Goodbye playoffs, Pacers

[Murphy3]

Wallace should be suspended according to how many games other players have been suspended in the past for pushing another player.

[SeriousSummer]

Wallace shouldn't have gotten more than 2 games. Still, I don't have a real problem with the longer suspension. Friday began a new day in the NBA and I think any incident from now on is likely to get comparably long suspensions.

Now we just need the referees to cut back on the contact that they are allowing, then we might begin seeing the beautiful game again.

[SeriousSummer]

Wallace shouldn't have gotten more than 2 games. Still, I don't have a real problem with the longer suspension. Friday began a new day in the NBA and I think any incident from now on is likely to get comparably long suspensions.

Now we just need the referees to cut back on the contact that they are allowing, then we might begin seeing the beautiful game again.

Edit: Well, I guess if it's worth saying once, then it's worth saying twice.

[grndmstr_c]

JO got 25 because he was close to getting 25 years for manslaughter. That dude he hit was NO threat to anybody.

Exactly.

Those are insane suspensions. For the year? Jackson get's 30 games? Shouldn't that be reversed? Ben Wallace 6? Looks like the league is basically saying we are on the side of the fans on this one and believe it's okay to jump on the court and hit an NBA player just as long as they don't hit back.

I fail to see how anyone could confuse punishing the players for their stupidity as condoning the fans' actions.

As for Wallace, I think it's fair. It may be on the high side for what he did specifically, but when you're assesing penalties for things of this sort I don't think you can overlook the fact that if any one player involved in the escalation of hositilities (which Wallace most certainly was) had showed a bit more common sense and restraint the incident with the fans could have been avoided. As such, any player involved in the escalation of hostilities should be held responsible for the extent of the crisis, such that for events of this magnitude everyone who was complicit in pushing the situation over the edge should receive the severest punishment that could reasonably be assigned for their specific transgressions.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Does anyone really think that Artest cares about missing the season? Maybe in the back his mind this is a blessing in disguise. Rap away, Ron. Rap Away.

[Lvubun1]

- Wallace's suspension should've been longer, if not just for the simple fact, that he not only shoved Artest, after the fact he threw a towel at him, he doesn't react to that, none of this would've happened

- While they did deserve to be punished, this sets a bad presidence. Pretty much tells the fans my ticket gives me a right to be a asshole and their isn't much anybody can do about it. Alot of NBA players came out and said they would've done the same thing(and in my opinion their opinion holds alot more weight then ours) so the next time a rival comes to town lets throw something at him and hope he comes attacks us and is out for the season. Worse case? The player doesn't attack and I get kicked out of the game and fined 50 bucks. Luckly most fans aren't as trash as Detroit fan but I will predict some idiot souped up on liquid courage will try a similar stunt in hopes that he can provoke a player.

- The guy O'neal hit was a threat. That guy and his friend we two of the people who were throwing stuff and swinging their fist, his friend just got done walking up to Artest with his fist clenched. Bottom line, they were on the court, if they didn't wanna get popped they shouldn't have be on their. Its easy to sit here and say he wasn't a threat, but if you were getting attacked left and right by a angry drunken mob, you don't have time to think to yourself "Is he a threat?". He was on the court, I doubt he was on their to ask for autographs. That court is a NBA player's workplace, think of it as a office. If your outside your office and somebody attacks you, then you enter your office 5 minutes later and that same person in their, is he a threat? I think the answer is obvious.

- As for ESPN getting rid of their NBA guys because they defended the Pacers, well that wasn't exactly a obsure opinion, actually its the majority opinion, not only among players but fans. Even a calm, collected, classy guy like Steve Kerr who you would never picture doing anything like this, says what Artest did was "understandable" and that the fans are to blame
Link and most NBA players who were asked about this agree, and wouldn't they know more about this then us? ESPN also had a poll last night on who to blame and close to 300,000 people voted and by 10% the poll said the fans were to blame. Everybody has their own opinion thats fine, I'm just pointing out those ESPN guys won't get in trouble for holding the majority opinion.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Lvubun1
- Wallace's suspension should've been longer, if not just for the simple fact, that he not only shoved Artest, after the fact he threw a towel at him, he doesn't react to that, none of this would've happened

- While they did deserve to be punished, this sets a bad presidence. Pretty much tells the fans my ticket gives me a right to be a asshole and their isn't much anybody can do about it. Alot of NBA players came out and said they would've done the same thing(and in my opinion their opinion holds alot more weight then ours) so the next time a rival comes to town lets throw something at him and hope he comes attacks us and is out for the season. Worse case? The player doesn't attack and I get kicked out of the game and fined 50 bucks. Luckly most fans aren't as trash as Detroit fan but I will predict some idiot souped up on liquid courage will try a similar stunt in hopes that he can provoke a player.

