Would you trade Dirk for Oden?

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by jthig32

...You're putting the odds at 40/60 that Greg freaking Oden is the best Center of all time?

no -- I'm saying that he could be better than either Duncan or Olajuwan, neither of whom I consider the best centers of all time.

I don't expect he'll be better than Shaq in his heyday .... but shaq won three rings in his heyday.

...let's put the over under on oden rings at 2.5, shall we?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

no -- I'm saying that he could be better than either Duncan or Olajuwan, neither of whom I consider the best centers of all time.

I don't expect he'll be better than Shaq in his heyday .... but shaq won three rings in his heyday.

...let's put the over under on oden rings at 2.5, shall we?

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. Olajuwon and Duncan are both better centers than Shaq, imo.

I'll set the over under at .5, and feel comfortable with it.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

It's certainly not a dumb question as some have suggested.

well, I'll take the MVP over the "next great thing"...which so often in the NBA just doesn't pan out...you don't trade the proven for the unproven...I say this not with Dirklove in mind, but with a desire to succeed in winning a ring in the next four years.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

It's certainly not a dumb question as some have suggested. It's something you have to consider (hypothetically since it'll never happen) if you removed the obvious emotional attachment to Dirk.

I certainly agree with this sentiment. It's not a dumb question -- it's one that you'd have to take quite seriously.

I actually stumbled across something like this in the thread about how Holger had kind of dissed on AJ. Somewhere there was a link suggesting a trade of Dirk to Boston for Al Jefferson plus the Bo-Celts number one....

....hmmm....

If the Celts got the one or the two, how could you not think twice about that deal?

Al Jefferson is a helluva fine looking power forward. Put him and Oden in the same frontcourt and we're talking about a decade of seriously good basketball.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

I certainly agree with this sentiment. It's not a dumb question -- it's one that you'd have to take quite seriously.

I actually stumbled across something like this in the thread about how Holger had kind of dissed on AJ. Somewhere there was a link suggesting a trade of Dirk to Boston for Al Jefferson plus the Bo-Celts number one....

....hmmm....

If the Celts got the one or the two, how could you not think twice about that deal?

Al Jefferson is a helluva fine looking power forward. Put him and Oden in the same frontcourt and we're talking about a decade of seriously good basketball.

If it's Al Jefferson and Oden, I'd think long and hard about it.

Of course, we'd have to take back so many players to make the salaries work, it's unfeasible.

But put a player like Jefferson in there with Oden, now you have me giving it very serious consideration.

[sike]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

If the Celts got the one or the two, how could you not think twice about that deal?

Al Jefferson is a helluva fine looking power forward. Put him and Oden in the same frontcourt and we're talking about a decade of seriously good basketball.

Harris
JT
JHo
AJ
Oden

...is that even a 4th seed? (Or what are we trading that brings in a legit scorer?)

people, lets not forget what we have in dirk.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. Olajuwon and Duncan are both better centers than Shaq, imo.

I'll set the over under at .5, and feel comfortable with it.

Shaq 4
Duncan 3
Olajuwan 2

Duncan will match Shaq only because Shaq's such an idiot, not because Shaq in his heyday was stoppable.

....dirk....i love him madly, but he is what he is and he is not a dominant interior player. Even sans emotion I wouldn't trade him for any player in the league that is not a dominant interior player.

But basketball is a big man's game played in the paint. When it comes to decisions about what i'd do for a POTENTIAL dude that can dominate the paint on two ends of the court..... i honestly don't know what I wouldn't do.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

Shaq 4
Duncan 3
Olajuwan 2

Duncan will match Shaq only because Shaq's such an idiot, not because Shaq in his heyday was stoppable.

....dirk....i love him madly, but he is what he is and he is not a dominant interior player. Even sans emotion I wouldn't trade him for any player in the league that is not a dominant interior player.

But basketball is a big man's game played in the paint. When it comes to decisions about what i'd do for a POTENTIAL dude that can dominate the paint on two ends of the court..... i honestly don't know what I wouldn't do.

Put Shaq on the Spurs and it's arguable they never win a single ring.

Shaq is the kind of center that needs another superstar alongside, because he is so one dimensional. That one dimension is PHENOMENAL, but if you go back and watch those Lakers titles, Kobe was very much needed on those teams.

