Artest or Howard? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Underdog · 07-20-2008, 08:33 PM

Remember when Josh Howard showed up against the Golden State Warriors in the playoffs? What about against New Orleans???

Didn't think so...

LSMF · 07-20-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xraided199

i literally said in my head, while voting and waiting the few seconds for the results to load, that there is no way in hell that people ON THIS BOARD who LOVE THE MAVS would really pick artest over howard. maybe a few, but thats it. THEN I SEE THAT NOT ONLY IS IT CLOSE, which makes me want to vomit all over my monitor repeatedly, but that artest IS LEADING!!! great to kno all of you, ready to go kill myself you fuckin pathetic fans. im sorry i said it, and yeah i may get a warning or infraction or whatever, but damn it are you serious?? artest over howard? artest for TEN DOLLARS is not fuckin worth his asshole antics and shit behavior. damn it, i needed to vent that. this is surprising, but beyond that, just disgusting...

Yea I can understand where your coming from but try not too curse too much so you dont get in trouble. I also am usually pissed off sometimes around here like when So many people wanted us to trade Devin for Kidd, or how people want us to trade Bass, or this Artest/ Howard stuff. Its very frustrating sometimes but everyone has a right to their own opinion whether we like it or not.

LSMF · 07-20-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Remember when Josh Howard showed up against the Golden State Warriors in the playoffs? What about against New Orleans???

Didn't think so...

I can't agree with you about that Warriors series Underdog, he played hard vs the warriors. He averaged 21 points on 51 percent shooting that was damn good, but I do agree about that Hornets series. I totally hated him during that series.

SMC0007 · 07-20-2008, 09:35 PM

I hated quite a few things in the NO series, JKidd, Dirk, Damps DEFENSE was bad. Paul was screamin "he can't FN hold me" 5 times a game and no one could do anything about it. ughh

ty · 07-21-2008, 01:23 AM

Wow. A dead tie at 47-47.

alby · 07-21-2008, 05:24 AM

I can't believe how close this vote is...

Had no idea so many people either a) overrated Josh like that or b) feel the loss of Bass is too great.

Of course, I'm part of the b-crowd because
Artest>>Howard
Thomas<<Bass

CanadianMavsFan · 07-21-2008, 06:58 AM

Apparently alot of people are voting and not backing up their choice. Artest is obviously a far superior player to Howard, and Thomas is a veteran who should be capable enough to backup Dirk given a change of scenery. Bass is great, but come next offseason I don't think we should be spending the MLE on a backup for Dirk, who will play limited minutes anyway.

mqywaaah · 07-21-2008, 07:29 AM

Keep Bass~~~
Noting compare to Bass~~~
Why Artest Thomas coming?~~~
No Carlisle, No!

Underdog · 07-21-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

I can't believe how close this vote is...

Had no idea so many people either a) overrated Josh like that or b) feel the loss of Bass is too great.

"We like our team..."

(especially the first-round exits!)

Dirkenstien · 07-21-2008, 08:57 AM

Wow, can't believe this thing is all tied up.

LonghornDub · 07-21-2008, 08:57 AM

I'd trade Howard or Bass for Artest, but not both.

Underdog · 07-21-2008, 09:25 AM

I wonder how this poll would look if it was just Howard and Artest straight-up?

Bass and Thomas really distort the picture...

dirno2000 · 07-21-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Remember when Josh Howard showed up against the Golden State Warriors in the playoffs? What about against New Orleans???

Didn't think so...

Josh was our best player against the Warriors. I believe that he was the only player on the team to raise his per in the post-season that year.

Usually Lurkin · 07-21-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Josh was our best player against the Warriors. I believe that he was the only player on the team to raise his per in the post-season that year.

for 1 half of every game.

dirno2000 · 07-21-2008, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

I can't believe how close this vote is...

Had no idea so many people either a) overrated Josh like that or b) feel the loss of Bass is too great.

Of course, I'm part of the b-crowd because
Artest>>Howard
Thomas<<Bass

I can't believe how many people overrate Artest. (Actually I can but I lke the symetry of that sentence)I can't believe how many people overrate Artest. (Actually I can but I liked the symmetry of that statement)

It would be hard to make the case that one is significantly better than the other using numbers so what it comes down to is your perception of Artest’s passion and how he alters the mindset of a team. I tend to think that angle gets played up too much.

BGMaverick9 · 07-21-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

I can't believe how close this vote is...

Had no idea so many people either a) overrated Josh like that or b) feel the loss of Bass is too great.

Of course, I'm part of the b-crowd because
Artest>>Howard
Thomas<<Bass

I said it would be pretty tight...people don't want to take on the baggage of Artest, talent or no talent, then add Bass on top of it and most people will be on the fence about it.

jthig32 · 07-21-2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I can't believe how many people overrate Artest. (Actually I can but I lke the symetry of that sentence)I can't believe how many people overrate Artest. (Actually I can but I liked the symmetry of that statement)

It would be hard to make the case that one is significantly better than the other using numbers so what it comes down to is your perception of Artest’s passion and how he alters the mindset of a team. I tend to think that angle gets played up too much.