- The guy O'neal hit was a threat. That guy and his friend we two of the people who were throwing stuff and swinging their fist, his friend just got done walking up to Artest with his fist clenched. Bottom line, they were on the court, if they didn't wanna get popped they shouldn't have be on their. Its easy to sit here and say he wasn't a threat, but if you were getting attacked left and right by a angry drunken mob, you don't have time to think to yourself "Is he a threat?". He was on the court, I doubt he was on their to ask for autographs. That court is a NBA player's workplace, think of it as a office. If your outside your office and somebody attacks you, then you enter your office 5 minutes later and that same person in their, is he a threat? I think the answer is obvious.

- As for ESPN getting rid of their NBA guys because they defended the Pacers, well that wasn't exactly a obsure opinion, actually its the majority opinion, not only among players but fans. Even a calm, collected, classy guy like Steve Kerr who you would never picture doing anything like this, says what Artest did was "understandable" and that the fans are to blame
Link and most NBA players who were asked about this agree, and wouldn't they know more about this then us? ESPN also had a poll last night on who to blame and close to 300,000 people voted and by 10% the poll said the fans were to blame. Everybody has their own opinion thats fine, I'm just pointing out those ESPN guys won't get in trouble for holding the majority opinion.

Steve Kerr's wrong and your wrong.
Live with it...

[toucandave]

Yeah Luvbun, that dude was on the court, but there were players in the stands (think of it as the fan's office). It was a f'ing riot going on. A dude that wanders onto the court in all that madness, who just got smacked around by Artest, and was getting up with no obvious signs of threat, does NOT need to have a haymaker come his way. The players are mostly at fault. A dixie/solo cup splashing you with beer does not warrant physical viloence. You can say all you want that the players were protecting themselves, but that is just bullsh!t. Who has more right to defend themselves with fists, a player who gets wet with beer, or fans who are pummeled with fists from huge atheletes?

[capitalcity]

Originally posted by: toucandave
Yeah Luvbun, that dude was on the court, but there were players in the stands (think of it as the fan's office). It was a f'ing riot going on. A dude that wanders onto the court in all that madness, who just got smacked around by Artest, and was getting up with no obvious signs of threat, does NOT need to have a haymaker come his way. The players are mostly at fault. A dixie/solo cup splashing you with beer does not warrant physical viloence. You can say all you want that the players were protecting themselves, but that is just bullsh!t. Who has more right to defend themselves with fists, a player who gets wet with beer, or fans who are pummeled with fists from huge atheletes?

All previous actions aside - those two particular fans "wandered" on to the court with the specific intent to somehow get involved in the melee. Luvbun makes a good point - the guy attacked on the court rushed towards Artest with a clenched fist (ie: ready to squabble).

Murph/ Toucandave - I agree that Artest is responsible for his actions in the stands - so why is it that those two particular fans are defended for deliberately going onto the court.

WHY is it funny when the streaker who runs onto the football field gets leveled by a player its deserving but when Jermaine O'neal knocks out the hooligan who rushes the basketball court its unjustified?

[MavKikiNYC]

WHY is it funny when the streaker who runs onto the football field gets leveled by a player its deserving but when Jermaine O'neal knocks out the hooligan who rushes the basketball court its unjustified?

Good question regarding the streaker. I don't have the answer. Similalry, I find it hard to muster much sympathy for the idiots who got hit while they were out on the court. That's not to say that a jury wouldn't muster $ympathy though.

As for O'Neal, Stern's comments at his press conference this PM seemed to indicate that in the context of the riot that Artest had caused, O'Neal's punching of the fan was overaggressive and done out of anger rather than out of any legitimate sense of self-defense, and was a grossly disproportionate response to the potential threat posed.

