Why The Mavs Are The League's Deepest Team - And Why That May Be A Problem

[LonghornDub]

Like I posted in another thread...I seriously question the notion that it is a "problem" that we have so much talent on our team.

The idea of a problem is relative, and having too much talent is better than the alternative--therefore it's not really a problem.

You could make the argument that a person who makes 10 million dollars a year has a problem because he never knows what to spend his money on, or that a beautiful woman has a problem because she never knows which guy she should date. But those things (and in this case, having so much talent on our team) are hardly "problematic" when compared to the alternative.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by craggmac

Too long. Did not read.

This got pretty much ignored, but I can't help myself.

Why, exactley, would you bother to post this? If you don't want to read it, then move along. Why do you feel we care whether you read it or not, and your opinion on the length of the post?

[mqywaaah]

I tend to agree with jthig.
If you want your post numbers to go up, I suggest you do it in the Lounge.

Btw, Stackattack, Good job kid! I was impressed after having read your article. But when I found out that you're only 14, I was completely astonished! Good form young man. You will go places, Achieve new heights, Conquer the journalism world. But for now, I just want to say... way to go kid!

[G-Man]

AS for the concept of usable depth.

In the regular season, you can't have too much. when healthy, last year's Mavs had 3 point guards, Griff, Stack, and Quis all for 2 guard slots and ended up starting Rawle Marshall 9 games. Add the games Stack, QUis and Harris missed and its an entire 82 game season's worth. Becaue the Mavs had usable depth tey stll won 60 games.

Playoff depth depends on the coach. Lots of guys go to 7 or 8 and if its the right guys, it works. AJ won some games by putting MBenga in late in the 1st half to make sure his starting centers has at least 6 fouls between them for the 2nd. That's pretty valuable from literally the 12th guy on the roster. He beat
SA using Harris, who only started 2 games and missed the last 28. I say give him all the useable depth you can. He appears to be smart enough to use it.

[V2M]

Originally Posted by G-Man

AS for the concept of usable depth.

In the regular season, you can't have too much. when healthy, last year's Mavs had 3 point guards, Griff, Stack, and Quis all for 2 guard slots and ended up starting Rawle Marshall 9 games. Add the games Stack, QUis and Harris missed and its an entire 82 game season's worth. Becaue the Mavs had usable depth tey stll won 60 games.

Playoff depth depends on the coach. Lots of guys go to 7 or 8 and if its the right guys, it works. AJ won some games by putting MBenga in late in the 1st half to make sure his starting centers has at least 6 fouls between them for the 2nd. That's pretty valuable from literally the 12th guy on the roster. He beat
SA using Harris, who only started 2 games and missed the last 28. I say give him all the useable depth you can. He appears to be smart enough to use it.

Good point. Plus it gives him the flexibility of totally benching a key player (a la Damp in PHX series!) in lieu of better matchups.

[Five-ofan]

The problem is that the guys you are mentioning arent any good, i seriously think some of you thinks the mavs are the only team in the nba with 12 players. Yes we played certain guys and that was my original point, the mavs are nowhere near too deep. They have 5 guys who are better than average imo. 5 thats it.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The problem is that the guys you are mentioning arent any good, i seriously think some of you thinks the mavs are the only team in the nba with 12 players. Yes we played certain guys and that was my original point, the mavs are nowhere near too deep. They have 5 guys who are better than average imo. 5 thats it.

Give me a team that you think has more than 5 "Better than avg" players ? ? ?

[Five-ofan]

The phoenix suns, Steve nash, Raja Bell, Diaw, Marion, Amare, Barbosa

Edit you could probably throw Kurt thomas in that list too.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The phoenix suns, Steve nash, Raja Bell, Diaw, Marion, Amare, Barbosa

Edit you could probably throw Kurt thomas in that list too.

Raja is not above average.
Diaw has one good year- when he was the focus, he won't be with Amare back.
Barbosa still needs to prove it to me that he is anything better than avg.

Amare may or may not ever be even avg again.

