Dirk creates his own brand, breaks out of "Next Bird" label - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

grndmstr_c · 07-17-2006, 12:17 PM

I've been completely ignoring this thread for the most part - the Dirk vs. Bird arguments never fail to irritate me - but I gotta say, for some reason every time I see the thread title highlighted near the top of the forum, for a split second I think it says "Dirk breaks own hand..." Freaks me out every time.

Five-ofan · 07-17-2006, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

He shot poorly from the field but seemed to step up everywhere else. Through game 5 he was averaging 16 boards and 8 dimes a game. They won in 6.

http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19801981.html

I don't think it makes much sense to compare the first Finals for Bird and Dirk. First of all, Bird won and Dirk lost. Secondly Dirk was in his 8th season, and it was only Bird's second.

It's not insulting to not be as good as Larry Bird. He is arguably one of the top 5 players ever.

Dirk is still only 3 years older than bird was in his first finals. People forget how much older bird was when he first hit the nba than dirk was when he did.

kingmalaki · 07-17-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I think Bird's success is largely due to his stellar surrounding cast...if you Put Dirk in the high Octane 80's with the 80's Celts I'm rather certain he would look like even more of a freak than he does today....I would also wager that Bird would look a step slow in the 2006 NBA.

the changing of the game is one of the most significant reasons that it is ultimately unfair to seriously compare players of different eras..

all that being said, Bird is a top 10 player all time. But lets not forget that he had some serious help.

He did have some serious help. But again, all of the 8-'s championship teams were stacked. Talent just wasn't as spread out then. I don't think you can hold that against him when the opposing teams he beat to win had all-star squads too.

Five-ofan · 07-17-2006, 01:15 PM

The biggest difference in the two eras is overall athletecism. People are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo much more athletic than they were then.

sike · 07-17-2006, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

He did have some serious help. But again, all of the 8-'s championship teams were stacked. Talent just wasn't as spread out then. I don't think you can hold that against him when the opposing teams he beat to win had all-star squads too.

so, according to your theory anyway, five all stars on five all stars....seems like it would break down pretty even...I mean you couldn't just design a defense to stop one player...because for certain the other 4 all stars would make you pay. Well, that was true for Bird, other teams could not run three men at him...because his All Star Teammates would not allow it....Dirk on the other hand is not so fortunate...Miami proved that they could design their entire defensive game plan around Dirk...and his teammates did nothing to counter it.

Lucky Bird...poor Dirk.

kingmalaki · 07-17-2006, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

so, according to your theory anyway, five all stars on five all stars....seems like it would break down pretty even...I mean you couldn't just design a defense to stop one player...because for certain the other 4 all stars would make you pay. Well, that was true for Bird, other teams could not run three men at him...because his All Star Teammates would not allow it....Dirk on the other hand is not so fortunate...Miami proved that they could design their entire defensive game plan around Dirk...and his teammates did nothing to counter it.

Lucky Bird...poor Dirk.

I will admit, it is easier to double off Dampier then Parish or McHale. But you must be kidding if you say defenses weren't keyed in on Bird.

I wouldn't exactly say Dirk did anything to counter it either (in the Finals that is). Terry was the best Maverick in that series IMO. Defenses are keyed on star players all the time. Duncan always gets constant attention. So did Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem, etc. The best of the best overcome that and play well. Dirk played pretty bad in the Finals (but great up until that point). I would cut him more slack if he were balling and his teammates didn't step up and they lost, but that wasn't the case.

Back on topic, the main difference between Bird and Dirk to me is leadership and assertiveness. I see Dirk come off the rock too many times in crucial situations. He defers too much. That's the main reason why he isn't on Bird's level to me.

G-Man · 07-18-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Duncan always gets constant attention. So did Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem, etc. The best of the best overcome that and play well.

So basically you're saying Dirk isn't as good as Shaq, Jordan, Duncan and Hakeem. I don't think this is a surprize. Those guys are probably top 10 all time.

I love Dirk to death, but I don't think anyone is seriously claiming he's better than Bird. Dirk is different and has done more to change the game but come on. Bird is top 5 all time. And I don't like him, never did, hated the Celtics because they had him, but he played in a different world, one where only Magic, MJ and Jabbar types dwell.

