Knicks and Mavs are discussing.... - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Bayliss · 07-24-2003, 11:27 AM

If we trade LaFrentz for Thomas then one of 3 possibilities occur afterwards:

sign Stepania

This means you could theoritically have a starting 5 of Nash, Fin, Dirk, Thomas, and Stepania. Not a bad starting 5. You have offense with the big 3, plus Thomas can be a decent post presence. It is a great rebounding lineup. And you also have the flexibility of zone. From the bench you have Bradley, Najera, NVE/Daniels, and Howard.

sign Coleman

Starting lineup of Nash, Fin, Dirk, Thomas and Coleman. The center is by committee. Dirk can play them in spots, so can Coleman, and Thomas. You have excellent offense inside and out. You have good rebounding. And you've got pretty good post defense. Off the bench the same players as above.

sign Drobnjak

Basically you added Thomas for Raef's fat clone. Starting lineup of Nash, Fin, Dirk, Thomas, and Drobnjak. A decent rebounding team. A good offensive team. But a pretty bad defensive team.

Blonde Bomber · 07-24-2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Bayliss
If we trade LaFrentz for Thomas then one of 3 possibilities occur afterwards:

sign Stepania

This means you could theoritically have a starting 5 of Nash, Fin, Dirk, Thomas, and Stepania. Not a bad starting 5. You have offense with the big 3, plus Thomas can be a decent post presence. It is a great rebounding lineup. And you also have the flexibility of zone. From the bench you have Bradley, Najera, NVE/Daniels, and Howard.

sign Coleman

Starting lineup of Nash, Fin, Dirk, Thomas and Coleman. The center is by committee. Dirk can play them in spots, so can Coleman, and Thomas. You have excellent offense inside and out. You have good rebounding. And you've got pretty good post defense. Off the bench the same players as above.

sign Drobnjak

Basically you added Thomas for Raef's fat clone. Starting lineup of Nash, Fin, Dirk, Thomas, and Drobnjak. A decent rebounding team. A good offensive team. But a pretty bad defensive team.

I like the Coleman signing the best. I just wince thinking of any of those guys starting at center and having to go head to head with the other centers in the league.

Blonde Bomber · 07-24-2003, 11:39 AM

would this lineup compete for a championship?

if..

we make the NY trade, half the exception between S. Jackson and V. Stepania, then offer Elden Campbell the 1.5..plus don't sign any of our 4 free agents.

pg: S. Nash - Van Exel - M. Daniels
sg: M. Finley - J. Howard
sf: D. Nowitzki - S. Jackson
pf: K. Thomas - E. Najera - E. Campbell
c: V. Stepania - S. Bradley

IR: A. Johnson, TAW, C. Ward

MavKikiNYC · 07-24-2003, 11:42 AM

No.

madape · 07-24-2003, 11:45 AM

Stepania is a turd.

Bayliss · 07-24-2003, 11:47 AM

The scary thing? His rebounding average was 1 1/2 times better than Raef's in 3 minutes less a game.
If Stepania is bad... what does that say about Raef?

aexchange · 07-24-2003, 11:52 AM

somebody is going to over pay Sjax for the full MLE. theres no way he accepts half of the MLE when freakin james posey got the full MLE from memphis. elden campbell is reported to be getting a 2 yr contract from the pistons starting at around $5M a year. he wont take the $1.5

the more that i think about it, the more i like it that the mavs havent overspent on anybody. throw in the fact that the mavs may be on the verge of dumping lafrentz and esch, and i like the deal even more.

Blonde Bomber · 07-24-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
No.

me neither. Would be the best team in the East, but the West is turning into a "power" game more than a finess or run & gun and the mavs just don't have the muscle to put them in contention.

Blonde Bomber · 07-24-2003, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: aexchange
somebody is going to over pay Sjax for the full MLE. theres no way he accepts half of the MLE when freakin james posey got the full MLE from memphis. elden campbell is reported to be getting a 2 yr contract from the pistons starting at around $5M a year. he wont take the $1.5

the more that i think about it, the more i like it that the mavs havent overspent on anybody. throw in the fact that the mavs may be on the verge of dumping lafrentz and esch, and i like the deal even more.

Elden is going to get 5 mil a year? He is just stealing from the Pistons. Also agree on Jackson. He showed enough in the playoffs to warrent somebody giving him the full MLE.