Or your perception of Artest's abilities as a defender.

Artest is a significantly better defender than Josh. I don't think many people would disagree with that.

dirno2000 · 07-21-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Or your perception of Artest's abilities as a defender.

Artest is a significantly better defender than Josh. I don't think many people would disagree with that.

He may have been at one point but, like Coop, I think he's slipped in that area over the past couple of years. He's definitly the more physical player and could spend some time guarding 4's. On the other hand Josh is probably a little quicker and can give you a few minutes a game harrasing the other team's point guard.

Of course I'd give Artest the advantage due to is bod of work but he scares the hell out of me on the other end of the floor.

MavsX · 07-21-2008, 10:50 AM

h oward

purplefrog · 07-21-2008, 10:58 AM

My concerns about JHo are:

1) He was not very smart or mentally tough to begin with and now you add Avery's craziness as a mentor/coach. Can Josh recover?
2) If he has a bad season then his trade value goes down considerably. If he has a great year then his trade value goes up a little. How much are the Mavs willing to gamble? It's up to the Carlisle coaching staff to gauge not only the potential talent but also his psyche. Imo, this is not an easy thing to do, so why bother. If there's a trade out there that brings back an exceptional level of talent (and Artest fits that description) then now is the time to close the deal.

I'd offer JHo and Stack for Artest and Kenny Thomas (works on realgm). If they really want Bass then they have to throw in Garcia (also works on realgm) but I bet they don't care about Bass. On the other hand, maybe the Mavs care about Garcia.

ty · 07-21-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

He may have been at one point but, like Coop, I think he's slipped in that area over the past couple of years. He's definitly the more physical player and could spend some time guarding 4's. On the other hand Josh is probably a little quicker and can give you a few minutes a game harrasing the other team's point guard.

Of course I'd give Artest the advantage due to is bod of work but he scares the hell out of me on the other end of the floor.

When's the last time Howard harassed another team's point guard? It sure wasn't in last season's playoffs =x

alby · 07-21-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplefrog

My concerns about JHo are:

1) He was not very smart or mentally tough to begin with and now you add Avery's craziness as a mentor/coach. Can Josh recover?
2) If he has a bad season then his trade value goes down considerably. If he has a great year then his trade value goes up a little. How much are the Mavs willing to gamble? It's up to the Carlisle coaching staff to gauge not only the potential talent but also his psyche. Imo, this is not an easy thing to do, so why bother. If there's a trade out there that brings back an exceptional level of talent (and Artest fits that description) then now is the time to close the deal.

I'd offer JHo and Stack for Artest and Kenny Thomas (works on realgm). If they really want Bass then they have to throw in Garcia (also works on realgm) but I bet they don't care about Bass. On the other hand, maybe the Mavs care about Garcia.

This man speaks the truth.

LSMF · 07-21-2008, 11:26 AM

If you think you are disappointed with J-ho then just imagine how you'd feel if we had artest. Sure Artest has great defense and he can score but what about when he has one of his usual 4 of 20 nights with a technical ? Think of how many games we will lose because he cant control his emotions, think of how many games we will lose because of his ballhogging, think of how many games we will lose because of strange shot selection. And we would also have to give up our young beast Brandon Bass. Its just not worth it.

BGMaverick9 · 07-21-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

If you think you are disappointed with J-ho then just imagine how you'd feel if we had artest. Sure Artest has great defense and he can score but what about when he has one of his usual 4 of 20 nights with a technical ? Think of how many games we will lose because he cant control his emotions, think of how many games we will lose because of his ballhogging, think of how many games we will lose because of strange shot selection. And we would also have to give up our young beast Brandon Bass. Its just not worth it.

You could really flop this around for a Sacramento fan and flip Artest for Josh, except for that defense part.

Usually Lurkin · 07-21-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I said it would be pretty tight...people don't want to take on the baggage of Artest, talent or no talent, then add Bass on top of it and most people will be on the fence about it.

Josh does not have the quality baggage that Artest carries, but Josh's image and attitude are definitely in rehab mode right now. His attitude has to be keyed as a major factor in last years disappointments. And after all these years, and college success, he is still considered inconststent. Give me someonewith heart and desire. Bass has this, but we need it in the starting 5.

BGMaverick9 · 07-21-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Josh does not have the quality baggage that Artest carries, but Josh's image and attitude are definitely in rehab mode right now. His attitude has to be keyed as a major factor in last years disappointments. And after all these years, and college success, he is still considered inconststent. Give me someonewith heart and desire. Bass has this, but we need it in the starting 5.

I agree he doesn't have the baggage, but he's definitely put himself in harm's way of getting on the fast track to catching up.

dude1394 · 07-21-2008, 11:43 AM

I would trade bass or jet in a new york minute. Because they are flawed basketball players imo(too small for their position and jet can't play point). Bass and jet both play behind starters. I'd trade bass much quicker than Jet as jet can make a difference, bass won't once we go back to playing centers.