That's what it looked like on the video too.

[grndmstr_c]

Murph/ Toucandave - I agree that Artest is responsible for his actions in the stands - so why is it that those two particular fans are defended for deliberately going onto the court.

I actually don't have a problem with Artest punching the guy who came out onto the court because the guy was clearly where he shouldn't have been and clearly physically threatening Artest. A fan on the court is asking for just as much trouble as a player in the stands. JO, on the other hand, had no business trying to take the guy's head off. The fan was already being held back and was incapable of defending himself. It was a dirty hit, and he deserves every one of the 25 games he'll be suspended. The fans who came out on the court (among others) deserve to get hit hard by johnny law for crossing a line that was considerably worse than the plastic cup that Artest went nuts over.

[FilthyFinMavs]

I fail to see how anyone could confuse punishing the players for their stupidity as condoning the fans' actions.

Let me elaborate more. Pistons fans have officially knocked the Pacers out the way of their team. They no longer have to worry about the Pacers because they are no threat. What did it cost the Pistons? Six freaking games that's all it cost. That's a nice trade-off if i'm a Pistons fan. Tell me why this situation shouldn't happen again? Tell me why another fan shouldn't do the same crap the Pistons fans did on Friday night? I can't really complain about the Wallace suspension because it was insane to think the league would suspend him more than 3 games. Even 3 games is a bit much for reacting to a hard foul but the suspensions the Pacers got were insane. I would've gave all the players 20 games a piece and that includes Wallace. I'm still trying to figure out what set Wallace off? Why did he react to a foul that wasn't even hard enough to be a flagrant foul? Was it because it was Artest? Wallace should've also got suspended because he wouldn't leave Artest alone. He was basically provoking him to fight.

[grndmstr_c]

Pistons fans have officially knocked the Pacers out the way of their team.

I was with you up until this point. Remind me again which of the Pistons fans posessed Ron Artest and forced him against his will to charge into the stands and attack an innocent fan.

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

I was with you up until this point. Remind me again which of the Pistons fans posessed Ron Artest and forced him against his will to charge into the stands and attack an innocent fan.

The one who provoked him.

Of course Artest could have foiled their plan, if indeed that's what their plan was. But don't think that the point will be lost on other fanatics with courtside seats.

[twelli]

Are there some penalties coming for the Pistons organization? They clearly failed in protecting players and fans. It's not uncommon in European soccer that teams have to play in empty arenas if their fans through stuff at players or the referee (like AS Roma this year).

[jthig32]

Originally posted by: toucandave
JO got 25 because he was close to getting 25 years for manslaughter. That dude he hit was NO threat to anybody.

That dude he hit had just gotten up off the floor after attacking Artest. If anyone of the suspensions were lengthened because of what happened with fans on the court, then that is absurd. Once the fans are on the court, going after players, all bets are off. At that point it's men defnending themselves against other men.

[Wiley_e]

[Wiley_e]

The only problem i have with this package of punishment is that a team is severely affected by the action of some of its individual players.
The only TEAM that actally should be affected by the punishment in a way is the home team of that game because it failed to protect the visiting team from their fans.
Like what was suggested in another thread - playing a couple of home games (at least one) in an emty arena like it is done in europe if rowdy fans ruin a soccer game with violence towards refs, players or even foreign fans.
Of course the players involved should be suspended for a couple of games, but instead of banning them from playing for a huge number of games altogether i would suspend them for only say 5 games, but additionally i would let them play the reminder of the season without pay. Let them show their pride and their loyalty to their teams and their teammates that way. If any more incidents occur during that "trial" period - ban them for another complete year or s.th. like that.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

I was with you up until this point. Remind me again which of the Pistons fans posessed Ron Artest and forced him against his will to charge into the stands and attack an innocent fan.

The one who threw the beer at Artest.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Wiley_e
The only problem i have with this package of punishment is that a team is severely affected by the action of some of its individual players.
The only TEAM that actally should be affected by the punishment in a way is the home team of that game because it failed to protect the visiting team from their fans.
Like what was suggested in another thread - playing a couple of home games (at least one) in an emty arena like it is done in europe if rowdy fans ruin a soccer game with violence towards refs, players or even foreign fans.
Of course the players involved should be suspended for a couple of games, but instead of banning them from playing for a huge number of games altogether i would suspend them for only say 5 games, but additionally i would let them play the reminder of the season without pay. Let them show their pride and their loyalty to their teams and their teammates that way. If any more incidents occur during that "trial" period - ban them for another complete year or s.th. like that.

