Josh Howard

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Size? Diaw is one inch taller. He's also only had one good year out of five. For god's sake his per is 11! I understand you're frustrated with Josh but you're reaching here.

Diaw hasn't been given NEAR the opportunities that Howard has been given. See, that's the rub in all of this. I'm pretty sure that a Pietrus or a Diaw would pretty look awesome starting at the three for the Mavs, in their fifth year in this system.

I'm glad to have Howard. But I recognize that he's not measurably better than several other guys would have been, in his same situation. And it irks me to see him play such an "individual" game.

[LonghornDub]

IMO, Josh is far better than Pietrus, and somewhat better than Barbosa. He's not as good as West, at least not this season.

[dirno2000]

Make excuses if you'd like. Pietrus had the same opportunity that Monta Ellis had and Diaw had the same opportunity that Grant Hill had. The bottom line is that they've been in the league for 5 years and for the most part have been very unproductive.

But we're getting away from the comment that led us in this direction. You say that Josh slipped to 29 because there were concerns that he was a dumb player. Well he's been in the league five years and, in your mind, those concerns were valid. Are you saying that he's still go somewhere in the late 20's if GM's were allowed to redraft?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Make excuses if you'd like. Pietrus had the same opportunity that Monta Ellis had and Diaw had the same opportunity that Grant Hill had. The bottom line is that they've been in the league for 5 years and for the most part have been very unproductive.

But we're getting away from the comment that led us in this direction. You say that Josh slipped to 29 because there were concerns that he was a dumb player. Well he's been in the league five years and, in your mind, those concerns were valid. Are you saying that he's still go somewhere in the late 20's if GM's were allowed to redraft?

I said there was a reason he slipped to 29, and I stand behind that. Obviously, when you redraft you are going to look at the body of work over the last five years. He'd go between ten and fifteen if they re-drafted, according to the needs of the team.

[dirno2000]

Just to put my cards on the table, the following players would or may go ahead of Josh in a redraft. James, Bosh, Wade, Anthony, West and Kaman.

[bernardos70]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

A little home cooking should get Josh back where he needs to be tomorrow.

He could move the ball a little more decisively though. Where as the rest of the team seems to be deciding what to do with the ball before they've even caught it, he seems to catch it, set his feet, take a shifty glance at the basket, put the ball on the floor, and then decide where it needs to go. Not fast enough.

I like what Lawrence Frank of the Nets said when we played them (though he was talking about his own players):

"The game of basketball is very simple. Any given player shouldn't hold the ball more than two seconds while doing nothing, or just pounding the ball; I call those players ball stoppers. Every player should make a decision within 2 seconds of receiving the ball: to pass, to dribble, or to shoot. If you do neither, you're disrupting the whole offense."

I love Josh, and it's taking him a little while longer to adjust, but I believe it'll come around for him. Or at least I hope. He's terribly gifted to go to waste like this. Let's hope.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Diaw hasn't been given NEAR the opportunities that Howard has been given. See, that's the rub in all of this. I'm pretty sure that a Pietrus or a Diaw would pretty look awesome starting at the three for the Mavs, in their fifth year in this system.

I'm glad to have Howard. But I recognize that he's not measurably better than several other guys would have been, in his same situation. And it irks me to see him play such an "individual" game.

Diaw has been given a pretty good opportunity by Phoenix to play in a system that fits exactly how he plays, and he's responded by being fat and unmotivated at times. He may not have the opportunity to start a lot, but that's because he hasn't come out and snatched that opportunity to start. Josh on the other hand did, even when he was in a pretty crowded situation for playing time his first couple of years. Some were speculating before his second season whether he'd be playing much more than 10-15 minutes a game.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I said there was a reason he slipped to 29, and I stand behind that. Obviously, when you redraft you are going to look at the body of work over the last five years. He'd go between ten and fifteen if they re-drafted, according to the needs of the team.

I get it. You're f'in with me. You're to smart a guy to honestly believe that he may go at 15.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I get it. You're f'in with me. You're to smart a guy to honestly believe that he may go at 15.

Lebron, Darko, Melo, Bosh, and Wade still go ahead of him. So does Kaman. So does TJ Ford, the Longhorns great, because someone is going to need PG play. That's seven. David West goes ahead of him. That's eight. Diaw goes ahead of him. That's nine. That leaves him in a range with Heinrich, Pietrus, Outlaw, and Barbosa. Maybe fourteen is the lowest he goes, it's true.

[nashtymavsfan13]

This board sure likes finding scapegoats to hate on. Can we please just chalk this up to Howard going through a rough patch that will be fixed as soon as he starts attacking the basket again and all go back to hating on Stack?

