Josh Howard owes the fans an apology - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

but usually when people use that word...they are admitting a negative outlook. Nobody wants to sacrifice...it sounds more like it something he'll have to do bc Kidd is here instead of "Holy, HECK....Jason Kidd is going to make me better on the offensive end!"....

Again though, it's kind of like Josh is being demoted. He's being asked to become more of a role player again, in some respects. So I think the angle of sacrifice is somewhat valid.

LonghornDub · 03-10-2008, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

but usually when people use that word...they are admitting a negative outlook. Nobody wants to sacrifice...it sounds more like it something he'll have to do bc Kidd is here instead of "Holy, HECK....Jason Kidd is going to make me better on the offensive end!"....

I don't agree with that. Sacrifice can have a positive connotation. The whole point of the word is that it doesn't just refer to what you "give up", it also implies that you gain something. That's the difference between "loss" and "sacrifice".

Sacrifice bunt? Sacrifice fly? Are those things negative? How bout the adage that marriages require certain sacrifice? Or when they talk about soldiers "sacrificing" their lives? All those things refer to "bad" immediate outcomes, but that serve a greater good. That's what the word means.

Sorry, I just don't think it's a bad thing. The whole reason to use a word like sacrifice is that it implies you're getting something in return, a sort of reciprocal relationship.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Once again, I think Josh is going to be just fine for this team.

I think if he will just run with Kidd he will have an opportunity to be more efficient than ever before AND still get his shots.

But when a guy talks about "sacrifice" he is expressing a bit of a negative outlook...even if presented in a "I'll make the best of it" scenario.

I agree that Josh will come around...or I hope he will. This trade will be good for him and help break him of some of the selfish habits he had been allowed to form the past year and a half.

chumdawg · 03-10-2008, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Sacrifice as in play a role that he thinks might be slightly beneath them. Fill a role when he feels like he could be filling a bigger role, but for the good of the team he plays a lesser part in the offense.

Stack has done it, Jet has done it, and Josh needs to do it, and it sounds like he recognizes it. Sounds good to me.

The problem is that he sees it as a sacrifice. To sacrifice is to give up something of great value in the hopes that you receive something back that is of even greater value. It is, by its very nature, selfish.

Stack didn't sacrifice anything by accepting a sixth-man role. Rather, he accepted the reality of the situation--which is to say, he's not the same player he used to be. Terry didn't sacrifice anything, either. He still gets to do the things he is good at.

What Howard sees as sacrifice is instead just a coming to terms with the role he is most effective playing. If Howard has to "sacrifice" the alpha-male role he has in his head...well, that's good for the Mavs, but it certainly isn't a sacrifice. I'd call it more a correction.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I don't agree with that. Sacrifice can have a positive connotation. The whole point of the word is that it doesn't just refer to what you "give up", it also implies that you gain something. That's the difference between "loss" and "sacrifice".

Sacrifice bunt? Sacrifice fly? Are those things negative? How bout the adage that marriages require certain sacrifice? Or when they talk about soldiers "sacrificing" their lives? All those things refer to "bad" immediate outcomes, but that serve a greater good. That's what the word means.

Sorry, I just don't think it's a bad thing. The whole reason to use a word like sacrifice is that it implies you're getting something in return, a sort of reciprocal relationship.

I don't think its a bad thing either....but I do think when Josh Howard uses it in this case it is reflective of a bit of selfishness. Not in the great ways you mentioned. Or do you really think Josh was thinking of marriage?

Flacolaco · 03-10-2008, 11:10 PM

I see what you're saying Chum, but the sacrifice, so to speak, is in the eye of the beholder. To Josh, it is definitely a sacrifice, where as to you and me it just makes good sense.

Sad but true. Not all athletes are the kind of guys we would like to think they all are. They're looking out for #1.

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The problem is that he sees it as a sacrifice. To sacrifice is to give up something of great value in the hopes that you receive something back that is of even greater value. It is, by its very nature, selfish.

Stack didn't sacrifice anything by accepting a sixth-man role. Rather, he accepted the reality of the situation--which is to say, he's not the same player he used to be. Terry didn't sacrifice anything, either. He still gets to do the things he is good at.

What Howard sees as sacrifice is instead just a coming to terms with the role he is most effective playing. If Howard has to "sacrifice" the alpha-male role he has in his head...well, that's good for the Mavs, but it certainly isn't a sacrifice. I'd call it more a correction.

