Butler or Marion - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

grndmstr_c · 05-07-2010, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyfg7

But Salmons just seems to bring his "A" game come playoff time

Not really. Salmons' career playoff averages are 11.2 points in 28 mpg (22 games/14 starts) on 40% shooting (26% from three) with 2.7 rpg and 2 apg.

Edit: to be fair, the productivity goes up when you only consider the last two years (encompassing all his starts), but the efficiency is still unimpressive.

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

If I'm choosing between Damp+ Butler for Wade or Damp for Iggy, I'll take the former any day. If it's Damp+Butler for JJ or Damp for Iggy I feel pretty comfortable saying that I'd rather have Iggy + Butler than JJ.

I'll drink to that...

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyfg7

But call me crazy, and I'm sure I'm going to take crap for this, but doesn't JJ seem to quiet down in the playoffs?

I wonder how much of that has to do with the fact that he KNOWS his team can't hang with the big dogs? Seems like a lot of good players on mediocre teams tend to fade during the playoffs.

(not making excuses, just wondering aloud...)

bobbyfg7 · 05-07-2010, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Not really. Salmons' career playoff averages are 11.2 points in 28 mpg (22 games/14 starts) on 40% shooting (26% from three) with 2.7 rpg and 2 apg.

Edit: to be fair, the productivity goes up when you only consider the last two years (encompassing all his starts), but the efficiency is still unimpressive.

Ah, OK. Thanks for the stats. I wouldn't dare argue with facts. I guess I just saw him on his good nights with the Bulls and Bucks.

SMC0007 · 05-07-2010, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Subtract LeBron, Wade and Joe Johnson from the equation and tell me who you'd rather have at the 2...

Personally, I think if you can add Iggy (a two-way player who has missed 6 games in 6 seasons) without giving ANYTHING up, you've just gotten significantly better, especially since Butler would be playing his natural position at the 3... We'd still need an upgrade at the 5, but I think that puts us back into contention...

I must have missed why we are subtracting Wade and *Joe Johnson.

Also, one thing that Dirk has mentioned is that he opt out and sign for a lesser contract. I asked but didn't get a response in the other thread; is there a minimum that Dirk has to be paid? I mean example, could he take 1 year MLE range money and maybe that helps Bosh, Wade type player(s) to come here?

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I must have missed why we are subtracting Wade and *Joe Johnson.

Because it's obvious - not much discussion there.

(well, except for the retards who don't want Wade because he banged their mom or whatever...)

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Also, one thing that Dirk has mentioned is that he opt out and sign for a lesser contract. I asked but didn't get a response in the other thread; is there a minimum that Dirk has to be paid? I mean example, could he take 1 year MLE range money and maybe that helps Bosh, Wade type player(s) to come here?

Good question.

Anyone have an answer on that?

bobbyfg7 · 05-07-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I must have missed why we are subtracting Wade and *Joe Johnson.

Also, one thing that Dirk has mentioned is that he opt out and sign for a lesser contract. I asked but didn't get a response in the other thread; is there a minimum that Dirk has to be paid? I mean example, could he take 1 year MLE range money and maybe that helps Bosh, Wade type player(s) to come here?

Dirk qualifies for the veteran minimum but I wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen.

Here's an article by Tim MacMahon on the subject:
http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/maver...deal-help-mavs

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyfg7

Dirk qualifies for the veteran minimum but I wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen.

Here's an article by Tim MacMahon on the subject:
http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/maver...deal-help-mavs

Dirk isn't a materialist - he's often said that he already has more than enough money for a lifetime.

I doubt he takes vet minimum, but if he did we could HYPOTHETICALLY add both Wade AND Bosh (for example...)

mavsfan1000 · 05-07-2010, 12:39 PM

Tough decisions here but I like Marion starting more. The lineup I like best to start games is this.
Kidd/Beaubois
Beaubois/Terry and a few minutes for Butler here.
Marion/Butler
Nowitzki/Marion
Haywood/no idea.

SMC0007 · 05-07-2010, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Dirk isn't a materialist - he's often said that he already has more than enough money for a lifetime.

I doubt he takes vet minimum, but if he did we could HYPOTHETICALLY add both Wade AND Bosh (for example...)