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Lebron, Darko, Melo, Bosh, and Wade still go ahead of him. So does Kaman. So does TJ Ford, the Longhorns great, because someone is going to need PG play. That's seven. David West goes ahead of him. That's eight. Diaw goes ahead of him. That's nine. That leaves him in a range with Heinrich, Pietrus, Outlaw, and Barbosa. Maybe fourteen is the lowest he goes, it's true.

You honestly believe that there are basketball people who, if given a choice today, would take Diaw and Darko over Howard?

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You honestly believe that there are basketball people who, if given a choice today, would take Diaw and Darko over Howard?

Kevin Mchale and Isiah Thomas? Other than that I don't see who would.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

This board sure likes finding scapegoats to hate on. Can we please just chalk this up to Howard going through a rough patch that will be fixed as soon as he starts attacking the basket again and all go back to hating on Stack?

On the other side of the coin, it's a compliment to Howard, because the only reason we're criticizing him is that we know how good he can be.

Stack is Stack. He is what he is. Howard is much more than what he's showing right now--that's what's frustrating.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You honestly believe that there are basketball people who, if given a choice today, would take Diaw and Darko over Howard?

Someone would take Darko on size alone. I'd take Diaw and not think twice about it.

Why do you believe Howard is that much a better player than Diaw?

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

On the other side of the coin, it's a compliment to Howard, because the only reason we're criticizing him is that we know how good he can be.

Stack is Stack. He is what he is. Howard is much more than what he's showing right now--that's what's frustrating.

The problem is that it starts to feed itself. Soon you get people throwing out random spares and calling them better players. If he doesn't turn it around soon it will degenerate to Josh sucks. Like I said, the same thing happened with Roy Williams.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

The problem is that it starts to feed itself. Soon you get people throwing out random spares and calling them better players. If he doesn't turn it around soon it will degenerate to Josh sucks. Like I said, the same thing happened with Roy Williams.

Well I personally don't care for Roy Williams, so maybe you're right. Of course, some of that has to do with his college allegiance, and the fact that one of my favorite college football players of all time shares his namesake.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Someone would take Darko on size alone. I'd take Diaw and not think twice about it.

No..they wouldn't. Five years and three teams and he still sucks. All thinks being equal you take size but all things are nowhere near equal here.

Why do you believe Howard is that much a better player than Diaw?

Because, for all his faults, Howard is productive and Diaw isn't. He's had one good season. Every other year he's been below average.

You're the one making the outlandish claim, you tell me why Diaw is better.

[Stressboy]

The new order would be Lebron, Bosh, Wade, Carmelo, Kaman, Hinrich, Mo Williams, Barbosa, West, Josh, Ford, outlaw, then maybe Diaw but I would put him in a pick'em group with ridnour, steve blake, Luke Walton, Kapono, Korver, Perkins. Diaw's good year came when he was the pick and roll option with Nash. That inflates anyones numbers. He can't guard jack squat while Josh gets it on both ends. Josh was at his best in previous years when he just got his through junk. He has fallen apart as of late because we started running things through him when we got a good jump shot. Avery needs to tell him to earn his the hard way again. I want to see 3-5 offensive rebounds a game from josh to get his twenty.

[chumdawg]

I believe that if not for the Mavs' system, Josh Howard could have easily been Boris Diaw. Diaw has athletic gifts every bit as good as, if not better than, Howard's. Howard just happened to luck into a tremendous opportunity. He got heavy minutes from Day One, on a good team. Give a guy like Diaw that and see what he does with it.

What is Howard presently doing with it?

[dirno2000]

stressboy 3 offensive rebounds is a his standard for a sf. the only one close is carmello with 2.5 but if you watch him you know that he misses a lot of layups and ends up putting them back in.

[dirno2000]

So diaw sucks because in five years with Atlanta and PHX he's never been given an opportunity and Josh is a product of Nellie's, then Avery's system. ok.

[you]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Truth be told, he's looking like exactly what he is: the 29th pick in the draft.

The steal of that draft wasn't Howard at 29, it was Barbosa at 28.

You can call Josh Howard a lot of things, but you certainly can't call him smart.

You cant seriously believe this crap.

It reeks of the delusional thoughts of a person who thinks that they are right in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

This board sure likes finding scapegoats to hate on. Can we please just chalk this up to Howard going through a rough patch that will be fixed as soon as he starts attacking the basket again and all go back to hating on Stack?

I'll believe it's just a "rough patch" when he comes out of it. Right now I'm not too hopeful that he's going to come out of it. If he were playing the way he's always played and was just missing his shots, that'd be one thing. But the fact is he's completely changed the way he plays the game. He used to be the most aggressive guy on the team, by a fairly wide margin. Now, he's by a pretty wide margin, the most complacent guy on the team. I swear every time he touches the ball now it's the same thing. He stands there for a few seconds from 20 feet or so out, takes one sidestep and then jacks up a shot which clanks off the front of the rim.

