State of the Mavs

[dalmations202]

IMO, the best move the Mavs could make right now is get a Center and a legit swingman for anyone not named Dirk.

Personally I'd see if Detroit would give up RIP and Rasheed for Howard, Stack, George, Bass and Williams. That would put a veteran, let's make our run right now situation together.

Rasheed, Rip, Dirk, Kidd, Terry would be formittable to any group with any style. They could score inside or out, and with Rip and Rasheed, actually have a little attitude.

JHo for Kaman or Camby -- definitely.
GWallace for Stack and company -- definitely.

Just having a plan and realistic options IMO would be worth it.

[craggmac]

WHO WOULD YOU TRADE DIRK FOR?

I can't really think of many.

[Robillion]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

IMO, the best move the Mavs could make right now is get a Center and a legit swingman for anyone not named Dirk.

Personally I'd see if Detroit would give up RIP and Rasheed for Howard, Stack, George, Bass and Williams. That would put a veteran, let's make our run right now situation together.

Rasheed, Rip, Dirk, Kidd, Terry would be formittable to any group with any style. They could score inside or out, and with Rip and Rasheed, actually have a little attitude.

JHo for Kaman or Camby -- definitely.
GWallace for Stack and company -- definitely.

Just having a plan and realistic options IMO would be worth it.

I would absolutely love such a deal with the Pistons, but that would never happen. Id give up all that for Rasheed alone really. ... and I think GWallace would require more than Stack and filler. It would require JHo. Which I would say definitely to. But then again, it is Charlotte.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by craggmac

WHO WOULD YOU TRADE DIRK FOR?

If you are asking straight up........

Kobe, Lebron, CPaul, DHoward (if we could bring Avery back). I would add TDuncan, and KGarnett but age is getting up there. I'd think about Durant and Yao.

That's about it right now, IMO.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

if you do decide to trade dirk the trade that would make the most sense both ways imo would be (gulp, god i hate saying this) Dirk for amare and a pick. hes 26, he makes kidd extremely useful and he makes up for most of the offense dirk takes with him. Obviously if you do this you dont do the marion trade...

for the suns, the reasoning is obvious, trading for dirk alleviates all the amare/shaq same space problems and dirk has always been the perfect pf to play with shaq. stick nash along with them and theyd really be a threat to the lakers.

I don't hate it, If that's the route we were going to go. Dirk/Bass for Amare/Lopez/ Barnes and or a pick is what I would ask for.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

IMO, the best move the Mavs could make right now is get a Center and a legit swingman for anyone not named Dirk.

Personally I'd see if Detroit would give up RIP and Rasheed for Howard, Stack, George, Bass and Williams. That would put a veteran, let's make our run right now situation together.

Rasheed, Rip, Dirk, Kidd, Terry would be formittable to any group with any style. They could score inside or out, and with Rip and Rasheed, actually have a little attitude.

JHo for Kaman or Camby -- definitely.
GWallace for Stack and company -- definitely.

Just having a plan and realistic options IMO would be worth it.

if you can get that deal done with detroit call em up. i dont see how howard has any value to them though.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I don't hate it, If that's the route we were going to go. Dirk/Bass for Amare/Lopez/ Barnes and or a pick is what I would ask for.

it makes sense, and it would give dirk a shot at a title. but i hate amare and i love dirk. all the stuff i said about no off the court stuff is exactly the opposite with amare.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

IMO, the best move the Mavs could make right now is get a Center and a legit swingman for anyone not named Dirk.

Personally I'd see if Detroit would give up RIP and Rasheed for Howard, Stack, George, Bass and Williams. That would put a veteran, let's make our run right now situation together.

Rasheed, Rip, Dirk, Kidd, Terry would be formittable to any group with any style. They could score inside or out, and with Rip and Rasheed, actually have a little attitude.

JHo for Kaman or Camby -- definitely.
GWallace for Stack and company -- definitely.

Just having a plan and realistic options IMO would be worth it.

The problem is, the FO never does have a plan. They could have improved this roster nearly every offseason and chose to stick with their guns. That was the mistake that is punishing this team now IMO. Blind loyalty to overrated players has been a serious poison to this team.

[Dirkgreatness]

I know JET has been playing well, but what player can he get us? He does have pretty good trading value right now.

[ghazi]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

The problem is, the FO never does have a plan. They could have improved this roster nearly every offseason and chose to stick with their guns. That was the mistake that is punishing this team now IMO. Blind loyalty to overrated players has been a serious poison to this team.