I do agree with your sentiment though that Dallas doesn't have too much depth. I just disagree that any team has 5 or more players that are above average. I think Phoenix has 3 above and three avg.

Dallas has three above in Dirk, Howard, Terry and basically 6-7 avg starting with Stack, Buck, Harris, Johnson, Diop, Damp, Croshere.

Detriot really has 4 above avg, 1-2 avg, then big drop.
Spurs with 3-4 above avg (depending on how you put Bowen), 3 avg, rest below.
Heat has 1 superstar (Salvatore), one SuperSuperStar(Stern), two above avg in Wade and Shaq, and the rest are has beens that are not even avg (maybe Posey).

[Five-ofan]

I have already broken down how i feel the mavs roster breaks down with Dirk, Jho, Jet, Devin and damp being above average. Stack, AJ, Buck, Croshere, and diop being average to slightly below and everyone else being WELL below average. As for the Suns, Amare may or may not be anything. I doubt seriously he is anything close to what he was but he is good. Raja bell is a great defender who is a lights out 3 pt shooter. Everyone things that the 15 he averaged last year was just the suns or nash but he averaged around 12 on good percentages each of the previous two years. As for diaw, i would trade howard for him straight up in a heart beat. He is a better everything but scorer than josh and they are very very close at that. Well actually not everything, Josh is a good bit better shooter. Since i included devin who though his stats arent great, i think he has the third most impact of anyone on the mavs, i needed to include barbosa who is basically devin with a jumper and slightly less hops.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Here's what I have to say on the subject:

Mavs > Suns

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Here's what I have to say on the subject:

Mavs > Suns

And i completely agree with you on that subject. What i disagree on is that the mavs have such amazing depth that no one else on the planet. The mavs are better defensively and they play a better style plus they are balanced. THe nba isnt a 1 on 1 game or 5 1 on 1 games but im just pointing out that in individual talent, the mavs arent just some overwhelming juggernaut.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

And i completely agree with you on that subject. What i disagree on is that the mavs have such amazing depth that no one else on the planet. The mavs are better defensively and they play a better style plus they are balanced. THe nba isnt a 1 on 1 game or 5 1 on 1 games but im just pointing out that in individual talent, the mavs arent just some overwhelming juggernaut.

Of course not. I mean, if anyone actually believes that's the case, they don't know much about basketball. I mean, the Mavs surely weren't some "overwhelming juggernaught" last season as indicated by the lack of a championship, and nobody should suffer the dillusion that Greg Buckner, Anthony Johnson, and Devean George suddenly put them at that level.

My point was merely that the Suns can suck it.

[Five-ofan]

The problem is that i do think some people feel that way. I have heard countless times that the mavs bench could make the playoffs in the east. That is a complete and utter load of crap. Especially if you started the mavs 5 best players.

[CarolinaJHoFan]

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Thanks for all the critiique chum. I'll go back and edit some. I didn't really write it FOR anybody, just something to do during a really boring summer break. May send it to RealGM. But yeah, sports journalism is what I want to do in my future, good to get an early start, even though I'm only 14.

14??? wow you write better than some of the "journalism" students i have ran across on other boards. Oops did i say that?

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The problem is that i do think some people feel that way. I have heard countless times that the mavs bench could make the playoffs in the east. That is a complete and utter load of crap. Especially if you started the mavs 5 best players.

I think our 6th-10th players are almost as good, or as good, as milwakies 1-5.

Redd of course dominates everyone, but that doesn't matter.

[WurzburgBorn]

I think our 6th-10th players are almost as good, or as good, as milwakies 1-5.

I agree with that. We're deep, no question.

Let's assume our starters are: Terry, Buckner, Howard, Dirk, Diop. If you handicapped our team by subtracting all 5...

I think our "backup 5" of Harris, Stackhouse, George, Croshere, and Dampier
could beat some NBA teams with the help of Ager and Mbenga off the bench!

