Barack Obama's 20 year preacher.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

that's so absurd it's funny.

If you say so...He's been listening to it for 20 years now and thought he was greatness. Then when he gets criticized for it, it's sayonara dude. Either way...it reflects his character (or lack thereof).

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

I can't believe that you compare a person who uses violence, is responsible for killing thousands of innocent people, to a person who voices their opinion about racial inequality in america in a non-violent way.

You need to read before you respond. Either that, or you need to look up the definition of compare.

I gave an example of the absurdity of your rationale. I never compared Wright to anyone.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

If you say so...He's been listening to it for 20 years now and thought he was greatness. Then when he gets criticized for it, it's sayonara dude. Either way...it reflects his character (or lack thereof).

do you honestly think that wright wen on one of the rants every sermon that obama heard "for 20 years"?

do you honestly believe that obama should sacrifice his candidacy to "stand firm" in support of the wright rants?

no, no way. get real would ya?

it would reveal a tremendous lack of clarity and political awareness for obama to throw away the campaign just to "stand firm" with wright.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

You need to read before you respond. Either that, or you need to look up the definition of compare.

I gave an example of the absurdity of your rationale. I never compared Wright to anyone.

I didn't expect that you would do a sidestep and act like you didn't compare the two.

there is no doubt that you did, the words are clear in their meaning.

[kg_veteran]

The words were clear in their meaning, which is why I'm surprised you didn't understand them.

Your moral equivocation as it relates to Wright is downright pathetic.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

do you honestly think that wright wen on one of the rants every sermon that obama heard "for 20 years"?

Have you done any research into Wright at all? Nobody suggests that he went on a rant every single Sunday, but using Obama's own words he attended the church somewhere between 500-1000 times. If you have done any research into Wright, then you would be hard-pressed to suggest that he wasn't routinely espousing his hatred.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Have you done any research into Wright at all? Nobody suggests that he went on a rant every single Sunday, but using Obama's own words he attended the church somewhere between 500-1000 times. If you have done any research into Wright, then you would be hard-pressed to suggest that he wasn't routinely espousing his hatred.

now you establish yourself as an authority on the sermons that wright gave over 20 years.

tell us, how many of these sermons delved into politics? how many were only religious in nature? did he ever express his love instead of this "hatred" you are fond of declaring he has? how many times did he speak of racial progress? how many ties did he speak of the problems inside the black community?

frankly, you have no idea of the answers to these questions.

none.

the truth is you have no basis if knowledge, no authority to speak as if you actually know what went on in the church. or what jeremiah wright spoke of in his sermons on those sunday mornings over 20 years.

what we have is your applying the very thing, hatred, that you accuse wright of.

not very becoming.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

The words were clear in their meaning, which is why I'm surprised you didn't understand them.

Your moral equivocation as it relates to Wright is downright pathetic.

whatever. I don't need to write a thing, your post speaks for itself.

[chumdawg]

KG, what is your opinion of Obama's "A More Perfect Union" speech?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Have you done any research into Wright at all? Nobody suggests that he went on a rant every single Sunday, but using Obama's own words he attended the church somewhere between 500-1000 times. If you have done any research into Wright, then you would be hard-pressed to suggest that he wasn't routinely espousing his hatred.

I would like to check this out for myself. What sources did you find in your research to establish that Wright routinely espoused his hatred? Did you go directly to the sermons themselves? Are those aggregated somewhere online, or did you have to read hard copies?

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

do you honestly think that wright wen on one of the rants every sermon that obama heard "for 20 years"?

do you honestly believe that obama should sacrifice his candidacy to "stand firm" in support of the wright rants?

no, no way. get real would ya?

it would reveal a tremendous lack of clarity and political awareness for obama to throw away the campaign just to "stand firm" with wright.

Where I grew up, we actually believed what was taught in Church. Where I grew up, you could definitely determine what kind of person I am by visiting my Church and studying the doctrine and teachings.