And I for one am sick and tired of people on this board getting accused of "hating" or whatever you want to call it, when they criticize someone who is underachieving. The simple fact is that Josh Howard is playing like crap, and has been for a while now.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by you

You cant seriously believe this crap.

It reeks of the delusional thoughts of a person who thinks that they are right in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

Can't believe what? That Josh Howard isn't smart? I can believe that very easily. He's looking dumber than Stackhouse these days, and that's saying something.

[Dirkadirkastan]

come on josh, do better next time~~~

[jthig32]

Chum you have lost your damn mind on this. Phoenix would trade Diaw for Josh in an instant and laught about it all the way to the bank.

Dirno's assessment of who would go over Josh in a redraft is dead on.

I'm frustrated with Josh right now too, but let's please relax just a tad.

[Dirkenstien]

Yeah Josh will come around, and when he does I feel sorry for the rest of the league. Kidd will turn him into a complete monster.

[Nbalegend41]

he just needs to go back to the old days when he was a slasher....it seems that he now just settles for jumpers

[uberfan]

At one time I was intrigued with the idea that Josh was our future SG. This year, even before the Kidd trade, has proven to me that that will not work. Josh needs to go back to being JoHo.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

And I for one am sick and tired of people on this board getting accused of "hating" or whatever you want to call it, when they criticize someone who is underachieving. The simple fact is that Josh Howard is playing like crap, and has been for a while now.

for me, it not just that Josh is underachieving....its the way he is doing it. He is gobbling up tons of attempts, making terrible decisions with the ball, and stagnating the offense to a significant degree. If he was willing to struggle through his "rough patch" (as some have called it) quietly by cutting down attempts and focusing on strong defense and taking only good shots then I would see a player who is playing a team game...but as it is right now, he is playing a rather selfish game that is cutting into the production of his teammates and his team.

If AJ comes out and says he has told Josh to shoot himself through this dry season then I wouldn't hold it against Josh...but I don't think that is the case.

All in all I am willing to show most players a lot of grace...but this has been Josh's game for far too long and something needs to happen to change it...maybe Kidd will prove capable where Josh himself and AJ were not...maybe Kidd can curb Josh's appetite for a soft and selfish game by rewarding him with easy baskets by running the floor and attacking the rim. I'm hopeful, but not holding my breath.

[foglemann]

Above all the crappy playing, if Josh takes more shots than Dirk, I'm throwing in the towel on Avery and Josh. No court on this planet, forever in time, should Josh take more shots than Dirk. Its that simple. Why isn't this taught to Josh, who only got a jumper last year. Now he's Finley and can take all the shots he gets his hands on. Its gotten harmful to the team.

[endrity]

Is there a chance that the money got to him? Now he thinks he's a star so doesn't have to hustle like he once had to in order to get respect in the league.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Stressboy

The new order would be Lebron, Bosh, Wade, Carmelo, Kaman, Hinrich, Mo Williams, Barbosa, West, Josh, Ford, outlaw, then maybe Diaw but I would put him in a pick'em group with ridnour, steve blake, Luke Walton, Kapono, Korver, Perkins.

off subject , but, has there ever been a better draft? Wow!

I think I'll tinker with Stress's list a bit...

sike's official top ten (which is the correct order obviously) is: Bron, Wade, Carmelo, Bosh, Kaman, West, JHo, Mo Williams, T.J., and Hinrich. Barbosa is totally a product of the Suns system and is too much of a "tweener" to crack my top ten...and Diaw has shown nothing but flashes of what his potential could be...He is quite a defensive liability as well.

[sike]

Originally Posted by endrity

Is there a chance that the money got to him? Now he thinks he's a star so doesn't have to hustle like he once had to in order to get respect in the league.

Not sure about the money...but his game did take on a new look around the time he became an all star...almost as if he had "arrived" and didn't realize what the things were (attacking the rim, moving without the ball, second chance scores, solid defense) that had gotten him there.

I wonder now if the worst thing for Josh's career was developing a decent jumper from beyond 18 feet out?

[endrity]

Originally Posted by sike

off subject , but, has there ever been a better draft? Wow!

I think I'll tinker with Stress's list a bit...

sike's official top ten (which is the correct order obviously) is: Bron, Wade, Carmelo, Bosh, Kaman, West, JHo, Mo Williams, T.J., and Hinrich. Barbosa is totally a product of the Suns system and is too much of a "tweener" to crack my top ten...and Diaw has shown nothing but flashes of what his potential could be...He is quite a defensive liability as well.

