Vinny Testeverde? A Cowboy?

[Dooby]

I don't have a hard time turning down an ex-mvp who is being kicked to the curb. Warner isn't being sent packing because of the cap, he is being sent packing because they don't want him.

[Drbio]

Warner is being sent packing because they have an equivalent QB talent wise, who isn't prone (yet) to concussions. Also, Warner costs more. If you are saying that Vinny is a better option than Warner....well....I don't know how you can reach that conclusion because obviously he is not. As far as mobility goes, Vinny and Warner are equals...the difference lies in Warners ability to immediately process the field and get rid of the ball. Vinny dumps it for an incomplete. Warner gives you a shot of making something out of nothing. Qspare gets a pick run back for a defensive touchdown.

[Murphy3]

As far as protecting the QB, the O'line really wasn't that bad last season.

[chumdawg]

How would you be able to tell, since they used such a dumbed-down passing game? And since they used gimmicks like sprinting Quincy out so often?

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: chumdawg
How would you be able to tell, since they used such a dumbed-down passing game? And since they used gimmicks like sprinting Quincy out so often?

The dumbed down passing game was used to limit the decisions that Quincy had to make. The coaching staff didn't trust Carter enough to have his progressions going from one side of the field to the other. So, the routes and progressions were simplified so that Carter could check down on the same side of the field for the most part. That didn't mean that the offensive line no longer had blocking responsibilities.

[Dooby]

I was reading the other day (wholly non-Cowboys related-Peyton Manning article) how Walsh "dumbed down" the playbook for Montana in the early years. Walsh didn't want to "overexpose" his young QB. Both those terms showed up in the same paragraph. I thought it was funny.

[Murphy3]

Add a dumbed down offense to inaccurate and mistake prone...well, not a good combination.

Dooby, what do you think?

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: Murphy3

The dumbed down passing game was used to limit the decisions that Quincy had to make. The coaching staff didn't trust Carter enough to have his progressions going from one side of the field to the other. So, the routes and progressions were simplified so that Carter could check down on the same side of the field for the most part. That didn't mean that the offensive line no longer had blocking responsibilities.

Oh, but it meant they had less than normal! When the game plan was to get the ball away quickly, to only one area of the field, then they only had to hold their blocks for so long. You can't have a "dumbed down" passing game and have the quarterback taking seven step drops.

Especially early in the season, the Cowboys moved the pocket a lot. That was either to take advantage of Q-Star's mobility or to camoflauge the weaknesses in line.

The line played about as well as they could have been expected to last year, but with the guys they threw out there, you couldn't expect them to play that well at all. How many starts did they get from rookies or second-year guys?

And with the running game they threw out there, it's amazing they could do any pass blocking at all.

[dalmations202]

So,
Given the choice for the starting QB for the Cowboys next year, money not a question, would you rather have: Warner, Vinny, Couch, QCar, Hutch, Romo, or Henson starting for them?

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: dalmations202
So,
Given the choice for the starting QB for the Cowboys next year, money not a question, would you rather have: Warner, Vinny, Couch, QCar, Hutch, Romo, or Henson starting for them?

Unequivocally....give me Warner.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: Drbio

Unequivocally....give me Warner.

My thoughts exactly.

[aexchange]

after watching warner play in a few games last year, he looked absolutely pathetic. hes infinately worse than anything qcar was on the field.

all his decision making ability is gone, and hes really a shell of his former self. id rather put henson out there for a rough period of time then let warner play.

[Drbio]

Aex- I usually agree with you about 90% of the time, but that was so incredibly wrong (IMHO) that I am speechless.

[aexchange]

Originally posted by: Drbio
Aex- I usually agree with you about 90% of the time, but that was so incredibly wrong (IMHO) that I am speechless.

a few years ago, warner was an incredible player. but thats just it, a few years ago. injuries, concussions, and age have robbed him of any decision making abilities he had in the pocket. he's not athletic enough to avoid the rush, and he's not strong enough at this stage of his career to stand in the pocket without fear. he's brittle, he makes bad decisions in the pocket, and he can't avoid a rush with a decent o-line in st. louis. if he cant avoid a rush in st. louis, do you really think he'll be able to avoid a speeding kearse or lumbering simon in the pocket?