In fairness to the FO the idea of making minor tweaks rather than major shakeups to the core does make sense after a 60 win year where we BASICALLY won a championship and a 67 win year ending in defeat against a gimmick team (which we addressed by acquiring Bass).

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by ghazi

In fairness to the FO the idea of making minor tweaks rather than major shakeups to the core does make sense after a 60 win year where we BASICALLY won a championship and a 67 win year ending in defeat against a gimmick team (which we addressed by acquiring Bass).

true

[LonghornDub]

I'm very baffled as to how anybody could call that Warriors team a "gimmick" team. That was a good basketball team. They were fast, athletic, and they shot very, very well. They outplayed the Mavs in the paint and on the perimeter, and they were very effective on both ends of the court.

Of course, the Mavs should have beaten them, but let's not cheapen their accomplishment by calling them a "gimmick" team.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm very baffled as to how anybody could call that Warriors team a "gimmick" team. That was a good basketball team. They were fast, athletic, and they shot very, very well. They outplayed the Mavs in the paint and on the perimeter, and they were very effective on both ends of the court.

Of course, the Mavs should have beaten them, but let's not cheapen their accomplishment by calling them a "gimmick" team.

they werent a gimmick team. They were a perimeter team that got hot. I remember looking it up and none of those guys shot over 36% from 3 but against us they couldnt miss.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm very baffled as to how anybody could call that Warriors team a "gimmick" team. That was a good basketball team. They were fast, athletic, and they shot very, very well. They outplayed the Mavs in the paint and on the perimeter, and they were very effective on both ends of the court.

Of course, the Mavs should have beaten them, but let's not cheapen their accomplishment by calling them a "gimmick" team.

Exactly. Calling them a "gimmick" is precisely why the Mavs are in the position they are. The "perfect storm" as the FO called. They always seem to have a single scapegoat to pretend that there aren't other issues with the team. It is almost as if they didn't take the GS loss seriously when you think about it.

[ghazi]

I swear it was a gimmick guys! The whole no rebounding, no defense, and poor shot selection and boatload of threes is all gimmicky basketball not conducive towards playoff success except in that series! Their quickness/athleticism proved to be a bother though.

Ugh, bad memories

[SMC0007]

WHY is it that all these random players have season high if not career high games against us?

It's really frustrating that our defense is so bad most of the time. Our interior D is bad and none of the guards can really stay in front of their man on the perimeter either. Sucks knowing that if were not dropping shots at a good % were going down.

[DirkFTW]

Grading each team at midseason
Steve Aschburner

...

Dallas Mavericks: Dirk Nowitzki and Jason Terry have been reliable, but little around them has been, particularly former All-Star Josh Howard (hopefully, that "former'' tag stings a little). The Mavs are 40-31 since the trade last February for Jason Kidd, which might make them gun-shy (and low on trade chips) as this season's deadline approaches. No one fears these guys anymore, and on any given night it's a coin flip as to how they will play. Grade: C+

Link

He's quite generous.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

WHY is it that all these random players have season high if not career high games against us?

It's really frustrating that our defense is so bad most of the time. Our interior D is bad and none of the guards can really stay in front of their man on the perimeter either. Sucks knowing that if were not dropping shots at a good % were going down.

I'm warming to the idea of Marion a little. He would make our defense and rebounding better and he's in a contract year so you know he'll want to play hard and put up numbers. He'd get us some easy baskets. It would leave us short a creator or post-player on offense though.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by mac222b

I'm warming to the idea of Marion a little. He would make our defense and rebounding better and he's in a contract year so you know he'll want to play hard and put up numbers. He'd get us some easy baskets. It would leave us short a creator or post-player on offense though.

Well if you counting JHo's fall away 20 foot shot a created shot, I think marion can do a lot better finishing what Kidd started. He should get a good share of O-Boards with doubles going to Dirk's side. Plus now we know JHo is not a fastbreak small forward....not like Marion is. We essentially gain in areas JHo never had. Plus you toss out the head case.

[payne]

Plus we do not need a big trade to change directions, we can Become better by one or two minor trades.

There are many players i would want to play the 2 position, whether a shooter, a player who plays D, a driver, etc

Well i have come to the realization that Desmond Mason would do a good JOB. I know, U know, and He Knows that he cannot shoot, and hence he drives, and create contact, hitting free throws is a different story, but atleast he gets players into foul trouble, he plays great D, better than anyone on the Mavs and he is on a young team, that doesnt necessarily want him, i think he could e a steal for us if we can give up Wright and some other worthless person.