Where Obama grew up, we are supposed to accept that Church is like Congressional politics?

We're supposed to assume that Wright had nothing to do with forming Obama's thoughts?

If Wright did not play a huge role in 20 years in shaping Obama's thoughts, then Obama was not a believer and the Church is a joke.

That is why the WASP (White Anglo Saxon Protestant) has a hard time with Wright and Obama acting like Wright is "just another guy in my neighborhood."

[mary]

Where I grew up, we actually believed what was taught in Church. Where I grew up, you could definitely determine what kind of person I am by visiting my Church and studying the doctrine and teachings.

When I grew up, I went to the church that most of my friends went to.

I did eventually quit, though. At some point the ministry took a turn for the wacky, and it really didn't sit well with me.

[wmbwinn]

My Church didn't turn whacky.

But, I think Wright's "Church"/Political Action Committee was always a bit Whacky...

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

Where I grew up, we actually believed what was taught in Church. Where I grew up, you could definitely determine what kind of person I am by visiting my Church and studying the doctrine and teachings.

Ummm...not sure how aware you are of this, but...Obama didn't grow up in Wright's church.

If you want to investigate the church Obama grew up in, more power to you.

Though, I would suspect that even then his views were more catholic than you yourself could even try to comprehend.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Ummm...not sure how aware you are of this, but...Obama didn't grow up in Wright's church.

If you want to investigate the church Obama grew up in, more power to you.

Though, I would suspect that even then his views were more catholic than you yourself could even try to comprehend.

No, you are right. Obama did not grow up in Wright's "Church". Obama grew up with several other influences (which if I repeat, you will once again call me a racist). He said he "converted" to Christianity through the Reverend Wright.

So, my arguement doesn't really change...
If we are to determine what kind of man Obama is as a Christian, then we must look at Wright.
The only other logical possibility is to say that Wright's "church" is really a PAC (political action committee) and that Obama just was on for the ride...
If we assume the latter, then we assume a very weak Christian role in his life?

[mary]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

My Church didn't turn whacky.

If you always believed what was taught, how would you know?

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by mary

If you always believed what was taught, how would you know?

You are the one that said your Church turned "Whacky".

I have no comparitive experience in my life, having experienced no "whackiness" in my Church.

[mary]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

You are the one that said your Church turned "Whacky".

I have no comparitive experience in my life, having experienced no "whackiness" in my Church.

Yep, indeed it did.

I was just wondering how you would've known that your church didn't go whacky, if you always believed whatever they taught.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

If we are to determine what kind of man Obama is as a Christian, then we must look at Wright.

Take a look at yourself, man. Read what you just wrote. You said that if we are to look at a man's Christianity, we must look at another man. Your beliefs are entirely removed from the tenets of Christianity. A man isn't a Christian based on the deeds of some other man. Not at all. A man is a Christian based on his own deeds.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by mary

Yep, indeed it did.

I was just wondering how you would've known that your church didn't go whacky, if you always believed whatever they taught.

never anything presented that caused concern for anything in a "whacky" category.

Enough already. You are stalling away from the point of the thread.

We are trying to decide what influence Wright had on Obama. And, if anyone ever found the secret cache of Wright speeches for us to read, then get the link in here...

Perhaps they were all deleted to prevent us from reading about the shaping influences of Obama's Christianity?

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Take a look at yourself, man. Read what you just wrote. You said that if we are to look at a man's Christianity, we must look at another man. Your beliefs are entirely removed from the tenets of Christianity. A man isn't a Christian based on the deeds of some other man. Not at all. A man is a Christian based on his own deeds.

You are dancing.

Facts:
1)Obama converted to Christianity in the Church of the Reverend Wright.
2)A man is a Christian based on his beliefs
3)A man is a good or bad Christian based on his actions.

We are interested in the shaping influences of Obama's life.

[wmbwinn]

Chum, I just have to repeat this political satire/joke again. It just sums this up so well...