Dirk is more like Magic, Jabbar and MJ in that he revolutionized his position like they did. Dirk is now the kind of power forward every team in the NBA is looking for, and all the others are cheap imitations. Pao Gasol is to Dirk as Vince Carter is to MJ. A great player who will always be known as the next (MJ) Dirk who wasn't even close to the original. And thats pretty cool. It might get him into the Hall of Fame.

Still doesn't make him better than Bird.

sike · 07-18-2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

I will admit, it is easier to double off Dampier then Parish or McHale.

Understatement alert. Lets not even pretend that the supporting casts are close...because that is reality.

Quote:

But you must be kidding if you say defenses weren't keyed in on Bird.

I didn't say that. But you, yourself said that the Celts were like an allstar team...I would imagine that you would admit that Bird could not receive the same type of attention Dirk received from the Heat in the finals because Bird's teammates were too good to allow that kind of defense to be played on just one guy.

chumdawg · 07-18-2006, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Man

So basically you're saying Dirk isn't as good as Shaq, Jordan, Duncan and Hakeem. I don't think this is a surprize. Those guys are probably top 10 all time.

I love Dirk to death, but I don't think anyone is seriously claiming he's better than Bird. Dirk is different and has done more to change the game but come on. Bird is top 5 all time. And I don't like him, never did, hated the Celtics because they had him, but he played in a different world, one where only Magic, MJ and Jabbar types dwell.

Dirk is more like Magic, Jabbar and MJ in that he revolutionized his position like they did. Dirk is now the kind of power forward every team in the NBA is looking for, and all the others are cheap imitations. Pao Gasol is to Dirk as Vince Carter is to MJ. A great player who will always be known as the next (MJ) Dirk who wasn't even close to the original. And thats pretty cool. It might get him into the Hall of Fame.

Still doesn't make him better than Bird.

It might be worth nothing that the same that happened to Gasol in his playoff series happened to Dirk in the Finals. When the take-it-inside threat was taken away, both were emasculated.

zico · 07-18-2006, 02:58 AM

And you forget that it is also easier to defend when the ball are not moving.
And this dallas team doesn't move the ball.
Harris or Terry, Stackhouse would dribble for many seconds, Dampier and Dirk making screens to open a drive for Harris, Terry Stakhouse. The problem is that the Heat big men were staying in the paint.
That's why I think we will struggle next year. We will not win so many games with late winners from Terry like this year.
Our offense relies so much on one on one that it makes me sick. Not forgetting that we makes many players cold. That's why we have often long stretches where our offense sucks, there is no great ball and players movement that could lessen the pressure on the guys that have the ball.

zico · 07-18-2006, 03:01 AM

I also forget, we count so much on our athleticism.
The problem is when we play team that have great athletic guards, we struggle.
Against the warriors, Richardson and Davis would put us in great trouble.

kingmalaki · 07-18-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Understatement alert. Lets not even pretend that the supporting casts are close...because that is reality.

I didn't say that. But you, yourself said that the Celts were like an allstar team...I would imagine that you would admit that Bird could not receive the same type of attention Dirk received from the Heat in the finals because Bird's teammates were too good to allow that kind of defense to be played on just one guy.

Bird definately had a better supporting cast. He was still more assertive. My main problem with Dirk is that he defers too much. I have that same problem with Yao and other superstar players (ie KG).

Dirk's supporting cast is better than what a lot of other stars have today, and better than what a lot of older stars had at times in their career. Receiving extra attention is something that the best stars have to go through and overcome. Again, stop deferring so much....

Edit: And let me clarify...I think Dirk is a superstar in todays league. I just don't think he is a leader and I think he defers too much. His play leading up to the Finals was stellar and I thought he turned a corner (as far as being clutch is concerned) in the SA series, but his play in the Finals was dissapointing. I'm curious to see how he plays next season.

sike · 07-18-2006, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Bird definately had a better supporting cast

without question...he played with two of the top 50 greatest of all time...three superstars on the same team cannot be understated...

Quote:

He was still more assertive.

Ok. but as I have and will continue to assert, Bird never faced a defense gameplan like Dirk did in the finals, due to no fault of his own, but simply because his teammates were just too good for a team to even dream attempt it.

Dirk in the SA series was birdlike...

but like I said, I don't really like comparing players from different eras...

kingmalaki · 07-18-2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

without question...he played with two of the top 50 greatest of all time...three superstars on the same team cannot be understated...

Ok. but as I have and will continue to assert, Bird never faced a defense gameplan like Dirk did in the finals, due to no fault of his own, but simply because his teammates were just too good for a team to even dream attempt it.