Olajuwon, I'm not sure it's even debateable. In my mind he's the best all around center to ever play. And Olajuwon took Shaq to school in his heydey.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by sike

well, I'll take the MVP over the "next great thing"...which so often in the NBA just doesn't pan out...you don't trade the proven for the unproven...I say this not with Dirklove in mind, but with a desire to succeed in winning a ring in the next four years.

I'd agree that you usually don't trade a sure thing for a maybe but when the maybe if nine years younger and plays center then you have to seriously assess how strongly you feel about his chances succeed.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by sike

Harris
JT
JHo
AJ
Oden

...is that even a 4th seed? (Or what are we trading that brings in a legit scorer?)

people, lets not forget what we have in dirk.

I don't know what it is next year.

Al Jefferson and Greg Oden in the same front court....3, 4 or 5 years out that could be a 4-5 combo to rival any in the history of the game. (and yes, the potential of a great 4-5 combo three years hence is an extremely valuable thing). There are a whole lot of things that I woudn't take over dirk, but a shot at a historically great 4-5 combo is one I'd have to think twice about.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Put Shaq on the Spurs and it's arguable they never win a single ring.

Shaq is the kind of center that needs another superstar alongside, because he is so one dimensional. That one dimension is PHENOMENAL, but if you go back and watch those Lakers titles, Kobe was very much needed on those teams.

Olajuwon, I'm not sure it's even debateable. In my mind he's the best all around center to ever play. And Olajuwon took Shaq to school in his heydey.

Olajuwon was 10 years Shaq's senior...the dream was already done by the time Shaq hit his mid-20's (when any center really starts to hit his stride) ....

regardless...we're debating whether one great interior player is greater than another great interior player, not whether a potentially great interior player is worth as much as a proven great non-interior player....the latter dispute, I believe, is the question.

cheers

[EricaLubarsky]

no.

[TomThaMavsFan]

no way, everyone thought Eddy Curry was supposed to be the next shaq and look what happend to that theory. Dirk is the reigning MVP and to trade him for a Rookie would be straight dumb

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by TomThaMavsFan

no way, everyone thought Eddy Curry was supposed to be the next shaq and look what happend to that theory. Dirk is the reigning MVP and to trade him for a Rookie would be straight dumb

Agree. You dont trade an MVP for an unknown commodity. Period.

[purplefrog]

I'd have to think about it... OK, I thought about it. NO!

[V2M]

I remember when Houston drafted Yao Ming, there was some idiot national draft specialist on a local radio station, arguing that Ming was so good, that Dallas could trade Dirk/Nash and a couple of 1st round picks for him and still be better off... !!!

I understand Oden has great potential... but there's plenty that could go wrong before he realizes that.

Saying that, I also believe there's no way in hell Portland would trade Oden for anyone in the league...

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by V2M

Saying that, I also believe there's no way in hell Portland would trade Oden for anyone in the league...

This, to me, is ridiculous. There is most certainly a list of players in this league that Portalnd would trade teh #1 pick for, at the drop of a hat.

And Dirk is on that list, imo.

[Murphy3]

I can't imagine why this there's even an argument being made for the trade Dirk campaign....

[V2M]

Originally Posted by jthig32

This, to me, is ridiculous. There is most certainly a list of players in this league that Portalnd would trade teh #1 pick for, at the drop of a hat.

And Dirk is on that list, imo.

I'm sorry... but I'd have to see it to believe it!

Oden is a 7ft Center that's hyped up to be the greatest since TD in '97. Right or wrong Portland management would be now salivating at the thought of him leading the team to multiple championships over the next 15yrs. There's no way they're gonna' trade him straight up for anyone... including the great LeHype himself!!

The key here is the unique combination of his size, ability, and the HYPE surrounding his potential... and last but not the least is his age (20yrs) which gives him the huge edge when you compare him to the current leading bigs... 29yr old Dirk, 31 yr old KG or TD!

[some-dude]

The Blazers wouldn't trade Oden for Dirk.
The Mavs would't trade Dirk for Oden.

Losing Dirk and replacing Oden may make the Mavs better in the long run, but the Mavs are playing for a championship year in and year out. Getting Oden, as beastly as he may be, only slows down the Mavs chances at a title within the next 1-2 years. They are going to need to hope alot of players pick up their game offensively if Dirk goes.

However, from the Blazers perspective, they know that they wont be winning a title within the next 1-2 years. They might as well get the biggest prospect in a long time, and hope he follows the path everyone expects him too. Then they most definately will be a contender for many years to come, especially if Roy continues his growth and Aldridge lives up to his own respective hype.