I am not saying we should get Him, or if we do we will in the Champ, but i think he is a step up from wright atleast.

[Dan_Mavs]

the idea of Dirk playing against the mavs is just painful

i hope we can get something for Josh and Stack

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Well if you counting JHo's fall away 20 foot shot a created shot, I think marion can do a lot better finishing what Kidd started. He should get a good share of O-Boards with doubles going to Dirk's side. Plus now we know JHo is not a fastbreak small forward....not like Marion is. We essentially gain in areas JHo never had. Plus you toss out the head case.

LOL. Yeah I guess Josh isn't creating as many quality shots as he used to. I guess my initial reaction to Marion was "no". But he is in a bad situation for his skill set in Miami, he's unhappy and he's still putting up close to 13 and 10. Add him and we have the best rebounding team in the league and it's most versatile defender(?). He's almost doubling Josh in rebounds per game. Granted the Heat are starting something called "Joel Anthony" at Center. But this would NOT be a lateral move. We would be better. We might get out of the 1st round even. But it doesn't propel us to a championship. We add the right pieces in the the offseason and maybe we are. In the meantime i'll take defense and rebounding anyday.

[Tokey41]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

IMO, the best move the Mavs could make right now is get a Center and a legit swingman for anyone not named Dirk.

Personally I'd see if Detroit would give up RIP and Rasheed for Howard, Stack, George, Bass and Williams. That would put a veteran, let's make our run right now situation together.

Rasheed, Rip, Dirk, Kidd, Terry would be formittable to any group with any style. They could score inside or out, and with Rip and Rasheed, actually have a little attitude.

JHo for Kaman or Camby -- definitely.
GWallace for Stack and company -- definitely.

Just having a plan and realistic options IMO would be worth it.

Best trade I've heard all season. It's at least possible if Detroit is in a serious salary dumping mode (to supposedly make a run for Lebron). They'd want to keep Sheed's expiring i'm guessing but Rip and Wallace would be great fits for this team to become a contender.

[grndmstr_c]

I sort of wonder if there wouldn't be a way to get something done with Washington. That team's a pretty big pile of suck right now, and the Mavs could sure help them become free agency players if they wanted to cash in some of their scoring talent for cap relief. Not that I'd expect to be able to find a worthwhile deal with them that would improve the team defense...

That Detroit proposal has merit, too.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

Jhig,
You just cant get rid of Jet. If you believe we should get rid of Josh, then you look at his contract and you have to believe we can get that SG that you want. I dont see getting rid of Jet as the solution, because then who is the #2? We are not going to get a better player for Jet, so why even bother with it? I think that losing Jet would be the last straw for Dirk and it could push him to opt out and test the market and move on. We have a 36 year of Kidd with an expiring contract and a young All-star type SF in Howard whose contract is not that bad, and a Stack expiring contract. I see all those options before trading Jet. If we cant get something for those three options then we dont need to even be a professional team. I say trading Jet is the #4 option after taking the other 3 options I suggested. IMO

Trading Jet is probably #3 or 4 on the pecking order if he's on it. I mentioned it in another thread...with Jet and a trade, it's about Value. His value was pretty terrible after the Finals or the following year, he wasn't playing like he can and he had a lot of time still left on his deal. NOW he is playing the best basketball of his life probably and the contract is easier to swallow for a team, but the main thing is that he is playing amazing this year. I would need an amazing deal, but if you can get it...you're definitely selling high, I can't see how he'll keep it up (this rate) through this year and going forward.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

First off, very well written and thought-out post Mr. Thig.

Now, onto what the Mavs do. I wrote this a while back, and it still holds true, imo. The Mavs right now are in the tough position of being a "tweener" team. They are still good enough to make a legit run at a low playoff spot, but not near good enough to have any sort of impact championship run. This core of guys (meaning Dirk, Terry, J Ho and Damp) are never going to win anything with each other. Too much heart break. I don't care what anyone says, when you lose dramatically the way these guys have year after year, it takes a toll, especially mentally. Now, the Mavs tried to patch this up last year with the Kidd-Harris trade, but this in hind sight was a disastrous move because not only did we bring in another aging star for a player who has turned into an All-Star, but we also gave away first round picks. That trade alone has set this franchise back a couple years imo.