[mary]

Enough already. You are stalling away from the point of the thread.

You're the one that brought it up, and its a legitimate question.

After all, there were plenty of people at my church that weren't concerned about "whackiness" either.

[12 Tone Melodies]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

...
And the question is, "Why would Barack Obama turn to a hate-monger like Jeremiah Wright for spiritual guidance and mentorship?"

Because Wrght is more respected than Calypso Louie?

http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/far...mo_code=6F79-1

Obama-Farrakhan Ties Are Close, Ex-Farrakhan Aide Says
Saturday, November 1, 2008 2:59 PM

By: Kenneth R. Timmerman

A former top deputy to Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan tells Newsmax that Barack Obama’s ties to the black nationalist movement in Chicago run deep, and that for many years the two men have had “an open line between them” to discuss policy and strategy, either directly or through intermediaries.

“Remember that for years, if you were a politician in Chicago, you had to have some type of relationship with Louis Farrakhan. You had to. If you didn’t, you would be ostracized out of black Chicago,” said Dr. Vibert White Jr., who spent most of his adult life as a member and ultimately top officer of the Nation of Islam.

White broke with the group in 1995 and is now a professor of African-American history at the University of Central Florida in Orlando.

White said Obama was “part of the Chicago scene” where Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. and radicals would go to each other’s events and support each other’s causes.

“Even though Chicago is the third-largest city in the country, within the black community, the political and militant nationalist community is very small. So it wouldn’t be uncommon for [Obama and Farrakhan] to show up at events together, or at least be there and communicate with each other,” White told Newsmax.

The Anti-Defamation League has denounced Farrakhan and his Nation of Islam as a “hate group.”

Farrakhan has called Jews “bloodsuckers,” “satanic” and accused them of running the slave trade. He has labeled gays as “degenerates.” In a 2006 speech, the ADL again condemned Farrakhan when he said: “These false Jews promote the filth of Hollywood that is seeding the American people and the people of the world and bringing you down in moral strength. … It's the wicked Jews the false Jews that are promoting lesbianism, homosexuality. It's wicked Jews, false Jews that make it a crime for you to preach the word of God, then they call you homophobic!"

Obama was careful to “denounce” Farrakhan’s comments – but not the man -- during the Democratic primary season earlier this year, but only after Hillary Clinton called him out for benefiting from Farrakhan’s support.

Farrakhan endorsed Obama in a videotaped speech to his followers at Mosque Miryam in Chicago in February. “You are the instruments that God is gonna use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack has captured the youth,” Farrakhan said.

He told the crowd that Obama was the new “messiah.” See Video: Farrakhan Endorses Obama, Calls Him Messiah.

Once the news media and the Clinton campaign got hold of those comments from Farrakhan, demands mounted from all sides that Obama “renounce” Farrakhan.

But as he has done repeatedly throughout this campaign, Obama was careful to parse his words.

“You know, I have been very clear in my denunciation of Minister Farrakhan's anti-Semitic comments,” he said during one appearance on “Meet the Press.” “I think that they are unacceptable and reprehensible.”

Obama hastened to point out that Farrakhan had been praising him as “an African-American who seems to be bringing the country together. I obviously can't censor him, but it is not support that I sought. And we’re not doing anything, I assure you, formally or informally with Minister Farrakhan.”

But Obama, once again, was less than candid.

In 1995, according to a profile of Obama that appeared in the Chicago Reader newspaper, Obama “took time off from attending campaign coffees to attend October’s Million Man March in Washington, D.C.”

At the time, Obama was running for the Illinois Senate from Chicago’s South Side, a seat he won after getting surrogates to challenge the signatures on nominating petitions for his chief rival, the incumbent Alice Palmer.

The march, which fell far short of attracting the million men it advertised, was organized by Farrakhan and by Obama’s then-pastor, the anti-white black nationalist Wright.

Obama spoke at length with the Chicago Reader upon his return from the Million Man March. “What I saw was a powerful demonstration of an impulse and need for African-American men to come together to recognize each other and affirm our rightful place in the society," he said.

