Fortson Breaks Zarko's Wrist.... - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sbjensen · 11-27-2003, 02:40 PM

I don't see how the league (or anyone else) can look at the play and claim that Danny intended to injure the guy.

I also don't think anyone can rationally look at the play and call it a "good hard foul." It was clearly "excessive" and "unnecessary." For that reason, the Flagrant 2 was the right call, and a short suspension would not be inappropriate. The play was NOT, however, reflective of a "thug" who is out to hurt other players. It was a stupid play borne by frustration. The league should punish it.

For those who say it's a "disgrace" and that either the Mavericks or the NBA should get rid of Danny, I think you are WAY over the top.

sike · 11-27-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape
This is not the behavior of a championship team. Fortson has disgraced this franchise. His actions were inexcusable. The Maverics are a team built on skill, not thuggery. Fortson is a low class payer. I'm ashamed he's a Mav. I would not only suspend him, but waive him. There is no room for this kind of crap on my favorite team. I'm embarassed.

love ya....but take a few deep relaxing breaths...and say to your self, "I may need to reconsider this" about seven times and then go watch the play again and see if you really think it was a play worthy of death.....or whatever.....
it might just turn out to be a bad play that is deserving of punishment and that is all!

grndmstr_c · 11-27-2003, 03:00 PM

I might point out, also, that the Detroit Pistons won a pair of championships by playing a far dirtier brand of basketball than what Fortson did last night. Not that I would want the Mavs to turn in that kind of team, mind you.

Nash13 · 11-27-2003, 04:10 PM

Quote:

The Suns were still playing all out after we had waived the white flag, and if some guy wants to come up and dunk or finger roll on you when they are already up by 30 or so points and the game is over, then that same guy shouldn't be crying in the locker room after he was hard fouled in that attempt.

Quote:

And Simon, I also wondered why Marbury, Stoudemire and Joe Johnson were on the floor virtually to the end. That wasn't very classy by Frank Johnson, but then again, he's the one running the risk there. If one of them does get hurt in such a scenario, he has only himself to blame.

Both are the dead on.

I'm not talking as a bitter fan, but i don't feel sorry at all for Zarko or the Suns.

I watched the entire game last night, and:

Nellie emptied the bench in the third quarter. So both teams knew it was over late in the third.

They kept playing like it was a two point game, and Dallas played it like a 30pt game.

I understand Pheonix wanted to make sure a comeback was not possible, but when you have a 27 point lead with 3:33 to go, and you have 3 out of 5 starters on the court, that's dumb.

The coach should know, especially with a team like Dallas, that they're going to be some angry players on the court.

When Fortson hit the guy, i figured it would've hurt his back b/c he was might high in the air. And when they were checking on him, no one went after Fortson b/c they understood it wasn't intentional.

Also, didn't anyone pay attention to the personal insults the commentators made about Fortson before and after the foul? They had to be violating some FCC rule.

Peja_owns · 11-27-2003, 04:14 PM

Fortson was charged with a flagrant 2, which means that the foul was intentional and fortson was not going for the ball.

Nash13 · 11-27-2003, 04:21 PM

it was obvious the FOUL was intentional, but the INJURY wasn't. Sorry i didn't explain myself.

That team has a lot of insecurities when they are fully competing against a team that knew they already lost and gave up.

Maybe that's why we're still first in our division, and they are only .500

bigdaddy · 11-27-2003, 04:23 PM

FORTSON IS A THUG

suspend him for life

grndmstr_c · 11-27-2003, 04:25 PM

Fortson wasn't trying to break his wrist. I think that's what Nash 13 means.

Nash13, as for not being sorry for Zarko, that's not cool. Johnson had him out on the floor, and its his job to play hard. He doesn't deserve to have been injured for doing his job. Take issue with Johnson's decision to have the starters out there so late and with the game out of hand. That's fine, but Zarko did nothing wrong.

bingocasino · 11-27-2003, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bigdaddy
FORTSON IS A THUG

suspend him for life

LOL

philb7777 · 11-27-2003, 05:33 PM

Fortson needs to be suspended. I don't think he purposefully intended harm, but nonetheless for a foul like that you need to put in your time. I bet a 25K fine and 3 game suspension.

sike · 11-27-2003, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bigdaddy
FORTSON IS A THUG

suspend him for life

please let this be a joke....

