The top 10 peak pgs.

[V2M]

Originally Posted by sike

and hasn't Bibbly always killed nash....wow...Bibby is a better point guard than Nash and Kidd then...sheesh.

That was my point! Head 2 heads among great players can't be the criteria to decide who's better.

[sike]

Originally Posted by V2M

That was my point! Head 2 heads among great players can't be the criteria to decide who's better.

you ask any coach, "Who would you rather have in his prime, Kidd or Payton?"....and I tell you it takes most of them less than half a second to answer Kidd.

[V2M]

Originally Posted by sike

you ask any coach, "Who would you rather have in his prime, Kidd or Payton?"....and I tell you it takes most of them less than half a second to answer Kidd.

You could be right... I'm no coach, but I'd do the same.

Now the interesting question is how many of 'em would pick Kidd in his prime over Nash in his prime!

[nashtymavsfan13]

Kidd overall is definetly better than Payton.

[Five-ofan]

I dont think you guys are giving payton the credit he deserves. Jkidd was a very good defender but payton was better. Payton was a better scorer and shooter as well. Kidd was a better rebounder and better on the break. Arguments can be made both ways but its not the landslide some of you are acting like it is.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I dont think you guys are giving payton the credit he deserves. Jkidd was a very good defender but payton was better. Payton was a better scorer and shooter as well. Kidd was a better rebounder and better on the break. Arguments can be made both ways but its not the landslide some of you are acting like it is.

It's not a landslide, but Kidd is better.

[Tokey41]

I'd still pick Kidd, I think hes just better overall whereas Payton will always be remembered for his amazing defense and big mouth.

[Five-ofan]

Everyone keeps saying overall. Kidd was a better rebounder, ft shooter, and better on the break. Payton was better at everything else. Thats not a hell of alot for all of the overall talk. Payton ran an offense in the half court better, scored better, and was a good bit better defensively. If anything overall would be a mark in paytons favor.

[Tokey41]

He was better at getting technicals too, does that count?

[Five-ofan]

I think it is truly sad that a player as good as gp will be remembered for hanging on too long and talking too much.

[Tokey41]

We all know he was a great defender, my point is he does have problems keeping the mouth shut, remember this year when he had problems with Wade getting too many touches? They are lucky the team didn't implode there but Shaq put him in his place. Some things never change though, and he just had a hard time letting the all star do his thing, that would be like Stack bitching about Dirk getting too many touches.

Like I said, he will be remembered for his defense, big mouth, and maybe even his chemistry problems. Kidd holds a team together and leads, Payton potentially tears them apart.

[Scoobay]

Originally Posted by Tokey41

We all know he was a great defender, my point is he does have problems keeping the mouth shut, remember this year when he had problems with Wade getting too many touches? They are lucky the team didn't implode there but Shaq put him in his place. Some things never change though, and he just had a hard time letting the all star do his thing, that would be like Stack bitching about Dirk getting too many touches.

Like I said, he will be remembered for his defense, big mouth, and maybe even his chemistry problems. Kidd holds a team together and leads, Payton potentially tears them apart.

so what exactly has Kidd led his team to? nothing more than GP has. I have to agree with 5-0... seems that some people just don't remember GP in his prime. You can argue which you'd rather take but it's a lot closer than some here seem to think and I'm not even sure Kidd comes out on top.

[SeriousSummer]

Mo Cheeks ought to be on the list in place of Gary Payton. Other than that, the ESPN list has it right.

[Five-ofan]

If you are reffering to the argument they had in the bulls series it wasnt about wade getting too many touches. It started with wade yelling at gp because Gp PASSED UP A SHOT. That is nothing like stack. I guarantee you no one has complained about him passing up shots. Then GP basically said look here youngun, Im gary freakin payton ive been playing basketball in the nba since before you picked up a basketball, dont tell me what to do. Then it went from there. The Sonics team that lost to the unbelievable jordan bulls that were the best team in nba history would have DISMANTLED any team that Kidd has ever played on. The only reason that gp doesnt have a ring as the best player on a team is shawn kemps implosion.

