Handling Tim Duncan - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Dtownsfinest · 05-08-2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

So, what are you saying, Duncan didn't receive obligitory special treatment from the refs?

No, he did. What i'm saying is he sold contact as well. What Dirk did is settle for jumpers against a smaller defender. You can't do that and expect to get a foul from these refs. I've already read this book last post season against the Rockets. You can say Duncan is getting special treatment from Duncan or Dirk is getting screwed by the refs all you want but the fact is if Dirk is relying on his jumper against Bowen don't expect these refs to call the foul. Bowen has too much respect in this league from officials. If Dirk is in the paint getting contact and not getting foul calls than i'll hop on the bandwaggon. But as of right now i'm not gonna use that as a cop out for Dirk. I don't recall too many guys getting free throws from jumpshots yesterday. That tells you something. That's something Dirk was accustom to getting in the regular season. A lot of them resulted in and 1 shots. It gets a little dirty in the playoffs.

jleefilled · 05-08-2006, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

No, he did. What i'm saying is he sold contact as well. What Dirk did is settle for jumpers against a smaller defender. You can't do that and expect to get a foul from these refs. I've already read this book last post season against the Rockets. You can say Duncan is getting special treatment from Duncan or Dirk is getting screwed by the refs all you want but the fact is if Dirk is relying on his jumper against Bowen don't expect these refs to call the foul. Bowen has too much respect in this league from officials. If Dirk is in the paint getting contact and not getting foul calls than i'll hop on the bandwaggon. But as of right now i'm not gonna use that as a cop out for Dirk. I don't recall too many guys getting free throws from jumpshots yesterday. That tells you something. That's something Dirk was accustom to getting in the regular season. A lot of them resulted in and 1 shots. It gets a little dirty in the playoffs.

I see what you're saying. I just needed some clarification. I don't think Dirk was nearly aggressive enough in the second half, but when he did go to the rim -- at least, on one occasion -- he got smacked around pretty good without a call. I'm not sure Dirk will get any kind of respect from the crew that worked yesterday's game.

Murphy3 · 05-08-2006, 08:20 PM

Well, perhaps Dirk could guard duncan some when Damp's not in the game..but the key to guarding Duncan is to have Damp on him as often as possible.

Jacktruth, as for what the Mavs need to do with Dirk offensively. Well, a few things:

1. Move Dirk's primary offensive set from time to time. The past several games against the Spurs, all we've seen is Dirk receiving the past almost exclusively 18 feet from the bucket near the FT line. But because of Dirk's success as of late against Bowen, the Spurs have decided to run a double at him..usually Duncan. So, move Dirk around. That's the first thing you can do. Here's a thought. How about putting Dirk down low a time or two? The double team will still come, but if it does come from Duncan, you might have a few more opportunities for Dirk ot dish it easily to someone close to the rim with good position.

2. Make the Spurs pay for doubling Dirk. This is where it hurts not having many outside shooters on the team. Plus, it hurts that the Mavs don't have just a ton of guys that move to the bucket well without the ball. But, you do have plenty of guys that can take the first second pass after the double and attack the rim. If Dirk's doubled, good passing should result in an open jumper or someone getting a good first step on the way to the rim.

3. Run Dirk off of some screens. Run him from one side of the court along the baseline back up to 10-15 feet from the bucket off of a screen. Make it more difficult for Bowen to stay with him especially after the screen. This could result in an open look or perhaps a mismatch... and then, yeah, probably another double team.

The bottom line is this. If the Spurs are going to use their two best defenders on Dirk when he gets the ball, someone else has to have a serious advantage. This might be a series where Dirk can't be the guy that scores 30+ points per game offensively simply because the Spurs will sell out to make sure that he doesn't. Why would they do this? They do not believe that the Mavs can play intelligent enough basketball to make them pay. They don't think that if slow down Dirk that Howard, Terry, and company will make them pay.

You can do whatever you want with Dirk. I mentioned just a few things you can do to try and least change things up. But the bottom line is this. If they are going to double Dirk, you have to get the ball to Dirk and force them to double and then someone else has to step up and take advantage of the situation that is created.

