Interesting Dirk Article - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

alby · 10-25-2007, 10:42 PM

I'm just saying, they started winning in the playoffs when Oakley was no longer on the team.

kingmalaki · 10-26-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

So are you saying teams dont need an enforcer type to win a title? Because the fact remains that a great majority of championship teams had an enforcer type on the team that did the dirty work.

I guess it depends on what your definition of enforcer is. If you are going with the Oakley definition (will slap you in the mouth, borderline thug/dirty player) then the Rockets and first 3-peat Bulls didn't have any players like that. They just happened to have two supreme stars that were better than everyone else in crunch time, and good surrounding talent. Hakeem & MJ were not dirty, enforcer type players. Their skills just allowed them to rise above/beyond dirty tactics from other teams (i.e. Rockets not winning until Hakeem could control his temper through his religion, MJ and Pippen getting past the bullying of Detroit, etc). I guess you could argue that Shaq is like that from the bow he laid on Dirk, but I would say he wasn't considering how much abuse he takes and how he rarely goes after players. I guess you could say Bowen is an enforcer type....

I think the main difference with all those teams was the ability of their star player to turn special and take over when the team needed them (ala Dirk against SA in 06), not turn passive and dissapear (ala Dirk against GSW in 07).

Silk Smoov · 10-27-2007, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

I guess it depends on what your definition of enforcer is. If you are going with the Oakley definition (will slap you in the mouth, borderline thug/dirty player) then the Rockets and first 3-peat Bulls didn't have any players like that. They just happened to have two supreme stars that were better than everyone else in crunch time, and good surrounding talent. Hakeem & MJ were not dirty, enforcer type players. Their skills just allowed them to rise above/beyond dirty tactics from other teams (i.e. Rockets not winning until Hakeem could control his temper through his religion, MJ and Pippen getting past the bullying of Detroit, etc). I guess you could argue that Shaq is like that from the bow he laid on Dirk, but I would say he wasn't considering how much abuse he takes and how he rarely goes after players. I guess you could say Bowen is an enforcer type....

I think the main difference with all those teams was the ability of their star player to turn special and take over when the team needed them (ala Dirk against SA in 06), not turn passive and dissapear (ala Dirk against GSW in 07).

I guess you may not be old enough to remember the true tactics of the game. MJ and Hakeem were borderline dirty. MJ was very dirty and used many dirty tactics. MJ didn't have the strongest hands in the league for no reason. Ask offensive players back then about those hands. He used those hands on offense and defense. On offense, he used them to slap off your hand trying to defend him, he used them to wrap around you to get past you as well. On defense, he used them to steer you where he wanted you to go. He grabbed the jersey with them and with his strength it slowed you down.

Pippen did the same exact thing, plus they both were enforcers on the perimeter. Also, MJ had enforcers like Horace Grant, Rodman type players as well who enforced the lane. They used a 4 headed center rotation to use of dirty fouls on the centers. They did not worry about fouls because they had 24 fouls to give in the lane.

The Rockets had Akeem, who was a beast on defense and enforced many blows to the defender. He was mentally tough and demanded greatness and "THE BALL" on offense.

Lastly, you said Bowen is an enforcer, but really he is not. He is more of a sticky thorn in your side. He does not enforce too much, because he works by getting into your head mentally. Which in turn fires up the other player. SA as a whole play very dirty. That is also a form of an enforcer.

alby · 10-27-2007, 12:09 PM

The game is not like how it was 20 years ago. Or even 10 years ago.

dalmations202 · 10-27-2007, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

I guess you may not be old enough to remember the true tactics of the game. MJ and Hakeem were borderline dirty. MJ was very dirty and used many dirty tactics. MJ did have the strongest hands in the league for no reason. Ask offensive players back then about those hands. He used those hands on offense and defense. On offense, he used them to slap off your hand trying to defend him, he used them to wrap around you to get past you as well. On defense, he used them to steer you where he wanted you to go. He grabbed the jersey with them and with his strength it slowed you down.