Not consistently of course. And not any good teams. But you can't tell me we couldn't beat teams like Charlotte, Atlanta, or New York at least 2 or 3 out of 10 games.

[V2M]

Milwaukee's starting 5 would clobber our backups 4-0 in a 7-game series and no more than 1 game would even be closer than 10pts.

[alby]

how is stack the 8th option, that's what im trying to figure out

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by alby

how is stack the 8th option, that's what im trying to figure out

He should be if he isn't. With his low percentage shooting and being turnover prone and aging why should he be higher on the list?

[DLord]

Interesting article. The critiques are things you should learn from, but people have taught me that even if the journalism isnt impeccable, people still will enjoy your writing if you make some valid points. Keep working to make it better and easier to read, though, and you will have the best of both worlds.

Re the content of this article, some follow-ups ...

"this may be the most event-filled off-season for a Western Conference Champion team ever"

The turnover of this Mavs team is typical for a playoff finalist under the current CBA format that began in 1999 and that allows lots of player movement.

Playoff year ..... Finalists ...... Playoff players retained afterwards
2000 ......... LA over Indy .......LA keeps 8/12, Indy keeps 8/12
2001 ......... LA over Philly ......LA keeps 8/12, Philly keeps 6/12
2002 ......... LA over NJ ..........LA keeps 10/12, NJ keeps 10/12
2003 ......... SA over NJ ..........SA keeps 6/12, NJ keeps 10/12
2004 ......... Det over LA .........Det keeps 9/12, LA keeps 6/12
2005 ......... SA over Det .........SA keeps 9/12, Det keeps 8/12
2006 ......... Mia over Dal ........Mia keeps 11/13, Dal keeps 8/13 (assuming KVH leaves)
* - playoff rosters expanded to 13

On a chart, it looks like this for all finalists: 6 6 8 8 8 8 9 9 10 10 10 11

Re 2nd place teams only, who perhaps need to improve more, the numbers are: 6 6 8 8 8 10 10

Dallas with 8 doesnt have the least amount of turnover. In fact, keeping 8 is the most common result, and is pretty close to the average of 8.6 for all finalaist and is smack dab in the center of what runner-ups have done.

"the Mavs as a team may have actually gotten worse"

Your point (that the extra depth will get in the way) is coherent but its hard to accept in that the moves they made in the offseason merely upgraded players who fill certain already-defined roles - without changing the pecking order.

Croshere replaces Van Horn, plays the same amount (10 mpg), but hopefully does it better
Pops replaces Powell, young NBDL forward with potential
George with a better perimeter shot replaces Griffin's minutes as backup 3
Buckner with a better perimeter shot replaces Griffin's minutes at the 2
Ager with a better perimeter shot replaces Daniels as the wild card in the guard mix
Johnson replaces Armstrong, plays the same amount (10 mpg), but hopefully better

It's the exact same basic team (the 3 centers, Dirk, Jho, Stack, Terry, Harris) with the exact same backup roles behind them, only it's an upgraded supporting cast in those backup roles. Having more quality in those support roles - which will have to make a contribution regularly- is a positive. The supporting cast brings tons of quality experience (Johnson, George, and Croshere have all played in at least one NBA finals) but is now younger, more athletic, and better from the perimeter when needed.

DL

[dude1394]

IMO Ager/Pops won't sniff the game unless it's a blowout or exceptional injury/foul trouble. DJ about the same probably.

Dirk
Jason
Josh
Diop
Damp
Devin
Stack
--------
Buck
George
Anthony
--------
Croshere might be sort of an odd man out if George does well which I sort of expect him to do. I can see Dirk/George getting the minutes that Dirk/Keith would have gotten. George/Croshere will be an interesting battle.

[jthig32]

I still don't understand why some people think George is going to get regular minutes at backup PF on this team. Have you guys ever seen him play? I would be absolutely shocked if George took any regular minutes away from Croshere at PF.

