units to be on the floor together, because he is picking up minutes in situations others can't or are not willing to do. He doesn't pout and his energy doesn't suffer whether he is playing 30 minutes or 18 minutes. Delonte is a player like water..pour him down rocks and he will fill in the gaps.

thats all I have to say about that.

Get well soon Delonte...

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by redzwestisbest

Budapest...eh...roddy produces points consistently whether it be in garbage time or in a competitive game. Sometimes like everyone else he can't hit a shot. The main thing about Roddy is that when his shot isn't falling he tends to be a negative. A player like Delonte, when his shot isn't falling can contribute in a variety of ways and most importantly many of those ways do not show up in the box score or any other explicitly direct stats.

thats all I have to say about that.

Get well soon Delonte...

I'll take both and put Carter to the bench tbh. I like West starting as he can cover for Kidd's weaknesses as well as guard 2 guards if needed.

[markus1234]

Nobody here hates Roddy. It is simply time for him to produce solid stats on regular basis and become more than a poor man's Devin Harris.

[Bayliss]

That gif cracks me up.

[nowhereman]

Man, it always feels so awkward when Delonte West posts on this board.

[nowhereman]

RC says Wood will miss at least 5 games

RC says West will return to bball activities next week

per EKS