Exactly. Granted, the suspensions were suppose to hurt the teams involved but where is the punishment for the Pistons? They come out of this with nothing.

[grndmstr_c]

The one who threw the beer at Artest.

[img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]Brilliant retort. I rest my case.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

[img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]Brilliant retort. I rest my case.

Whatever. Once you throw a beer or step on the court of an NBA game it's fair game. You get what ever is deserved.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Wanted: Fan Who Threw First Cup
Prosecutor Says Fans, Players Could Face Criminal Charges

POSTED: 11:25 am EST November 22, 2004
UPDATED: 12:23 pm EST November 22, 2004

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- The Detroit Pistons fan suspected of throwing a beverage on Indiana Pacers' player Ron Artest, reportedly leading to Friday night's brawl, has been identified and is wanted for questioning, according to Detroit station WDIV-TV.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Video: Watch Brawl
Slideshow: Images Of Chaos
Slideshow: Players, Coaches React
Survey: Artest's Punishment?
Survey: Blame For Fight?
Discuss: Your Thoughts?
Wil's Blog: What's Next?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Police have identified the fan -- believed to have thrown the first beer at the Indiana Pacers' Ron Artest -- as John Green, of West Bloomfield, a suburb of Detroit.


Police have identified this fan -- believed to have thrown the first beer at the Indiana Pacers' Ron Artest -- as John Green, of the Detroit suburb of West Bloomfield.


John Green, of West Bloomfield, was caught on tape throwing his cup of beer, WDIV reported. The act reportedly sent Artest into a rage in the stands, where players and fans fought during the game between the Pistons and the Pacers at The Palace of Auburn Hills.

While Artest was sprawled on his back on a scorer's table, away from a scuffle on the court, Green, who was identified over the weekend as "the fan in the white hat," apparently threw the plastic cup of beer. Artest then jumped up and charged into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.

Green stepped aside and another person took the initial blow, according to reports. The tape of Friday's fight then shows the man attacking Artest from behind.

Green was expected to speak with Auburn Hills police Sunday night, but did not appear, the station reported. He is reportedly a season-ticket holder at The Palace.

"I think that's what escalated the whole situation. We're certainly wanting to interview that individual. That individual knows who he is. I suggest he should turn himself in to be questioned by the Auburn Hills Police Department," said Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca. "If he doesn't, I can assure you we will locate him."

Gorcyca said the investigation will begin with Green, who is believed to have thrown the first cup. Meanwhile, the prosecutor's office is expected to announce charges against 25 to 50 other fans who participated in the fight at The Palace.

Gorcyca said anyone who threw a cup or a punch -- including players and fans -- could face criminal charges.

"The throwing of an object and striking someone constitutes an assault," said Gorcyca.

Previous Story:
November 22, 2004: Report: Fan In White Hat May Have Sparked Brawl
Copyright 2004 by TheIndyChannel.com All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

I can now rest a happy man lol. This guy should get charged for inciting a riot.

[grndmstr_c]

Whatever. Once you throw a beer or step on the court of an NBA game it's fair game. You get what ever is deserved.

No, seriously. The elementary school defense: "he made me do it". Who would have thought such an immature take could have captured the essence of the situation so well.

Let's try an analogy. You work at Starbucks. Some guy comes in and gets an iced tea in a plastic cup. He then gets pissed off at you for [insert reason here] and throws the cup of iced tea at you despite the fact that there's a policeman sitting at a table just 10 feet away. Rather than getting the policeman's attention you climb over the counter and start hitting the guy who threw the iced tea. Do you think Starbucks is going to fire you? Do you think Starbucks is justified in firing you? Now imagine that you didn't even see who threw the iced tea and jumped over the counter and started hitting the wrong guy. Do you think Starbucks is going to fire you? Do you think they're justified in firing you? Do you think anybody's going to give a flying f*** when you try to justify your actions by saying that the guy who threw the iced tea made you do it? Me neither. It's really appaling how many adults have completely failed to mature beyond the level of an 11 year old child.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

I can now rest a happy man lol. This guy should get charged for inciting a riot.