I don't care who you are, but if you're going to face a hard double from your a very good defensive team's best two defenders, you are going to be slowed down offensively. But, if the Mavs are truly more than a one man show, the Mavs will make them pay. Dirk has to make intelligent decisions with the ball. But, his teammates have got to show that they will put the ball in the bucket a good percentage of the time once the advantage is in their favor.

If none of that works, you'll probably see the Mavs go small at times with KVH on the court alongside Dirk.

Murphy3 · 05-08-2006, 08:22 PM

I don't think Duncan sold the contact. He was simply making his normal move. And yeah, it involves a little contact into the defender. But, I don't think he was trying to draw a foul. He simply making a move to the bucket. Most of the contact was usually something that would be allowed... but not last game with Duncan.

Dtownsfinest · 05-08-2006, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

I see what you're saying. I just needed some clarification. I don't think Dirk was nearly aggressive enough in the second half, but when he did go to the rim -- at least, on one occasion -- he got smacked around pretty good without a call. I'm not sure Dirk will get any kind of respect from the crew that worked yesterday's game.

He's gotta keep going inside though. That's something I hate to see from Dirk. When he doesn't get a foul call he pulls a Ginobilli(or Parker, Duncan, Bowen you pick lol) and starts to complain to the refs or quits going into the paint and starts relying on his jumper. He's gotta keep attacking. I'm not trying to insinuate that Dirk gets the same respect from the refs as Duncan does. Duncan is lightyears ahead of Dirk in that department. But I do think Dirk is good enough to sell contacts to these refs and get a foul call. He's just gotta keep doing it. In that second half he went some possesions without a touch and that also can't happen but when he did recieve the ball he threw up garbage.

Dtownsfinest · 05-08-2006, 08:33 PM

Let me give an example using pics of what i'm referring to. I consider this selling contact to the refs and if I remember correctly Duncan got the foul on this play which IMO wasn't much of a foul but I guess they are a calling a blocking foul here:

This is not selling contact. This is relying on your jumper against a smaller defender. Dirk needs to do more of the above and less of this:

jleefilled · 05-08-2006, 08:43 PM

Nice presentation. Last year, though, Dirk did "sell" contact well throughout the regular season, but when the playoffs rolled around, all of a sudden the refs stopped giving him the benefit. I agree that Dirk needs to attack the basket more, but given the history, I can't say that I blame him that he's a bit hesitant.

Murphy3 · 05-08-2006, 08:46 PM

It's going to be near impossible for Dirk to attack the bucket if he's doubled.

And no, I don't see the Duncan pic as (selling) contact. I see it as him making a strong move to the bucket.

Dtownsfinest · 05-08-2006, 08:47 PM

Yea and while I don't known Dirk's exact reasoning for not going into the hole i'd be willing to guess that it has to do with him not getting foul calls consistently when going into the hole. But i'd rather see him miss a layup getting fouled than watch him settle for a mid ranger. Dirk had this problem fixed. He scorched both Marion and Bowen back to back when their respective teams tried to play a smaller guy on him. Now its like he's back to phase 1. Let's go back to the Dirk who lit up Marion and Bowen in the regular season. I must admit though I was shocked at how much they let Bowen get away with yesterday. He definately has respect from these refs but they were letting him play Dirk as physical as anyone i've ever seen.

Dtownsfinest · 05-08-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

It's going to be near impossible for Dirk to attack the bucket if he's doubled.

And no, I don't see the Duncan pic as (selling) contact. I see it as him making a strong move to the bucket.

He's leaning into Dampier on the play. I consider that selling contact. He did it numerous times yesterday. That foul is not even called if Duncan does a hook shot or settles for a jumper. Dampier is straight up. Going into Dampier led to the foul being called. And you're right. If Dirk's doubled I don't expect him to drive to the hole. I do expect him to pass out of the double teams faster and JET to hit his open shots that Dirk gives him. I just realized the Mavs had 8 assists all of last game. Spurs didn't do much better with 11.

Murphy3 · 05-08-2006, 09:02 PM

There's a big difference between scorching Marion or Bowen than scorching Bowen AND Duncan.

Dtownsfinest · 05-08-2006, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

There's a big difference between scorching Marion or Bowen than scorching Bowen AND Duncan.

I can't really debate this since I only saw the game once and haven't seen any replays but Duncan rarely got on Dirk. They threw the double team at Dirk some in the 2nd and 3rd but I don't recall him being doubled any in the 4th quarter. They just let Bowen go head up with him.