Pippen did the same exact thing, plus they both were enforcers on the perimeter. Also, MJ had enforcers like Horace Grant, Rodman type players as well who enforced the lane. They used a 4 headed center rotation to use of dirty fouls on the centers. They did not worry about fouls because they had 24 fouls to give in the lane.

The Rockets had Akeem, who was a beast on defense and enforced many blows to the defender. He was mentally tough and demanded greatness and "THE BALL" on offense.

Lastly, you said Bowen is an enforcer, but really he is not. He is more of a sticky thorn in your side. He does not enforce too much, because he works by getting into your head mentally. Which in turn fires up the other player. SA as a whole play very dirty. That is also a form of an enforcer.

I'll give you MJ and Hakeem on the play dirty team, but I'd win with Lambeir, Karl Malone, and Kurt Rambis. Those three played dirty all the time, and got away with it most.

kingmalaki · 10-27-2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

I guess you may not be old enough to remember the true tactics of the game. MJ and Hakeem were borderline dirty. MJ was very dirty and used many dirty tactics. MJ did have the strongest hands in the league for no reason. Ask offensive players back then about those hands. He used those hands on offense and defense. On offense, he used them to slap off your hand trying to defend him, he used them to wrap around you to get past you as well. On defense, he used them to steer you where he wanted you to go. He grabbed the jersey with them and with his strength it slowed you down.

Pippen did the same exact thing, plus they both were enforcers on the perimeter. Also, MJ had enforcers like Horace Grant, Rodman type players as well who enforced the lane. They used a 4 headed center rotation to use of dirty fouls on the centers. They did not worry about fouls because they had 24 fouls to give in the lane.

The Rockets had Akeem, who was a beast on defense and enforced many blows to the defender. He was mentally tough and demanded greatness and "THE BALL" on offense.

Lastly, you said Bowen is an enforcer, but really he is not. He is more of a sticky thorn in your side. He does not enforce too much, because he works by getting into your head mentally. Which in turn fires up the other player. SA as a whole play very dirty. That is also a form of an enforcer.

What is your definition of an enforcer? MJ, Pippen and Hakeem were all physical players..but then again they played in a very physical era of basketball where players were routinely mugged while driving to the basket, could be bodyslammed, no flagrant fouls, etc. The game was just physical then but I don't recall any of those players playing dirty. My definition of a dirty player from that time frame would be Karl Malone (accidently kicking folks) or any Detroit Piston, but definately not Hakeem, Pippen or MJ. Hakeem had a temper and you could bait him to foght early on in his career, but that's not dirty play.

As far as MJ and Pip on the perimiter, they just happened to be two great defenders with size and agility/speed. They weren't dirty though. The NY Knicks from that time and slugball, now you could argue that some of them were dirty (Mason, Oakley, etc).

Silk Smoov · 10-27-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

What is your definition of an enforcer? MJ, Pippen and Hakeem were all physical players..but then again they played in a very physical era of basketball where players were routinely mugged while driving to the basket, could be bodyslammed, no flagrant fouls, etc. The game was just physical then but I don't recall any of those players playing dirty. My definition of a dirty player from that time frame would be Karl Malone (accidently kicking folks) or any Detroit Piston, but definately not Hakeem, Pippen or MJ. Hakeem had a temper and you could bait him to foght early on in his career, but that's not dirty play.

As far as MJ and Pip on the perimiter, they just happened to be two great defenders with size and agility/speed. They weren't dirty though. The NY Knicks from that time and slugball, now you could argue that some of them were dirty (Mason, Oakley, etc).

Real simple. Enforcer is very physical and/or borderline dirty. All those players I named are considered enforcer types. Some players take it to another level with enforcing, but overall title teams have enforcers on the team.

Yes, the game was very physical back then, but the team that won the title had the enforcer type players on it. Hakeem, Pippen, and MJ were all enforcer types in the game. Sometimes enforcers are more mental game than physical game. Sometimes enforcers best you with the mental aspect of the game. They overmatched you when it counted.

We can all agree 1997 and backwards were times of very physical play and legal hand-checking and whatnots. We can agree here!!!