I like this. They are getting them all (at least I hope). Yes the players shouldn't act like immature children, but neither should the fans. Good for the Oakland County DA's office.

IMO, things are happening as they should. Players are being punished, team will be punished (loss of money, and attendance), and hopefully some of the fans will be held responsible for their actions as well.

[Fidel]

Let's try an analogy. You work at Starbucks. Some guy comes in and gets an iced tea in a plastic cup. He then gets pissed off at you for [insert reason here] and throws the cup of iced tea at you despite the fact that there's a policeman sitting at a table just 10 feet away. Rather than getting the policeman's attention you climb over the counter and start hitting the guy who threw the iced tea. Do you think Starbucks is going to fire you? Do you think Starbucks is justified in firing you? Now imagine that you didn't even see who threw the iced tea and jumped over the counter and started hitting the wrong guy. Do you think Starbucks is going to fire you? Do you think they're justified in firing you? Do you think anybody's going to give a flying f*** when you try to justify your actions by saying that the guy who threw the iced tea made you do it? Me neither. It's really appaling how many adults have completely failed to mature beyond the level of an 11 year old child.

Bad analogy. It fails to take the Wallace icident into account. Wallace shoved Artest pretty god, and threw a towel after him. Adrenalin was probably running very high even before Artest was hit by the beer. Not an ideal situation to act rational. In your setting let´s say someone shoved you pretty hard allready and threw and ice cream after you and you´re pretty mad allready but you are trying to control yourself. And then this guy comes up from a completely different direction and throws a beer at you. In addition there are thousands watching your reaction live (a good part of them probabaly cheering for both the guy who shoved you and the guy who threw the beer) which only adds more pressure and tension. Do you really think you´d act rational in such a sitiuation every time? If yes then congrats to you. You are Ghandi... I know I wouldn´t.

[grndmstr_c]

Bad analogy. It fails to take the Wallace icident into account. Wallace shoved Artest pretty god, and threw a towel after him.

Fine. You can try informing your employer that the reason you flew off the hook was because not 30 seconds prior to getting doused with tea you had shoved your coworker and he had shoved you back. I'm sure that will be sufficient to save your job.

[LRB]

There is no excuse for what Ron Artest did. You could make an argument that him running to the concession stand, buying a beer and going back and throwing it at the guy who threw it at him might be justified, but I'd still say that was bunk. Artest get's paid millions not to respond to these kinds of incidents. Just like a customer service rep is paid to take all kinds of verbal abuse without responding in kind, Artest is paid to do the same with thrown beer. That's not to say that the customer who is verbally abusive to the customer service rep shouldn't be thrown out of the store by security and barred from every returning. Likewise the jerk who threw the beer should be barred from NBA arenas for life, should not be refunded his season tickets, should be prosecuted for assault, and should be sued by the Pacers and the NBA for his uncivilized and criminal actions.

Two wrongs never make a right. Both Detroit fans and Ron Artest and company were dead wrong with their unjustifiable actions. Both should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and both deserve as severe of punishments as the NBA can legally and reasonably hand out.

I also think that any fan who intentionally throws beer or other items at players, other fans, or anyone should be banned for life from all NBA arenas and should be charged with assault.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Fine. You can try informing your employer that the reason you flew off the hook was because not 30 seconds prior to getting doused with tea you had shoved your coworker and he had shoved you back. I'm sure that will be sufficient to save your job.

Still a bad anology. Basketball is a physical sport and certain actions are considered normal. While Artest foul on Wallace was hard and unnesessary and maybe deserved a "flagrant" it was still within the game. Flagrants happen all the time whether you like it or not. So all Artest did was "his job". And then he gets shoved pretty good and the player who did it continues to provoke him. Now this is not "within the game" and not part of the "normal" job. Also your anology doesn´t work because it wasn´t one of your co-workers who shoved you, but a guy from your biggest rival in the market. And the guy who threw the beer was a fan of that biggest rival and openly showed it. In your example that would mean you work at Burger King and the guy who shoved you is working for McDonalds. And the guy who threw the beer is a huge McDonalds fan. Well that doesn´t really make sense but I just wanted to show that your original analogy doesn´t work.