Man, I guarantee you that Stack in the past has seen his role as a sacrifice. And Terry this season most certainly does. Starting is a badge of honor in the NBA.

I gurantee you if they're hooked up to a truth machine they use the word sacrifice for the good of the team to describe their roles.

Really, it's all moot though. I don't care what Howard sees it as, as long as he has a good attitude about it. The word sacrifice does not mean he's unhappy about it.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The problem is that he sees it as a sacrifice.

exactly....Josh should be seeing Jason Kidd come to his team and be kissing Cuban and Donnie's Nike's not talking about "sacrifice".

vocabulary reveals much about one's mindset

LonghornDub · 03-10-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I don't think its a bad thing either....but I do think when Josh Howard uses it in this case it is reflective of a bit of selfishness. Not in the great ways you mentioned. Or do you really think Josh was thinking of marriage?

All I think is that Josh is a reasonably smart guy (at least off the court), and he knows what the word sacrifice means and he knows how to use it. He clearly used it correctly there.

I really don't think it's a revelation that Howard liked being the 2nd guy, the "starter" for the team, putting up 20 ish a game. He liked being an all-star. Can you blame him?

I'm all for the "team first" ideal, but there are very, very few players who ONLY think about the team. These are their careers their thinking about, and even beyond that, these are pro athletes who pretty much all have massive egos--it's pretty much a requirement to compete at such a high level.

We shouldn't let the fact that we have probably the most selfless star in the game cloud the reality of how these things go. I'd be surprised if Howard (or 95% of athletes) DIDNT consider a "demotion" in the team pecking order something of a sacrifice.

I've been on Josh as much as anyone, but I am actually happy to hear him say this stuff. He knows that he has to re-define his role at this point--is it really that big of a deal that he considers it a sacrifice? I would, too.

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

exactly....Josh should be seeing Jason Kidd come to his team and be kissing Cuban and Donnie's Nike's not talking about "sacrifice".

vocabulary reveals much about one's mindset

And again, I couldn't care less about his mindset as long as he does it with a good attitude.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Really, it's all moot though. I don't care what Howard sees it as, as long as he has a good attitude about it. The word sacrifice does not mean he's unhappy about it.

it reveals how he feels about getting to play alongside one of the greatest point guards ever to play the game...it reveals that much.

it is only moot if he comes around...which I sure he will when he learns what every other non point guard has learned who played with JKidd: "It is freakin great for my game playing with JKidd!"....not a "sacrifice" except of some of his worse habits of ball stopping and the like.

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

All I think is that Josh is a reasonably smart guy (at least off the court), and he knows what the word sacrifice means and he knows how to use it. He clearly used it correctly there.

I really don't think it's a revelation that Howard liked being the 2nd guy, the "starter" for the team, putting up 20 ish a game. He liked being an all-star. Can you blame him?

I'm all for the "team first" ideal, but there are very, very few players who ONLY think about the team. These are their careers their thinking about, and even beyond that, these are pro athletes who pretty much all have massive egos--it's pretty much a requirement to compete at such a high level.

We shouldn't let the fact that we have probably the most selfless star in the game cloud the reality of how these things go. I'd be surprised if Howard (or 95% of athletes) DIDNT consider a "demotion" in the team pecking order something of a sacrifice.

I've been on Josh as much as anyone, but I am actually happy to hear him say this stuff. He knows that he has to re-define his role at this point--is it really that big of a deal that he considers it a sacrifice? I would, too.

Exactly. Heck there are plenty of people in every walk of life that would be bitter about losing visibility in their job because some hotshot came along and took the spotlight. Even if it meant that the company was more successful, and your job became easier, there's still going to be a small part of a lot of people that would like to have the spotlight back.

Now, as PDub mentioned, take into account the ego that is almost a requirement of someone that makes it to the level of an NBA player. I am not surprised at all for Josh to see it as a sacrifice.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

And again, I couldn't care less about his mindset as long as he does it with a good attitude.

well then we really are talking about two different things...bc I think Chum and I were talking all about Josh's mindset. Because of course playing alongside Kidd really isn't going to be a serious "sacrifice" for Josh's offensive game....it should be "Blessing" to play with a point who gets you easy buckets.

Flacolaco · 03-10-2008, 11:21 PM

Funny, never have I heard of a hockey player having a bad attitude about a diminishing role, or being shown up by a newcomer...