[Tokey41]

Kidds best season would probably be 01-02, his stats? 37.3 min, .391 FG, .321 3P, .814 FT, 7.3 REB, 9.9 AST, 2.13 STL, 3.49 TO, 14.7 PPG.

Paytons best season (99-00)? 41.8 min, .448 FG, .340 3P, .735 FT, 6.5 REB, 8.9 AST, 1.87 STL,2.73 TO, 24.2 PPG.

Like I said before... I think I would still go with Kidd because he didnt even need to score to be effective, he was more of what a point guard should be. I gave Payton his props so don't complain about how people dont give him respect. I just dont like those mouthy hot shots that arent even that hot in contrast to other all star caliber players (and sadly the guy still talks trash at this age).

You know Kidd went up against the dynasty Spurs right? They arent the Bulls but considering Kidd was running the team with Kmart besides him (back when people thought he was good) and not much else making it to the finals just to get crushed was impressive. And now that Kmart doesnt have Kidd what happened? Hes terrible, but got a huge contract because of Kidd. Kidd also helps make terribly streaky players look really good, in fact I think Richard Jefferson could be one of those people. Who did Payton help make better?

As for that debate between him and Wade it was clear Payton was in the wrong because all I remember is everyone backing Wade on the topic. Must have been a crucial shot. It stirred up an argument, he stirs up arguments all the time no matter where he is. If he wasnt so old i'd call him a punk, I have more respect for Kidd because at least he doesnt pick up those uneccessary technicals and complain about everything that doesnt go his way.

[Five-ofan]

Everyone backed wade because hes dwayne effing wade. If dirk and Darrel Armstrong get in an argument, everyone better effing side with dirk. As to kidd vs payton, Payton was better at running an offense in the half court. He was a MUCH(this cant be overstated how much) better scorer. Kidd could outrebound him and run a fast break better. Payton was better at literally EVERYTHING else. As for losing in the finals, Payton was on i believe a 63 win sonics team that went through a tough western conference. The nets were only in the finals because the east sucked. Jason kidd was a great player but he was not better than gary payton at his best.

[#1MavsFan]

The numbers don't back up just how good kidd was. You have to watch him to believe it. Kidd always overachieved with lesser talent around him.

[Five-ofan]

He overachieved because he played in a god awful division. If he had stayed in the west we wouldnt be having this discussion. Kidd hasnt had his insane decline yet and we dont know if he will hold on forever like gp did but i would imagine the feelings about this matchup might change after he does.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by Tokey41

...
You know Kidd went up against the dynasty Spurs right? They arent the Bulls but considering Kidd was running the team with Kmart besides him (back when people thought he was good) and not much else making it to the finals just to get crushed was impressive. And now that Kmart doesnt have Kidd what happened? Hes terrible, but got a huge contract because of Kidd. Kidd also helps make terribly streaky players look really good, in fact I think Richard Jefferson could be one of those people. Who did Payton help make better?
...

Wow, Payton going against the team that would've won 8 championships straight (right at the top of the Bulls strength too, the year they won over 70 games) doesn't completely trump Kidd going up against the Spurs for you? Even though Sonics cam ALOT closer to beating the Bulls than the Nets did to beating the Spurs? C'mon now.

I admit that the Manimal was better than K-mart in their respective primes, but trying to argue that the pathetic speciman posing as K-mart indicates that he was never any good without Kidd spoon-feeding him is just whitewashing. Might as well look at the manimal blimp from after Kemp left the Sonics and conclude HE was never any good without Payton either. Kmart certainly has to miss the Kidd passes, but I think its safe to say he misses his knees even more. Lets not forget that he was a number 1 pick, based on his athleticism-- now he would be under CONSIDERATION to use up a team's full MLE. He is not the same player.

After the number-two's you get into the Richard Jefferson vs Detlef territory.... <shrugs>

Personally, I think in their respective primes I'd take Payton (loud mouth and all) over Kidd (wife beating and all), but I can understand why some others would LEAN the other way (like you do toky) but all this "its not even close" baldrdash....? bah.

[Tokey41]

This is just silly now, GP is "holding on" at his age? Look at him, no one wanted to sign him at his age and skill level when he was a FA because he still for god knows what reason thought he was great. Kidd is old right now in case you havent noticed and he is a nightly threat for a triple double. Not to mention he does what a pure pg should be able to do... pass with excellence and make terrible players into weapons. I see Kidd the better leader, by example not by the mouth.