he won't. he can't. if you started warner over a 16 game season, he would easily throw 20-25 int's. he'd be far less productive than qcar, and he'd get sacked over 40 times. guaranteed. in fact, i would wager money on it. also in dallas, he doesnt have a faulk to dump the ball to on a swing pass or screen, he's got 90 year old richie anderson. in dallas, he doesn't have torry holt or issac bruce to throw the ball to down the field to stretch defenses. he's got a few possession receivers in johnson, bryant, and glenn.

let's not live in the past here. if we could some how get the warner of a few years ago, of course you do it, but the warner of the past few seasons.... No Way.

this has nothing to do btw, with whether i like qcar or not. i'm convinced he's out after this year, but everyone who dreams about vinny or warner being the savior of the boys until henson is ready, is doing just that. dreaming.

[Big Boy Laroux]

you know, i don't really care what dallas does, but I like reading you guys' arguments. just had to say that I agree with this:

in fact, i would wager money on it. also in dallas, he doesnt have a faulk to dump the ball to on a swing pass or screen, he's got 90 year old richie anderson

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: aexchange

a few years ago, warner was an incredible player. but thats just it, a few years ago. injuries, concussions, and age have robbed him of any decision making abilities he had in the pocket. he's not athletic enough to avoid the rush, and he's not strong enough at this stage of his career to stand in the pocket without fear. he's brittle, he makes bad decisions in the pocket, and he can't avoid a rush with a decent o-line in st. louis. if he cant avoid a rush in st. louis, do you really think he'll be able to avoid a speeding kearse or lumbering simon in the pocket?

he won't. he can't. if you started warner over a 16 game season, he would easily throw 20-25 int's. he'd be far less productive than qcar, and he'd get sacked over 40 times. guaranteed. in fact, i would wager money on it. also in dallas, he doesnt have a faulk to dump the ball to on a swing pass or screen, he's got 90 year old richie anderson. in dallas, he doesn't have torry holt or issac bruce to throw the ball to down the field to stretch defenses. he's got a few possession receivers in johnson, bryant, and glenn.

let's not live in the past here. if we could some how get the warner of a few years ago, of course you do it, but the warner of the past few seasons.... No Way.

this has nothing to do btw, with whether i like qcar or not. i'm convinced he's out after this year, but everyone who dreams about vinny or warner being the savior of the boys until henson is ready, is doing just that. dreaming.

AEX,
Warner on his worse days, is more accurate than QCar. Yes, he had weapons, and no, he is not anywhere near as mobile. He can make plays though. When he was throwing with a broken finger, he was still more accurate than QCar. I watch the games and go insane when QCar has a guy running wide open accross the field and he "misses" him, usually on third and 6. Warner got fumble prone when the line was hurt, and Faulk was out, and he broke his hand. Funny how that works.

In his last 2 injury years - his QB rating was 67.4 (7 games) and 72.9 (2 games) before that when healthy 101.4 (16 games). He aslo has a 109.2 year and a 98.3 year.

In QCar's best year w/o any problems 72.3 (8 games) and his other years are 71.4 (16 games-last year) and 63.0 (7 games). There is no comparison.

Warner at his worse is as good as QCar at his best.

I don't want to give an injury prone QB 10 mil a year, but if he is cut and will come in for a few mill a year, then IMO he is a definate upgrade at QB even if he play at his worse. If he plays at his best, then he puts you in the championship.

[dirno2000]

