The redesign

[chumdawg]

Dude, there are probably always going to be some teams who have little enough salary enough committed that they can pay a nice price to a free agent. Give it a year, right?, and Charlotte joins this fray. Anyone who would trade for KVH would join this fray, presumably. I wouldn't worry too much about the market for buyers drying up.

People talk a lot about payroll, but they don't talk much about revenues. I'd be very interested in seeing the other side of that coin.

[Misfit Mav]

Originally posted by: chumdawg


People talk a lot about payroll, but they don't talk much about revenues. I'd be very interested in seeing the other side of that coin.

This might help:

NBA FRANCHISE VALUES Rank Team 2004 Value 2003 Value % of Debt Revenues Income
1 Los Angeles Lakers $510.0 $447.0 11.0 170.0 35.8
2 New York Knicks $494.0 $401.0 51.0 170.0 -14.3
3 Dallas Mavericks $374.0 $338.0 39.0 117.0 -33.6
4 Houston Rockets $369.0 $278.0 19.0 125.0 35.5
5 Chicago Bulls $368.0 $356.0 14.0 123.0 36.8
6 Detroit Pistons $363.0 $284.0 0.0 121.0 23.0
7 Phoenix Suns $356.0 $282.0 56.0 111.0 20.1
8 Philadelphia 76ers $342.0 $328.0 28.0 107.0 7.2
9 Boston Celtics $334.0 $290.0 54.0 104.0 25.4
10 Sacramento Kings $330.0 $275.0 25.0 118.0 0.6
11 San Antonio Spurs $324.0 $283.0 40.0 108.0 26.7
12 Indiana Pacers $311.0 $280.0 16.0 104.0 2.6
13 Cleveland Cavaliers $298.0 $258.0 10.0 93.0 21.9
14 Toronto Raptors $297.0 $249.0 37.0 100.0 5.4
15 New Jersey Nets $296.0 $244.0 51.0 93.0 -7.4
16 Minnesota Timberwolves $291.0 $230.0 17.0 97.0 -20.0
17 Miami Heat $279.0 $236.0 66.0 93.0 18.6
18 Washington Wizards $273.0 $274.0 40.0 94.0 21.5
19 Denver Nuggets $268.0 $218.0 19.0 89.0 25.2
20 Utah Jazz $257.0 $239.0 11.0 88.0 27.5
21 Portland Trail Blazers $247.0 $272.0 53.0 88.0 -47.0
22 Memphis Grizzlies $238.0 $227.0 38.0 75.0 -4.1
23 Atlanta Hawks $232.0 $202.0 31.0 83.0 4.7
24 Golden State Warriors $228.0 $188.0 33.0 76.0 8.1
25 New Orleans Hornets $225.0 $216.0 44.0 80.0 17.1
26 Los Angeles Clippers $224.0 $208.0 0.0 77.0 22.4
27 Orlando Magic $218.0 $199.0 28.0 78.0 12.2
28 Seattle SuperSonics $205.0 $196.0 44.0 73.0 0.5
29 Milwaukee Bucks $199.0 $174.0 20.0 77.0 4.8

*** Data sourced from FORBES Magazine's annual Franchise valuations list.


Looks like Dallas loses the second most annually (after Portland), but has built a very valuable franchise if there is an eventual sale.

[chumdawg]

Don't forget that the Mavericks own 50% of the AAC (Center Operating Co.), which by all accounts is a profitable enterprise. In fact, that company probably owns a good portion of the Dallas Mavericks' debt.

[chumdawg]

Also note that the franchises are increasing in value by about 10% (or more?) per year. Also note that the actual selling prices of these franchises is historically even greater. I believe Sarver paid $410MM for his interest in the Suns last year (or was it the year before?). And I think the price for the expansion franchise was $300MM, which compares admirably to the lesser-priced franchises on that list.

My guess is that you would have to look pretty hard to find anyone who lost money owning an NBA team.

[GP]

I'm on record as saying that I didn't think the Mavs should waive Finley. However, that was before David Lord informed us that the luxury tax will always be in effect. Couple that with the another rule that Cuban would get a rebate on 1/2 of the salary past the minimum (or something like that) and you have a must waive situation. For Cuban to say that he might trade Finley is really disingenuous because waiving Finley means not having to pay the luxury tax plus getting a rebate on the salary. I can't see any other way around it.

Frankly, Fin has been a terrific player for the Mavs; however, it is probably time to cut bait and move in a different direction. I would be happy if they just signed both Powell and Rice to sit at the end of the bench and play spot minutes. Powell has allegedly improved dramatically and his athleticism has really improved as well. All good teams have guys like him. Guys who played in the CBA or the NBDL and earned their due. I don't know much about the guy but what I read has been very positive. What I do know that is that many good ballplayers from the U.S. are not getting their chance because of the influx of Euro's and high schoolers in the draft. I still think a team needs to be built with a majority of American players. Some of these guys just need to grow up a bit and mature some.