FilthyFinMavs · 11-27-2003, 09:13 PM

Mavs fans aren't use to seeing good hard fouls. I admit that this situation is very unfortunate but Fortson had no intent to break the guys wrist. We all know how fast Fortson is. He isn't at all and the guy was running towards the rim for a dunk. The Mavs were already humiliated at the time. He was just trying to prevent the guy from a easy 2 points. He went for his arm and even apologized afterwards. If you want to be frustrated with anyone for the incident it should be the Mavs. The Mavs were the ones who were getting there ass whooped that bad in the first place.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-27-2003, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Evil's right on this one. Just about everyone complaining about Fortson here didn't watch the game.

The foul wasn't malicious. It was more a product of frustration and Fortson not being quick enough to get in position to give a hard foul and catch the man. Did you see any Suns getting in Fortson's face or getting upset? Hardly. The players knew it wasn't intentional. Coangelo is just reacting this way because he has to. If it were Nash or Finley or even Josh Howard (knock on wood) who had just broken their wrists, Cuban would probably react the same way.

I think Fortson should be suspended for a couple of games, because they need to discourage those types of fouls (out of position, no play for the ball, etc). But 6-8 week suspension? Come on. They don't give those for punching fans. They're not gonna give that for a play during the game, no matter how severe.

Exactly. They didn't watch the game but Fortson disgraced this franchise. Give me a break. It was a hard foul. Deal with it. It's no different then when Juwan Howard gave that hard foul to Derek Anderson in the playoffs a couple of years ago. Derek didn't play till the next series but Juwan didn't mean to hurt the guy. Mavs fans are too sensitive.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-27-2003, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape
This is not the behavior of a championship team. Fortson has disgraced this franchise. His actions were inexcusable. The Maverics are a team built on skill, not thuggery. Fortson is a low class payer. I'm ashamed he's a Mav. I would not only suspend him, but waive him. There is no room for this kind of crap on my favorite team. I'm embarassed.

What? I hope this is sarcasm. If not you are being way to sensitive. I guess Dennis Rodman wasn't apart of that Bulls team that won a championship in the late 90's. The guy gave a hard foul. It's unfortunate the guy got hurt but hey it happens. The game was clearly over but the guy was running in for a dunk. I'm not saying he got what was coming to him but when you drive to the hole you should know anything can happen. I've seen alot worse incidents in the last couple of years. I remember a play about 2 years ago were John Starks flipped Shawn Marion over his back and he landed on the back of his neck. Incidents like this happen all the time. NO one in there right mind would hurt someone intentionally. If that were the case they wouldn't be in the NBA. They would be either in jail or dead right now.

auffe34 · 11-27-2003, 10:05 PM

I saw the game on League Pass. Fortson's two hands hit Zarko in the stomach/ribs area when they were fully extended. He was not going for the ball. Hard fouls do occur...Do you think another team is gonna run up the score now in the final minutes of the game with DaFort on the floor. Stupid move by the Suns to keep their starters on the floor, they're just asking for trouble. Fortson was out of position/pissed and made a dirty play. Grounds for execution?? No. Lighten up people. He might get up to five games, but I'm guessing.

Dirkenstien · 11-27-2003, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Evilmav2
I would expect that Danny recieves a three game suspension for this. Aside from Colangelo's bitter polemics about the matter, the actual play did not look overly malicious to me. The foul was obviously unnecesary, but I really don't think that Fortson meant to do anything other than give a hard foul to discourage the Suns (who were still playing their first team against our scrubs at that time) from show-timing and running up the score any more.

I think the results of the foul are unfortunate, but I understand why Fortson probably made it. The Suns were still playing all out after we had waived the white flag, and if some guy wants to come up and dunk or finger roll on you when they are already up by 30 or so points and the game is over, then that same guy shouldn't be crying in the locker room after he was hard fouled in that attempt. That is to say, that if another teams players try to have fun when the outcome of the game has already been determined, they shouldn't be surprised when the pride-hurt losers throw some cheap shots to stop the fun.

As I said, I think that Fortson's foul was very hard and the results of it were unfortunate, but I for one, will not condemn him for making it.