OK since, 1999 the champions have been SA,Lakers,Pistons, and Heat. All of those teams had enforcer type players on it. There is no way around it, they had enforcer types. We can just about all agree that the Mavs are lacking the true enforcer types. Closest thing we have is Damp, but Damp will not beat you with physical play.

The Heat/Mavs championship series came down to who imposed their will on the game. The Heat turned up the heat on the Mavs with Haslem, and Zo. They became very physical with the Mavs and closed down the lane COMPLETELY. We got ZERO in the paint. They closed the lane, then Wade beat the Mavs mentally. Yes, he had help from the refs, but he was the best player on the court from Game 3. He mentally enforced his will on the Mavs.

This year, SA mentally, physically beat the shi* out of the Cavs from the tip of game 1 in the finals.

Day1MavsFan · 10-27-2007, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Are you honestly questioning dirks work ethic in the off season???? There are reasons to question dirk but that damn sure isnt one of them. As for the "we failed, my game needs work "and so forth comments have you even read any of his comments from the last two years??? Hes said that too much.

Yes, I am questioning his work ethic this past off-season. I, among others, have been waiting for him to add an inside game for several years, to no avail. If there was any off-season during which he should have worked on one, it was this one. I'm not saying he's fat and lazy, but I think it's reasonable to question his willingness to improve.

I didn't say that he's never ever said anything about his game needing work. What I said was that that's what he should be saying when asked about losing to Golden State, but mostly I was saying that his "hot team" comments were ridiculous.

Day1MavsFan · 10-27-2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

You contradicted yourself in laughable fashion. First you said Dirk needs to stop acting like losing is no big deal and instead talk about what a huge failure he is. Then you say it doesn't matter what he says in the interviews about how much losing bothers him! And no shit there's no action, the season hasn't started yet.

I can't believe you judge his heart by his attitude at the ALL STAR GAME. I wouldn't even say he's happy to be there; it's more like he's there just because. The fact he doesn't care a crap about it is a positive thing; he knows when the game is important and when it isn't.

Did you read my post? I didn't say that Dirk needs to stop acting like losing is no big deal. I said that he needs to stop using the "ran into a hot team" excuse. How you got that confused is what's laughable.

My point about his comments regarding how losing hurts was that these comments don't mean that he's actually going to play more determined on the court in order to succeed. This is not contradictory at all to my comments about his excuse about the GS loss. I wasn't referring to just the GS loss, either, but the Miami loss as well (read the post). I didn't see a determined Dirk last year and I didn't see one this off-season. The off-season may not mean a whole lot, but what he did during it doesn't fill me with confidence that he will be more determined this season.

My All-Star game comment was just a single example of his lack of determination. I guess I could have thrown in some other examples to balance it out, or maybe it was just a bad example.

To sum everything up here... if you don't think that there's any reason to question Dirk's determination, then you're either drinking so much Kool-Aid that you can't see straight or you haven't been watching. If it wasn't obvious during the Miami series, then it was certainly glaring during the GS one.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-28-2007, 12:31 AM

Don't give me that "read my post" bullshit. If what you posted isn't what you mean, try the edit button.

Dirk can say whatever the hell he wants to get reporters out of his face. He's going to be taking crap from them all year, and if thats the way he gets rid of them then so be it. Besides, Avery and Devin Harris have used the "hot team" mantra as well, so it probably wasn't his idea.

"He's the guy that you don't have to encourage him to get in the gym, he's the guy you have to lock out of the gym." -Mark Cuban

So basically you're complaining not that he doesn't work on his game, but that he doesn't work the exact skill you want him to. Well there's two things wrong with that sentiment.

First of all, it's just flat out incorrect. Avery has been pounding the low-post idea into his head ever since he became head coach.

Secondly, there's no reason to believe it would give a better result. Dirk is a shooter. Face it. You can either have him be a mediocre post-player at best, or one of the most deadly outside shooters in the game. If we cloned him and you put the low-post Dirk on your team and I put the shooter Dirk on mine, all other things equal I would win every time.