If it is true that minimum salaries don't count against the luxury tax then I think the Mavs should try to get Alan Houston when he comes available. That is if he is healthy enough to play and the Mavs want a guy who has played in big games, performed well in the playoffs, and shoots the ball as well as anyone in the league. I know people on this board act like he's the second coming of a pile of crap, but that is not what he really is. He is really a damned fine ballplayer who was before his injury light years better than Finley.

If the Mavs release Finley and keep everything the same than the Mavs should look like this:

Terry/Harris
Daniels/Stackhouse
Howard
Dirk/Van Horn/Henderson
Dampier/Pavel/DJ

Maybe's: Rice, Powell

As you can see the Mavs will definitely need a guy like Finley who can shoot well and play either SG or SF. However, it isn't a position that is falling apart or in dire straits. I think Daniels, Stack and Howard are a very solid group for that swing position. Terry can also play SG alongside Harris. The Mavs might also be able to resign someone like Armstrong for insurance. The big weakness on this team is as usual Center. No credible backup unless Pavel continues to improve. His 15 & 7 outing is really promising. I'd hope that he could play all year in the NBDL, but unless the Mavs can sign someone he is going to have to play this year. Apparently, DJ isn't good enough right now. It just seems that AJ is disenfranchised with him or something. Maybe its tough love.

Rice and Powell may be able to provide the Mavs everything the Mavs need afterall, the Mavs have a very SOLID core group of players. It ain't like the Mavs are going to be a 20 win team this year. 55 sounds reasonable to me. The Mavs just might have to take a small step back this year in order to make that giant leap forward that we all hope they do. I sincerely hope that Cuban is through chasing the big names or the hot names and has found some hip pocket religion as well as the understanding that having an all-star at every position is not feasible. He's already got the superstar. What he needs now is complementary players that know their roles and sacrifice stats, body, fame, etc. to make the team better. The Mavs don't need any more guys like Walker (and even Jamison to some extent) that was a big name because he pursued the stats instead of the wins.

[sike]

"We're not saddled with guys on the roster who don't want to come to practice. That's a problem. That's a disadvantage."

who is this in refrence to...TAW???

[DubOverdose]

Originally posted by: sike

who is this in refrence to...TAW???

It better be just him.

[green14552]

quick guess...if Dallas can sign themselves a "big" ,Mbenga and PPod travel around with the NBDL squad...for all we know Dallas may be looking into keeping both of these guys...

Josh Powell should get an invite into training camp...as far as the rest we really won't have any idea until the middle of August or something when everything has died down and the attention turns to football

[grndmstr_c]

For Cuban to say that he might trade Finley is really disingenuous because waiving Finley means not having to pay the luxury tax plus getting a rebate on the salary. I can't see any other way around it.

There are definitely trade scenarios that would make sense for the Mavs. Take the AD/Piatkowski deal that's been mentioned. If the Mavs made that trade and kept both players, their total expenditures for the contracts taken in return for Mike's contract would be 34 million (17 million salary, 17 million tax for one year). By comparison, waiving Finley would still leave the Mavs with a roughly 51 million dollar bill, since they'd still have to pay Fin's salary over the three years. They could get even more salary relief by waiving AD and his expiring contract, though, dropping the total cost of the contracts down to 20 million (14 million for AD's contract, 3 million for Pike's, and 3 million for the taxes on Pike's). That's a savings of over 30 million dollars over what waiving Finley would provide, and a savings of over 80 million relative to keeping Finley, and they get a deadeye shooter off the bench in Piatkowski..

A less financially ambitious example would be Mashburn/McKie. If the Mavs made that trade and then waived Mashburn they'd be on the hook for a total of 21 million on Mashburn's two year deal, plus 39 million for McKie's 3 year deal and the associated taxes for a total of 60 million, which would be roughly equilvalent to waiving Fin, and then signing McKie to a three year deal paying him 1.5 million a year before taxes. Again, to me, that makes a pretty fair amount of sense from the Mavs perspective.

Of course, they've got to find a team who thinks this sort of deal makes sense from their perspective, as well, but Cuban's not being remotely disengnuous when he says they're looking to trade Fin. Given the right deal I'm sure he'd absolutely love to be able to move him in a trade (and don't forget in a trade Cuban gets to determine where Fin goes; if Fin's waived he can sign with any contender he wants).