Well put. The outcome was unfortunate because im sure Fortson's intentions were not to hurt him..just throw a hard foul. I stand by Fort in defending ourbasket even though we were not in the game at that point in time. Will the thought of this happening be in the back of other opposing players minds when they try to drive past the potato? who knows..only time will tell, but we can hope so and if they dont I hope Fortson has the same intentions of interrupting that play as he did this one.

madape · 11-27-2003, 10:29 PM

It was a dirty play by a dirty player. Of course he didn't intend on sending Zarko out for the year. But he meant to hurt him, and hurt him bad.

But to single this out as one distinct instance of an unfortunate play is wrong. This is who Fortson is. He's had a reputation of being a hacking thug his whole career. It's his whole game. He doesn't have the skill to do anything else. To play Fortson at all is to condone this type of behivior. Well, I for one don't condone it. "Good hard fouls" like the crap we've seen from Forton are NOT part of the game as it is meant to be played. I don't like it when my favorite team has to stoop to underhanded goon squad tactics to win games/intimidate people. Any real fan of the game wouldn't either.

Evilmav2 · 11-27-2003, 10:48 PM

Quote:

It was a dirty play by a dirty player. Of course he didn't intend on sending Zarko out for the year. But he meant to hurt him, and hurt him bad.

On this point, I think here we will have to just agree to disagree. I went back and watched that play at least 8 or 9 times on Tivo, and it just didn't look to me like Fortson was trying to hurt Zarko. He was trying to stop an open dunk, but he was out of position and a bit too strong for his own good. Fortson's body language after the foul, conveyed to me a sense of shock and regret, as he went over with s hanging head to try to help him up off of the ground, and as KG pointed out earlier, Zarko's teammates certainly did not react as if they thought Fortson had tried to kill the Chupacabra. The foul was violent and unnecessary, but again, I do not think that Fortson meant to do anything but prevent a layup, and he certainly didn't mean to enganger Carpokapa or throw him to the ground.

Intentions aside, I also don't want to see goonery in Mavericks basketball, and I certainly think Fortson deserves to be suspended for a few games, as he will. But that suspension will be for 2-7 games, and will not be for the arbitrary and outlandish 6 or 8 week sentence that Colangelo was calling for.

madape · 11-27-2003, 11:23 PM

Again, if this were anyone BUT Fortson, I would be a little more lenient. But THIS IS WHAT FORTSON IS ALL ABOUT!!! It's why so many people were excited to have him here (sick bastards). You don't think he meant to hurt Zarko? Well then what in the hell do you think he meant to do? Because it sure didn't look to me like he was trying to block the shot or take the charge. No, he wanted to put Zarko on the ground... to hurt him as much as he could. Perhaps it wasn't a malicious calculated decision. It was most likely just instinctual "OK, I can't make a play on this guy driving down the middle, so I'll just push him to the floor".

Beleive me, it's a whole lot easier to change a persons decision making ability than it is his instinct. Danny's instinct is to hurt people as bad as possible when they drive the lane. He's done it his whole career.

No, I don't think the league should suspend him for the year. I don't think they have the power to do so. But Don Nelson and Mark Cuban have the power to play him or sit him on the bench. If they choose to play him, it sends a message LOUD AND CLEAR to the rest of the NBA that anyone who plays against the Mavericsk is at risk for season ending injury. In fact, it's open season on superstars. Not only will the Mavs look the other way the next time it happens, they'll give Danny a good hard slap on the back as he struts out towards the locker room. As he gives high-fives to the fance, we'll all say "Nice foul Danny. Next time, go for the neck."

No that's bullshit. That foul was bullshit. I don't want to see this guy on the court for a long time.

Psychedelic Fuzz · 11-27-2003, 11:41 PM

Yes it was a hard foul, yes it was unnecessary. Was Fort trying to put the guy on his back? Possibly, but that is different from trying to break the kid's wrist. I wanted to see a little attitude from this team, but not like this. It was ugly, but HE WAS NOT TRYING TO PUT THE KID OUT OF COMMISION.

he should be fined and suspended, but he shouldn't be hanged.

grndmstr_c · 11-27-2003, 11:42 PM

Madape, I really think you're really overreacting to this. If it were Danny's intention, or even instinct to hurt Zarko as badly as possible he would have grabbed him and slammed him. Danny's instinct was to stop Zarko from scoring. He was out of position, he's strong as an ox, and he probably made the decision to physically impede him about the time Zarko was making the decision to jump. Danny didn't react well (I think we all know the guy's reflexes and quickness are not the best) and what happened happened. It was a play he shouldn't have made, but it wasn't even a violent shove. It just, unfortunately, turned out very badly for Zarko. I feel quite certain I haven't convinced you to see this my way, and that's fine because you certainly have every right to your opinion. Furthermore, it's not like you're taking a dishonorable position, advocating clean play as you are. I just don't see what happened as being bad enough, in terms of Fortson's intentions, to condemn him and his place on the team.