Right. I mean I wouldn't put it past Dirk to sign for cheap for another year to stay with his city and have a LEGIT shot at winning before he retires and also not be locked down for another 3 years while forcing the FO to work around his salary to get him the help he wants.

mavsfan1000 · 05-07-2010, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Right. I mean I wouldn't put it past Dirk to sign for cheap for another year to stay with his city and have a LEGIT shot at winning before he retires and also not be locked down for another 3 years while forcing the FO to work around his salary to get him the help he wants.

4 years and 100 Million is hardly what I would call signing for cheap. That's what the rumors are.

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

4 years and 100 Million is hardly what I would call signing for cheap. That's what the rumors are.

What rumors? Link???

(or is this a rumor you're making up on the spot?)

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

If I'm choosing between Damp+ Butler for Wade or Damp for Iggy, I'll take the former any day. If it's Damp+Butler for JJ or Damp for Iggy I feel pretty comfortable saying that I'd rather have Iggy + Butler than JJ.

this^. if we can't get a top tier talent(bosh,bron,wade)then we shift to Dust for someone like Iggy. not ideal but not a bad consolation prize...

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

this^. if we can't get a top tier talent(bosh,bron,wade)then we shift to Dust for someone like Iggy. not ideal but not a bad consolation prize...

We can't go with Iggy because that was my idea and apparently I don't know anything about basketball.

(somebody email Cubes and tell him the deal is off - the basketball experts have spoken!)

bobbyfg7 · 05-07-2010, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

We can't go with Iggy because that was my idea and apparently I don't know anything about basketball.

(somebody email Cubes and tell him the deal is off - the basketball experts have spoken!)

UD, I think you're still being ignored but I'm curious, too.

So what rumors are you taking about Mavsfan? Do you have a link for us?

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 01:40 PM

[QUOTE=Underdog;1100356]We can't go with Iggy because that was my idea and apparently I don't know anything about basketball.

(somebody email Cubes and tell him the deal is off - the basketball experts have spoken!)[/QUOTE

Dust for Iggy is a TERRIBLE trade. you should stick to figure skating. basketball is just not your Forte

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

Dust for Iggy is a TERRIBLE trade. you should stick to figure skating. basketball is just not your Forte

True, basketball isn't a running back that plays for the Chicago Bears...

What's your suggestion for the DUST Chip, hotshot?

(and so help me god if you say LeBron, Wade or Bosh - we already have a Captain Obvious around here!)

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 01:50 PM

oh and back to the original thread topic.
Marion> Butler because of contract considerations and Marion's defensive versatility, which someone who knows a 1,000 times more about basketball than UD pointed out above.

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

True, basketball isn't a running back that plays for the Chicago Bears...

What's your suggestion for the DUST Chip, hotshot?

(and so help me god if you say LeBron, Wade or Bosh - we already have a Captain Obvious around here!)

no but Forte is a combo guard from Carolina who will be better than Tony Parker--someday... just wait.
Dust for Forte, Kedrick Brown and Joe Johnson

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

oh and back to the original thread topic.
Marion> Butler because of contract considerations and Marion's defensive versatility, which someone who knows a 1,000 times more about basketball than UD pointed out above.

Are you talking about this guy who mentioned Matrix being untradable because of his contract?

Yeah, he DOES know a hell of a lot about basketball...

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

Dust for Forte, Kedrick Brown and Joe Johnson

So we're going to trade Damp for a player from Atlanta, a player from Boston and a college hoops player?

How does that work again??? (you're the Xpert - please explain...)

KINGBEEF · 05-07-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

no but Forte is a combo guard from Carolina who will be better than Tony Parker--someday... just wait.
Dust for Forte, Kedrick Brown and Joe Johnson

I don't think Forte should be a part of anyone's equation. He's really not a good player

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

We can't go with Iggy because that was my idea and apparently I don't know anything about basketball.

(somebody email Cubes and tell him the deal is off - the basketball experts have spoken!)

we all mostly agree Dust+Roddy or Dust+Caron is too much for Joe Johnson or Iggy. we all seem to agree that we would do Dust+Caron+and picks for Bosh. would anyone here do Dust+Roddy for Bosh?

(of course we'd all include Roddy in any trade involving Wade or LeBron)

KINGBEEF · 05-07-2010, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

we all mostly agree Dust+Roddy or Dust+Caron is too much for Joe Johnson or Iggy. we all seem to agree that we would do Dust+Caron+and picks for Bosh. would anyone here do Dust+Roddy for Bosh?