[grndmstr_c]

Oh, I see what you are getting at. You are saying that expenditures were going up regardless. That's true. But the fact remains that cutting Finley is cutting expenditures. No way around that. It is what it is.

But what it isn't doing is cutting expenditures below the level they were already at. It's not Cuban all of a sudden deciding to be a cheapskate. And that, in essence, is why all the bashing of Cuban for considering waiving Fin is really just completely off the mark, if you'll pardon the pun. I for one do not see any reason to begrudge the guy for blinking when he's handed a piece of paper that says his payroll is instantly going to increase by perhaps 20% or more above it's already nearly league-leading level.

Are you suggesting that the Mavs have no choice BUT to cut Finley? Because I'm only looking at the things they have control over. If expenditures are going up due to circumstances beyond their control, that doesn't have anything to do with Fin.

No. Reading into the moves the mavs have made the last couple years I expect the payroll is pretty close to as high as it's going to get, so I'd be surprised if something wasn't done to lower it. But as I suggested in my last post, trading Fin could turn out to be a much better move than waiving him. As for the CBA changes not having anything to do with Fin, I disagree in that any rule that affects what it's going to cost Cuban to keep his players has everything to do with every player, including Fin.

[Misfit Mav]

Originally posted by: chumdawg
Also note that the franchises are increasing in value by about 10% (or more?) per year. Also note that the actual selling prices of these franchises is historically even greater. I believe Sarver paid $410MM for his interest in the Suns last year (or was it the year before?). And I think the price for the expansion franchise was $300MM, which compares admirably to the lesser-priced franchises on that list.

My guess is that you would have to look pretty hard to find anyone who lost money owning an NBA team.

Oh, I agree. I wasn't implying that Mark is a poor investor or even that he will lose money by posting those figures. He turned a franchise that probably would have ranked near the Bobcats into one that is up there with the Knicks and Lakers. The most you could say about his expenditure is that it was somewhat risky, since he loses money annually. But as an investment, I expect it will pay off big time.

[Misfit Mav]

However, one thing that list does show is that to build a valuable franchise you have to win. And that's why I don't think Mark is intent on slashing payroll and doesn't care if the team falters. If the team goes back to the lottery, the overall value of the franchise drops way down on the list.

[madape]

Originally posted by: Misfit Mav
Oh, I agree. I wasn't implying that Mark is a poor investor or even that he will lose money by posting those figures. He turned a franchise that probably would have ranked near the Bobcats into one that is up there with the Knicks and Lakers. The most you could say about his expenditure is that it was somewhat risky, since he loses money annually. But as an investment, I expect it will pay off big time.

Nothing irritates me more than when people try to make this point. Mark had nothing to do with aquiring Dirk. He had nothing to do with Nash. He had nothing to do with Finley. Furthermore, he had nothing to do with the new stadium, which drives a good portion of the teams market valuation.

In other words, Mark Cuban had nothing to do with any of the reasons why this franchise went from being one of the worst NBA organizations to one of the best. That distinction goes to Don Nelson for aquiring championship level talent, and to Ross Perot Jr. for getting the stadium deal done with the city of Dallas.

Since he's taken over, Cuban has run off Nelson, dumped Finey and Nash for nothing in return, and turned one of the worlds most state-of-the art venues into the leagues third worst place to watch an NBA game (according to USA Today).

[madape]

Furthermore, Cuban paid $285M for the Mavericks in 2000, which was probably more than the market value of about 80% of NBA franchises at the time. According to Forbes, the Mavericks were valued at around $167M at the time Cuban purchased them.

[Misfit Mav]

Originally posted by: madape

Nothing irritates me more than when people try to make this point. Mark had nothing to do with aquiring Dirk. He had nothing to do with Nash. He had nothing to do with Finley. Furthermore, he had nothing to do with the new stadium, which drives a good portion of the teams market valuation.

In other words, Mark Cuban had nothing to do with any of the reasons why this franchise went from being one of the worst NBA organizations to one of the best. That distinction goes to Don Nelson for aquiring championship level talent, and to Ross Perot Jr. for getting the stadium deal done with the city of Dallas.

Since he's taken over, Cuban has run off Nelson, dumped Finey and Nash for nothing in return, and turned one of the worlds most state-of-the art venues into the leagues third worst place to watch an NBA game (according to USA Today).

You and Chumdawg seem to be making different points. CD seems to think (I hope I'm not mischaracterizing your opinions, CD) that Mark spent money to bring the franchise out of the doldrums, but now that it is a valuable team he is cutting costs and is going to reap the benefits. Madape, your view seems to be that Mark is just an incompetant owner who is currently ruining the team that Don Nelson built. I think Chumdawg's perspective is the more realistic of the two, although I'll grant that Nelson was a huge part of building a winning team in Dallas. I think he and Cuban raised the profile and value of the franchise.