Lvubun1 · 11-28-2003, 12:28 AM

Defending Fortson on this is a complete joke. The guy went up for a lay-up and he pushed him to the ground, was his intent to injury the guy, I don't know, but its called cause and action, when a guy is 4 feet in the air and you push him to the ground what the hell do you expect to happen? For him to magically land on his feet? Its like if I punch somebody in the face and say "Damn I didn't mean to hurt you" Well when you punch somebody in the face what do you expect to happen? Its homerism plain and simple, if Fortson was still on Golden State and he layed into Dirk just the same way, half of this forum would be charging to Fortson's house with a pick axes and shotguns.

Psychedelic Fuzz · 11-28-2003, 12:45 AM

I'm not following your analogy. If I were to punch someone, I am trying to hurt them, no question. If I push a guy driving to the basket and he falls and lands on his wrist, that is different. If Fortson had pushed him hard enough to crack a couple of ribs, that would be different. If Fortson had taunted the kid and not showed concern or remorse, that would be different. No one is disputing that Fortson fouled the guy hard or that he needs to be fined/suspended.

If this had happened to Dirk, we would be up in arms calling for someone's head, just like the phoenix people are. That is perfectly natural, but I'm not seeing homerism, I'm seeing objectivity.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-28-2003, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Lvubun1
Defending Fortson on this is a complete joke. The guy went up for a lay-up and he pushed him to the ground, was his intent to injury the guy, I don't know, but its called cause and action, when a guy is 4 feet in the air and you push him to the ground what the hell do you expect to happen? For him to magically land on his feet? Its like if I punch somebody in the face and say "Damn I didn't mean to hurt you" Well when you punch somebody in the face what do you expect to happen? Its homerism plain and simple, if Fortson was still on Golden State and he layed into Dirk just the same way, half of this forum would be charging to Fortson's house with a pick axes and shotguns.

The guy was going for a dunk. Fortson did not push the guy to the ground. The guy was in the air and Fortson was still on the court. Fortson is a rough player. He isn't a soft player. The guy is always going to play hard for the ball. On that particular play I didn't even see anything for the guy to even get a flagrant 2. These type of plays happen all the time. It's nothing new my gosh. You'd think the guy killed someone. I don't condone anyone hurting people intentionally however I can forgive a guy who accidently knocks a guy down out of hte air and apologizes and goes and sees if the guy is okay.

Nellie and Cub would be a bunch of idiots to sit this guy out pass his suspension period. That is if he does get one which I believe he will. Quit overreacting Mavs fans. Malik Rose stepped on Dirk one game while he was on the floor. Did he intentionally do that? THere is a hate going on here for Fortson and it needs to be stopped. The guy didn't intentionally mean to hurt the guy.

Evilmav2 · 11-28-2003, 12:45 AM

"It wasn't intentional," Cuban said. "He didn't try to hit him in the head, take out his feet, or do anything to try to hurt him. He pushed him. He wasn't going for the ball, so the flagrant 2 was warranted, but I don't think a suspension is."

FilthyFinMavs · 11-28-2003, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Psychedelic Fuzz
I'm not following your analogy. If I were to punch someone, I am trying to hurt them, no question. If I push a guy driving to the basket and he falls and lands on his wrist, that is different. If Fortson had pushed him hard enough to crack a couple of ribs, that would be different. If Fortson had taunted the kid and not showed concern or remorse, that would be different. No one is disputing that Fortson fouled the guy hard or that he needs to be fined/suspended.

If this had happened to Dirk, we would be up in arms calling for someone's head, just like the phoenix people are. That is perfectly natural, but I'm not seeing homerism, I'm seeing objectivity.

Not only do I not follow the analogy I just don't follow this whole crying thats going on. I expected this from Suns fans but not Mavs fans. I don't see this as any different then when Juwan Howard accidently knocked Derek Anderson out of the air which took him out for the series. Everyone is overreacting here.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-28-2003, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Evilmav2

"It wasn't intentional," Cuban said. "He didn't try to hit him in the head, take out his feet, or do anything to try to hurt him. He pushed him. He wasn't going for the ball, so the flagrant 2 was warranted, but I don't think a suspension is."