“These are mean, cruel times, exemplified by a ‘lock ’em up, take no prisoners’ mentality that dominates the Republican-led Congress,” Obama said.

“Historically, African-Americans have turned inward and towards black nationalism whenever they have a sense, as we do now, that the mainstream has rebuffed us, and that white Americans couldn't care less about the profound problems African-Americans are facing."

“Black nationalism” is a current of thought and political action in the African-American community that has been championed by the likes of Farrakhan, Wright, Malcolm X, the Black Panthers and Khalid al-Mansour. Obama discussed his attraction to black nationalism at length in his 1995 memoir “Dreams of My Father.”

Obama further parsed his words in a Feb. 25, 2008, presentation to a Jewish community meeting in Cleveland, Ohio, where he insisted that Wright “does not have a close relationship with Louis Farrakhan.”

And yet, just months earlier, Wright’s Trumpet magazine gave Farrakhan its Lifetime Achievement Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award, saying that Farrakhan “truly epitomized greatness.”

That award was the fruit of a long and deep relationship between the two men, White told Newsmax. In 1984, Wright accompanied Farrakhan on his much-criticized trip to meet Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, at a time when Gadhafi was considered an enemy of the United States.

Wright also accompanied Farrakhan and Jackson to Syria in 1986, where they successfully negotiated with Syrian strongman for the release of downed American pilot Robert O. Goodman.

Obama’s Speaking Style

In addition to the ideological affinity Obama expressed for the black nationalist movement, White believes that Obama owes much of his success as a public orator to speaking techniques that Farrakhan developed over the years, and exploited for years to great success.

“If you listen to the rhetoric and you take away Obama’s political jargon, you hear a religious tenor to it that is very much Nation of Islam-like. I don’t know if anyone has ever touched on it, but Obama’s speaking style is very Malcolm-like, very Farrakhan-like,” White said.

Any American who has listened to early radio or television interviews of Obama can hear how dramatically Obama’s speaking style has changed since he became a United States senator.

In clips dating from 2001 and even early 2004, Obama speaks haltingly and in long, rambling sentences packed with legalese and dense pseudo-academic rhetoric. But not today.

“As a former minister of the Nation of Islam, I know how they speak,” White told Newsmax. “I don’t know who was training Obama. But that style is not a ministerial style like in the Christian church. It’s a Nation of Islam style.”

White began in the late 1970s as a foot soldier in the Fruit of Islam, the military branch of Farrakhan’s Black Muslim group, then rose to become a minister of the Nation of Islam and a top deputy to Farrakhan himself.

Known initially as Brother Vibert L.X., and later as Minister V.L. Muhammad, he parted ways with Farrakhan not long after the Million Man March, after nearly 25 years within the organization.

White’s 2002 book “Inside the Nation of Islam” prompted death threats by Farrakhan loyalists, so he left Illinois and moved to Florida to teach at the University of Central Florida.

He told Newsmax that Obama’s remarkable speaking style, even his manner of standing at a podium to appear larger than life, is directly copied from Farrakhan.

“If the Nation of Islam can’t do anything else, it can train people how to speak. And nobody can outspeak a Muslim minister,” he said.

Earlier this year, a pro-Clinton blog run by former CIA officer Larry Johnson unearthed a 2004 photograph showing Michelle Obama and Farrakahn’s wife, Mother Khadijah Farrakhan, at an event hosted by Jackson’s Citizenship Education Foundation.

Newsmax queried Obama’s U.S. Senate office, his Chicago office and his campaign press office about his ties to Farrakhan, but did not receive a reply.

Ever since he appeared before the annual policy conference of the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee in June, Obama has attempted to convince the Jewish community that he is pro-Israel.

But his longstanding ties to Farrakhan, Wright and Palestinian activist Rashid Khalidi, among others, have disturbed many Jewish community leaders.