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

it reveals how he feels about getting to play alongside one of the greatest point guards ever to play the game...it reveals that much.

it is only moot if he comes around...which I sure he will when he learns what every other non point guard has learned who played with JKidd: "It is freakin great for my game playing with JKidd!"....not a "sacrifice" except of some of his worse habits of ball stopping and the like.

I still think you're getting it wrong on just what he's sacrificing. More than anything, it's his reputation. As long as Kidd is on the team, Josh is no longer going to be mentioned as a possible All Star. He's the third banana now. As third banana he gets fewer plays called for him and fewer shots.

Regardless of how much easier all the shots he does take are, that is still the description of a sacrifice to many, many people.

And I just don't get why that's such a horrible thing.

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

well then we really are talking about two different things...bc I think Chum and I were talking all about Josh's mindset. Because of course playing alongside Kidd really isn't going to be a serious "sacrifice" for Josh's offensive game....it should be "Blessing" to play with a point who gets you easy buckets.

Well mindset and attitude are two different things. I think we've been discussing attitude.

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Funny, never have I heard of a hockey player having a bad attitude about a diminishing role, or being shown up by a newcomer...

You have lost your mind if you don't think it happens in all sports. Modano wasn't realy happy about losing the C if I remember correctly.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Exactly. Heck there are plenty of people in every walk of life that would be bitter about losing visibility in their job because some hotshot came along and took the spotlight. Even if it meant that the company was more successful, and your job became easier, there's still going to be a small part of a lot of people that would like to have the spotlight back.

Now, as PDub mentioned, take into account the ego that is almost a requirement of someone that makes it to the level of an NBA player. I am not surprised at all for Josh to see it as a sacrifice.

You guys are nuts if you think Josh is meaning "spotlight" and "interviews" when he mentions "sacrifice". I love you...but that is just nuts. He is talking about on the court sacrifices...I'd bet flaco's balls on it.

Flacolaco · 03-10-2008, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I'd bet flaco's balls on it.

You'll have to take that up with their agent... Scott Boras

LonghornDub · 03-10-2008, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

well then we really are talking about two different things...bc I think Chum and I were talking all about Josh's mindset. Because of course playing alongside Kidd really isn't going to be a serious "sacrifice" for Josh's offensive game....it should be "Blessing" to play with a point who gets you easy buckets.

Josh used the most accurate word to describe the situation, that's all. By chum's own definition of the word (which was completely accurate), sacrifice is giving up something in hopes that you'll gain something even greater.

That's exactly what's going on. Josh is giving up his place as Dirk's sidekick, and his spot as the team's 2nd leading scorer, and any chance he has of ever making the ASG game again as a Maverick (probably) in order to help the team succeed. That is a sacrifice. I really can't blame him for his apt choice of words.

I mean, what else would you call it? Frankly, I really appreciate Josh's candid nature at times. It's nice to hear him reflect on what he's going to have to give up personally in order to benefit the team. Even if he talked about "blessings" and all that, you know he'd be thinking to himself about how he was giving up his spot in the limelight, on the court and off, just like most other athletes would.

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

You guys are nuts if you think Josh is meaning "spotlight" and "interviews" when he mentions "sacrifice". I love you...but that is just nuts. He is talking about on the court sacrifices...I'd bet flaco's balls on it.

Well, I think it's both, but I think the spotlight and his overall percpeption as a player is the bigger sacrifice.

Like I said, he can forget about making an all star game while Kidd is on the team.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well mindset and attitude are two different things. I think we've been discussing attitude.

wow...now we're really splitting hairs. Mindset and attitude are closely, closely related...yes, no?

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

wow...now we're really splitting hairs. Mindset and attitude are closely, closely related...yes, no?

I don't think so. I can be unhappy about my circumstances and still have a good attitude about it and go about my business professionally.

Maturity and self control give us the ability to keep the two distinctly seperate.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well, I think it's both, but I think the spotlight and his overall percpeption as a player is the bigger sacrifice.

Like I said, he can forget about making an all star game while Kidd is on the team.

So you, like Josh, think he numbers should slip with Kidd?

bc we both know Josh only made the all star team because of injuries and the Mavs first half record last season.

LonghornDub · 03-10-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

You guys are nuts if you think Josh is meaning "spotlight" and "interviews" when he mentions "sacrifice". I love you...but that is just nuts. He is talking about on the court sacrifices...I'd bet flaco's balls on it.