Cub speaking with some sense and is right on point.

Psychedelic Fuzz · 11-28-2003, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Not only do I not follow the analogy I just don't follow this whole crying thats going on. I expected this from Suns fans but not Mavs fans. I don't see this as any different then when Juwan Howard accidently knocked Derek Anderson out of the air which took him out for the series. Everyone is overreacting here

Exactly.

dallas_esq · 11-28-2003, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Evilmav2

"It wasn't intentional," Cuban said. "He didn't try to hit him in the head, take out his feet, or do anything to try to hurt him. He pushed him. He wasn't going for the ball, so the flagrant 2 was warranted, but I don't think a suspension is."

Does Cuban like thugs? May I remind everyone that Fortson was brought here for his "physical play," and to "hard foul" those invading the lane. We need defense and we need somebody willing to get in there and bump shaq's big arse. Is this part of basketball or not? Is what he did something you want done to Tim Duncan or Dirk when they are in the game? Those guys ought to wear pads if they are going to shove each other around like that. When a guy is in the air he is pretty vulnerable.

Dr.Throwbackman · 11-28-2003, 01:01 AM

What is all this thug stuff about? Just because you keep a guy from making an easy basket with a hard foul dosent make anyone a thug. For god sakes he didn't tackle the guy, he just gave him a push. And right after the foul he went and checked to see if he was allright, not to many thugs do that. The foul was probably just a split second reaction. Yes it was a flagrant, but worse flagrants happen all the time. Just because the guys wrist happen to break shouldn't worsen or better his punishment in any way, it was a flagrant plane and simple. If his wrist didn't break we would not even be talking about this right now. Fortson is in no way out of control or attacking people, so people need to stop dramatizing this. He is a tough player, and I would love to see more players on this team with that toughness.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-28-2003, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dr.Throwbackman
What is all this thug stuff about? Just because you keep a guy from making an easy basket with a hard foul dosent make anyone a thug. For god sakes he didn't tackle the guy, he just gave him a push. And right after the foul he went and checked to see if he was allright, not to many thugs do that. The foul was probably just a split second reaction. Yes it was a flagrant, but worse flagrants happen all the time. Just because the guys wrist happen to break shouldn't worsen or better his punishment in any way, it was a flagrant plane and simple. If his wrist didn't break we would not even be talking about this right now. Fortson is in no way out of control or attacking people, so people need to stop dramatizing this. He is a tough player, and I would love to see more players on this team with that toughness.

Don't worry Mavs fans will get over it. They are just use to having soft players attempt to foul and in the process end up giving up 2 points and a free throw.

FreshJive · 11-28-2003, 01:12 AM

There is nothing tough about Fortson's foul. He was beat and pissed about it so he took it out on an easy target. Was he attempting to break Zarko's wrist? No. He wasn't even thinking that far. He was irresponsibly taking his anger out on a vulnerable target with no forethought as to the consequences. Tough is being in position to make a play and taking your Ass whupins when they come with a bit of class. Zarko isn't really a starter yet and was doing his job. He had every right to still be in the game and to still be playing hard. Fortson's foul has nothing to do with hard or tough play, but a lazy cheap ass shot.

MavsFanFinley · 11-28-2003, 01:37 AM

I've seen the play a couple times. I doubt Fortson's intent was to hurt Zarko, but you better believe that he was making sure Zarko didn't get a basket.

I'd love to see hard fouls be given by the Mavs, but that doesn't fall under pushing guys in midair while making no attempt at the ball. Fortson has admitted he wasn't going for the ball. Hello??

FishForLunch · 11-28-2003, 02:03 AM

I bet you the refs have the eyes on Danny, his first game back from suspension he will foul out in less than 5 minutes.

Lvubun1 · 11-28-2003, 05:06 AM

My analogy makes perfect sense, if you punch someone in the face, chances are what will happen? That person will get hurt. If a guy is up 4 ft in the air flying towards you, and your a 300+ pound man and you push him mid-flight, chances are what will happen? That person will get hurt. Just because he didn't mean to hurt him doesn't give him a excuse, who cares if he meant it or not, he's not smart enough to realize you can't shove a guy who is up in the air that can't get his feet under him? Imagine if it was you, your at the part playing ball, you jump up in the air somebody pushes you and you break your wrist, and they guy comes over and says "Damn, man I didn't mean to hurt you" What are you going to do, hop up and hug the guy? I doubt it? And why not he didn't mean to do it.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-28-2003, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
I've seen the play a couple times. I doubt Fortson's intent was to hurt Zarko, but you better believe that he was making sure Zarko didn't get a basket.

