Undercutting NBA players - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dirno2000 · 04-03-2007, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

To me, this is most reminiscent of the NFL rule where the DB and the WR get tangled feet and there is no foul called. The thinking seems to be: If the WR can't get enough separation from the DB, he doesn't deserve a foul call.

Think about how many jump shots are taken in this league. Think about how many result in feet under feet. Only the most closely contested ones. The simple solution, in both football and basketball? Create more separation.

Incidental contact is going to happen, when you get this many pro athletes on this smal a court. We love the big hard physical foul in the lane, don't we? Well, this is the defenseman's equivalent.

If it were called a foul, would you still complain about the turned ankle?

I don’t think that interference rule is as cut and dry as your making it seem. I see interference calls all the time when a CB is trailing a WR and "accidentally" trips him.

Still, I don't know if that rule applies though since the NFL has no rule of verticality. If a shooter goes up and the defender breaks his plane and makes contract with the body it's a foul every time. It should be called the same way when the he comes down.

I just think it's high schoolish to tell an all nba scorer not to shoot unless he has separation. Dirk eats guys for lunch without separation and he should be able to come down when he does it. Same with T-Mac. Sometimes I wish the NBA will tell him to stop shooting with our guys draped all over him.

shaw-xx · 04-03-2007, 12:11 AM

I don't think Marion intended to hurt Dirk but guess when a player undercuts his man, he knows what he is doing. So I take it seriously. The league should notice it. It's could be not about trying to hurt anyone, but must be about the way you play defense. Give your man enough space to land on, simple and plain.

Dirkadirkastan · 04-03-2007, 12:21 AM

There are plenty of "unintentional" fouls. It shouldn't have to be malicious to be called a foul. Defenders are very capable of keeping their feet out from under jumpshooters, just like they are capable of holding still while taking a charge. They may not mean to do otherwise, but it doesn't matter. If they screw up, it should be a foul.

Blaming the jumpshooter for not getting an open shot is absolutely ludicrous. Dirk shoots contested fadeaways every game and we all expect them to go in. It's part of his bread and butter.

Chum, this just looks like another one of those cases where you're playing devil's advocate, not because you actually hold that position, but because you just like to debate (and perhaps you get a little kick out of pissing people off).

dude1394 · 04-03-2007, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

Um... I hardly see how you have any argument then.. you're basically accusing Marion of intentionally undercutting Dirk (and using no uncertain terms either) and being a dirty defender, and you didn't watch the nationally televised game? If you ask me -- and I, for one, DID watch the game in its entirety -- both plays in question are the result of incidental contact and good defense, not incidental contact caused by unsportsmanlike defense.

No..I contend that NO player should be allowed to put his feet under the other, accidentally or deliberately. These are open jumpers, not the stuff that goes on under the basket and when driving, that stuff cannot be helped.

Quote:

Uh, I guess I'll just have to disagree with you there, as well. It's still a kid's game. It's damn fun to watch and analyze, but in the end, it's a game, for crying out loud.

Sure it's a game but watch the thing will you? There's all kinds of very,very physical stuff going on. When you see a guy swing an elbow at someones head, is that a game? Shaq looked like he could have busted dirks jaw in the finals. Just a game however.

Ninkobei · 04-03-2007, 12:27 AM

I'd almost like to see dirk fall forward one time and "accidently" land on the guy's knee. I guess thats a bit harsh, but what they are doing is no different.

Five-ofan · 04-03-2007, 12:28 AM

chum you cant be effing serious with your arguments in this thread. Did you let a grad student take over your account too???? Obviously this is a MUCH less important issue but you sound like the idiots who tell a woman she invited it after she got raped.

You got fouled so obviously you took a bad shot. what a fucking idiotic thing to say.

Five-ofan · 04-03-2007, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

I'd almost like to see dirk fall forward one time and "accidently" land on the guy's knee. I guess thats a bit harsh, but what they are doing is no different.

the dirk one footed jumper is a direct result of the haslem and posey airspace defense. They did this last year in the finals so dirk just started backing his legs up which definitely effected his shot. at some point this year hes gonna kick someone smooth in the nuts with that jumper.

chumdawg · 04-03-2007, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I don’t think that interference rule is as cut and dry as your making it seem. I see interference calls all the time when a CB is trailing a WR and "accidentally" trips him.