Dalmatians, what possible reason do you have for thinking Warner will ever reach the level he played at in his Pro-Bowl seasons? Our running back situation is worse, our receiver situation is worse; the offensive line is a push at best. What you’ll get from Warner is the same thing you’ve gotten the past two seasons. Yes, his QB rating matched Quincy's but that doesn't account for the fact that Quincy ran for 348 yards the past two seasons. Many of those runs moved the chains. Also consider that Warner has lost 14 fumbles over the past two years despite playing only 9 games. Quincy on the other hand has lost 6 fumbles in 23 games. Over the past two seasons Quincy has thrown only 23 TD's and 29 int's. That's not good. What's even worse is Warner throwing 12 int's and only 4 TD's. Our offense isn't as explosive as the Rams' and can't overcome all those negative plays. I haven't ever mentioned the fact that Warner is probably one good hit away from retirement. If we're going to bring Warner in, we may as well throw Henson out there now.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: dirno2000
Dalmatians, what possible reason do you have for thinking Warner will ever reach the level he played at in his Pro-Bowl seasons? Our running back situation is worse, our receiver situation is worse; the offensive line is a push at best. What you’ll get from Warner is the same thing you’ve gotten the past two seasons. Yes, his QB rating matched Quincy's but that doesn't account for the fact that Quincy ran for 348 yards the past two seasons. Many of those runs moved the chains. Also consider that Warner has lost 14 fumbles over the past two years despite playing only 9 games. Quincy on the other hand has lost 6 fumbles in 23 games. Over the past two seasons Quincy has thrown only 23 TD's and 29 int's. That's not good. What's even worse is Warner throwing 12 int's and only 4 TD's. Our offense isn't as explosive as the Rams' and can't overcome all those negative plays. I haven't ever mentioned the fact that Warner is probably one good hit away from retirement. If we're going to bring Warner in, we may as well throw Henson out there now.

Thanx, at last, someone who wants to discuss the merits of the QB.

IMO

Warner has had his problems for the last two years (I will give credit). One where he really did not play, and one where he was injured. I guess when I look at him, and see an ex-MVP who wasn't battered and bruised badly last year; (so he could heal) I at least think he has the shot. My reason for believing in Warner is the Pro's/Con's reasoning. His upside is double that of QCar, and he has done it before. His downside is the equal of QCar. If I am wrong, I still have as good a QB as what I presently have. If I am right, we are in the position to win the big one. If it is somewhere in the middle, then I am still better off than before. If you are talking about an injury ending a career, then that can happen on any play to any player. Look what happened to Michael Irvin.

Example: The Cowboys just signed Wiley as a pass rusher. He has been injured, and is older than Ekuban. Why? by your logic, we might as well just put a drafted rookie in the game now. Wiley in his worse year was about as good as Ekuban in his best. They were basically the same last year, only .5 sacks difference. Ekuban would have been cheaper, and would have stayed. Why did we sign Wiley then; Because to win now, Wiley has the much better upside, and has done it before.

If we're going to bring Warner in, we may as well throw Henson out there now.

I do not understand this statement at all. Warner may have 3 good years left in him, that is about the time it will take to get Henson up to where he should be. He could be the difference in Henson getting a good understanding of what is expected of a QB, versus looking at a more simplified offense because the staff does not believe in the ability of the QB. Would you rather have Henson learning from someone who has been there and done that, or from others just trying to learn themselves?

[Dooby]

According to Norm, there is a report on the World League Players training in Florida in this week's Sporting News. The report said that Chad Hutchison was the most closely scrutinized player at the camp. Nothing that Hutch did dissuaded the Cowboys from drafting Henson. Supposedly Hutch is perfroming terribly-poor accuracy, poor decision making, poor arm strength, poor mobility.

[dirno2000]

Warner has had his problems for the last two years (I will give credit). One where he really did not play, and one where he was injured. I guess when I look at him, and see an ex-MVP who wasn't battered and bruised badly last year; (so he could heal) I at least think he has the shot. My reason for believing in Warner is the Pro's/Con's reasoning. His upside is double that of QCar, and he has done it before. His downside is the equal of QCar. If I am wrong, I still have as good a QB as what I presently have. If I am right, we are in the position to win the big one. If it is somewhere in the middle, then I am still better off than before. If you are talking about an injury ending a career, then that can happen on any play to any player. Look what happened to Michael Irvin.

Example: The Cowboys just signed Wiley as a pass rusher. He has been injured, and is older than Ekuban. Why? by your logic, we might as well just put a drafted rookie in the game now. Wiley in his worse year was about as good as Ekuban in his best. They were basically the same last year, only .5 sacks difference. Ekuban would have been cheaper, and would have stayed. Why did we sign Wiley then; Because to win now, Wiley has the much better upside, and has done it before.

First of all, if both QB's play the way they played the past two seasons then we're not in the same position; we're worse off. You're basing you opinion on QB rating which doesn't take into account the plays Quincy makes with his feet. He’s not McNabb, but he's light years ahead of Warner in that department. You're also overlooking Warner’s negative plays. 14 fumbles lost and 12 int's to 4 TD's is horrendous. We're not good enough to overcome that. Granted, when they're both protected and have all day, Warner is probably more accurate. The problem is that in today's NFL you rarely get to just stand in there untouched.