[Murphy3]

Players pushing players after the whistle also happens. Wallace should have gotten nothing more than what he received. The suspension is in line with the normal suspension for a shove similar to that...In fact, the suspension might be a bit on the high side.

[LRB]

Here's an analogy that will work. You're a waiter at a restaurant and you've just had a physical altercation with another waiter. First he nocked a plate of food that you were carrying to the ground by "accidentally", at least not from your perspective, bumping you. You bump him back real hard and make him spill a tray of food all over the floor. He grabs you and shoves you real hard. Others workers come in and break you up and you just lay back on one of the tables. Meanwhile two of the 3 drunks at the table whose food you just caused to be spilled on the floor throw their beers on you. You jump up and knock the crap out of the 1 drunk who still has his beer but is laughing his ass off at you. Now do you honestly think that you're going to keep your job?

The NBA is a single company. The teams are competing franchises who serve the same general customers. Like waiters who serve the same general customers but compete for tips. Wallace and Artest are coworkers, they just work for different divisions who do compete with each other, but who also share much of the profits as well.

I wouldn't keep any employee working for me who couldn't control his anger any better than Ron Artest. Infact in my company, a major fortune 250 company, that would be an automatic grounds of firing. Our employee handbook states that there is no reason at all for starting nor escalating a physical confrontation. But then again I work with mature adults and not emotionally immature adolescents.

[grndmstr_c]

Still a bad anology. Basketball is a physical sport and certain actions are considered normal. While Artest foul on Wallace was hard and unnesessary and maybe deserved a "flagrant" it was still within the game. Flagrants happen all the time whether you like it or not. So all Artest did was "his job". And then he gets shoved pretty good and the player who did it continues to provoke him. Now this is not "within the game" and not part of the "normal" job. Also your anology doesn´t work because it wasn´t one of your co-workers who shoved you, but a guy from your biggest rival in the market. And the guy who threw the beer was a fan of that biggest rival and openly showed it. In your example that would mean you work at Burger King and the guy who shoved you is working for McDonalds. And the guy who threw the beer is a huge McDonalds fan. Well that doesn´t really make sense but I just wanted to show that your original analogy doesn´t work.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you modifying the analogy to deal with your attempts to invalidate it on technicalities that have nothing to do with the main point, which is that Ron's got a freaking job, he gets paid a crapload of money to do the job, and the job description does not include running into the stands to attack the customers, especially when his employers provide him with security to deal with the morons. Do what he did in just about any other profession and you won't have a job anymore because in the adult world the "he made me do it" defense just doesn't cut it.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by: LRB
Here's an analogy that will work. You're a waiter at a restaurant and you've just had a physical altercation with another waiter. First he nocked a plate of food that you were carrying to the ground by "accidentally", at least not from your perspective, bumping you. You bump him back real hard and make him spill a tray of food all over the floor. He grabs you and shoves you real hard. Others workers come in and break you up and you just lay back on one of the tables. Meanwhile two of the 3 drunks at the table whose food you just caused to be spilled on the floor throw their beers on you. You jump up and knock the crap out of the 1 drunk who still has his beer but is laughing his ass off at you. Now do you honestly think that you're going to keep your job?

The NBA is a single company. The teams are competing franchises who serve the same general customers. Like waiters who serve the same general customers but compete for tips. Wallace and Artest are coworkers, they just work for different divisions who do compete with each other, but who also share much of the profits as well.

I wouldn't keep any employee working for me who couldn't control his anger any better than Ron Artest. Infact in my company, a major fortune 250 company, that would be an automatic grounds of firing. Our employee handbook states that there is no reason at all for starting nor escalating a physical confrontation. But then again I work with mature adults and not emotionally immature adolescents.

Sorry LRB. This is better but still doesn´t work. We are talking about a waiter and NBA players here. Easy to fire a waiter, and more importantly very easy to replace a waiter, even a good one. But Artest and O´Neal posses a very sought after skill. They are great basketball players and whichever team "owns" them can make lots of money off of them (and in addition TV stations, sports companies and so on). They are top20 worldwide in what they are doing. Very hard to fire and replace them without ruining your franchise for a long time and losing lots of profit. Ultimatly winning will be more important to most fans then moral integrity. And most Pacer fans will probably side with Artest/O´Neal anyways.