I'm not a big Cuban fan, but I'm not a big Cuban basher either. I don't think, like some might (although probably not many any more) that he is a saviour with endless pockets that will fund a championship team. I do think he's in it to make money. However, I don't think he's out to screw anyone over. I do think he really wants a winning team, at least in part because a winning team is a more valuable team, and he stands to profit immensely if Dallas becomes a championship winner.

[dude1394]

Well actually 'ape seems to have the facts to back up his claim. Probably would have to give cubes credit for NOT firing nelson when he first got here. Took him a few years to get around to it (cheap shot).

[grndmstr_c]

Ape and facts are coincidental bedfellows, at best. Witness the following:

Since he's taken over, Cuban has run off Nelson, dumped Finey and Nash for nothing in return,

For one thing, it's very debatable whether Nash was "dumped" seeing as it was Nash's decision to leave just as much as it was Mark's decision not to match Phoenix's offer. And then there's the little problem of Finley still being a Maverick at the moment.

And those issues with his "facts" aside, it's just as moronic to refuse Cuban his due for the success the Mavs have enjoyed as it would be to give him all the credit. Cuban's willingness to spend may not be the only reason the Mavs are near the top of the NBA each year, but it's damn sure one of the reasons.

[Nash13]

Nothing irritates me more than when people try to make this point. Mark had nothing to do with aquiring Dirk. He had nothing to do with Nash. He had nothing to do with Finley. Furthermore, he had nothing to do with the new stadium, which drives a good portion of the teams market valuation.

He may not have been the person that brought them here, but he's certainly the one that kept them, at least two of them. He sign Dirk to an extension, giving Shawn Bradley his contract, and he's the one who gave Finley that big contract. Don't be as naive to think those player's wouldn't have left if they had a better offer, see Nash.

In other words, Mark Cuban had nothing to do with any of the reasons why this franchise went from being one of the worst NBA organizations to one of the best. That distinction goes to Don Nelson for aquiring championship level talent, and to Ross Perot Jr. for getting the stadium deal done with the city of Dallas.

So it was Don Nelson who tried to make deals to better our team in the offseasons, and Mark Cuban who sat on a beach in Hawaii and got drunk. It's Don Nelson who gives out free tickets and answers daily fan emails. I have to remember these things.

Since he's taken over, Cuban has run off Nelson, dumped Finey and Nash for nothing in return, and turned one of the worlds most state-of-the art venues into the leagues third worst place to watch an NBA game (according to USA Today).

Nelson retired due to he and his wife's personal injuries. Nash is a sellout who suckered Pheonix into giving him a fifth year. It's not decided on what will happen with Finley(who's not that hard to replace). And if the AAC is one of the worst places to watch a game, then it wouldn't sellout 159 times, or however many it is.

[HexNBA]

the only way madape will like cuban is if cubes updates his blog to profess his love for george w bush

[Popeye]

There's not one owner in the league that wouldn't of re-signed Dirk to a max contract at the time he got it.

[madape]

Originally posted by: Popeye
There's not one owner in the league that wouldn't of re-signed Dirk to a max contract at the time he got it.

No kidding. Heaping praise on Cuban for re-signing Dirk is like heaping praise on your dog for taking a dump outside. Sure, it's great that he did it. But if he had done anything differently, I'd be screaming bloody murder.

Look what Cuban's done with his other big-name free agents-

1) He overpaid Finley by so much that he had to cut him so save money four years later.
2) He lost Steve Nash for nothing to a conference rival, where he played so damned well he won the MVP and bounced the Mavs from the playoffs.

I won't even get into the Raef LaFrentz, Erick Dampier, Raja Bell and other gaffs this team has made specifically because of our incompetent owner.

I'd like someone to give me one good example of how Cuban's money has helped this team. Give me one free agent he's wooed from another team with bags of cash that has been worth a damn.

I attribute 90% of the Mavericks success over the last 6 years to four people: Nash, Finley, Dirk, and Nelson.

The only credit I'll give Cuban is that he DID re-sign most of those guys when their contracts came up, but those moves came years ago. Over the past 12 months, Cuban has lost all credit with me.