Lets see what we're dealing with here.. who has the value on this team?

I didn't want to quote the whole thing, but to bring it back up since I was gone. Well done on the assessment, I agree with most of it. I thought the Kings reference was dead on.

For Dirk, as others have mentioned, I don't think he'll hit a radical decline in the next few years...sure he'll naturally regress, but unless his ankles or something else completely break down on him, he can still shoot the lights out. You're not seeing a dramatic decrease in his shooting percentage, and he's still an elite player...I believe you can still build around him for 4-5 years.

Kidd is probably the toughest part of the equation. I think if he can have another player with Dirk who is a low post guy or a fast break kind of player, that will work for his game. I think he still has a couple of years left in the tank, less than Dirk...but it's not just a one year finale for him. I have a hard time thinking they'll let him go before the deadline. I think they'll want to bring him back for 1-2 more years.

Josh clearly needs to go, there is too much of a cloud around him. To me, on and off the court, he's doing more harm than good. His name is buzzing all around the place and people know that he needs a new location. People want to get him on the cheap, but it's up to Cuban and Co. to decide when enough is enough. Josh is going to produce numbers wherever he goes...there is no way around that, he can be a productive player. The problem is though he can't be counted on consistently, for a floundering team where he is "Batman" he'll do fine.

Jet comments are in the post above.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Trade Dirk? If you guys think the Mavs are mediocre now, you'll really hate them over the next decade as we search for our next superstar (remember the 90s?)

Hence the term "rebuild."

Nah, we're better off trying to rebuild around Dirk - even when his skills start diminishing (David Robinson, anyone?)

Look, I'd love to keep Dirk and turn the Mavs into contenders again, but I just don't see it happening. Frankly I think we're going to lose him anyway. It's clear he's unhappy, and unless the FO really pulls a rabbit out of its hat, I think he'll walk when his contract is up. Then we'll have lost him for nothing when maybe we could've gotten a terrific young player and a couple of draft picks for him or something along those lines.

As for the DRob reference, the Spurs didn't really rebuild around him. They kept him on the injured list for a year and tanked so they could land Duncan in the draft. I don't see the Mavs doing any such thing.

[ghazi]

It's very hard to find examples of a team going from elite to mediocre to elite again in a quick time frame. The only recent example I can think of is the Lakers, and that was due to a lopsided Gasol trade and the drafting of Bynum. It took them 4 years to recover from losing Shaq and Dirk will be 34 in 4 years. At that stage in his career Dirk probably will not be good enough to be the best player on a contending team.

[41N]

Hi,
I think that the mavs only need two or three players with a mentality to improve the dallas defense. I heard rip is angry on the detroit bench, maybe he wants to start a new run with a new team on the title. and if detroit only want a scorer from the bench, they might want their former best scorer stackhouse (+ money, draft picks or williams?). however rip knows for sure how to play d, maybe he would be our garnett and transfer the detroit d before the iverson trade to dallas. yeah, i know that they were also other issues for the legendary detroit d (b. wallace, prince, billups, even r. wallace) but i think that players like nowitzki, terry, dampier and kidd know already how to play good d, they only need a leader in the defense who release their defense power...

on the other hand we have the former allstar howard who really MUST go. I would be happier with a big guy because dampier (although he plays a good season) isn't constant enough for a contender and his 23 mpg aren't reliable but nelson trust him. so I think a player like gerald wallace (a good defender, rebounder, scorer, who would fit with his athletics in a kidd system) would improve dallas dramatically...

a starting 5 with kidd, rip, wallace, dirk and dampier would in my opinion contend. they could also playsmall ball with kidd, terry, rip, wallace and dirk with shooters spread all over the floor...

our main problem is that we haven't a player who can't defend fast allstar guards like paul, harris, williams. (kidd is to slow) and incredible sg's/sf's athlets like lebron, kobe, t-mac (howard is too skinny). i think that problem would be solved with rip (against guards) and wallace (against athlets)...
I'm sorry for my bad english, I'm from germany...
thx, 41N

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

We always say the FO doesn't do this and that Donnie doesn't do this and that but it seems like Cuban decides everything lately. When he's interviewed he says comments like "I'm not trading Dirk" "I'm not trading Josh" Shouldn't he say we? It's possible Donnie has very little say and Mark Cuban is the one calling all the shots.

[TNT]

it's offtopic but where is todays GDT?