Additionaly the anology still doeasn´t work cause the waiters work for the same restaurant. Even if the NBA is a single company with franchises the incident would at least have to happen in the restaurant of your biggest rival for best franchise. You are ordered to work there that evening. You are booed the whole time. When an original member of that restaurant is doing something better then you he is cheered all the time. Basicly everyone hates you in that restaurant exept two co workers from your own restaurant who came with you that evening. That´s the setting in which the scene takes places. And the guy confronting you first is obviously not from your own restaurant. The guy throwing beer is a guest and a huge fan of the restaurant you work for that evening. That´s more like it. Still not a very good analogy though, cause the situation and atmosphere at an NBA game is completely different.


And in response to grndmstrs last post. I agree that you´d lose your job in most other professions with most exeptions probably found in the entertainment industry, cause here money is made off of stars in addition to just buisiness ideas or production capacitys. And stars are much harder to replace then average joe working as a waiter. That´s why they are probably more likely to get away with something like that, or anything else for that matter, drug use probably being a good example for the movie biz. I´m not saying this is good or right, but that´s just the way it is.

But all that wasn´t my original point anyways. My original point was that I would probably have reacted the same way Artest did, being in the "exact same situation". And that´s where you gotta be careful. Most anologys I´ve read here go like "so someone throws something at you and you go off attacking an innocent person? how childish of you". But that absolutely doesn´t describe the situation Artest was in, not even close.

he gets paid a crapload of money to do the job, and the job description does not include running into the stands to attack the customers

just saw that. Well the job description allmost certainly doesn´t include having beer thrown at you by drunken idiots either. Or being attacked on court by a drunken idiot.

[grndmstr_c]

just saw that. Well the job description allmost certainly doesn´t include having beer thrown at you by drunken idiots either. Or being attacked on court by a drunken idiot.

Nope. Which is precisely why the NBA provides security to deal with drunken idiots.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Nope. Which is precisely why the NBA provides security to deal with drunken idiots.

It's also why the NBA provides tons of seminars for Rookies especially, but players in general how to deal with exactly the type of situation that occured Friday night. If they can't deal with it, then they should retire. The same as a construction worker who can't deal with heights or a cop can't deal with crooks taking pot shots at them. Almost all professions involve some danger and some uncomfortable situations. The NBA is a long cry from being either the most dangerous or from having the poorest work conditions. I've have jobs with more risk of physical harm and tons poorer conditions without making 1/1000th of what NBA players make and I know there are much worse jobs out there. Unlike NBA players I didn't have the millions in the bank to just walk away from those jobs and never need to work again. But I never physically attacked anyone, nor did I sit there and just take crap either.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Wallace should be suspended according to how many games other players have been suspended in the past for pushing another player.

After seeing a better video of what happened (the one that I had before was kinda small) I have to strongly disagree. Wallace acted like a total punk and is very lucky he got away with just a five game suspension. Not only did he overreact after a hard foul and shoved Artest. He also continued to go after Artest and even through a towel after him. He did provoke him right until the bottle was thrown. Looking at what the Pacers got Wallace should have gotten much more then just five games. He was one of the main reasons the situation escalated.

[Fidel]

and here are two tidbits from Bill Simmons column that Max posted.

two plays led to Artest's hard foul. With 6:43 remaining, Rip Hamilton threw a cheapshot elbow into Jamaal Tinsley's back after a defensive rebound (they called a foul as the Pacers bench erupted). That could have been a flagrant since it looked like Hamilton went out of his way to belt him. And with 1:25 remaining, down by 11 points, Wallace knocked Artest into the basket support while blocking his layup -- from the camera angle, you can't tell if it's a foul or not. So if you're playing the "Why was Artest fouling Wallace with such a big lead?" card, the play wasn't much different than Wallace's block. He just got more of a piece of him...

...Wallace (6 games) -- Seems a little low. Wallace kept escalating the incident by trying to get to Artest, leading to the blue cup getting thrown from the stands. If you're making an example out of Artest, make one out of Wallace -- none of this would have happened if he didn't keep pouring gasoline on the fire.