(of course we'd all include Roddy in any trade involving Wade or LeBron)

i'm with Cuban on this one. Roddy's going nowhere. I really would hate to see him apart of any deal, or deals. I'm almost willing to make the JET expendable before I would make Roddy B.

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

we all mostly agree Dust+Roddy or Dust+Caron is too much for Joe Johnson or Iggy. we all seem to agree that we would do Dust+Caron+and picks for Bosh. would anyone here do Dust+Roddy for Bosh?

(of course we'd all include Roddy in any trade involving Wade or LeBron)

Why would you include Roddy?

Those teams will be lucky to get ANYTHING for LeBron, Wade and Bosh - they're each doing their old team a favor if they agree to a sign-and-trade... They can simply walk.

Give them Damp's $16mil in cap relief - it's better than nothing. You only include Butler's contract if you sign one of those guys because we'll be over the cap if you don't.

No need to add sweeteners...

(But why am I telling YOU this?? You obviously know more about hoops than I do!)

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Why would you include Roddy?

Those teams will be lucky to get ANYTHING for LeBron, Wade and Bosh - they're each doing their old team a favor if they agree to a sign-and-trade... They can simply walk.

Give them Damp's $16mil in cap relief - it's better than nothing. You only include Butler's contract if you sign one of those guys because we'll be over the cap if you don't.

No need to add sweeteners...

(But why am I telling YOU this?? You obviously know more about hoops than I do!)

it's true i know 1,000x more. but then i'm being modest even saying that

there will be other teams inquiring about those guys too. and i can't see them totally dicking their former franchises over entirely. all parties have to agree. it's in everyone's best interest to make the trade fair and equitable, relatively. so let's say Houston offers Expirings, Scola signed and traded, Budinger and a 1st. do we try and trump that?

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 02:39 PM

and isn't Damp's cap relief equivalent to a Max player walking anyway?

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

there will be other teams inquiring about those guys too. and i can't see them totally dicking their former franchises over entirely. all parties have to agree. it's in everyone's best interest to make the trade fair and equitable, relatively. so let's say Houston offers Expirings, Scola signed and traded, Budinger and a 1st. do we try and trump that?

Why the hell would Wade go to Houston - so he can get eliminated from contention when Yao goes down with another injury?

Are you telling me Ariza is a better draw than Dirk???

It's not about what the Heat want, it's about what Wade wants...

(But why am I telling YOU this?? You obviously know more about hoops than I do!)

grndmstr_c · 05-07-2010, 02:41 PM

Bosh is the guy who's value (to Dallas) I have the hardest time pegging down. There's no question in my mind that he's a better player than JJ or Iggy, for example. But what if he costs you more in talent than either of them? Is it wise to trade away a potential backcourt starter like Caron or Booby for a first-rate player like Bosh who's natural position is nonetheless the same as Dirk's, when you could land a lesser but still significant talent like Iggy without losing anyone?

Kidd (Booby)
Iggy (JET)
Caron (Marion)
Dirk (Marion)
Wood (Dirk)

vs.

Kidd (JJB)
Caron (JET)
Marion (Caron)
Dirk (Bosh)
Bosh (Wood)

or

Kidd (Booby)
Booby (JET)
Marion (?)
Dirk (Bosh)
Bosh (Wood)

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Bosh is the guy who's value (to Dallas) I have the hardest time pegging down. There's no question in my mind that he's a better player than JJ or Iggy, for example. But what if he costs you more in talent than either of them? Is it wise to trade away a potential backcourt starter like Caron or Booby for a first-rate player like Bosh who's natural position is nonetheless the same as Dirk's, when you could land a lesser but still significant talent like Iggy without losing anyone?

Obviously you don't know anything about basketball either - Mavsfan1000 and mac222b have already determined that anyone who would want Iggy is a complete retard!

Yeah, I think Bosh is easily the most useless superstar that we can attain - no need for two guys who do the same thing (one significantly better than the other, I might add) when he doesn't fill any of your current needs. He's not a center. Dirk's not a center. We need a center (and a "pure" shooting guard!)

(thank god someone who ACTUALLY has more basketball knowledge than myself is finally posting in this thread!)

sike · 05-07-2010, 02:45 PM

unless its for Wade, I'm not moving Roddy.