[nashtymavsfan13]

George will backup at SF, not PF. I'm thinking Terry/Buck start with Harris then coming in for Buck and will play the point. Then Stack will replace Terry and play SG with Devin at point. Anthony Johnson plays the minutes between when Devin comes out and when Terry returns to the game.

George will backup Jho with Stack getting minutes there as well and Croshere will backup Dirk at PF, and play a little SF if we are in bad foul trouble or have a lot of injuries.

[WurzburgBorn]

The way I see it, our frontcourt rotation is pretty set. Barring early injuries or somebody playing differently from expectations, something like this:

SF Howard 35, George 13
PF Dirk 35, Croshere 13
C Diop 22, Damp 22, Mbenga 4

What the guard rotation will look like is more interesting. I'm not sure.
The big questions are:

1. How can Harris get enough minutes with Terry and Johnson demanding minutes at the point?
2. How will SG minutes be divided between Terry, Buckner, Stackhouse?

I think the answer should be to play Terry more at SG, allow Devin and Johnson to run the point, and let Buckner and Stack rotate as backup SG, depending on how they're playing or what is needed. But I don't know if it will play out that way.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by WurzburgBorn

The way I see it, our frontcourt rotation is pretty set. Barring early injuries or somebody playing differently from expectations, something like this:

SF Howard 35, George 13
PF Dirk 35, Croshere 13
C Diop 22, Damp 22, Mbenga 4

What the guard rotation will look like is more interesting. I'm not sure.
The big questions are:

1. How can Harris get enough minutes with Terry and Johnson demanding minutes at the point?
2. How will SG minutes be divided between Terry, Buckner, Stackhouse?

I think the answer should be to play Terry more at SG, allow Devin and Johnson to run the point, and let Buckner and Stack rotate as backup SG, depending on how they're playing or what is needed. But I don't know if it will play out that way.

I think you're right. Terry will get most of his minutes at SG, but I still think Buck will start.

C Diop 21, Damp 24, DJ 3
PF Dirk 35, Croshere 13
SF Jho 31, George 10, Stack 7
SG Buck 12, Terry 20, Stack 16
PG Terry 13, Harris 23, Johnson 12

Minutes will be tough to balance, but I don't think George, Buck, or AJ play a whole lot of minutes. I don't think are depth is a problem at all, I see it as more of a blessing because we can change our rotation depending on what type of team we play.

[Pirate]

I think the Mavs might ask Stackhouse to be injured again early in the season, and play extremely limited minutes until we get past the all-star break. That saves wear-and-tear on his legs (to be fresher for the playoffs) and allows the team to use early season minutes in development and definition of roles for the newer additions and younger players. It also makes the minutes crunch vanish.

[jacktruth]

Good piece. Well thought out.

Thoughts on the shortage of playing time make me all the more happy that we didn't sign Mike James.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by WurzburgBorn

The way I see it, our frontcourt rotation is pretty set. Barring early injuries or somebody playing differently from expectations, something like this:

SF Howard 35, George 13
PF Dirk 35, Croshere 13
C Diop 22, Damp 22, Mbenga 4

What the guard rotation will look like is more interesting. I'm not sure.
The big questions are:

1. How can Harris get enough minutes with Terry and Johnson demanding minutes at the point?
2. How will SG minutes be divided between Terry, Buckner, Stackhouse?

I think the answer should be to play Terry more at SG, allow Devin and Johnson to run the point, and let Buckner and Stack rotate as backup SG, depending on how they're playing or what is needed. But I don't know if it will play out that way.

You are greatly overrating Johnson if yout hink he's going to be the one getting minutes at backup PG, and Devin will be struggling to crack the rotation. I'd be willing to bet you every penny I own that it's the exact opposite situation.

The second question you pose is a very legitimate question.

[mqywaaah]

All I can say is: Mavs > Heat, Spurs, Suns individually
Mavs (well-balanced than) pistons

The Heat can shove DWade up their a**es!

[nah-vit-ski]

I'm 14, do I get a prize??