(Intriguing note on Wallace: One of his posse members was the huge guy who attacked Fred Jones from behind. During the initial altercation, you can see the guy lurking behind Artest as Artest lies on the scorer's table, almost like he's ready to jump him. You can also see him consoling Wallace's kids after the fact.)

Well all in all good job Wallace. And good job Detroit "fans". You acted like total punks but you got all your wishes. Game called. Lots of Idiana players suspended for a long time which should help winning the east again. Why again should Wallace act different next time? The 6 game suspension is basicly rewarding him for his behaviour when compared to what the Pacers got. And the Pistons organisation (security??) and most Pistons "fans" will also get away with it.

And also, the way Wallace acted, doesn´t anyone think that that´s probably what triggered the fan to throw stuff at Artest? He probably wanted to "help out" his boy Wallace from the stands. And he probably felt very brave cause he sided with "Big Ben".

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Fidel
and here are two tidbits from Bill Simmons column that Max posted.

Well all in all good job Wallace. And good job Detroit "fans". You acted like total punks but you got all your wishes. Game called. Lots of Idiana players suspended for a long time which should help winning the east again. Why again should Wallace act different next time? The 6 game suspension is basicly rewarding him for his behaviour when compared to what the Pacers got. And the Pistons organisation (security??) and most Pistons "fans" will also get away with it.

And also, the way Wallace acted, doesn´t anyone think that that´s probably what triggered the fan to throw stuff at Artest? He probably wanted to "help out" his boy Wallace from the stands. And he probably felt very brave cause he sided with "Big Ben".

I'll have to agree with you Fidel unless some sort of penalty is laid upon the Pistons and their fans. At the minimium I think that the Pistons should be fined $10 million dollars for allowing this fiasco to escalate so far. Where the hell was security? Detroit should also lose a 1st round draft pick as well. I also think that all beer sales should be suspended for any Indiana games for the next 2 years and should be suspended at half time for the rest of the season in Detroit. Furthermore all beer sales should be raised by $2 to pay for extra security. All fans who threw objects, entered the court, or who attacked players should be banned from Piston and any other NBA games for life. Criminal charges shoudl be brought against any fans who threw items. Admitedly this is still far too mild a punishment, but it is a good start.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

No, seriously. The elementary school defense: "he made me do it". Who would have thought such an immature take could have captured the essence of the situation so well.

Let's try an analogy. You work at Starbucks. Some guy comes in and gets an iced tea in a plastic cup. He then gets pissed off at you for [insert reason here] and throws the cup of iced tea at you despite the fact that there's a policeman sitting at a table just 10 feet away. Rather than getting the policeman's attention you climb over the counter and start hitting the guy who threw the iced tea. Do you think Starbucks is going to fire you? Do you think Starbucks is justified in firing you? Now imagine that you didn't even see who threw the iced tea and jumped over the counter and started hitting the wrong guy. Do you think Starbucks is going to fire you? Do you think they're justified in firing you? Do you think anybody's going to give a flying f*** when you try to justify your actions by saying that the guy who threw the iced tea made you do it? Me neither. It's really appaling how many adults have completely failed to mature beyond the level of an 11 year old child.

Most definately Starbucks would fire you. A manager just got fired a couple of months ago from a Long John Silver for trying to hit a guy in the head with a hammer while he was being robbed. I never said what Artest did was right but if a guy throws an iced tea at me because I gave him the wrong order or if a guy throws a beer at my face while i'm on an announcers table don't think i'm just gonna sit there and take it. BTW, Artest never hit the guy he jumped on in the stands like is being reported.

[LRB]

if a guy throws an iced tea at me because I gave him the wrong order or if a guy throws a beer at my face while i'm on an announcers table don't think i'm just gonna sit there and take it.

I don't think that you have to or should just take it. However jumping the guy and beating his face in is not the appropriate response either. Calling the authorities on the jerk is not just taking it which would be the appropriate response. If someone throws beer or ice tea on you purposefully, he has assaulted you and should be arrested. However your physical well being is not in jeapordy to necesitate an overtly violent response. Getting thrown in jail will almost assuredly be worse than the whopping that you'd dish out and you don't have to worry about going to jail yourself or endangering innocents.