Dirk in the SA series was birdlike...

but like I said, I don't really like comparing players from different eras...

Comparing players from different eras is touch as the game and the rules always change. It's extra tough when they play different positions.

Dirk played out of his mind until the Finals:

Mem: 31 and 8 on 51%
SA: 27 and 13 on 53%
Pho: 28 and 13 on 45%
Mia: 22 and 10 on 39%

So do you think Dirk defers too much?

Locked_Up_Tonight · 07-18-2006, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Mia: 22 and 10 on 39%

It was actually 23 and 11 in the Finals.

kingmalaki · 07-18-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight

It was actually 23 and 11 in the Finals.

Yes, after rounding. Still a considerable drop-off from previous rounds.

Five-ofan · 07-18-2006, 08:28 PM

Bird was better than dirk. Until dirk wins a title i cant really state otherwise. They are however in the same realm as players. As for the deferring, everyone up until the heat at least somewhat respected the other players on the team. The heat didnt. THey flat out said, josh howard, diop, jason terry and jerry stackhouse, we dont think you can beat us even if you arent guarded. They were right.

dude1394 · 08-28-2006, 03:20 PM

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ts/Basketball/

Nowitzki ready to face U.S. in world championships

Associated Press
Saitama, Japan — The bracket says the United States will be facing Germany in the quarter-finals of the FIBA world championships Wednesday night.

In truth, the U.S. is facing Dirk.

"Man, they have Dirk," U.S. point guard Chris Paul said. "He's one of the best players in the NBA and one of the best players in international ball as well."

Everyone here is on a first-name basis with Dirk Nowitzki, the Dallas Mavericks' star forward who has joined the ranks of the one-name basketball stars.

There's Kobe, Shaq, LeBron and Yao. And Dirk.

MavsX · 08-28-2006, 03:59 PM

DIRK

fluid.forty.one · 08-28-2006, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

I don't think it makes much sense to compare the first Finals for Bird and Dirk. First of all, Bird won and Dirk lost.

I thought bird lost his first finals.

Five-ofan · 08-28-2006, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I thought bird lost his first finals.

Bird won but he played like crap.

fluid.forty.one · 08-28-2006, 04:03 PM

Due to his supporting cast.

I think we are also forgetting that dirk didnt even pick up a basketball till his late teens... bird had been playing his whole life AND 4 years of really competitive basketball against Magic.

A little unfair to point out that Bird was in his "2nd season" and dirk in his "8th"... a little unfair if you looked at their ages and time playing basketball.

Five-ofan · 08-28-2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Due to his supporting cast.

I think we are also forgetting that dirk didnt even pick up a basketball till his late teens... bird had been playing his whole life AND 4 years of really competitive basketball against Magic.

A little unfair to point out that Bird was in his "2nd season" and dirk in his "8th"... a little unfair if you looked at their ages and time playing basketball.

Bird didnt get to nba till he was 24. Dirk got to the nba when he was 19. So yes there is a huge difference plus the nba is MUCH more talented than it was then. I honestly dont think bird would be that great now. He was SO slow. Also at some point or another in his career bird played with 3 other HOFers plus DJ who is borderline. THose teams were loaded but we here dirk shouldnt be taken seriously because he plays with jason terry and josh howard????

Big Boy Laroux · 08-28-2006, 05:01 PM

whoa, five-o, take that back. you're dissing the basketball jesus.

MavsX · 08-29-2006, 09:11 AM

this thread is almost as bad as the threads i start..

mynameisdirk · 08-30-2006, 09:20 PM

When Dirk masters the postup game, there is no better player in the game.

nikeball · 09-01-2006, 05:03 AM

good read!!

on the topic of dirk/bird...in comparing their teams...dirk's supporting cast hasnt been that terrible...he's had nash (MVP), finley, jamison, walker, stackhouse, terry, jho and many more "all-star" caliber players. it isn't like dirk has been playing with trash. he just doesnt have that killer instinct yet. which i hope he will develop. i see saw so many mean streaks in him this season...which shows flashes of greatness like larry legend.

alby · 09-01-2006, 10:30 AM

Larry Bird in the regular season vs playoffs:
24.3 vs 23.8 points (-0.5)
10.0 vs 10.3 rebounds (+0.3)
6.3 vs 6.5 assists (+0.2)
50% vs 47% fg (-3%)
37% vs 32% 3pt (-5%)
88% vs 89% ft (+1%)