[Misfit Mav]

I have a hard time disagreeing with Madape about some of those contracts. But I'll say it again, there are two separate arguments against Cuban going on right now: 1) He's just in it for the money and doesn't care about team success, 2) He just sucks at running a team. Let's take a look at some of Cuban's financial/basketball decisions:

1. Resigned Dirk to the max. Great move, but as it's just been pointed out, basically a no-brainer.
2. Signed Fin to the max. Looking like a pretty bad move right now, but I think most probably supported it when it happened.
3. Took on Nick Van Exel and Raef LaFrentz rather than let the Juwon Howard contract expire. Not the move of a penny pincher, but not necessarily a really smart basketball move either, although Nick helped the team.
4. Signed Raef to a near-max contract. Considering that they traded him the next summer, and Raef is considered overpaid these days, seems like a pretty bad move.
5. Refused to sign Nash to a near-max contract. This is still a fresh wound, so it gets debated here a lot. Considering what happened this season, it looks to me like a blunder of epic proportions. I expect it won't sting so badly in a few seasons, but from my perspective it was a disaster.
6. Signed Dampier to a very large contract, almost exactly the same as the Raef contract. I like Damp here, but it does seem like overpayment for a role-player.
7. Traded for Keith Van Horn rather than let Hendu's contract expire. Seems like a good move so far.

The odd thing about it is that almost every bad move on the list involved overpaying some player, except for Nash, who is unquestionably the best player there except for Dirk. It seems incredibly stupid to put your foot down when dealing with the second best player on your team (who wasn't even asking for the max!) So yeah, thinking it over, I think its fair to accuse Cuban of a record of poor basketball and financial decisions. However, the team has had a lot of success in spite of those mistakes, so I don't think it is fair to consider Cuban an outright terrible owner like Daniel Snyder, Donald Sterling, or James Dolan.

[Misfit Mav]

Originally posted by: madape

I attribute 90% of the Mavericks success over the last 6 years to four people: Nash, Finley, Dirk, and Nelson.

I would add Little Whistle to that list, who seems to have been the driving force behind some of the great drafts we've had lately.

[chumdawg]

It's not about money. It's about flexibility.

Everybody knows that.

Goddangit, you have to LOVE to Mavs' flexibility! I'd be willing to venture that if they ranked the 30 NBA teams on flexibility, or potential flexibility or whatever you want to call it, the Mavs would be right up near the top. It's a darn good thing they didn't handcuff themselves with the Nash contract. Now we will be able to get a real point guard...for cheap if we want to!

Some might say that talent and coaching win in this NBA. Screw that. Give me some flexibility any day. NO telling what we can do with flexibility! I bet we probably get LeBron in a couple years! Mavs fans: KEEP THE FAITH!!!

[grndmstr_c]

You guys crack me up. I've never seen such a sad batch of belly aching. You deserve to be fans of a losing team. I can only hope the basketball gods wait to punish you until you've shifted your allegiances to some other team out of shame at having spent so much time walking around with your heads up your own @$$e$ blaming everyone but yourselves for the smell.

[sike]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
You guys crack me up. I've never seen such a sad batch of belly aching. You deserve to be fans of a losing team. I can only hope the basketball gods wait to punish you until you've shifted your allegiances to some other team out of shame at having spent so much time walking around with your heads up your own @$$e$ blaming everyone but yourselves for the smell.

quickly becoming the best poster we've got...

I too am getting tired of all the silliness the board has been spewing...

maybe they just need to lock the Mavs section until some actual news goes down... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
You guys crack me up. I've never seen such a sad batch of belly aching. You deserve to be fans of a losing team. I can only hope the basketball gods wait to punish you until you've shifted your allegiances to some other team out of shame at having spent so much time walking around with your heads up your own @$$e$ blaming everyone but yourselves for the smell.

GMC, if you're suggesting that the Mavs will without question remain in the top four in the conference, I'll be happy to bet you...oh, let's say $200. If you want to put your money where your invective is, that is. I'm more than happy to put my money where mine is. What do you say? How about we bet $200 each. The winner gets $100 and D-M.com gets the other $100. You game? I'm willing to wager that the Mavs can't nail down the four seed next year.

If my criticism is so laughable, I should think that you would be happy to take the wager. I'm willing to lower the stakes, if that would make you more comfortable.

The only smell I'm picking up is coming from the local basketball team.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

come on Chum, I think what GMC is saying is that the Mavs have, at the least, been competing year in and year out. It's understandable to take it for granted, but I think GMC has a point. Nothing is worse [in sports], imo, than a bunch of spoiled fans. Take Boston fans for example, they can have the Patriots winning ten straight games en route to a superbowl, but if you listen to their sports talk, you'll hear call after call talking about how the sky is falling. Why can't the Patriots blow out teams? And I don't want to even start with the Redsox or Celtics. Point is, no, I don't think we should be content with the 'close but no cigar', but it would be nice if we could keep some perspective when we have one of the best power forwards in the game entering his prime.

you two are two of the better posters on this board. And I don't really want to watch a riff between you guys. Let's have peace. You both can just give me $100. ( ;p

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: chumdawg

If I hear one more time that we won six more games, I think I'm gonna throw up a little in my mouth. Let's use '02 and '03 as the yardsticks. Obviously, you can throw '04 out. But yes, we did have a nice regular season last year. So did a whole bunch of other teams.