[Male30Dan]

Some of you are SERIOUSLY undervaluing Oden... Most of you know how high I am on him, (I would pick him number one over a TEXAS LONGHORN - MY FAVORITE COLLEGE BY FAR), despite morons, (hello five-o ), saying he is the next Erick Dampier. I would not trade Dirk for him, but it isn't as "crazy" of a proposal as some of you suggest. Oden will be the next dominant center in this league. In 3 years he will be the second best center in the league in my opinion and likely the best defensive center. That is a great player if you ask me. An anchor. Whoever drafts this stud will be set. All of the five-os and jthigs in the world can deny that all they want, but within 3 years I will still be posting here singing this guys praises and they will be choking on some serious "DUMP" crow...

[Murphy3]

Dan, stick to the arcade... you don't know shit about sports..

[Dtownsfinest]

Sadly, i'd think about it. If Oden is the next big man in the vein of Duncan and O'Neal like he's billed to be then yea i'd have to think about it. Guys like Oden don't come around very often and the same be said for Dirk. Not many guys like Dirk come around often but damn the impact Oden has RIGHT NOW on offense and defense is amazing. I have a hard time trading a league MVP for a guy who has done nothing. Its just too risky. But i'll say that yea i'd definately atleast give it consideration. Its nothing against Dirk its just how amazing Oden's potential is.

[Arne]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

That's what I was thinking. A dominating center is almost guaranteed to win a ring at some point in his career. The only expection I can think of is Ewing.

I'm not sure if Oden is that good but even if it's a 50/50 shot then you have to give it some serious thought.

Dwight Howard seems to be a great big man as well... Where are his rings?

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by Arne

Dwight Howard seems to be a great big man as well... Where are his rings?

Are you serious? He's been in the league three years. Plus Dwight Howard needs to develop a shot besides the dunk before we call him great.

If you wanted to use a current player to make you point Yao would have worked better.

[alby]

dwight howard > greg oden

the guy is only one year older with three more years of nba experience while playing for a team that doesn't know how to get him more than his 10 shots a game.

if only tmac stayed in orlando...

dwight howard, my friend, is the center of the decade.

[dirno2000]

First off I never compared Oden to Howard.

Secondly, what decade are we talking about? If it's this one then Shaq might have something to say about that. Going forward Yao probably wants to throw his hat in the ring.

Howards a really good player with all the athleticism in the world but he needs to develop a couple of post moves.

[alby]

I was referring to the thread starter who called Oden the center of the decade =]

Howard does have some moves in the post, he just has no outside shooters to spread the floor (Hedo doesn't count). And he has noone to get him the ball (Jameer doesn't count)

that team is so flawed to have such a great force in the middle. Don't they have a lot of cap space this summer?

[dirno2000]

They have enough cap room for a max contract.

[alby]

or two very good players

they have a young bench with ariza, darko, and arroyo
and even a younger starting nucleus with jameer and dwight

if they pick up two solid vets, they can finish middle of the pack in the east (which isn't saying much, but is a big deal of you are a magic fan).

there should be a lot of noise coming out of Orlando this summer.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Dan, stick to the arcade... you don't know shit about sports..

You are either playing or are a fucking retard... You choose!

Either way you should seriously pull your dick out of Dirk's ear... The man love gets a bit old!

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Male26Dan

Some of you are SERIOUSLY undervaluing Oden... Most of you know how high I am on him, (I would pick him number one over a TEXAS LONGHORN - MY FAVORITE COLLEGE BY FAR), despite morons, (hello five-o ), saying he is the next Erick Dampier. I would not trade Dirk for him, but it isn't as "crazy" of a proposal as some of you suggest. Oden will be the next dominant center in this league. In 3 years he will be the second best center in the league in my opinion and likely the best defensive center. That is a great player if you ask me. An anchor. Whoever drafts this stud will be set. All of the five-os and jthigs in the world can deny that all they want, but within 3 years I will still be posting here singing this guys praises and they will be choking on some serious "DUMP" crow...

Will they be set like Houston is set? They currently employ the best center in the league.

And I do believe he'll be the best defensive center in the league. Most certainly. But I'm just not willing to say that his offensive game will be dominant. If he's the best defensive center in the league, and has a mediocre offensive game, is Portland still "set" with the next Mutumbo? Would you even THINK about trading Dirk for the next Mutumbo?