Still, I don't know if that rule applies though since the NFL has no rule of verticality. If a shooter goes up and the defender breaks his plane and makes contract with the body it's a foul every time. It should be called the same way when the he comes down.

I just think it's high schoolish to tell an all nba scorer not to shoot unless he has separation. Dirk eats guys for lunch without separation and he should be able to come down when he does it. Same with T-Mac. Sometimes I wish the NBA will tell him to stop shooting with our guys draped all over him.

The fact of the matter, D2K, is that Dirk took a HORRIBLE jumper there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I knew as soon as he rose up that it was a horrible shot. Did you not?

I don't really know how well this all correlates, but I know that Dirk rarely takes bad shots and also that he rarely gets feet under his feet. He took a GOD AWFUL shot there, and he got a foot under his foot. Maybe he shouldn't have taken that shot. Eh?

Really, is it any coincidence that Dirk's probably worst three of the year was met with a foot underneath him? He never should have taken that shot.

You gotta let guys play. You gotta let Marion play, in that situation. You gotta let Stack play against Barbosa.

Again, you get separation and you don't have to worry about the foul or the injury. You don't, and you do.

Five-ofan · 04-03-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The fact of the matter, D2K, is that Dirk took a HORRIBLE jumper there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I knew as soon as he rose up that it was a horrible shot. Did you not?

I don't really know how well this all correlates, but I know that Dirk rarely takes bad shots and also that he rarely gets feet under his feet. He took a GOD AWFUL shot there, and he got a foot under his foot. Maybe he shouldn't have taken that shot. Eh?

Really, is it any coincidence that Dirk's probably worst three of the year was met with a foot underneath him? He never should have taken that shot.

You gotta let guys play. You gotta let Marion play, in that situation. You gotta let Stack play against Barbosa.

Again, you get separation and you don't have to worry about the foul or the injury. You don't, and you do.

what stack did and what marion did werent even remotely the same play. if you cant see the difference just stop talking about it. stack didnt do ANYTHING to barbosa. barbosa tripped him. HUGE difference.

chumdawg · 04-03-2007, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

what stack did and what marion did werent even remotely the same play. if you cant see the difference just stop talking about it. stack didnt do ANYTHING to barbosa. barbosa tripped him. HUGE difference.

Stack closed out on him. No?

Please don't give Stack credit because his defense was so far enough away from as to not be able to get absolutely underneath him as he shot.

Five-ofan · 04-03-2007, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Stack closed out on him. No?

Please don't give Stack credit because his defense was so far enough away from as to not be able to get absolutely underneath him as he shot.

no chum, stack was different because HE got kicked by barbosa. not the other way around. Dont intentionally be a dumbass which is exactly what youre doing right now. It doesnt become you. I know you know basketball alot more than you are letting on in this thread but come on man.

dude1394 · 04-03-2007, 12:46 AM

No wonder the docs filled up your pm box.

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-03-2007, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The fact of the matter, D2K, is that Dirk took a HORRIBLE jumper there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I knew as soon as he rose up that it was a horrible shot. Did you not?

I don't really know how well this all correlates, but I know that Dirk rarely takes bad shots and also that he rarely gets feet under his feet. He took a GOD AWFUL shot there, and he got a foot under his foot. Maybe he shouldn't have taken that shot. Eh?

Really, is it any coincidence that Dirk's probably worst three of the year was met with a foot underneath him? He never should have taken that shot.

You gotta let guys play. You gotta let Marion play, in that situation. You gotta let Stack play against Barbosa.

Again, you get separation and you don't have to worry about the foul or the injury. You don't, and you do.

Chum, the point is that it doesn't matter how good a shot it is or not, players should not be allowed to put their foot under a jumpshooter. Maybe he shouldn't have taken that shot, but that's not the issue here. He should be allowed to land, even if the defense is all over him.

He has had this happen multiple times this year, whether the shots were bad or not, two Knicks players had this happen on almost completley wide open shots.

It seems to me here, like Dirkadirkastan said, you just want to play devil's advocate.

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-03-2007, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

No wonder the docs filled up your pm box.