[seelenjaeger]

How about trading Kidd to a team in desperate need of Cap Space who would be willing to cut him and we resign him later? That´d be my favourite option next to moving Josh. The Gamble would be that we risk missing the Playoffs doing such a move, but honestly, we´re doing it by standing pat anyways.

[Robillion]

Originally Posted by seelenjaeger

How about trading Kidd to a team in desperate need of Cap Space who would be willing to cut him and we resign him later? That´d be my favorite option next to moving Josh. The Gamble would be that we risk missing the Playoffs doing such a move, but honestly, we´re doing it by standing pat anyways.

I am actually a big fan of Kidd, but I would rather us move Kidd, Howard, + Stack & Bass before the trade deadline. That gives us more time to gel together as a team with the new players, and work out our chemistry this season since it is already a wash (not winning championship or at least going to the conference finals is a wash). Also, it would benefit the teams that get our cap relief pieces (Kidd/Stack) as they would have more flexibility. They could play them for the rest of the season and see how that works, they could let them go at the end of this season and be a player in 09, they could sign them to big one year deals and let them come off in 2010. They could let them go this year and pick up new talent in 09 and 2010.

So.. I talked about in another thread how we shouldn't criticize the FO as much as we do since we do not know what they are working on constantly really, but I will say that if our FO does not have this at least in mind then they are truly retarded.

[purplefrog]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

IMO, the best move the Mavs could make right now is get a Center and a legit swingman for anyone not named Dirk.

Personally I'd see if Detroit would give up RIP and Rasheed for Howard, Stack, George, Bass and Williams. That would put a veteran, let's make our run right now situation together.

Rasheed, Rip, Dirk, Kidd, Terry would be formittable to any group with any style. They could score inside or out, and with Rip and Rasheed, actually have a little attitude.

JHo for Kaman or Camby -- definitely.
GWallace for Stack and company -- definitely.

Just having a plan and realistic options IMO would be worth it.

If the Pistons suggested Josh + Damp + Bass for RIP and Rasheed do you pull the trigger? Losing Rasheed puts them awfully thin at the 5.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by purplefrog

If the Pistons suggested Josh + Damp + Bass for RIP and Rasheed do you pull the trigger? Losing Rasheed puts them awfully thin at the 5.

I do that in a heartbeat. Seems like a pretty fair trade at least.

[seelenjaeger]

Honestly ... let´s assume we find a team willing to blow their team up and restart ...

Kidd, Bass, Stackhouse to GSW in exchange for Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette and Anthony Randolph.

And let´s say we ship Josh, Jackson and Wright to Miami for Marion (and they ship Cook and a 1st rounder to GSW as a sweetener).

That´d be a complete roster overhaul for us, GS gets rid of most long term obligations losing three unhappy guys in Magette, Monta and Randolph getting cap, a first rounder and a young shooting guard in return, while Miami maxes out on Marion trade value. GSW might aswell cut Kidd, we resign him, et voila...

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by purplefrog

If the Pistons suggested Josh + Damp + Bass for RIP and Rasheed do you pull the trigger? Losing Rasheed puts them awfully thin at the 5.

No really Damp-McDyess for 24 each a night. Plus toss in Maxiell, Amir and Brown to the mix.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by seelenjaeger

Honestly ... let´s assume we find a team willing to blow their team up and restart ...

Kidd, Bass, Stackhouse to GSW in exchange for Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette and Anthony Randolph.

And let´s say we ship Josh, Jackson and Wright to Miami for Marion (and they ship Cook and a 1st rounder to GSW as a sweetener).

That´d be a complete roster overhaul for us, GS gets rid of most long term obligations losing three unhappy guys in Magette, Monta and Randolph getting cap, a first rounder and a young shooting guard in return, while Miami maxes out on Marion trade value. GSW might aswell cut Kidd, we resign him, et voila...

Kidd actually grew up in GSW area, he would sell tickets and the Warriors are in it for the $$$ first and foremost, they won't cut Kidd.

[seelenjaeger]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Kidd actually grew up in GSW area, he would sell tickets and the Warriors are in it for the $$$ first and foremost, they won't cut Kidd.

Kidd would sell more tix in Mid-Feb till March than they would save if he puts 2 mill on the table to play on a contender?

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by seelenjaeger

Kidd would sell more tix in Mid-Feb till March than they would save if he puts 2 mill on the table to play on a contender?

Haha, I know the GSW owner Cohan is a horrid PR person, I'm sure if Kidd offered him that, it'd be a done deal.