Its pretty simple for me when I look at the twos careers: GP was NOT the soul reason for the Sonics success but Kidd was for the Nets. Kidd had no talent around him and I dont care how you defend Kmart that guy is useless in my book and the SECOND worst contract in the league next to Jerome James, the reason for that contract is Jason Kidd. I dont know how to give you evidence on that besides his craptacular performance in Denver without his bread and butter PG. Who did Payton help make better? Manimal? Are you kidding? Thats his fault he turned into a whale an no one elses... I mean its not like Payton MADE him keep the weight off, but if he did good for him. He was a good offensive talent but when you look at building a good traditional style team you want a pg who has great playmaking skills and makes his team that much better. Steve Nash could be on the Hawks right now and those guys could be having career years, thats my vision of a dream pg... making people better. (Like Stockton helped Malone)

And based on their career best years Payton was not better at everything, even on defense. And you can say all you want with GP losing to the Bulls the fact is he still failed just like Kidd failed against the Spurs. The whole weak conference thing is a little overstated here, I mean when GP was in his prime you could argue the East was on par with the West if not better. They did have the greatest team in history (im not denying that they were) so they were both in weaker divisions in their primes.

[Five-ofan]

Are you really arguing that kidd was as good as gp in his prime defensively? If you are that delusional then the argument is done because you just have no clue how good gp was. As for the players around them, manimal was better than kmart but just like manimal without gp was out of shape, kmart without kidd has been hurt. Gp ran a half court offense better than kidd. THat has always been a big knock on kidd, he isnt a good half court pg. He doesnt run an offense particularly well. He runs a break well. As for being the better passer kidd was slightly better but gp was less turnover prone while scoring more and giving out almost as many assists. Is there an argument for kidd being the better pg in their primes? sure. Is it overwhelming? Not by any stretch.

[Tokey41]

Kmart did have microfracture surgery but good players can come back from it. The ironic thing is that Kidd has come back from this exact surgery and still managed to perform pretty damn well. Why cant Kmart? Because of my reason listed above.

As for the whole defensive thing i'd like to consider rebounds part of that category as well as steals and in their best years Kidd had a little more than GP. I'm not saying he was a better defender overall because I know he wasnt and the stats cant prove that but we both know it anyway. What I am arguing is that I would take Kidd, and i'm sure you would take GP in their prime. I'm also arguing that Kidd was better overall which is where you seem to disagree, and from my argument i've tried to use the stats from their best years to point out that although they are both well rounded Kidd had slightly better stats except with ppg where Payton blew him away. I think since Kidd was so excellent at what he did he didnt have to score to score. I think the obvious comparison is Steve Nash.

I think the fact Kidd has had surgery that has potential to ruin stars careers and survived is inspiring for guys like Amare... and last year? Like I said, even at his age he was still capable of flirting with a triple double and running a team (like VC is really a leader... i'm a TOR follower and I know Vince cant handle that role) and furthermore making it to the playoffs by ending the season on a high note and almost passing Miami for the #2? Thats admirable.

[Five-ofan]

On the age thing, when gp was 32(the age kidd is now), he averaged 23.1 and 8.1. Yes kidd is old but he is not the same age as gp and gp has aged in dog years since he turned 33. The difference between nash and kidd is that nash can score efficiently but doesnt do it alot. Kidd on the other hand flat out cant score efficiently. As to the rebounds, kidd has always been a better rebounder. To debate that would be foolishness on my part. As i said i can see an argument for kidd. I dont agree with it but i can see one. The problem is when people act like kidd was head and shoulders better. If anyone was head and shoulders better it was gp. He had comparable assist numbers with better ast/to ratios while scoring alot more at a much higher percentage and being a better defender all while being better at running a team in the half court. Kidds argument consists solely of being better on the break and rebounding. As to the knee thing, kidds game was never based on athletecism as all of the other people who have had the surgeries games were. I am impressed that he came back from it but getting hurt and overcoming it isnt more impressive than never getting hurt in gps case.