It's both. The two are interrelated. You take away his shots and his 20+ point games, you take away a lot of his post-game interviews, his praises, and his accolades. You also take away any chance of him being an all-star again.

It's all related.

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

So you, like Josh, think he numbers should slip with Kidd?

bc we both know Josh only made the all star team because of injuries and the Mavs first half record last season.

I think his number of shots will go down, and maybe his PPG will slip slightly, yes.

Flacolaco · 03-10-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

You have lost your mind if you don't think it happens in all sports. Modano wasn't realy happy about losing the C if I remember correctly.

Yeah that's partly true...though you'd never hear him say anything about it (and hopefully you'd never hear it from Josh either). But Mo's play never suffered...but it's different, as his age was declining and so was his production.

Now I thought that with the acquisition of Richards, Ribeiro might have some (yeah I know I've lost 95% of you now) fits about not being "the guy" but he's just kept on producing at a high level, and I think he's even more motivated now to keep up his good name and #1 guy standing.

chumdawg · 03-10-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

All I think is that Josh is a reasonably smart guy (at least off the court), and he knows what the word sacrifice means and he knows how to use it. He clearly used it correctly there.

I really don't think it's a revelation that Howard liked being the 2nd guy, the "starter" for the team, putting up 20 ish a game. He liked being an all-star. Can you blame him?

I'm all for the "team first" ideal, but there are very, very few players who ONLY think about the team. These are their careers their thinking about, and even beyond that, these are pro athletes who pretty much all have massive egos--it's pretty much a requirement to compete at such a high level.

We shouldn't let the fact that we have probably the most selfless star in the game cloud the reality of how these things go. I'd be surprised if Howard (or 95% of athletes) DIDNT consider a "demotion" in the team pecking order something of a sacrifice.

I've been on Josh as much as anyone, but I am actually happy to hear him say this stuff. He knows that he has to re-define his role at this point--is it really that big of a deal that he considers it a sacrifice? I would, too.

You raise some interesting points. But I think you also attempt some leaps that are too long.

First off, on the issue of "sacrificing" to make room for Jason Kidd...does anyone believe Dirk feels that way? I should hope not. Dirk looks like a guy who is invigorated by how much he can elevate his own game and how much his team can do the same.

Why wouldn't Howard feel that way? I mean, really...can you imagine Dirk talking about "sacrificing" to bring Kidd aboard? Can you even fathom that? It's pretty much impossible...and get this...it's not because Dirk is an unselfish player! Whose numbers have benefited the most since Kidd has come aboard? Well, Dirk, I would think. Dirk didn't sacrifice a damn thing when Kidd came on. Rather, Dirk became a much more lethal player.

As did Damp. As did Terry, probably.

So why does Howard feel like he is sacrificing? And for that matter--and this is important--why is he even talking about individual players sacrificing something?

P-Dub, you talk about Dirk being the most selfless player on the Mavs, but I suggest that even that is misstated. Who on the Mavs is a greater critic of himself than Nowitzki? Who takes losses the hardest? I would suggest that Dirk is a VERY selfish player, but directed in a good way. Which is to say, he takes responsibility for his play, and he feels pained when the team doesn't win.

Howard needs to be a selfish player, to the extent that it drives him to be as good as he can possibly be. But he also needs to understand that adding talent to the team does NOT undermine him...rather, it fortifies him.

He does not seem to me to have made that logical leap. And it is distressing. I disagree with you that you he is a smart player on the court and off. Too many times he has looked like an unintelligent player on the court. Off the court, I think he had some trouble with his test scores getting into college. I do not think he is a smart guy. And I feel pretty confident that he does not show much intelligence on the court, for what that is worth.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't think so. I can be unhappy about my circumstances and still have a good attitude about it and go about my business professionally.

but then you just defined "mindset" as emotions. I don't think how you "feel" (unhappy) is your mindset. Rough sike definition: Your mindset is how you see/view/perceive the situation around you...its a filter through which you choose to respond to the given situation...can emotion become involved? Sure. But is that your mindset? Nah, its what came from it.

Without jumping further into a semantic debate, I see one's mindset closely related to the attitude they reveal.

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

but then you just defined "mindset" as emotions. I don't think how you "feel" (unhappy) is your mindset. Rough sike definition: Your mindset is how you see/view/perceive the situation around you...its a filter through which you choose to respond to the given situation...can emotion become involved? Sure. But is that your mindset? Nah, its what came from it.