Chum, give me a f*cking break. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that if we don't had a wide variety of injuries, if KVH is on the roster all-season, and if the team is under AJ from day one, that we would probably win two more games. I guess we just disagree on this, but I'll take Jerry Stackhouse, Jason Terry, Devin Harris, Marquis Daniels, Erick Dampier, Josh Howard, and Keith Van Horn over Steve Nash, Nick Van Exel, Raja Bell, Adrian Griffin, Raef LaFrentz, Walt Williams, Even Eschmeyer, and Antoine Rigadeau. So, using the 02-03 team as the yardstick, this team still comes out ahead IMO (although I'll conceit that could change once Finley is gone) Sure, we got to the WCF, but I'm of the opinion that if C-Webb hadn't gone out, we would've lost in the second round, just like this year. And I'm also of the opinion that if Dirk hadn't gone out, we still would've lost to the Spurs, so don't mention that either. Let's also not forget that the Spurs are much deeper now than they were in 03. The only real advantage the 03 team had over the current one is Nash. Stack, KVH, and the rest totally outweigh the Van Exel advantage IMO. The 03 team had 4 good players, and a bunch of aging, overpaid roleplayers. No defense, and no bench (aside from Nick of course) Honestly! IMO the current team would absolutely destroy the 02-03 team.

[chumdawg]

JL, I don't mean ill will by any means. But I take objection to the suggestion that in the last couple years things have done anything but get worse. In my way of thinking, last year (and probably the year before) was a horrendous one for lifelong Mavs fans, and this year looks to be making things even worse.

Will anyone come back to this thread in ten months, when we go 48-34? No, they won't. But apparently it's blasphemy to suggest that this team, THAT WON SIX MORE GAMES THIS YEAR THAN IT DID THE YEAR BEFORE. might fall off this year. If so, paint me blasphemous. I'll be keeping an eye on the opening lines for the over/under win totals for the NBA. I expect the Mavs to come in around 55 or so. And I'll be betting that under quite heavily.

Your point, JLEE, is exactly what bothers me. So many fans are going to accept this team, no matter what it looks like, if it is Dirk and eleven warm bodies. Yeah, well, KG had some warm bodies beside him, too. And that is all I have to say about that.

I'm keeping an open mind. I really am. If the Mavs make some nice moves this offseason, I'll be satisfied. If they merely keep Fin, I'll be satisfied. But if they lose Fin and get nothing in return, then I do not mind in the least being on the front line of those who tell the current management that they can get effed.

Hey, somebody has to.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

To me, minnesota's 04-05 downfall rest soley on relying on aging veterans to supplement their superstar. Not that I support getting rid of Finley (I'll probably always be one of his biggest fans), but I think with all the money issues this team has, the fact that we have Stackhouse and we have Daniels waiting just for more playing time -- it is within reason for the Mavs to waive or trade Finley without looking like a team ready to fall into mediocrity. I agree that the management needs to use this summer very wisely. They have their superstar reaching his prime, and I would hate for them to screw up these next four years. I also agree that we, as fans, should not be content with our team merely competeing each year. I just don't think I'm ready to jump into the "run off the management" mode...yet.

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: Thespiralgoeson

Chum, give me a f*cking break. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that if we don't had a wide variety of injuries, if KVH is on the roster all-season, and if the team is under AJ from day one, that we would probably win two more games. I guess we just disagree on this, but I'll take Jerry Stackhouse, Jason Terry, Devin Harris, Marquis Daniels, Erick Dampier, Josh Howard, and Keith Van Horn over Steve Nash, Nick Van Exel, Raja Bell, Adrian Griffin, Raef LaFrentz, Walt Williams, Even Eschmeyer, and Antoine Rigadeau. So, using the 02-03 team as the yardstick, this team still comes out ahead IMO (although I'll conceit that could change once Finley is gone) Sure, we got to the WCF, but I'm of the opinion that if C-Webb hadn't gone out, we would've lost in the second round, just like this year. And I'm also of the opinion that if Dirk hadn't gone out, we still would've lost to the Spurs, so don't mention that either. Let's also not forget that the Spurs are much deeper now than they were in 03. The only real advantage the 03 team had over the current one is Nash. Stack, KVH, and the rest totally outweigh the Van Exel advantage IMO. The 03 team had 4 good players, and a bunch of aging, overpaid roleplayers. No defense, and no bench (aside from Nick of course) Honestly! IMO the current team would absolutely destroy the 02-03 team.