Locked_Up_Tonight · 05-08-2006, 09:47 PM

Quote:

They threw the double team at Dirk some in the 2nd and 3rd but I don't recall him being doubled any in the 4th quarter.

Then how do you explain Manu coming and stealing the ball late in the game?

Dirk was double quite often. It was just subtle and not from the same guys everytime.

Dtownsfinest · 05-08-2006, 09:51 PM

Which play are you referring to? Didn't Ginobilli come from behind in rip Dirk on that play? The play you are referring to has slipped my memory at the moment.

Locked_Up_Tonight · 05-08-2006, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Which play are you referring to? Didn't Ginobilli come from behind in rip Dirk on that play? The play you are referring to has slipped my memory at the moment.

Dirk was on the left block with Bowen. He was trying to back him down. Manu came over with a double from behind and stole the ball. Howard and Dirk raced back to prevent the easy layup.

Dtownsfinest · 05-08-2006, 10:00 PM

I'll have to watch the game again in the 4th. I somewhat recall Dirk and Josh getting back but I don't recall what happened before then. I'm sure you're right.

TripleDipping · 05-09-2006, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight

Dirk was on the left block with Bowen. He was trying to back him down. Manu came over with a double from behind and stole the ball. Howard and Dirk raced back to prevent the easy layup.

I remember the play. Was Dirk even in the paint when he caught the ball? My point is he is too far away from the basket to start backing Bowen down.

sixeightmkw · 05-09-2006, 09:18 AM

they need to have Dirk running the baseline and setting pick after pick, have Jho set the first then Damp and let Dirk get the ball around the block or at least close to it. This 25 ft away from the basket stuff has to stop.

Five-ofan · 05-09-2006, 10:19 AM

4/5 pick and roll. 4/5 pick and roll. Honestly i would rather see the mavs treat dirk like Rip hamilton in this series then a try to make him be a post player. Have him run off a bunch of screens. Considering what bowen is getting away with thats about all you can do.

sixeightmkw · 05-09-2006, 10:22 AM

I think they need to switch it up alot the rest of the series. They need to run him to the block a few times off the opposite baseline, let him do his little runner in the lane. Then run him off some high picks. This might make Bowen honest. Instead of playing him so high all the time, he might have to play off just a bit.

dude1394 · 05-09-2006, 11:36 AM

I'd like to see them meet him a heck of a lot further from the basket than they do. He can shoot the banker (put him 2 feet to the left and he can't make it) all day long. Just pick him up at the ft line and make it difficult to get position. That's about it.

dark21horse · 05-09-2006, 11:48 AM

Damp doesnt have the foot speed to guard Timmy that far out. I dont think there is alot Damp can do against Timmy. The best thing the Mavs can do against him is double team him and make sure they rotate out of it fast enough to cover the shooters.

dude1394 · 05-09-2006, 11:49 AM

I disagree about the foot speed. And certainly Diop has the foot speed.

It's all about meeting him earlier imo.

EDIT: Timmah certainly isn't faster of foot than gasol and that was the tactic with him.

dark21horse · 05-09-2006, 12:00 PM

Timmy has better footspeed than most. He doesn't have to have Pau Gasol type footspeed to get past Damp and Diop which what he proved in game 1. It's too much to ask of most big men to guard Tim one on one. A double team will be needed by the mavs if they want to slow him.

dude1394 · 05-09-2006, 12:28 PM

So what is it? Does damp have the footspeed to keep up with Timmah or Gasol?

Agreed he needs some double-teams thrown at him, but I'd just as soon meet him at the ft line and contest him getting low in the post. Then double him from different angles.

Diop in particular has a hard time keeping guys out of the post.. I might double with him and then not with damp/dj as much.

dark21horse · 05-09-2006, 01:10 PM

The best case scenario is to play Tim straight up. That way, you dont have to worry about rotating to an uncovered man. If you cannot play him straight up you have to double team him. I have heard some schools of thought about letting him get his and keeping everybody else in check. That's good....if it works. If it doesn't work, then you have to double tim and rotate to the uncovered man, get a hand in his face and try to make him shoot a lower percentage shot. IMO