Without jumping further into a semantic debate, I see one's mindset closely related to the attitude they reveal.

Well, I guess we're just using different definitions for things then. Let me say this:

I don't care if Josh feels like he should (actually, should isn't even the right word, I bet he feels like he COULD) still be second banana, as long as he plays like a professional and has a good attitude.

For further example, I am 100% sure that Stack felt like he should start when he came to the Mavs, and probably still feels that way. But he has accepted his role, even though in his mind he is still a starting caliber player.

Same example can be used for Jet.

LonghornDub · 03-10-2008, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You raise some interesting points. But I think you also attempt some leaps that are too long.

First off, on the issue of "sacrificing" to make room for Jason Kidd...does anyone believe Dirk feels that way? I should hope not. Dirk looks like a guy who is invigorated by how much he can elevate his own game and how much his team can do the same.

Why wouldn't Howard feel that way? I mean, really...can you imagine Dirk talking about "sacrificing" to bring Kidd aboard? Can you even fathom that? It's pretty much impossible...and get this...it's not because Dirk is an unselfish player! Whose numbers have benefited the most since Kidd has come aboard? Well, Dirk, I would think. Dirk didn't sacrifice a damn thing when Kidd came on. Rather, Dirk became a much more lethal player.

As did Damp. As did Terry, probably.

So why does Howard feel like he is sacrificing? And for that matter--and this is important--why is he even talking about individual players sacrificing something?

P-Dub, you talk about Dirk being the most selfless player on the Mavs, but I suggest that even that is misstated. Who on the Mavs is a greater critic of himself than Nowitzki? Who takes losses the hardest? I would suggest that Dirk is a VERY selfish player, but directed in a good way. Which is to say, he takes responsibility for his play, and he feels pained when the team doesn't win.

Howard needs to be a selfish player, to the extent that it drives him to be as good as he can possibly be. But he also needs to understand that adding talent to the team does NOT undermine him...rather, it fortifies him.

He does not seem to me to have made that logical leap. And it is distressing. I disagree with you that you he is a smart player on the court and off. Too many times he has looked like an unintelligent player on the court. Off the court, I think he had some trouble with his test scores getting into college. I do not think he is a smart guy. And I feel pretty confident that he does not show much intelligence on the court, for what that is worth.

I don't think he's a smart guy on the court at all, re-read my comment. I do believe he's smarter than a heck of a lot of athletes off the court. But even that isn't all that relevant--the only reason that matters is because I am quite sure he knows the meaning of the word sacrifice, and he in fact used it perfectly.

I can't get on board with your comparisons to Dirk, because Dirk is the anomaly. He really is. He's "selfish" as you describe to the extent that he is personally motivated, but that's not really the context I'm using "selfish" in. Dirk is completely atypical of pro athletes because he is so amazingly humble and deferential to others in terms of his words. Holding Howard (or anyone) to the standard that Dirk sets is a bit unreasonable.

Guys like Terry and Stackhouse don't have any reason to feel like they "lose" anything in this trade, so I can't compare to them either. They weren't the 2nd best player on the team anyway (it was Josh). Kidd is the one on the team pecking order who has "replaced" Josh, if you were ranking them by sheer basketball ability. Terry and Stack are also both older, more established, and, frankly, much more concerned with winning a title than with any individual concerns. Josh is younger and still clearly focused somewhat on himself as a player, and I really can't fault him for that.

I completely dig what you're saying about how Howard needs to see this as something that can actually improve him, but you have to think about who you're talking about here. This is a guy who had an awfully rough upbringing. This is a guy who felt snubbed early on in college, felt snubbed on draft day, and basically makes his living off trying to prove himself to people feels "wronged" him.

Given all that, I completely understand why a guy like Howard would feel that he's giving something up by no longer being second fiddle. He is very concerned with letting people know that he is worth something, because for a lot of his life he's felt like people haven't given him his due. Now that he's no longer the 2nd guy, now that everyone's talking about Kidd and Dirk and leaving Josh out of the conversations, he has much less chance to showcase his stuff.

Now, that's certainly selfish, but I really couldn't care less, because it's also what has motivated him to become a fairly good NBA player. Like many people, Josh's greatest strength is his greatest weakness.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Let me say this:

I don't care if Josh feels like he should (actually, should isn't even the right word, I bet he feels like he COULD) still be second banana, as long as he plays like a professional and has a good attitude.