I was thinking the same thing earlier, and I went to check all of the drat picks. Everyone knows about the top 5, and the bottom 2 guys, but you have David West there, guys like Mo Williams, Diaw, and to a certain extent Pietrus, all legitimate contributors in this league. That draft alone changed all of the landscape of the NBA. It comes around about once in 15 years.

[dirno2000]

The dept of that draft, especially the top 10, makes the Darko pick one of the worst in history. If Det. had Wade, Bosh or even Kaman we'd be talking dynasty.

As far as Josh, I actually wonder if the multiple ankle sprains haven't had an adverse effect on his game. I've seen it happen before. It's hard to come down on someone's foot shooting fade aways.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

As far as Josh, I actually wonder if the multiple ankle sprains haven't had an adverse effect on his game. I've seen it happen before. It's hard to come down on someone's foot shooting fade aways.

as both of us are just speculating...I doubt the sprains have anything to do with Josh's increasing lack of desire to attack the rim. Its just easier to settle...and like Nash said..."Its rough in there."

[rabbitproof]

The guy is a few games off a back injury, had food-poisoning and is also adjusting to new teammates. Not to say there isn't room for improvement, even in the current state of things, but to say he's Pietrus level is beyond it... this has to be another rise-getting bit.

Even Don would laugh his old man to shame if that was the offer on the table.

[stewartj]

Josh Howard
Career Averages Rebounds
YR TM G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
03-04 Dal 67 29 23.7 3.4-7.9 .430 0.3-1.0 .303 1.4-2.1 .703 1.0 0.8 1.0 2.5 2.2 3.3 5.5 1.4 8.6
04-05 Dal 76 76 32.2 5.0-10.4 .475 0.4-1.5 .296 2.2-3.1 .733 1.5 0.6 1.6 2.8 2.2 4.1 6.3 1.4 12.6
05-06 Dal 59 58 32.5 5.9-12.6 .471 0.5-1.1 .429 3.3-4.5 .734 1.2 0.4 1.3 2.8 2.1 4.2 6.3 1.9 15.6
06-07 Dal 70 69 35.1 7.0-15.4 .459 1.3-3.4 .385 3.5-4.2 .827 1.2 0.8 1.8 2.6 1.9 4.9 6.8 1.8 18.9
07-08 Dal 51 51 36.5 7.5-16.4 .459 1.0-2.9 .342 3.9-4.8 .805 0.8 0.4 1.5 2.8 1.6 5.8 7.3 2.0 20.0

Boris Diaw
Career Averages Rebounds
YR TM G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
03-04 Atl 76 37 25.3 1.8-4.1 .447 0.1-0.3 .231 0.7-1.2 .602 0.8 0.5 1.7 2.5 1.5 3.0 4.5 2.4 4.5
04-05 Atl 66 25 18.2 1.9-4.5 .422 0.1-0.8 .180 0.9-1.2 .740 0.6 0.3 1.3 1.9 0.8 1.8 2.6 2.3 4.8
05-06 Pho 81 70 35.5 5.5-10.5 .526 0.1-0.4 .267 2.1-2.9 .731 0.7 1.0 2.3 3.2 2.0 4.9 6.9 6.2 13.3
06-07 Pho 73 59 31.2 4.2-7.8 .538 0.2-0.6 .333 1.1-1.6 .683 0.4 0.5 2.1 2.4 1.3 3.1 4.3 4.8 9.7
07-08 Pho 56 18 28.6 3.5-7.7 .452 0.2-0.5 .333 1.0-1.3 .757 0.7 0.5 1.9 1.9 1.1 3.4 4.5 3.9 8.1
G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
Totals 352 209 28.1 3.4-7.0 .493 0.1-0.5 .265 1.2-1.7 .706 0.6 0.6 1.9 2.4 1.4 3.3 4.7 4.0 8.2

In what everyone recognizes as an off year for Josh, he's averaging career highs in points, boards, and assists. His efficiency is down from the last couple years as are his steals and blocks. However, he's still ranked #6 in Hollinger's PER for SF's, while Diaw is 49th amongst PF. Diaw has been getting around 30 minutes a game for 3 years now for one of the highest scoring, most free flowing offenses in basketball, while Josh has been playing for one of the slowest teams. All comparisons between the two really need to stop. We have a top 10 at his position and we got him with the 29th pick in the draft. Even if he would have gone 10-15 in that draft, think where he would go in any other year - any year where Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, etc. didn't come out.

[stewartj]

Pietrus is ranked 52 amonst SF in PER, behind guys like Boky Nachbar, Jarvis Hayes, Desmond Mason, and even Michael Finley. Brandon Bass ranks ahead of Diaw. I know PER isn't everything but in leveling the playing field amongst players getting wildly different minutes, it's useful.