I'd love to see hard fouls be given by the Mavs, but that doesn't fall under pushing guys in midair while making no attempt at the ball. Fortson has admitted he wasn't going for the ball. Hello??

No one disagrees that Fortson didn't go for ball but what I and others are saying is he didn't mean to injure the guy. No one in there right mind would want to injure anyone purposely. They wouldn't have made it out of college ball and would be in jail or dead right now.

milannis · 11-28-2003, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
If the foul was intentional but the harm was not he should spend some time on the bench but he should be welcomed back to the team.

If, however the foul and damage were intentional he should be immediately put on the IL never to play again. Nellie should make sure that he knew that he wasnt welcome back

It is truly sad when the "soft" or "finesse" label has gotten so bad that someone would defend Fortson's actions as defending our toughness.

I do agree with your opinion, especially with what you said in the third paragraph. I also find it sad
that some of the posters here, did defend his actions, by calling it a "good, hard foul" and as one
even stated "he was happy that somebody at least stood up". If "standing up" for them means,
to take it on to your opponent with no intention to play the ball, just to stop him, with every high
risk that there can be, that he might get hurt, than they have a totally different opinion of what
basketball is, than most people do.
Evilmav stated that the injury or the incident was greatly unfortunate. I really can't agree with
that. When you push somebody around in midair like that, there is a high risk that that player
will get hurt, as it very easy to get hurt, once you land unbalanced. And as somebody stated
that as a player you should expect that, when you go to the hole and you are already up by 20
the other player might have something against it, you are right, you do expect that he will contest
the shoot, and won't let you make it uncontested. But no player expects that his opponent might
just go for it to hurt him instead of playing the ball. No player expects flagrant fouls: it's because
they are unsportsmanslike, unfair and not a part of the game, but a part of how pissed somebody
is about the game, and for this he can let his anger out in the locker room but not on a opponent
player. I do unterstand when somebody lets his anger out on the opposing player, because he
just got shoved, or fouled unsportsmanslikely by him, but this was not the case here.

What I mean is, because nobody expects unsportmanslike fouls, they are so dangerous, that's
why so many injuries result from there ( and not unfortunately like Evilmav stated, moreover it is
the other way round, you are fortunate if you do not get hurt after such a foul), because if the
players were used to them, they would take greater care when playing and maybe would not
get to the bucket especially in garbage time, with expecting to get hurt. Of couse that would
take the game much of its beauty, but at least it would be safer.
But the solution is not to make the players used to flagrant fouls, or put yellow warning sings
on players, when they are down by a lot of points saying "Danger, I am likely to hurt you"
the solution is to act very harsh against fouls of that nature and making to the players
clear that is not at all excuseable. A money penalty and a five games ban do not have that
effect at all in my opinion, they do not show the perpetrator the effects of his acts,
like in this case, that the other player will not play for 5 or 8 weeks, so I think a day to day
ban, as long the other player is not able to play sounds considerable to me. At least he
should get to feel suffering of the other player and sit on the bench for half of the time,
like 4 or 5 weeks, everything else is not deterioting enough, where it should be.
And I wanted to say something about Cabarkapa, the kid that got hurt, I really feel sorry for him,
he really seems not to have the luck for him this year. He got hurt with year starting and
couldn't play and show the effort and game, he showed in the preseason. And back from this
and getting minutes, because one of his teammates is hurt, he really plays good, shows
this game, just to get hurt again, not to mention of being out for a long time.
And I hope he will do better!!

And as for Evilmav again: First you are telling that the incident was greatly unfortunate, and then you say
that it could have even been worse damage to Zarko and therefore everything is fine. How do you
put this pair of shoes together?
Textq]Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
If the foul was intentional but the harm was not he should spend some time on the bench but he should be welcomed back to the team.