Sen. John McCain publicly chastised The Los Angeles Times on Thursday for not releasing a videotape the newspaper said it possessed of a 2003 dinner for Khalidi, where Obama reportedly accused Israel of carrying out a “genocide” against the Palestinians.

© 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by mary

You're the one that brought it up, and its a legitimate question.

After all, there were plenty of people at my church that weren't concerned about "whackiness" either.

The legitimate question is:
1)Did Obama believe the Reverend Wright and to what extent did he believe and to what extent did his teachings shape Obama?
2)Or did Obama just "ride" in the Church as a way into African American politics with the man Wright having no real influence on his thoughts or ideals?

My religious views are not important to the thread.
If you want to read them they have been posted in other places in the past. I'm not going to dig them back out for you.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

You are dancing.

Facts:
1)Obama converted to Christianity in the Church of the Reverend Wright.
2)A man is a Christian based on his beliefs
3)A man is a good or bad Christian based on his actions.

We are interested in the shaping influences of Obama's life.

We are? You may be. I, for my part, am not at all interested in Obama's conversion to Christianity. For that matter, I couldn't care one bit less if he is a Christian or if he is not. In fact, I tend to suspect Christians--hold them at arm's length. You never know what they are tryng to get at.

You were saying that we are interested in the shaping influences of Obama's life. Well, so far it seems to be going your way. He seems to be a good Christian boy. What is your gripe?

[mary]

My religious views are not important to the thread.
If you want to read them they have been posted in other places in the past. I'm not going to dig them back out for you.

I can't say I'm terribly interested in your religious views. I don't mean that as a personal slight, I just agree that its not relevant to the thread.

But you said, " Where I grew up, we actually believed what was taught in Church."

And then I said that when I grew up, I quit my church because it turned whacky.

And then you said. "My Church didn't turn whacky."....which I found to be a pretty interesting claim, given your first statement.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by mary

And then you said. "My Church didn't turn whacky."....which I found to be a pretty interesting claim, given your first statement.

Of course it's an interesting claim. Every church turns wacky--or at least, the churches that would purport to know what is wrong and what is right.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by mary

I can't say I'm terribly interested in your religious views. I don't mean that as a personal slight, I just agree that its not relevant to the thread.

But you said, " Where I grew up, we actually believed what was taught in Church."

And then I said that when I grew up, I quit my church because it turned whacky.

And then you said. "My Church didn't turn whacky."....which I found to be a pretty interesting claim, given your first statement.

I really cannot fathom your point. If I said that I believed what was taught in church and then said it was "whacky", then you would have a point. But, the opposite is true so you have no point that I can determine.

And, as we now both agree that it is absolutely irrelevant to the thread, I'll drop it.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

We are? You may be. I, for my part, am not at all interested in Obama's conversion to Christianity. For that matter, I couldn't care one bit less if he is a Christian or if he is not. In fact, I tend to suspect Christians--hold them at arm's length. You never know what they are tryng to get at.

You were saying that we are interested in the shaping influences of Obama's life. Well, so far it seems to be going your way. He seems to be a good Christian boy. What is your gripe?

1)If Obama's version of Christianity mirrors that which Reverend Wright taught him, then we have reason to be concerned.
2)If Obama was not converted to Reverend Wright's version of Christianity, then what does he believe? Do we dig through the Farrakhan connection or the mosques of his childhood to find formative forces?
3)If Obama distances himself from the childhood mosques, Farrakhan, and Wright, then who is he?

Where did you get the idea that I thought Obama was a "good Christian boy"?

He walked away from his only known Christian attachment (Wright).

What people want to know is simple. What in the heck does this man believe after going through a life that included an Islamic childhood, a hate mongering "Christian" preacher, and Farrakhan associations in Chicago?

Who is he in his heart of hearts?

I'm not interested in a religious debate. I just want to know what the man believes after all of that.

And, I don't believe what he says about it because it all seems politically necessary for him to run away from those influences.