Yes any player's career can end on any play. The difference is that Kurt Warner has had problems with concussions so the odds are a lot higher with him than Quincy or even Vinny.

Marcellus Wiley is three years younger than Kurt Warner and doesn't have his recent history of injuries and concussions. I can also see a valid reason for Wiley's production decline. The talent was taken from around him so that defenses could focus on him. The fact that he played the run so well last year shows that he still has something to offer. The talent drop around Kurt Warner was not nearly as steep. Sometimes a once great QB just takes one too many hits and is never the same (see Troy Aikman).

I do not understand this statement at all. Warner may have 3 good years left in him, that is about the time it will take to get Henson up to where he should be. He could be the difference in Henson getting a good understanding of what is expected of a QB, versus looking at a more simplified offense because the staff does not believe in the ability of the QB. Would you rather have Henson learning from someone who has been there and done that, or from others just trying to learn themselves?

My reasoning is that IMO the odds of Kurt playing an entire season are pretty slim and it seems you want Quincy gone now. I do want a vet in here, it's just that my vet of choice is Vinny.

[kingrex]

If an aged-Vinny T wins the starting job, then that truly shows just how inept the Tuna thinks QCar must be.

Vinny will function as mentor to the stable of young Cowboy QB's. I don't believe he will start this year except to be used as a teaching tool by the Tuna.

[dalmations202]

My reasoning is that IMO the odds of Kurt playing an entire season are pretty slim and it seems you want Quincy gone now. I do want a vet in here, it's just that my vet of choice is Vinny.

Cool (I can understand and respect your opinion),

but Vinny is 40. Warner will be 33 by the start of next season.
Vinny has been getting beat upon for 18 seasons, and Warner for 5 (first season with 1 game not counted).
I understand that Warner got a concussion, and that with the history of Aikman, you should worry. But Aikman like Young had many years of concussions.
The odds of Vinny standing up for a year are slim as well. He hasn't in the last 2 years either been 16 games or even 10.
Vinny in his best year had one season of 100 rating, Warner in 5 seasons has 2 and one at 98.
Vinny is normally about a 70 avg QB. That is what QCar is. Vinny is not more/less mobile than Warner, so if you are worried about mobility, then let's let QCar take the beating for another year or two in the "simplistic" offense, and not upgrade now.

Yes, I agree that with the limited output of Warner for the last two years, it is a chance (but IMO a chance worth taking). But look at Farve. In 99 he had more INT than TD and a less than 80 rate, and followed that with a less than 80 rate in 2000. Then the next 3 years he has at least 10 more TD than INT and ratings of 85-94.1. Having two bad years does not mean that you are a bad QB, especially when you have been as good as Warner has.

Vinny is nothing extraordinary. Warner was at least a couple of years.

I don't care if QCar goes, or stays to learn as the backup. I just want a better QB now. The defense was #1 this last year. The offense has to get much better to get there. That includes QB play. If QCar can start "making the throws", and make better decisions, then I will be happy. I just have not been happy with the inaccuracy of his throws, and some of the decisions he has made while under pressure. He is like Hutch, and Henson; needing more time to convert from baseball player to football player.

I will admit. I want to win now, and develop a QB for the future. I don't care who the QB for the future is (QCar, Henson, even Hutch or a rookie), I just want to win now and then.

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: dalmations202<I don't care if QCar goes, or stays to learn as the backup. I just want a better QB now.

If QCar comes into the pre-season with the same attitude he had last pre-season, I can almost guarantee that you see a better version of QCar this year. I don't think he needs to worry about Henson this year, but watch out next year. Henson will really be a threat to start, I predict, by next year especially with Vinny mentoring him.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: Dooby
According to Norm, there is a report on the World League Players training in Florida in this week's Sporting News. The report said that Chad Hutchison was the most closely scrutinized player at the camp. Nothing that Hutch did dissuaded the Cowboys from drafting Henson. Supposedly Hutch is perfroming terribly-poor accuracy, poor decision making, poor arm strength, poor mobility.

Hutch is cut bait at this point. No surprises.







I agree with dalmations post above regarding Warner so I am not going to clutter up the board again wiht another response. Nice job dalmations!