Rep

chumdawg · 04-03-2007, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

no chum, stack was different because HE got kicked by barbosa. not the other way around. Dont intentionally be a dumbass which is exactly what youre doing right now. It doesnt become you. I know you know basketball alot more than you are letting on in this thread but come on man.

Would it help if I saw the light, and every call against the Mavs was a travesty of justice while every call that went their way was 100% right?

Screw all that. The Mavs aren't any sort of shrinking violet that needs the refs to bail them out. A lot of you on this board are whining bitches that need an injection in the nut sack.

Get your heads out of your asses and man up. You give our hard-knocking team a bad name with your pansy-ass whining and belly-moaning.

Oh, Dirk was undercut! Ohhhhh! The travesty!!! We should have won the game!!!

Gimme a break. Win the game and then tell me something. Weak-ass bastards.

dude1394 · 04-03-2007, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Would it help if I saw the light, and every call against the Mavs was a travesty of justice while every call that went their way was 100% right?

Screw all that. The Mavs aren't any sort of shrinking violet that needs the refs to bail them out. A lot of you on this board are whining bitches that need an injection in the nut sack.

Get your heads out of your asses and man up. You give our hard-knocking team a bad name with your pansy-ass whining and belly-moaning.

Oh, Dirk was undercut! Ohhhhh! The travesty!!! We should have won the game!!!

Gimme a break. Win the game and then tell me something. Weak-ass bastards.

Blow-me chum. This has nothing to do with mavs this or mavs that. What I'm talking about here is the nba doing something about players having their careers threatened.

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-03-2007, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Would it help if I saw the light, and every call against the Mavs was a travesty of justice while every call that went their way was 100% right?

Screw all that. The Mavs aren't any sort of shrinking violet that needs the refs to bail them out. A lot of you on this board are whining bitches that need an injection in the nut sack.

Get your heads out of your asses and man up. You give our hard-knocking team a bad name with your pansy-ass whining and belly-moaning.

Oh, Dirk was undercut! Ohhhhh! The travesty!!! We should have won the game!!!

Gimme a break. Win the game and then tell me something. Weak-ass bastards.

That didn't cost us the game, and I haven't read anywhere in this thread where someone said the refs cost us the game. We lost. The problem though is that Dirk, Josh, and other NBA players have been undercut, what looks to be intentionally, multiple times. I'd bet we'd still be having this conversation even if the Mavs won yesterday.

chumdawg · 04-03-2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

That didn't cost us the game, and I haven't read anywhere in this thread where someone said the refs cost us the game. We lost. The problem though is that Dirk, Josh, and other NBA players have been undercut, what looks to be intentionally, multiple times. I'd bet we'd still be having this conversation even if the Mavs won yesterday.

No, it's not. It looks to be one case where Dirk was undercut, unintentionally, on a wild-ass three-point attempt that he never should have shot, that has stoked this discussion.l

But, you aren't going to hear about how Dirk was absolutely shadowed on that jumper and should have never shot it. You aren't going to hear about how bad a shot it was. (It was.) You are just going to hear about how---waaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!--we should have gotten a foul there.

Geez, we should get a foul every time down, with these guiys keeping score.

dirno2000 · 04-03-2007, 01:13 AM

If Dirk thinks he can make it then it's a good shot. NBA stars make a living out of making "bad shots". But really that's beside the point.

Like I said, it comes down to the rule of verticality. You have the right to go up and come down in the same spot. If the defender breaks your plane it's a foul. It's that simple

dude1394 · 04-03-2007, 01:14 AM

Not in chum-bizzarro-land. Where a "bad" jumpshot means that someone can put their feet under you when you come down.

dirno2000 · 04-03-2007, 01:16 AM

BTW, this issue came in last weeks Toronto/Denver game:

The Canadian Press

March 23, 2007

(CP) - Accusations of foul play were flying back and forth after Denver's Reggie Evans knocked Chris Bosh out of the Toronto Raptors' 121-94 victory over Denver on Friday.

Bosh went down with a sprained right ankle when he landed on Evans after taking a third quarter jump shot.

Toronto's leading scorer was up and walking after the game. Bosh said his ankle wasn't badly swollen and that he would likely have returned had the game been close. He's expected to be healthy in time for Toronto's next game, a trip to Boston on Monday.

Some of the Raptors accused Evans of playing dirty by stepping under the airborne Bosh.