[wmbwinn]

Mary and Chum- maybe if I grew up in a church that was politically and racially motivated, I also would agree with you that "all churches become Whacky" eventually.

But, I did not grow up with race or politics in church. neither was relevant to the brand of Christianity I grew up with.

[chumdawg]

Sounds like he's a Muslim.

That doesn't bother me. Does it bother you?

I remember reading about Al Smith in the 1920's. They wouldn't let him in because he was a Catholic, god-forbid. It wasn't until Kennedy that a Catholic attained the high office.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

But, I did not grow up with race or politics in church. neither was relevant to the brand of Christianity I grew up with.

I bet you had just a whole lot of good, God-fearing, white people there worshiping God along with you. Right?

[fluid.forty.one]

– December 2007: “Hillary ain’t never been called a n***8r.

well, I should hope not!

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

What people want to know is simple. What in the heck does this man believe after going through a life that included an Islamic childhood, a hate mongering "Christian" preacher, and Farrakhan associations in Chicago?

Who is he in his heart of hearts?

I'm not interested in a religious debate. I just want to know what the man believes after all of that

Oh, he is a very scary man. You should be very afraid. Of course, nothing to do with religion. But if you aren't Muslim, the chances are that he will actually burn you atop a non-Muslim bonfire.

I'm not kidding. You will probably actually be burned alive.

I want to do something to help you, but you seem pretty insistent on helping yourself.

[mary]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

I really cannot fathom your point. If I said that I believed what was taught in church and then said it was "whacky", then you would have a point. But, the opposite is true so you have no point that I can determine.

And, as we now both agree that it is absolutely irrelevant to the thread, I'll drop it.

Sorry, I really could've done a better job explaining myself. Again, its not your religion that's I'm interested in - its your train of thought in this thread.

Here's a post.

Where I grew up, we actually believed what was taught in Church. Where I grew up, you could definitely determine what kind of person I am by visiting my Church and studying the doctrine and teachings.

Where Obama grew up, we are supposed to accept that Church is like Congressional politics?

We're supposed to assume that Wright had nothing to do with forming Obama's thoughts?

If Wright did not play a huge role in 20 years in shaping Obama's thoughts, then Obama was not a believer and the Church is a joke.

That is why the WASP (White Anglo Saxon Protestant) has a hard time with Wright and Obama acting like Wright is "just another guy in my neighborhood."

The idea behind this seems to be that Wright's thoughts = Obama's thoughts - at least that is what the Republican party wants us to believe and has strongly implied. You find it hard to believe that Wright had nothing to do with "forming Obama's thoughts"......apparently you believe people who attend church indiscriminantly allow their thoughts to be formed by others. You reinforce this idea by pointing out that "Where I grew up, we actually believed what was taught in Church." So in other words if you believed what was being taught in church, then it must be that others also believe what is being taught in thier church as well.

Obama MUST'VE believed in all of his church's ideology, because we all know that attending church requires that independent thinking be checked at the door. Heck, you can even find out what kind of people the congregation are just by studying the teachings of the church. I don't really believe this, and I never really have. Obviously there are those that buy into the sheep mentality. And those who find it absurd that a man could attend a church for twenty years and NOT have ideological differences with his pastors, are the same ones that would probably never have the slightest clue IF and WHEN their own church ever turned whacky.

[Mavdog]

just saw an ad that had a recording of jeremiah wright sayng stuff, and told me that a vote for obama was basically a vote for what wright believes.

all I can say is it speaks more about who is runing the ad than it says about barack obama....

I mean if all the mccain camp has is a scare tactic of "you don't want that guy, you should vote for me" in their bag, that bag is empty.

void of substance, lacking in credibility.

[Murphy3]

baby arm

[rabbitproof]

ok, fess up. whose car is this?

[Flacolaco]

They should give some of those stickers to someone who didn't have the same opportunities to buy bumper stickers as they did.

(Is there anything trashier than the bumper sticker?)