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Bosh is the guy who's value (to Dallas) I have the hardest time pegging down. There's no question in my mind that he's a better player than JJ or Iggy, for example. But what if he costs you more in talent than either of them? Is it wise to trade away a potential backcourt starter like Caron or Booby for a first-rate player like Bosh who's natural position is nonetheless the same as Dirk's, when you could land a lesser but still significant talent like Iggy without losing anyone?

Kidd (Booby)
Iggy (JET)
Caron (Marion)
Dirk (Marion)
Wood (Dirk)

vs.

Kidd (JJB)
Caron (JET)
Marion
Dirk (Bosh)
Bosh (Wood)

or

Kidd (Booby)
Booby (JET)
Marion (?)
Dirk (Bosh)
Bosh (Wood)

personally, i don't think Iggy or JJ will be just given away for cap relief. my question was how far do you go? i agree Bosh duplicates some of Dirk and vice versa. but he's a legit top 10 player in the league. about as good as Gasol, right? not the passer or defender Gasol is and not as good in the post but still pretty tough to stop. Top 10 talents do come available very often. we'd have to at least consider Dust&Roddy for Bosh. of course replacing what Roddy brings would be difficult too. we need almost EXACTLY his skill set. it's a conundrum.

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Obviously you don't know anything about basketball either - Mavsfan1000 and mac222b have already determined that anyone who would want Iggy is a complete retard!

Yeah, I think Bosh is easily the most useless superstar that we can attain - no need for two guys who do the same thing (one significantly better than the other, I might add) when he doesn't fill any of your current needs. He's not a center. Dirk's not a center. We need a center (and a "pure" shooting guard!)

(thank god someone who ACTUALLY has more basketball knowledge than myself is finally posting in this thread!)

disclaimer:all of my above postings regarding Iggy, Joe and/or Matt Forte and Underdog were entirely made in jest. and i will even confess to drafting (Matt)Forte 3rd overall in one of my fantasy football leagues last season

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Why the hell would Wade go to Houston - so he can get eliminated from contention when Yao goes down with another injury?

Are you telling me Ariza is a better draw than Dirk???

It's not about what the Heat want, it's about what Wade wants...

(But why am I telling YOU this?? You obviously know more about hoops than I do!)

it was just an example

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

disclaimer:all of my above postings regarding Iggy, Joe and/or Matt Forte and Underdog were entirely made in jest. and i will even confess to drafting (Matt)Forte 3rd overall in one of my fantasy football leagues last season

Dude, you really need to make a disclaimer BEFORE you incur my wrath - it's a pretty slow Friday here at the office and I just got turned down for a raise...

= tone of voice

(and I would have drafted Forte with the #1 pick last season if I had the chance - obviously fantasy football isn't my Forté!)

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

it was just an example

I'll put away my claws, but my point still stands about it being Wade's choice and not the Heat.

This is a very advantageous fact for the Mavs (even moreso if we'd gotten farther in the playoffs...)

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I'll put away my claws, but my point still stands about it being Wade's choice and not the Heat.

This is a very advantageous fact for the Mavs (even moreso if we'd gotten farther in the playoffs...)

i guess my point is the players want a sign&trade for max $. the heat/raptors etc. want something in return from the bulls/mavs/rockets etc.
the braintrust has got to decide what they'd give up for certain players

Underdog · 05-07-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

i guess my point is the players want a sign&trade for max $. the heat/raptors etc. want something in return from the bulls/mavs/rockets etc.
the braintrust has got to decide what they'd give up for certain players

They might want it, but anything they get is a gift from their departing players.

These guys could walk and they'll get nothing.

As long as we have the room to sign guys, we don't really have to give anything up - unless we'd need to trade Butler to make financial room for someone like Wade (and Butler's a pretty damn good consolation prize to go along with $16mil in cap relief, especially for a team like the Heat who is currently paying luxury tax!)

mac222b · 05-07-2010, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

They might want it, but anything they get is a gift from their departing players.

These guys could walk and they'll get nothing.

As long as we have the room to sign guys, we don't really have to give anything up - unless we'd need to trade Butler to make financial room for someone like Wade (and Butler's a pretty damn good consolation prize to go along with $16mil in cap relief, especially for a team like the Heat who is currently paying luxury tax!)

but say Wade just "walks" to the Bulls. he forfeits something like $30million right? it behooves him to work w/ the Heat. so the Heat get Deng,Taj Gibson, expirings and a 1st. Wade still has Noah, Rose, Hinrich, James Johnson,etc. as a foundation. win-win-win