"If you don't jump to contest the shot there's no reason to step towards somebody," Bosh said. "That's my opinion."

Toronto coach Sam Mitchell denied his team was playing tit for tat when Raptors forward Rasho Nesterovic smacked Evans across the mouth in the fourth quarter.

"I'm not an advocate of dirty play and I don't believe in getting people back," he said. "The thing I'm cognizant of is that all these guys have got a career and if you're going to start taking cheap shots at people then you've got to think of people's liability.

"You play hard, you play clean and you play fair, but there's no place in the game for dirty tactics and cheap shots. I would never tell my guys to do anything like that."

Evans, who came away with a badly-split lip, wasn't convinced.

"For (Nesterovic) to swing like that and have his fist balled up, that let me know he did it on purpose," he said. "Look at it. The tape doesn't lie. He had his fist balled-up; he's swinging."

Nesterovic, who was called for a flagrant foul, said Evans' earlier play against Bosh was "a little bit dirty."

"There's not many guys who try to injure other guys," he said. "I don't want to believe he did it on purpose."

Nesterovic insisted he was merely going after the steal.

"I tried to get the ball a couple of times before that and I was just too late" he said. "I just caught him on his face."

Bosh acknowledged that shooters are in a vulnerable position once they leave their feet.

"There's been incidents prior to today where guys have been stepping into their space," he said. "It's dangerous for the jump shooter because he can't help it."

Asked whether Evans deserved a suspension, Bosh didn't bite.

"I have no idea, that's for the league to make their decision," he said.

Evans, who was spitting up blood in the shower after the game and still bleeding as he spoke to the media, said he was "extremely" angry.

Underneath, however, he remained philosophical.

"As long as I'm able to eat my food I'll be all right," he said.

chumdawg · 04-03-2007, 01:18 AM

Ok, Dude, then why didn't the refs call it way?

I'm all for it being called a foul, as I have said in this thread. But if the refs didn't call it that way, it's because they saw a guy closing out and playing defense.

It's not a difficult concept, and I don't know why you would see it as bizarro. It seems pretty commonplace to me.

dirno2000 · 04-03-2007, 01:22 AM

Who knows why the refs do what they do? Why didn't they call hand checking for most of the 90's when the rule was on the books?

I'm sure that they'll eventually make it a point of emphasis. I just hope that it doesn't take our title hopes getting dashed for it to happen.

dude1394 · 04-03-2007, 01:25 AM

Well mainly because they hardly ever call that a foul, because as someone posted, they don't see it.

In fact I'm not sure when I've seen it except for last year when dirk stepped on duncans foot on a drive.

As I mentioned before they don't call all of the walking that goes on under the basket for the same reason, they don't see it.

Are you somehow in bizarro-world saying that the refs decided that dirk took a bad shot and therefore deserved to have marion put his foot underhim, dirk land on it and twist his ankle? Sounds like it.

Five-ofan · 04-03-2007, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Ok, Dude, then why didn't the refs call it way?

I'm all for it being called a foul, as I have said in this thread. But if the refs didn't call it that way, it's because they saw a guy closing out and playing defense.

It's not a difficult concept, and I don't know why you would see it as bizarro. It seems pretty commonplace to me.

so the refs are perfect now and if they didnt call it it wasnt a foul???

Why do mlb refs not call strikes to the letters? Why did nfl refs allow the patriots to blatantly interfere with receivers? why did nba refs take forever to start calling handchecking?

chumdawg · 04-03-2007, 01:29 AM

Dude: Answer me one thing. Was that a good three Dirk got off there?

dude1394 · 04-03-2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Dude: Answer me one thing. Was that a good three Dirk got off there?

If he didn't make it, it wasn't a good three. How's that.

It's irrelevant chum whether it's a good, bad or great shot. The guy gets to land on the court, not someones foot that's been stuck under him.

And I've said repeatedly I didn't see the game, nor that shot. It's irrelevant to my thoughts on having people come down on others feet.

Five-ofan · 04-03-2007, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Dude: Answer me one thing. Was that a good three Dirk got off there?

yet again nowhere near as big a deal(which is still an understatement) but you sound like the dumbass that blames a girl for getting raped.

chumdawg · 04-03-2007, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

yet again nowhere near as big a deal(which is still an understatement) but you sound like the dumbass that blames a girl for getting raped.