Mavs_Rule2003 · 07-24-2003, 12:46 PM

why we are all talking about Shareef anyway. He is not even in the picture to be traded anywhere right now? Any source?

Ummmmm Ok · 07-24-2003, 12:58 PM

no source, but Atlanta "might" be willing to rebuild come the trade deadline and what better way than to get 13.5 million off your books?

one long blue sock · 07-24-2003, 02:30 PM

14 and 8 is a nice addition, but then again Raef almost averaged the same stats when he was with Denver. And Raef was in the West averaging those stats.

At 31 Thomas (in my opinion) is a step in the wrong direction, yes he is good now, but he won't be in 2 to 3 years. ESPN insider is ranking the Mavs 5th right now, so what is the point in trying to get older players, when you could be playing for the future.

FilthyFinMavs · 07-24-2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: one long blue sock
14 and 8 is a nice addition, but then again Raef almost averaged the same stats when he was with Denver. And Raef was in the West averaging those stats.

At 31 Thomas (in my opinion) is a step in the wrong direction, yes he is good now, but he won't be in 2 to 3 years. ESPN insider is ranking the Mavs 5th right now, so what is the point in trying to get older players, when you could be playing for the future.

Because the Mavs do not have any cap space and are a playoff contender. If you believe the Mavs can draft some talent at the 25th-29th position or if you think teams will take the Mavs older players and give the Mavs there young talent then your are sadley mistaken. Mavs are in to deep to rebuild now.

Rhylan · 07-24-2003, 02:39 PM

Thomas is under contract for '03-'04 and has a team option for '04-'05. So, we could let him go if he's too old for our likings or wants a deal too long for us. He's not the solution, anyway.. he's a nice role player, and I'd gladly take him and Ward to get rid of Raef and some dead weight.

one long blue sock · 07-24-2003, 02:47 PM

I have seen plenty of trades were younger players were traded for older players. The Mavs could trade to an Eastern team that needed to make the playoffs that year, or thought they had a chance at winning the WCF with an older more experienced player. Chicago was willing to give up some young players. I'm sure other teams with alot of young players, want a veterin on their team.

MavsFanFinley · 07-24-2003, 04:33 PM

I put the sentence in bold that I was afraid of in these rumored trade talks.

Is Raef Safe?
Mavs Downplay LaFrentz-To-NY Talk

Mike Fisher – DallasBasketball.com

The Mavs are “not highly interested'' in the Raef LaFrentz-for-Kurt Thomas concept, a source tells DallasBasketball.com. Therefore, the 2003-04 Mavs’ improvement is looking more and more like it’s going to have to come from within.

Given how the Lakers (Payton and Malone), Spurs (Horry, Turkoglu and Nesterovic), Kings (Brad Miller) and even the T’Wolves (Sprewell and Olowokandi) have hit the talent accelerator, the Mavs might be tempted do something for the sake of it. That’s what some people inside the organization think the LaFrentz proposal would be.

Word is, the Knicks would be willing to take LaFrentz – who has underachieved in Dallas – in exchange for local product Thomas and Charlie Ward. The Mavs would have to throw in a spare-change player, and Ward could either represent buy-out cap room or a backup point guard. Thomas – a former Mav with Nelson family ties – would add toughness to the Mavs, as Pacer-turned-King Miller would have. But are either of them better players, better talents, than LaFrentz?

At this moment, most Mavs people – including owner Mark Cuban – think not.

“If Raef was on the market as a free agent right now, he’d be drawing the same sort of interest as the other top guys,'' Cuban says.

Oh, and one more thing about Miller: The Mavs were once willing to give up a point guard to Indiana to get Jermaine O’Neal. They were convinced the Pacers wanted Nick Van Exel. You might be disappointed not to be getting Miller, but maybe the reason the Mavs pulled out is because they were more interested in dangling Avery Johnson (said to be a puzzle piece in Knicks talks) than they were in giving up Van Exel.

Go back to one of the original features of the Mavs’ summer plan – and one that happens to be among the few that still apply in this disappointing offseason: They wanted to acquire talent without giving up any, without disturbing the foundation of players that made them an elite club last year. Raef-for-Thomas adds defense, adds toughness, subtracts scoring, subtracts chemistry. ... and it violates that rule.