Obviously you think he'll be a lot better than that, and that's why you don't think it's a dumb question. I think it's a dumb question to debate whether to trade your MVP for ANY 20 year old, period.

Edit to add: For the record, I'm not necessarily predicting he'll simply be the next Mutumbo. I don't really know. I'm higher on him now than I was early in the college basketball season. But I think the hype is a tad ridiculous.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Dirk for Oden? Have the threads come down to this?

[Male30Dan]

Thiggy,

If you are even contemplating Oden only being a Mutombo then, well, we are just on very different wave lengths. I think Oden will eventually average roughly 20/12/4 with the potential to score even more points if he can polish his offensive game. I know he doesn't average those numbers now and he will begin against even tougher competition, but a lot of that was Ohio St. style. He will play a lot more minutes and if he can stay out of foul trouble he should be a great great player. He will likely rack up DPOYs and have the same affect Duncan has on the Spurs regarding preventing the drive.

If he would only become a Mutombo in life, no I would not trade him, but I think he has much more value than that. Is it so crazy to trade a guy at 25/8-9/1 for a guy 20/12/4 with tremendous defense when one can get the easy points we so desired in this past playoff run vs. the other guy having to be hot with his jumper to hurt you? I don't think so. I know what Dirk is capable of though and I know how clutch he CAN be so I would not make the trade, but many would - GMs that is.

How many potentially dominant back to the basket easy scoring defensive centers are there? How many jump shooters are there? Again, with Dirk you have a very proven player and with Oden it IS all potential until he proves it on the floor. Everyone COULD, (obviously including myself), be wrong about this guy and he ultimately COULD be even worse than Dampier. With that said, I would put my career on the line to draft him if I were a GM.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Male26Dan

Thiggy,

If you are even contemplating Oden only being a Mutombo then, well, we are just on very different wave lengths. I think Oden will eventually average roughly 20/12/4 with the potential to score even more points if he can polish his offensive game. I know he doesn't average those numbers now and he will begin against even tougher competition, but a lot of that was Ohio St. style. He will play a lot more minutes and if he can stay out of foul trouble he should be a great great player. He will likely rack up DPOYs and have the same affect Duncan has on the Spurs regarding preventing the drive.

If he would only become a Mutombo in life, no I would not trade him, but I think he has much more value than that. Is it so crazy to trade a guy at 25/8-9/1 for a guy 20/12/4 with tremendous defense when one can get the easy points we so desired in this past playoff run vs. the other guy having to be hot with his jumper to hurt you? I don't think so. I know what Dirk is capable of though and I know how clutch he CAN be so I would not make the trade, but many would - GMs that is.

How many potentially dominant back to the basket easy scoring defensive centers are there? How many jump shooters are there? Again, with Dirk you have a very proven player and with Oden it IS all potential until he proves it on the floor. Everyone COULD, (obviously including myself), be wrong about this guy and he ultimately COULD be even worse than Dampier. With that said, I would put my career on the line to draft him if I were a GM.

Well, if you're expecting 20/12/4, with stellar defense, and hoping his offensive might be better than that, then let me ask you this:

Would you trade Dirk for Alonzo Mourning in his prime? Because that sounds to me like who you're describing.

The key for me is his offense. In order for him to be the kind of player that makes any team he's on an instant contender, he has to be dominant offensively, not dominant defensively and pretty good offensively. At least in my opinion.

[Male30Dan]

You talk about Mourning like he was just "alright." Mourning, despite being a bit short, was still a very very good center in the East. He couldn't get his Heat over the top because of the great teams in the East back then, but he was still a terrific player. Hell, Mourning right now might be our 3rd best player, (most nights he is the 2nd best player on the Heat).

As far as Oden, I honestly see his top upside as being a 22-24/12-13/3-5 type of a guy. You expect the rebounds and blocks, but it is obviously the offensive side of the ball that comes into question with his game. With two healthy hands and some refined post moves the sky is the limit. If I could get 24/13/4 out of him then, well, I have another Tim Duncan. He won't come out on all cylinders IMO like Duncan did, but he will be a stud.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Male26Dan

You talk about Mourning like he was just "alright." Mourning, despite being a bit short, was still a very very good center in the East. He couldn't get his Heat over the top because of the great teams in the East back then, but he was still a terrific player. Hell, Mourning right now might be our 3rd best player, (most nights he is the 2nd best player on the Heat).