Wow. Thanks for the drama, kid. Point is, Dirk hoisted a wild-ass shot there that he should never have hoisted. It's very reasonable, given the circumstances, that Marion would have fouled him.

Since dude1934 didn't see the play, I wonder how he feels qualified to start a thread about it.

You know my take on it: Stop whining like a bitch. The playoffs aren't for the faint of heart, so don't be.

chumdawg · 04-03-2007, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

And I've said repeatedly I didn't see the game, nor that shot.

You should probably watch the game before you start threads about it. I mean, really.

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-03-2007, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

No, it's not. It looks to be one case where Dirk was undercut, unintentionally, on a wild-ass three-point attempt that he never should have shot, that has stoked this discussion.l

But, you aren't going to hear about how Dirk was absolutely shadowed on that jumper and should have never shot it. You aren't going to hear about how bad a shot it was. (It was.) You are just going to hear about how---waaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!--we should have gotten a foul there.

Geez, we should get a foul every time down, with these guiys keeping score.

You're just continuing to make a fool of yourself, this argument that you're putting up is pathetic. Maybe Dirk shouldn't have shot it, but I repeat again, THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE HERE. Yes, it was a bad shot, ok? Let's move on to the real issue. The real issue is not how good or bad the shot was, the real issue is not whether we should have gotten a foul call on that, the issue is that it is dangerous. It has happened to Dirk MULTIPLE times this year, to Josh Howard MULTIPLE times, and to other players around the league MULTIPLE times. THAT is the issue. It's dangerous and bad for the NBA and it needs to be stopped for the safety of the players. Whether they call a foul on, suspend, or fine the player, something needs to be done.

Here's an example from this year, and why this needs to be stopped: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tdxXvkMB6gA

Now you tell me, how is that unintentional? Bowen's left foot is at least 3 feet in front of his right foot and the rest of his balance, and it just happens to be RIGHT UNDER the spot Francis is coming down on.

chumdawg · 04-03-2007, 01:49 AM

I'm going to bed now, but for those of you who are still up: please, for the love of God, take my advice:

STOP

WHINING

LIKE A BITCH.

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-03-2007, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You should probably watch the game before you start threads about it. I mean, really.

He's not starting a thread about this game, he started it because it's an issue going on in the NBA. I don't think Marion did it intentionally, he could have been more careful, but this thread is about the issue of undercutting players. It's something that's happened multiple times and to many players around the league.

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-03-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I'm going to bed now, but for those of you who are still up: please, for the love of God, take my advice:

STOP

WHINING

LIKE A BITCH.

So now it's whining to be concernced over players' safety. Thanks for the lesson.

You just have no clue. This isn't about how refs should call fouls on this and not on this and blah blah blah, it's about the safety of the players and how Stern needs to take action to help this issue. This isn't whining about refs, get a clue.

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-03-2007, 01:53 AM

It's pathetic how many good threads get ruined by chum trying to be a devil's advocate and throwing together articles full of holes without even thinking, then not even responding to most of the responses that totally dominate his pathetic arguments. It's quite a shame.

dude1394 · 04-03-2007, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You should probably watch the game before you start threads about it. I mean, really.

Blow me chum... I mean, really.

dude1394 · 04-03-2007, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I'm going to bed now, but for those of you who are still up: please, for the love of God, take my advice:

STOP

WHINING

LIKE A BITCH.

And anyway you little pussy, I was repeating what someone else (DLord) was saying about the play. I've posted repeatedly on this topic you ******* moron.

Five-ofan · 04-03-2007, 02:14 AM

whats worse chum, the whiner or the bitch who whines about others whining.

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-03-2007, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

whats worse chum, the whiner or the bitch who whines about others whining.

Or whining about other people whining, who aren't even whining.

Lor20 · 04-03-2007, 02:43 AM

In my opinion, if there is contact and a player gets hurt because of it it should be a foul- intentional or non intentional doesn't really matter. I doubt people will start to bleed spontaneously or sprain their ankle just to go to the free throw line. i actually thought the Jho situation was a worse decision. jho gets the hand in the face so hard he's bleeding for a couple minutes and gets called on the foul? that's just ridiculous.