Bayliss · 07-24-2003, 04:38 PM

Can someone remind me again how Raef helped us become a 60 win team last year?

(I must have missed that one awesome 3 minutes he had in the first quarter against the Clippers.)

MavKikiNYC · 07-24-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

They wanted to acquire talent without giving up any, without disturbing the foundation of players that made them an elite club last year.

Thanks for sharing that grim find, MFF.

This is starting to look hopeless. IMO, subtracting NVE would a net gain in that it makes them less prone to play a losing style of ball. If they are wed to the notion of keeping him so that we can continue to watch that pathetic scatter-fuch offense, then I may be putting my Mav-fan stock on the market soon.

Bayliss · 07-24-2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

This is starting to look hopeless. IMO, subtracting NVE would a net gain in that it makes them less prone to play a losing style of ball. If they are wed to the notion of keeping him so that we can continue to watch that pathetic scatter-fuch offense, then I may be putting my Mav-fan stock on the market soon.

Exactly. All this talk of the "Big 4" is absurd. NVE is not part of the core. Why Nellie and Cuban believe he is part of the core is beyond me.

FilthyFinMavs · 07-24-2003, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Bayliss

Quote:

This is starting to look hopeless. IMO, subtracting NVE would a net gain in that it makes them less prone to play a losing style of ball. If they are wed to the notion of keeping him so that we can continue to watch that pathetic scatter-fuch offense, then I may be putting my Mav-fan stock on the market soon.

Exactly. All this talk of the "Big 4" is absurd. NVE is not part of the core. Why Nellie and Cuban believe he is part of the core is beyond me.

Probaly because he outplayed both Nash and Fin in the playoffs and you can argue he gave Dirk even a run for his money.

Bayliss · 07-24-2003, 05:14 PM

He may have outplayed Nash and Finley but....

Van Exel
19.5 ppg
3.4 rpg
4.1 apg
46% FG
39% 3P
70% FT

Dirk
25.3 ppg
11.5 rpg
2.2 apg
48% FG
44% 3P
91% FT

Nick wasn't even close to our playoff MVP.

But even with his playoff streak... he still is not part of the core. He's a career 40% shooter that does not make teammates better, whether it be as a point guard or our "shooting" guard.

OutletPass · 07-24-2003, 05:50 PM

NVE didn't become a different player just because he "stood tall" in the playoffs. I really doubt that GM's around the league feel he's become "extra special" solely because of the SA series...

It was a great performance, but NVE is still the same player with the same strengths and the same weaknesses. He still is an erratic shooter...and hestill can't play D. I'm not dissing The Quick here, just being realistic.

No one's going to give up the bank just to get him.

This is just a case of "gilding the lily" !!!

FilthyFinMavs · 07-24-2003, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Bayliss
He may have outplayed Nash and Finley but....

Van Exel
19.5 ppg
3.4 rpg
4.1 apg
46% FG
39% 3P
70% FT

Dirk
25.3 ppg
11.5 rpg
2.2 apg
48% FG
44% 3P
91% FT

Nick wasn't even close to our playoff MVP.

But even with his playoff streak... he still is not part of the core. He's a career 40% shooter that does not make teammates better, whether it be as a point guard or our "shooting" guard.

Well I didn't mean statistically. And as far as making someone a better player on this team who does that? Nash? Fin? Dirk? These guys are well developed players. I don't think someone can come in here and make these guys better. Now what I mean by Nick outplaying Nash and Fin I mean that by his leadership and not only that but when this team needed a bucket who made it? Who was that guy in the media who the media listened too? It wasn't Fin or Dirk. It was Nick. Nick was the guy always answering to the media. Now saying Nick wasn't close to MVP? I have to disagree with. I do not take my comment about Nick arguably being our MVP of the playoffs. He was there for everything. I think he was apart of what even got us out of the first round.

FilthyFinMavs · 07-24-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: OutletPass
NVE didn't become a different player just because he "stood tall" in the playoffs. I really doubt that GM's around the league feel he's become "extra special" solely because of the SA series...

It was a great performance, but NVE is still the same player with the same strengths and the same weaknesses. He still is an erratic shooter...and hestill can't play D. I'm not dissing The Quick here, just being realistic.

No one's going to give up the bank just to get him.