LoveMyMavs14 · 11-28-2003, 09:58 AM

I'm suprised at some of the responses here, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think some people are taking the (somewhat outlandish) comments of the Suns coach and owner seriously, and seeing Danny as some sort of vicious maniac who was thinking "hurt, hurt!" if not "kill, kill" when he made that terrible decision. A terrible decision is all it was, he SHOULD be disciplined, fined, suspended for several games--but I don't think any of you can honestly call him a "thug". Thugs don't apologize after they do something like that.

If it was so serious and so malicious, don't you think some of the Phoeix players would have been after Fortson right then? Has anyone else noticed that none of those comments about it being "vicious" and the harm "completely intentional" all came until AFTER they found out his wrist was broken? Yes, it was UNFORTUNATE that Zarko broke his wrist. Player after player has been knocked to the ground in seriously rough play, whether that is right or not....and how often do you hear of them breaking a wrist? It's Danny's fault he pushed the kid, but until you show me where he snapped the kids wrist in half with his bare hands, I'm not ready to take him out back and shoot him like many of you already seem to be.

kingrex · 11-28-2003, 11:47 AM

The range of opinions on this topic seem to swing from calling for Fortson to be waived to giving him a pat on the back for a "good hard foul".

The objective point of view is probably somewhere in the middle, when it comes to how Fortson should be dealt with.

First let's discuss the points that everyone would agree on:
1) the foul was a deserved flagrant 2 foul.
2) the foul has no place in this game, no matter what the score or how "tough" you want to appear (It's not tough to shove someone when they're defenseless in the air)
3) Fortson did NOT intend to break Zarko's wrist.

So in light of these facts, what punishment does Fortson deserve?

I agree that within league rules, he should not be punished more than 4 or 5 games despite the fact that the foul resulted in an injury. In other words, Forston should be punished by the league no more than the maximum for any other flagrant 2 foul. The Mavs should do no more than what the what the League will punish him for. Moreover, I don't want to hear Cuban complain about the punishment when he has been lobbying this league for the officiating to "clamp" down on play that may hurt his biggest investments (his players).

I also hope that Nellie is not just publicly saying he is upset with Fortson, but is actually sitting the guy down and explaining to him why there is no need for that type of foul in this game.

As for us fans. Fortson made a bad decision, and maybe he does have a proclivity to make these bad decisions, but the guy can be changed. He can be made to realize the difference between shoving a guy and making a true hard foul by going after the ball. In this case, he had no play on the ball. So you got beat on one lay-up that has no bearing on the result of the game. Suck it up and play better defense next time.

Playing tough defense by challenging all shots and fighting under the basket for a rebound is what makes for a tough team. Not shoving a guy in midair.

dallas_esq · 11-28-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Lvubun1
My analogy makes perfect sense, if you punch someone in the face, chances are what will happen? That person will get hurt. If a guy is up 4 ft in the air flying towards you, and your a 300+ pound man and you push him mid-flight, chances are what will happen? That person will get hurt. Just because he didn't mean to hurt him doesn't give him a excuse, who cares if he meant it or not, he's not smart enough to realize you can't shove a guy who is up in the air that can't get his feet under him? Imagine if it was you, your at the part playing ball, you jump up in the air somebody pushes you and you break your wrist, and they guy comes over and says "Damn, man I didn't mean to hurt you" What are you going to do, hop up and hug the guy? I doubt it? And why not he didn't mean to do it.

This poster understands intent better than most. When people act they may not intend to bring about a certain injury but they intend to bring about the natural consequences of their acts. No one is questioning whether he intended to do the act, just whether he intended the consequences. We cannot seperate these two. We say that if an act done has reasonably foreseeable consequences, then the actor knew or should have known about those consequences, and therefore acted with at least a wilfull disregard of those consequences, a depraved heart. See Palsgraff the standard for determining the causal nexus between acts and consequences. This is how we determine fault. If we say that Fortson intended the act then Fortson knew or should have known what he was doing could cause this injury.

According to the venerable Madape, Fortson has made a career of this. Could you cite other instances for us please? I still think based on Cuban's reaction that the Mavericks want some "thug-like" play. Fortson was brought here for just this type of thing. It is regrettable to me that the Mavs might condone this type of thug play. I could hold Cuban to the same causal standard as above and say that by bringing Fortson here, he knew this type of thing could happen. Is this the philosophy we really want? Is this just tough basketball? Is it OK if people get attacked in the air while defenseless like an NFL receiver? Think about it people.