As far as Oden, I honestly see his top upside as being a 22-24/12-13/3-5 type of a guy. You expect the rebounds and blocks, but it is obviously the offensive side of the ball that comes into question with his game. With two healthy hands and some refined post moves the sky is the limit. If I could get 24/13/4 out of him then, well, I have another Tim Duncan. He won't come out on all cylinders IMO like Duncan did, but he will be a stud.

For the record, I never actually gave an opinion on Mourning. He most certainly was a great center.

But he wasn't the kind of center that you just say "he's on the team, so they're title contenders". He's not in the conversation of greatest of all time, just like Deke isn't.

That's all I'm saying. I think it's much more likely Oden is along those lines, or not even quite there, than he's a top 5 big man of all time.

We shall see. And for the record, I'd be excited as hell if I was a Portland fan. I'm a lot higher on Oden than I was the last time we discussed this. I just wouldn't trade Dirk for him, or even entertain the notion.

Edit: I used "for the record twice in this post". Maybe I was supposed to be a lawyer....

[Male30Dan]

I know you didn't give an opinion, but you made it sound like a trade of Dirk for an in the prime Mourning would be ridiculous. I again would consider that. Dirk hasn't won this team a championship yet despite some pretty damn good players around him in the past. He might, (hell he might win us several), but until he does they are both players that couldn't get it done. One brings more to the table on the defensive side of the ball with rebounds and blocks, (Dirk is actually a better defensive rebounder but Zo was terrific with his offensive rebounding making him better overall), and the other scores a bit more, (though Mournings best season was over 23 a game). The thing to remember with Zo was the way his teams played. It was a major accomplishment if the Heat scored more than 85 back then. I remember games where they were in the 60s, (a lot of Heat vs. Knicks games). If he was on a team that shot as much as Dallas, (or just think of him in the prime with Nash now), that SOB might have just been crazy good.

As far as Oden, I would certainly entertain the notion. It is stupid not to. Again, if Oden can put up 24/13/4 and play GREAT defense inside, could you really call a person stupid for thinking about that when the player you are comparing him to is a 25-26/8-9/1 guy with very little defensive presence inside and is a jump shooter, (I LOVE Dirk by the way, I am just saying).

Hell, if he can put up 20/12/3 I would still consider it. Yeah, I know that is basically 8 points more per game than Dampier averaged in his best season but you are losing 5 points and getting 3-4 more rebounds, 2-3 more blocks, more defense likely meaning fewer layups/dunks... I am just saying, what he brings to the table just about every single team would really really want.

Again, would I trade Dirk for Oden? No. Would I entertain the thought? I am now.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Male26Dan

I know you didn't give an opinion, but you made it sound like a trade of Dirk for an in the prime Mourning would be ridiculous. I again would consider that. Dirk hasn't won this team a championship yet despite some pretty damn good players around him in the past. He might, (hell he might win us several), but until he does they are both players that couldn't get it done. One brings more to the table on the defensive side of the ball with rebounds and blocks, (Dirk is actually a better defensive rebounder but Zo was terrific with his offensive rebounding making him better overall), and the other scores a bit more, (though Mournings best season was over 23 a game).

As far as Oden, I would certainly entertain the notion. It is stupid not to. Again, if Oden can put up 24/13/4 and play GREAT defense inside, could you really call a person stupid for thinking about that when the player you are comparing him to is a 25-25/8-9/1 guy with very little defensive presence inside and is a jump shooter, (I LOVE Dirk by the way, I am just saying).

Hell, if he can put up 20/12/3 I would still consider it. Yeah, I know that is basically 8 points more per game than Dampier averaged in his best season but you are losing 5 points and getting 3-4 more rebounds, 2-3 more blocks, more defense likely meaning fewer layups/dunks... I am just saying, what he brings to the table just about every single team would really really want.

Again, would I trade Dirk for Oden? No. Would I entertain the thought? I am now.

I actually didn't mean for the question to come off as me thinking it was ridiculous. I could understand someone thinking about that. But in that scenario, who you're trading for is a known quantity. That's why I might even think about it.

Anyway I don't think it's a stupid thing to consider if you're as confident as you are that Oden will be great. I think it's a long shot that he is a dominant offensive center, so I myself would not consider it.

[Male30Dan]

Fair enough... FYI, you didn't get my edits above.