Most teams adopt a system where the main goal is to maximize its superstar's strengths. A big problem with the Mavericks is that too often the superstar has to modify the way he plays according to some other system. (Ironically, this is what makes us UNLIKE the Spurs, no matter what Avery thinks.) I believe this is one of the main reasons we lost the GS series. Dirk tried too hard to be the player Avery wanted him to be, and not the player that won him MVP. It was only when he gave Avery's system the finger that he was able to save Game 5, and he almost saved Game 4.

Lastly, I absolutely cannot stand any comments using words like homer, koolaid, etc. It's not really much better than childish name-calling, and is a bad substitution for argument.

pkdumas · 10-28-2007, 12:53 AM

Worst. Thread. Ever.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-28-2007, 12:54 AM

Nope, that would be any thread in the Political Forum with credit participating.

pkdumas · 10-28-2007, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Nope, that would be any thread in the Political Forum with credit participating.

hahaha

mary · 10-28-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day1MavsFan

Yes, I am questioning his work ethic this past off-season. I, among others, have been waiting for him to add an inside game for several years, to no avail. If there was any off-season during which he should have worked on one, it was this one. I'm not saying he's fat and lazy, but I think it's reasonable to question his willingness to improve.

I didn't say that he's never ever said anything about his game needing work. What I said was that that's what he should be saying when asked about losing to Golden State, but mostly I was saying that his "hot team" comments were ridiculous.

Perhaps it would be reasonable if you could provide some anecdotal evidence that Dirk doesn't have a good work ethic...doesn't show up for pracdtices, always the first to leave the gym, shows up to camp overweight...etc.

Its already been pointed out that everything we read and hear shows that Dirk's work ethic has been nothing but solid. For pete's sakes, his own coach has fined him for practicing on "off" days.

Your assertion that Dirk doesn't have a good inside game because he doesn't care is nothing close to reasonable. Its a weakness in his game.

Do you think Tim Duncan sucks at FT shooting because he doesnt' work hard enough?

mary · 10-28-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Nope, that would be any thread in the Political Forum with credit participating.

..or any thread in which he tries to decipher the super-complex CBA.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-28-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

..or any thread in which he tries to decipher the super-complex CBA.

Oh, I thought those were the best threads.

Five-ofan · 10-29-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day1MavsFan

Yes, I am questioning his work ethic this past off-season. I, among others, have been waiting for him to add an inside game for several years, to no avail. If there was any off-season during which he should have worked on one, it was this one. I'm not saying he's fat and lazy, but I think it's reasonable to question his willingness to improve.

I didn't say that he's never ever said anything about his game needing work. What I said was that that's what he should be saying when asked about losing to Golden State, but mostly I was saying that his "hot team" comments were ridiculous.

you are questioning a player who may have made the biggest improvement from his start in the nba to where he is now in the history of the nba about his willingness to improve? That smacks of stupidity and ignorance.

Five-ofan · 10-29-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day1MavsFan

Did you read my post? I didn't say that Dirk needs to stop acting like losing is no big deal. I said that he needs to stop using the "ran into a hot team" excuse. How you got that confused is what's laughable.

My point about his comments regarding how losing hurts was that these comments don't mean that he's actually going to play more determined on the court in order to succeed. This is not contradictory at all to my comments about his excuse about the GS loss. I wasn't referring to just the GS loss, either, but the Miami loss as well (read the post). I didn't see a determined Dirk last year and I didn't see one this off-season. The off-season may not mean a whole lot, but what he did during it doesn't fill me with confidence that he will be more determined this season.

My All-Star game comment was just a single example of his lack of determination. I guess I could have thrown in some other examples to balance it out, or maybe it was just a bad example.

To sum everything up here... if you don't think that there's any reason to question Dirk's determination, then you're either drinking so much Kool-Aid that you can't see straight or you haven't been watching. If it wasn't obvious during the Miami series, then it was certainly glaring during the GS one.

You didnt see a determined dirk last year? did you just tune in for the playoffs? did you skip the whole damn year? He won the damn mvp.