But to be on topic, i don't think it's a problem. I guess the offseason plan was to get real depth by getting AJ2, Buck, and Deavan George.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Thanks for all the critiique chum. I'll go back and edit some. I didn't really write it FOR anybody, just something to do during a really boring summer break. May send it to RealGM. But yeah, sports journalism is what I want to do in my future, good to get an early start, even though I'm only 14.

Very impressive. I'm 15, and I'm also wanting to do sports writing in my future. Good luck to you, and very well done article.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I think our 6th-10th players are almost as good, or as good, as milwakies 1-5.

Redd of course dominates everyone, but that doesn't matter.

Well, first of all, as i said I think our bench is largely overrated due to damp and harris being better than 2 of our starters. If you assume that and then play this lineup, Johnson, Buck, Stack, Croshere, and diop you would win less than 9 games and set the nba record for the worst record ever. Even if you do the lineup you mentioned, and remember i love devin and damp, that team would win maybe 12 games for the year. Devean George sucks guys. Croshere is a good 9th man but nothing more. Stack is one of the most innefficient players in the nba and damp isnt good enough offensively to score more than 12 a night if he has a great year(he wont but he might on that team because he would see the ball more.) THat team would struggle to average 85 (the one you listed). As for comparing them to milwaukee, A, you are completely forgetting how important a go to scorer is and they have one and the mavs bench doesnt. This isnt that big of a deal but i just find it funny that some of us are truly this delusional.

[WurzburgBorn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WurzburgBorn
The way I see it, our frontcourt rotation is pretty set. Barring early injuries or somebody playing differently from expectations, something like this:

SF Howard 35, George 13
PF Dirk 35, Croshere 13
C Diop 22, Damp 22, Mbenga 4

What the guard rotation will look like is more interesting. I'm not sure.
The big questions are:

1. How can Harris get enough minutes with Terry and Johnson demanding minutes at the point?
2. How will SG minutes be divided between Terry, Buckner, Stackhouse?

I think the answer should be to play Terry more at SG, allow Devin and Johnson to run the point, and let Buckner and Stack rotate as backup SG, depending on how they're playing or what is needed. But I don't know if it will play out that way.


You are greatly overrating Johnson if yout hink he's going to be the one getting minutes at backup PG, and Devin will be struggling to crack the rotation. I'd be willing to bet you every penny I own that it's the exact opposite situation.

The second question you pose is a very legitimate question.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought Johnson would or should see more minutes than Harris. I'm just saying we signed him, we're paying him, he can play, and he'll want to. I was just saying it will be easier to get minutes for Harris and Johnson if Terry plays less point and more at the 2.

[StackAttack]

Honestly, our second string of

PG - Devin
SG - Stack
SF - George
PF - Cro
C - Damp

Is probably superior to Portland's starting lineup.

[kriD]

Wow Factor

Mavs' Roster Seems Loaded For '06-07

By Mike Fisher -- DallasBasketball.com

To some degree, we wrote it, typed it, edited it and published it almost by rote. The Mavs' roster/depth chart as we see it today:

C - Diop, Dampier, Mbenga
PF - Nowitzki, Croshere, Pops
SF - Howard, George
SG - Buckner, Stackhouse, Ager
PG - Terry, Harris, Johnson

We might oughta take one more glance at it.

Glancing, glancing, glancing. ...

Wow.

A franchise long starved for one proven NBA center now has two, with a third just now emerging from the womb. Nowitzki is a superstar, his running mate at forward Josh Howard is a budding star, each soon to be under long-term contractual lock, with a both-position backup in the affordable Devean George, plus a shooter in Croshere, plus an exciting prospect in Pops acquired at no cost. The 2 is loaded with a trio of two-way players. The point-guard position features a trio of guys who all had starting and starring moments in last year's playoffs.