Spiral, it pains me to hear you run down that team from '03 does. It really, serioously pains me.

I will grant you that if KVH had been healthy, who knows how things might have panned out. But I hope that you will forgive me if I prefer Nash's coldblooded marksmanship to Terry's deer-in-the-headlights-what-do-I-do-now defense.

I hope you will forgive me if I prefer Adrian Griffin's and Raja Bell's leave-it-on-the-court mentality to Jerry Stackhouse's take-it-up-the-court-with-blinders-on-as-if-you-are-the-primary-scoring-option mentality.

I hope you will forgive me if I'm not that enamored of Erick Dampier's foul-a-minute playoff strategy as opposed to the rotation of LaFrenz, Bradley, and Najera, the latter of which I see you neglected to mention.

I hope you will forgive me if I prefer the Wizard's three-point touch, as in that playoff series against a VERY good Kings team, to Marquis Daniels's hitting the front of the rim.

Don't talk to me about Webber's knee. This is the same Webber that particpated in the record 83-point half the Mavs hung on the Kings? And while I'm not someone to hang my hat on our own injuries, I will remind you that our full-strength team marched into San Antonio and defeated a well-rested team in Game One on their own home court.

I have always said that Sacramento's window was closing, and rapidly. It is clear to me that Dallas's window is closing just as fast. I'm not happy about it. I wish it weren't the case. But it most certainly is.

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: JLEEHASMUCHGAME
To me, minnesota's 04-05 downfall rest soley on relying on aging veterans to supplement their superstar. Not that I support getting rid of Finley (I'll probably always be one of his biggest fans), but I think with all the money issues this team has, the fact that we have Stackhouse and we have Daniels waiting just for more playing time -- it is within reason for the Mavs to waive or trade Finley without looking like a team ready to fall into mediocrity. I agree that the management needs to use this summer very wisely. They have their superstar reaching his prime, and I would hate for them to screw up these next four years. I also agree that we, as fans, should not be content with our team merely competeing each year. I just don't think I'm ready to jump into the "run off the management" mode...yet.

Well, JLEE, I can only say that I think the current roster will sruggle to make the playoffs. The current roster without Fin, that is. And I'm not kidding.

[Thespiralgoeson]

[quote]
Originally posted by: chumdawg

Spiral, it pains me to hear you run down that team from '03 does. It really, serioously pains me.

I will grant you that if KVH had been healthy, who knows how things might have panned out. But I hope that you will forgive me if I prefer Nash's coldblooded marksmanship to Terry's deer-in-the-headlights-what-do-I-do-now defense.

I clearly said that Nash was an advantage the 03 team has over this team.

I hope you will forgive me if I prefer Adrian Griffin's and Raja Bell's leave-it-on-the-court mentality to Jerry Stackhouse's take-it-up-the-court-with-blinders-on-as-if-you-are-the-primary-scoring-option mentality.

I'll take Josh Howard over Raja Bell, and I'll take Stack over Griff. But that's just me.

I hope you will forgive me if I'm not that enamored of Erick Dampier's foul-a-minute playoff strategy as opposed to the rotation of LaFrenz, Bradley, and Najera, the latter of which I see you neglected to mention.

You're talking about Damp's "foul-a-minute strategy" and you have the balls to bring up Raef LaFrentz? Bradley was on the roster last year, correct? And I love Najera as much as anyone, but the guy just had a nice attitude. He didn't actually make a damn bit of difference on the court. Regardless, I'll take KVH over Eddie any day.

I hope you will forgive me if I prefer the Wizard's three-point touch, as in that playoff series against a VERY good Kings team, to Marquis Daniels's hitting the front of the rim.

Touche, but I'll take Marquis' youth and potential over the Wizard's age.

Don't talk to me about Webber's knee. This is the same Webber that particpated in the record 83-point half the Mavs hung on the Kings?

I remember that game like it was yesterday. Great game, but it was just one game. The Kings were better defensively, and much much deeper. Webber was out for the rest of the series, and we still fought them tooth and nail. It still took every ounce of strength we had to beat a team that was missing their best player.

I have always said that Sacramento's window was closing, and rapidly. It is clear to me that Dallas's window is closing just as fast. I'm not happy about it. I wish it weren't the case. But it most certainly is.