I couldn't agree more....I don't care how he feels....I care how he plays! And the simple point is that Jason Kidd makes you a better player not worse. Josh needs to see that. He is not the #3 option now...he is still VERY much the #2 option. Jason Kidd is.....what, the fifth or sixth option to score....if ANYTHING, Josh could see more shots due to the fact that Devin took more than Kidd ever will!

If/When Josh really gets on this train he will see what we have always seen when Kidd is on the floor....he will get Josh the ball in the perfect situations to score. And I'm sure he will still see plenty of iso to jack up 8-12 fall away jumpers a game if that is what is really at the back of his mind (which is what I assume).

chumdawg · 03-10-2008, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

It's both. The two are interrelated. You take away his shots and his 20+ point games, you take away a lot of his post-game interviews, his praises, and his accolades. You also take away any chance of him being an all-star again.

It's all related.

And this makes us better...how? We are supposed to "sacrifice" our better good as a team so that Josh Howard can get his 20+ points and be an All-Star...and get his post-game interviews and his praises?

The kid needs to, and damn quick, realize his role and start filling it. Gosh, maybe I *am* too hard on Avery Johnson. I'm sure it's tough to deal with primadonnas who think that even Jason Kidd isn't reason enough for them to adapt their game.

sike · 03-10-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I completely dig what you're saying about how Howard needs to see this as something that can actually improve him, but you have to think about who you're talking about here. This is a guy who had an awfully rough upbringing. This is a guy who felt snubbed early on in college, felt snubbed on draft day, and basically makes his living off trying to prove himself to people feels "wronged" him.

woah...when reading this did anyone else have psych 101 flashbacks...or was it just me?

I feel ya Dub....but I think you may be reaching a bit here.

kg_veteran · 03-10-2008, 11:43 PM

Howard will be fine. He looked good filling the lane next to Kidd tonight.

LonghornDub · 03-10-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

And this makes us better...how? We are supposed to "sacrifice" our better good as a team so that Josh Howard can get his 20+ points and be an All-Star...and get his post-game interviews and his praises?

The kid needs to, and damn quick, realize his role and start filling it. Gosh, maybe I *am* too hard on Avery Johnson. I'm sure it's tough to deal with primadonnas who think that even Jason Kidd isn't reason enough for them to adapt their game.

What? I have no idea where you're getting this. Sacrifice refers to Josh giving up those things so that the team can be better, not the other way around.

Where are you getting the idea that Josh thinks the other guys on the team need to sacrifice the "better good" so that he can get his 20 points?

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

And this makes us better...how? We are supposed to "sacrifice" our better good as a team so that Josh Howard can get his 20+ points and be an All-Star...and get his post-game interviews and his praises?

The kid needs to, and damn quick, realize his role and start filling it. Gosh, maybe I *am* too hard on Avery Johnson. I'm sure it's tough to deal with primadonnas who think that even Jason Kidd isn't reason enough for them to adapt their game.

But he IS adapting his game! He said so.

He simply sees it as a sacrifice to do so, you do not. Agree to diagree.

dirno2000 · 03-10-2008, 11:44 PM

This debate, while interesting, has morphed into an episode of the Michael Irvin show.

I can see the argument that Josh shouldn't see playing with Kidd as a sacrifice but I'm not sure why it matters. If he's willing to do what it takes to make this thing work I don't care what he calls it. And starting with the Utah game I've seen a noticeable change in his play.

LonghornDub · 03-10-2008, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

woah...when reading this did anyone else have psych 101 flashbacks...or was it just me?

I feel ya Dub....but I think you may be reaching a bit here.

I'm certainly no psychologist, but I really don't see how it's a reach. That's Josh's personality. That's how he works. He wants to prove himself. It's been said a million times.

Hell, I could easily be wrong, as I don't know Josh. But I'm fairly good at reading people and I feel like he plays up the whole "underdog" thing pretty often.

jthig32 · 03-10-2008, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

This debate, while interesting, has morphed into an episode of the Michael Irvin show.

I can see the argument that Josh shouldn't see playing with Kidd as a sacrifice but I'm not sure why it matters. If he's willing to do what it takes to make this thing work I don't care what he calls it. And starting with the Utah game I've seen a noticeable change in his play.

Ha! Nice reference.

I'd been meaning to ask you what you thought of it so far, after you brought it up a while back.

I don't hear it much, but what I do hear seems to center around really strange topics.