The quality and depth of the roster is matched only by that of the front office. I wouldn't trade the Trinity River Trinity of owner, GM and coach for any in the NBA. Mavs management now possesses a slow hand when it comes to the development of the club (Avery's calming influence on the franchise's once-frenzied approach to talent acquisition) but at the same time possesses a quick trigger finger when it comes to executing must-do's (when Mike James falls through, the club wastes no time finding a James-a-like in Anthony Johnson). That approach has fueled apparent upgrades to the supporting cast: Griff is out but Buck is in; Van Horn is out but Croshere is in; Armstrong is out but Johnson is in; Marquis is out but Ager is in. Dallas got to the NBA Finals on the strength of essentially an eight-man rotation, and that rotation comes back familiar, experienced and just as strong. As for the rest of the new, seemingly well-fitting bodies? They help win 60 on the way to the postseason.

The arena is majestic, the fans are supportive, the franchise is muscular and their NBA Finals runners-up status would figure to make them hungry. Oh, and Las Vegas loves 'em.
The only thing lacking in this team and this franchise right now (unless you're among the fuds who want Cuban to change seats or whine about Nash's departure) is a line at the Mavs' complaint window and a space in the police blotter.

Wow.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by kriD

[B]Wow Factor


SG - Buckner, Stackhouse, Ager
The 2 is loaded with a trio of two-way players.

He has lost his mind. Buckner-no offense, Stack no defense and bad offense, Ager-no playing time and he was an average defender in college. Again i dont want you guys to get me wrong, i am extremely excited about next year and flat out i expect a title but some of you guys have lost it and fisher is one of them.

You guys do realize devean george sucks right? I just want one of you to at least mention that. Croshere is Eddie with a 3pt shot. Which is very useful. The strength of this team is its 5 best players(should be starters) not its 6-10. The strength of the mavs is that they have possibly the best frontcourt in the nba when they start damp. The strength of the mavs is possibly/probably the best forward combo in the nba. The strength of the mavs is the attention to detail and the willingness to do anything to win that flows throughout everyone. The strength of the mavs is dirk nowitzki. The strength of the Mavs is NOT devean George, Croshere, Dj, Stack, and ager like some seem to think it is. I think alot of you are gonna be seriously disappointed when you watch devean george. Im a big lamar odom fan so i watched quite a few laker games and let me tell you, the guy isnt any good. I would like to hear purple and golds oppinion on that since im quite certain he watched more laker games than i did.

[Five-ofan]

Basically, I guess to sum up all my points in this thread, the mavs are perceived to be deep and because of that, no matter who they add, they are considered adding to the mavs depth. For example see Devean George. Last year, a backup on a team that supposedly had kobe to a lesser extent odom and nothing else. He played in 71 games while starting 5. He shot exactly 40% and was 50 of 160(31.3%) on threes for the year. Averaged 6.3 pts and 4 boards while shooting 67.4% from the field. In short did nothing to diminish the notion that kobe played with odom and a bunch of scrubs. Then, he signs with dallas and all of a sudden he is a guy with championship experience who provides even more depth to already loaded mavs team. Its a load of crap but because the perception is that Dirk plays with a loaded team and kobe plays with crap we have to change george's rep too.

[Tokey41]

George isint that good a player Five, I know this. But hes definitely a fine backup for BOTH forward positions which is why i'm glad we signed him. I think he will do ok considering he won't play a hell of a lot. I can see your point about playing for L.A though, the guy didn't do anything last year (who was in their starting lineup? Kobe, Smush, Kwame, Odom, and Mihm right?) I think George could have replaced Kwame if they needed it. All we need from him is some energy on defense which he does well and to hit some threes, thats all we ask.

And for the record I think Cubans money combined with Donnie Nelson is the real strength of the Mavs.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Tokey41

George isint that good a player Five, I know this. But hes definitely a fine backup for BOTH forward positions which is why i'm glad we signed him. I think he will do ok considering he won't play a hell of a lot. I can see your point about playing for L.A though, the guy didn't do anything last year (who was in their starting lineup? Kobe, Smush, Kwame, Odom, and Mihm right?) I think George could have replaced Kwame if they needed it. All we need from him is some energy on defense which he does well and to hit some threes, thats all we ask.

Ding ding