I can't say I agree. Sacramento's window was closing because C-Webb was in decline, as well as the fact that he and Peja didn't get along. Losing Nash is one thing, but I really don't see our window closing because we're losing Michael Finley.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

Thinking about losing Finley concerns me most when I consider how Dirk will respond with the spotlight soley on him. He won't have the Finley suck safety net to fall into anymore. He won't have Finley's fire when it comes to competition. I hope Cuban doesn't underestimate these qualities that huge contract brings for the Mavs. As much as I do want to see Dirk being "the man", I don't want to see Dirk becoming more emotionally unstable as he seemed during this year's playoffs. We'll see.

[alby]

In the west, there will be many teams that will probably be better this upcoming season. Denver picking up Mobley and being under George Karl for a full year, Phil Kobe and LA, the Suns big offseason if they resign Joe Johnson..

I guess the dropoffs would be Seattle and maybe Dallas.

Sacramento is a big question mark.

Houston I'm not quite sure.

Portland isn't going anywhere.

The Spurs are always among the elite.

Teams like the Warriors and Clippers will be better than a year ago and you expect Jerry Sloan in Utah to comeback since he has a pg now.

Dallas needs to do something, or else we will fall to the middle of the pack. It is a fact.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

That's true, alby, the west is getting better. And the Mavs do need to make a move or two to keep up, especially, if they lose Finley. Memphis, Denver, Seattle, and Phoenix are almost givens in the coming year. The Spurs are the Spurs. The Jazz and the Warriors will certainly try to get into the mix. And I haven't even mentioned the Lakers and the Wolves. I agree that the Mavs need to make some type of move to solidify their place in the "given" category. Otherwise, I could see them struggling to make the playoffs.

Paul Pierce, anyone?

Oh, and I forgot those dastardly Rockets.

[alby]

maybe not that farfetched?

i hope..



paul pierce, imo would put us back into that 'given' category
and i love how he has the f' them attitude ala nick van exel.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

Eversince I saw that double P hung 49 points on a team in a second half, I knew the guy was for real. I just can't conceive how they would pull that trade off.

[alby]

Originally posted by: Misfit Mav

This might help:

NBA FRANCHISE VALUES Rank Team 2004 Value 2003 Value % of Debt Revenues Income
1 Los Angeles Lakers $510.0 $447.0 11.0 170.0 35.8
2 New York Knicks $494.0 $401.0 51.0 170.0 -14.3
3 Dallas Mavericks $374.0 $338.0 39.0 117.0 -33.6
4 Houston Rockets $369.0 $278.0 19.0 125.0 35.5
5 Chicago Bulls $368.0 $356.0 14.0 123.0 36.8
6 Detroit Pistons $363.0 $284.0 0.0 121.0 23.0
7 Phoenix Suns $356.0 $282.0 56.0 111.0 20.1
8 Philadelphia 76ers $342.0 $328.0 28.0 107.0 7.2
9 Boston Celtics $334.0 $290.0 54.0 104.0 25.4
10 Sacramento Kings $330.0 $275.0 25.0 118.0 0.6
11 San Antonio Spurs $324.0 $283.0 40.0 108.0 26.7
12 Indiana Pacers $311.0 $280.0 16.0 104.0 2.6
13 Cleveland Cavaliers $298.0 $258.0 10.0 93.0 21.9
14 Toronto Raptors $297.0 $249.0 37.0 100.0 5.4
15 New Jersey Nets $296.0 $244.0 51.0 93.0 -7.4
16 Minnesota Timberwolves $291.0 $230.0 17.0 97.0 -20.0
17 Miami Heat $279.0 $236.0 66.0 93.0 18.6
18 Washington Wizards $273.0 $274.0 40.0 94.0 21.5
19 Denver Nuggets $268.0 $218.0 19.0 89.0 25.2
20 Utah Jazz $257.0 $239.0 11.0 88.0 27.5
21 Portland Trail Blazers $247.0 $272.0 53.0 88.0 -47.0
22 Memphis Grizzlies $238.0 $227.0 38.0 75.0 -4.1
23 Atlanta Hawks $232.0 $202.0 31.0 83.0 4.7
24 Golden State Warriors $228.0 $188.0 33.0 76.0 8.1
25 New Orleans Hornets $225.0 $216.0 44.0 80.0 17.1
26 Los Angeles Clippers $224.0 $208.0 0.0 77.0 22.4
27 Orlando Magic $218.0 $199.0 28.0 78.0 12.2
28 Seattle SuperSonics $205.0 $196.0 44.0 73.0 0.5
29 Milwaukee Bucks $199.0 $174.0 20.0 77.0 4.8

*** Data sourced from FORBES Magazine's annual Franchise valuations list.


Looks like Dallas loses the second most annually (after Portland), but has built a very valuable franchise if there is an eventual sale.

how did the lakers make so much money =p