I'd trade him now.

ty · 07-21-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I would trade bass or jet in a new york minute. Because they are flawed basketball players imo(too small for their position and jet can't play point). Bass and jet both play behind starters. I'd trade bass much quicker than Jet as jet can make a difference, bass won't once we go back to playing centers.

I'd trade him now.

Agree. Bass was great last year, but he's always going to be undersized, and he's never going to be a Barkley.

alby · 07-21-2008, 11:47 AM

dude, I definitely agree with you on their fatal flaws as basketball players. However, I feel that Artest would be the perfect compliment for an undersized shooter like JET. Perfect. Furthermore, Artest would also be the perfect compliment for a highly skilled, perimeter oriented power forward as well. Perfect.

Do Bass/Howard for Artest/Garcia and let's move on with our lives.

if we are going to take back Thomas, then include Stack.

Howard - starter
Artest - starter

Bass - top 7 rotational player
Garcia - top 7 rotational player

Stack - bad contract
Thomas - bad contract

Sounds fair to me.

BGMaverick9 · 07-21-2008, 11:50 AM

yup, it totally does...but I think our FO is pretty stagnate right now and wants to make a huge deal that is a no-brainer. This one seems to have a lot of doubts in their mind.

jthig32 · 07-21-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

He may have been at one point but, like Coop, I think he's slipped in that area over the past couple of years. He's definitly the more physical player and could spend some time guarding 4's. On the other hand Josh is probably a little quicker and can give you a few minutes a game harrasing the other team's point guard.

Of course I'd give Artest the advantage due to is bod of work but he scares the hell out of me on the other end of the floor.

Ok, but even if he's slipped, the place he started from before slipping was someone that won DPOY and made all defensive teams. How far would he have to slip to not be a significantly better defender than Josh?

sike · 07-21-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

dude, I definitely agree with you on their fatal flaws as basketball players. However, I feel that Artest would be the perfect compliment for an undersized shooter like JET. Perfect. Furthermore, Artest would also be the perfect compliment for a highly skilled, perimeter oriented power forward as well. Perfect.

Do Bass/Howard for Artest/Garcia and let's move on with our lives.

if we are going to take back Thomas, then include Stack.

Howard - starter
Artest - starter

Bass - top 7 rotational player
Garcia - top 7 rotational player

Stack - bad contract
Thomas - bad contract

Sounds fair to me.

Seems like Sacto wants the Artest move to be a bigger splash...as in they get big cap relief and a big name...just wait a few more week when Ronny starts barking a bit louder....we'll see if they change their tune....I'm all for spending Cuban's money...so if thats all it is, get 'er done.

sike · 07-21-2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

yup, it totally does...but I think our FO is pretty stagnate right now and wants to make a huge deal that is a no-brainer. This one seems to have a lot of doubts in their mind.

Not in mine. Someone make me front office....I'll do this deal and then relinquish power...promise?

BGMaverick9 · 07-21-2008, 12:11 PM

I think it would be fun if key members of the board would be FO people for a brief period just to see what happens, lol.

sike · 07-21-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Ok, but even if he's slipped, the place he started from before slipping was someone that won DPOY and made all defensive teams. How far would he have to slip to not be a significantly better defender than Josh?

And we need to remember that if there has been a slip...how much of that could be due to having a lesser surrounding cast? Lets see...having JO to back you up in the post or Miller?...uhmmmm. A guy of Artest's defensive ability doesn't just slip...maybe he is on a terrible team and is less motivated or maybe his surrounding cast can't help him...but its not that he "can't" do it anymore. This is one of those times where I feel fully comfortable saying, "Trust JKidd."

sike · 07-21-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I think it would be fun if key members of the board would be FO people for a brief period just to see what happens, lol.

I'm not sure why....but Gnarls Barkley's "Crazy" just starting playing in my head....

alby · 07-21-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

And we need to remember that if there has been a slip...how much of that could be due to having a lesser surrounding cast? Lets see...having JO to back you up in the post or Miller?...uhmmmm. A guy of Artest's defensive ability doesn't just slip...maybe he is on a terrible team and is less motivated or maybe his surrounding cast can't help him...but its not that he "can't" do it anymore. This is one of those times where I feel fully comfortable saying, "Trust JKidd."

Ain't nothin' but the truth right there.

ty · 07-21-2008, 12:23 PM

55-51. Artesters are making a comeback.

BGMaverick9 · 07-21-2008, 12:28 PM

you mean reality is starting to come back around...

lol I kid, I kid.

dirno2000 · 07-21-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Ok, but even if he's slipped, the place he started from before slipping was someone that won DPOY and made all defensive teams. How far would he have to slip to not be a significantly better defender than Josh?

I'd say that he's still significantly better than the average defender but I think that Josh is an above average defender.