This is just a case of "gilding the lily" !!!

I agree with you on that Nick isn't a different player. However I don't think you can ignore what Nick did in the playoffs. Thats why they consider him apart of the BIG 4 because he simply out played 2 of the BIG 3.

Bayliss · 07-24-2003, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Well I didn't mean statistically. And as far as making someone a better player on this team who does that? Nash? Fin? Dirk? These guys are well developed players. I don't think someone can come in here and make these guys better. Now what I mean by Nick outplaying Nash and Fin I mean that by his leadership and not only that but when this team needed a bucket who made it? Who was that guy in the media who the media listened too? It wasn't Fin or Dirk. It was Nick. Nick was the guy always answering to the media. Now saying Nick wasn't close to MVP? I have to disagree with. I do not take my comment about Nick arguably being our MVP of the playoffs. He was there for everything. I think he was apart of what even got us out of the first round.

Leadership only goes so far. To keep him because of his leadership would be a terrible move. Extremely terrible. Keeping him because of a playoff run is a terrible move as well.

NVE creates holes in our offense and defense. Trading him might clog up some of those holes. It is as simple as that.

Drbio · 07-24-2003, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Bayliss
The scary thing? His rebounding average was 1 1/2 times better than Raef's in 3 minutes less a game.
If Stepania is bad... what does that say about Raef?

It might say he plays in a different system than Raef does and plays a different role.

jayC · 07-24-2003, 08:11 PM

I am for the laker and minnesota approach trade and sign whatever the best free agents and worry about chemistry and how they fit in later. If some how we could land Rahim Id be for it. Rahim maynot be the defender that we need but the defender that we need may not exist who did brian grant shut down exactly when he was in portland when the blazers were a quarter away from winning the title. I agree that raef had no contribution in the regular season but the mavs use raef in the wrong way: a lot of respected basketball people jeff van gundy said that the mavs underutilize raef lafrentz. Seriously how is the guy supposed to be helping us if all he does is spot up shooting the three.

Quote:

That is the only reason Ward is being considered. But we are so far over, it doesn't really make sense unless you want to get a 3rd team involved who wants to cut payroll. What if we got Atlanta involved and we send them Ward and AJ for Shareef? They would be able to clear almost 13 million from their payroll for 2004.

Id do that deal in heart beat. Along with thomas.

nash
finley
dirk
Thomas
Rahim
Dang thats one crazy offensive team. Hey kings are getting brad miller basically for a bag of beans. Bayliss Im sorry but drobnjak and coleman do nothing for me. Talk about underachiever coleman fits the bill.

I believe the big four thing is all a gimmick. Remember how the yankees always wheel and deal prospects and hype them up. I bellieve thats what nellie is doing when he says nicks a member of the big four.

JoshHoward5 · 07-24-2003, 08:34 PM

I say it's a little early to be talking about getting Shareef Abdur Rahim.

Lvubun1 · 07-25-2003, 12:54 AM

Knick fans aren't too happy about the rumors, after the Spree thing if the Raef trade went down you might have to put NYK fans on sucide watch. All of their trade ideas are modified to include NVE.

Dallas trades: PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 27.8 minutes)
C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23.4 minutes)
SF Eduardo Najera (6.7 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.0 apg in 23.0 minutes)

Dallas receives: C Travis Knight (1.9 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 32 games)
C Kurt Thomas (14.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 2.0 apg in 81 games)
SF Clarence Weatherspoon (6.6 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 0.9 apg in 79 games)
PG Charlie Ward (7.2 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 4.6 apg in 66 games)

or

Dallas trades: PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 27.8 minutes)
C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23.4 minutes)

Dallas receives: C Travis Knight (1.9 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 32 games)
C Kurt Thomas (14.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 2.0 apg in 81 games)
SF Clarence Weatherspoon (6.6 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 0.9 apg in 79 games)

Knicks Forum

Just211 · 07-25-2003, 08:31 AM

yeah, okay [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] those trades are ridiculous. the only way Dallas throws in NVE, is if it's some kinda 3 way. NYK has no one to warrant getting Nick

Raef for KT is fine, but they think we'll throw in NVE, for them to add Spoon and Knight, or even add Eddie and NVE for spoon, Knight, and Ward, and i thaught NY media was stupid. the fans must be being brainwashed by Vesci