Dirk Nowitzki in the regular season vs playoffs:
22.0 vs 25.7 points (+3.7)
8.5 vs 11.1 rebounds (+1.6)
2.5 vs 2.4 assists (-0.1)
46% vs 45% fg (1%)
37% vs 39% 3pt (+2%)
86% vs 88% ft (+2%)

nikeball, true Dirk has had a good supporting cast throughout the years, but they didn't all play together at the same time. Larry's team played together for a decade (and we all know what that means.. spain > greece > argentina > usa). We have all known Larry Bird as a great clutch performer, but according to the numbers Dirk has raised his game higher in the playoffs than Larry thus far. Sure, statistics don't tell the whole story but who knew Larry scored less and shot a worse 3pt percentage in the playoffs?

random bit of info...

1992 51-31 1st, Atlantic Division Lost East Conf Semis
1991 56-26 1st, Atlantic Division Lost East Conf Semis
1990 52-30 2nd, Atlantic Division Lost East Conf 1st Rd
1989 42-40 3rd, Atlantic Division Lost East Conf 1st Rd
1988 57-25 1st, Atlantic Division Lost East Conf Finals
1987 59-23 1st, Atlantic Division Lost NBA Finals
1986 67-15 1st, Atlantic Division Won NBA Finals
1985 63-19 1st, Atlantic Division Lost NBA Finals
1984 62-20 1st, Atlantic Division Won NBA Finals
1983 56-26 2nd, Atlantic Division Lost East Conf Semis
1982 63-19 1st, Atlantic Division Lost East Conf Finals
1981 62-20 1st, Atlantic Division Won NBA Finals
1980 61-21 1st, Atlantic Division Lost East Conf Finals

Larry won three NBA Finals and had two losses, maybe there IS a chance for the Dallas Mavericks.

Five-ofan · 09-01-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikeball

good read!!

on the topic of dirk/bird...in comparing their teams...dirk's supporting cast hasnt been that terrible...he's had nash (MVP), finley, jamison, walker, stackhouse, terry, jho and many more "all-star" caliber players. it isn't like dirk has been playing with trash. he just doesnt have that killer instinct yet. which i hope he will develop. i see saw so many mean streaks in him this season...which shows flashes of greatness like larry legend.

He hasnt had any other all star caliber players and since the team got good, Neither fin, jamison, walker, terry or jho are all star caliber players with dallas.

dude1394 · 09-01-2006, 10:37 AM

ALBY!! You are a ******* genious. Wonderful post.

dude1394 · 12-11-2006, 05:39 PM

From Detroits last game here.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...612080321/1004

Quote:

Nowitzki begins to put a stamp on his legacy

Saunders says Mavs forward, 28, is making history as he enters the prime of his NBA career.

Chris McCosky / The Detroit News

DALLAS -- Flip Saunders must feel like Dallas forward Dirk Nowitzki has been around forever.

Believe it or not, though, Nowitzki is just 28 years old and in his ninth NBA season. Provided he stays healthy, he's probably only at the midpoint of his career.

"He's going to be a Hall-of-Fame player," said Saunders, who coached against him four times a season when Saunders was with the Timberwolves.

"He is going to go down in history as the best 7-foot shooting forward that ever played."

High praise, indeed.

"In our league, there are probably five guys you consider to be so tough, that you change everything you do against him," Saunders said. "He's one of those five guys."

The other four are Steve Nash, Dwyane Wade, LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal.

Odd Saunders didn't mention Kevin Garnett, whom he coached for nine seasons.

"KG isn't going to dominate you," Saunders said. "KG is such a great passer that most teams have decided to play him straight up and take whatever he gives you. He's so unselfish, he's not going to get 40 points. He's going to try to get others involved.

"Dirk is the type of guy that if you don't guard him the right way, he will put 50 on you. He's got that dagger in him where he's looking to destroy you from an offensive standpoint."

Pistons forward Rasheed Wallace has had some success guarding Nowitzki. That continued, even though Nowitzki scored 29. Wallace countered with 19 points and nine rebounds.

V2M · 12-11-2006, 06:16 PM

Kobe's not in that list of 5 guys??

Five-ofan · 12-11-2006, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V2M

Kobe's not in that list of 5 guys??

I though exactly the same thing.

Drbio · 12-11-2006, 08:16 PM

Rapists need not apply.