Nowitzki ... The Best Player in the West? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

TVI · 04-30-2003, 11:16 PM

<< He doesn't rebound or defend as well as Duncan or KG, but he is a much better scorer than both. I would have said Duncan was the best of the 3 for now, but he has really underwhelmed me so far in the play-offs. He's not even getting 20 ppg. You could say that's a result of having more scorers around him, and trying to get them involved in the offese, but if that were true I would think the Spurs would not be struggling against the Suns. >>

Well, struggling is a bit of a stretch. In fact, were it not for two miracle shots in game one, that series would be over. Go back and look. So far, the Spurs have really dominated that series. Even in the games they lost, they controlled the tempo, and had the lead up to the end. The Suns only wins were the result of some incredible luck, and SA's late fourth quarter collapse in game four. That one was reminiscent of the Mavs-Blazers game 5. Dallas controlled that game. They just let it slip away.

I don't think you appreciate the magnitude of how Duncan changes the game. What other player in the league (not named Shaq) demands constant double-teams (even triple-teams) the way Duncan does? The Suns have one goal in mind: make somebody...anybody...other than Duncan beat you. They're betting their entire post season that the Spurs don't have anyone else who can step it up. The Lakers did that to the Spurs last year. That's the reason Duncan's not scoring as much. He's being forced to pass out of the double teams.

I like Dirk's game, but he isn't the dominating threat that Duncan is. Also, his defense is nowhere near what Duncan's is.

ariosto · 05-01-2003, 08:38 AM

<< I don't think you appreciate the magnitude of how Duncan changes the game. What other player in the league (not named Shaq) demands constant double-teams (even triple-teams) the way Duncan does? The Suns have one goal in mind: make somebody...anybody...other than Duncan beat you. They're betting their entire post season that the Spurs don't have anyone else who can step it up. The Lakers did that to the Spurs last year. That's the reason Duncan's not scoring as much. He's being forced to pass out of the double teams. >>

I'm not trying to bash Duncan. I'm only saying that I no longer think that he's head and shoulders above Dirk and KG. He definitely commands double triple teams. But he doesn't totally change the game because of them. Here are some numbers:

1. Duncan is averaging 4.2 assists per game in the series. This is pretty good but only up 0.3 from his season average. His scoring is way down from the season, so he is not turning those additional double teams into assists.

2. The other Spurs are shooting only at an awful 37.9%. If Duncan commanding the full attention of the Suns' defense they ought to be shooting at a higher percentage than that.

Again, I'm not bashing Duncan. I'm not even saying he's not the best forward in the game. He just hasn't impressed me personally during the playoffs and I'm not sure anymore whether he is the best.

Murphy3 · 05-01-2003, 08:42 AM

I think you could make a strong case for dirk as the best player in the playoffs so far

TheKid · 05-01-2003, 09:21 AM

Well as terrible of a shooter as Iverson is, I WOULD TAKE HIM BEFORE ANYONE of the Mavs guards right now!!!! And everyone knows how I love Fin, and I'd take him before him too.. Come to think of it, there really isn't any shooting guard in the West I'd take before Iverson with the acception of Kobe, however people seem to put Nash, Francis and others as their top guards...

Murphy3 · 05-01-2003, 09:46 AM

i have nash and iverson close on my top players list..but, iverson is probabl slightly ahead of him IMO.

Of course, that's based upon the past few seasons as a whole...not just the playoffs. If we were looking just at the playoffs, I'd take alot people before any of our guards

TVI · 05-02-2003, 12:43 AM

<< 1. Duncan is averaging 4.2 assists per game in the series. This is pretty good but only up 0.3 from his season average. His scoring is way down from the season, so he is not turning those additional double teams into assists. >>

You make an interesting point, but this is a clear case where the numbers don't tell the whole story. Without watching the games, it's not always easy to tell from the box scores how much Duncan dominates the game. There's actually a very good reason why his assists are not significantly higher.

The Spurs don't play the two-man game ala Shaq/Kobe or Stockton/Malone. If you watch them, they are pretty disciplined about rotating the ball all the way around the perimeter, to the least-covered man. That's why Bruce Bowen led the league in 3pt fg%. He's always the corner man on the weak side, and he gets tons of wide-open looks. When Duncan passes out of the double team, the ball almost always swings to at least one other guy around the perimeter. That ball movement was a big part of the Spurs' success this year.

<< 2. The other Spurs are shooting only at an awful 37.9%. If Duncan commanding the full attention of the Suns' defense they ought to be shooting at a higher percentage than that. >>

A lot of that poor shooting is coming from Parker, who (for whatever reason) has a lot of trouble playing against Marbury. Also, the rest of the team draws energy from Duncan. When he's scoring easily, the other guys shoot with much more confidence. Phoenix's game plan is probably the best way to beat the Spurs, but if the other guys sack up an hit shots, the Spurs will destroy anyone they play.

<< Again, I'm not bashing Duncan. I'm not even saying he's not the best forward in the game. He just hasn't impressed me personally during the playoffs and I'm not sure anymore whether he is the best. >>

It's cool. I'm just trying to offer some insight here that can only come from watching every game.

Good discussion!

The Crippler · 05-02-2003, 01:10 AM

Allen Iverson, while not one of my favorites, is a straight up baller. Dirk is top 4 though skills wise and top 5 overall.

Skills...
T-Mac (the best, and no one can hold his jock.)
Kobe (hate him, but can play)
Duncan (big fundamental...bball is still about the fundamentals)
Dirk (rising with a bullet, 7 footer can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants)

Dominance...
Shaq (no one can argue)
Kobe (sorry, but til someone knocks them off...)
AI (can take over a game and win it by himself)
Duncan (fundamentals...again)
Dirk (can't stop him no matter what happens. If he wants to drop 30, he will)
KG