Post Game Thread DAL @ PHO: 4th Quarter was a Joke - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mavsmanic · 01-29-2010, 04:08 AM

Closing games seems to be one of our biggest problems. When you have a line up of Kidd, Terry, Marion, Dirk, and Dampier to close the game, the other team only needs to guard Dirk and Terry. Infact when Josh has his offensive game going, it is better to play him at the end of games rather than playing Marion. I hate the fact that Marion misses those cheap shots on a regular basis.

cinemablend · 01-29-2010, 04:51 AM

I have never, ever been this disgusted with Josh Howard.

I'm done with him.

I know he didn't lose the game since he wasn't in there during the fourth... but his play throughout the rest of the game was just despicable.

There were two breakaways where they had 2 on 1s and he could have driven straight to the basket, but he stopped and pulled up at 20 feet and jacked up a shot which he missed because apparently... he just can't be bothered to take any contact at all anymore under any circumstances, nor does he seem to have any desire to pass the ball to someone who will.

Meanwhile Dirk night and night out with this huge pad on his elbow, grimacing in pain, banging his way into the paint, whirling around, being clobbered by 5 guys.

And there's Josh Howard who won't drive the the basket if there's even one opposing player anywhere in his vicinity and who doesn't seem to care whether the ball goes in or not.

Carlisle needs to bench this scumbag. He's a detriment to the team and he makes Carlisle look like an idiot every time he gets even a minute. Quentin Ross can help this team more than Josh Howard.

particleman · 01-29-2010, 05:50 AM

Well... something's definitely brewing... Can't say for certain whether it'll end well or not... Hopefully the Mavs can pull the trigger on a trade sooner rather than later...

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba...tim&id=4865265

41N · 01-29-2010, 05:56 AM

guys, it's not like in cleveland, miami or la where their stars get the ball at halfcourt and everybody go out of their way...
dirk is a pf, he needs screens for his game, especially in crunch time and especially against good defenders like hill. the whole game dirk had to battle with hill for every single position, you can't make this plays in the last minutes because he'll easily get an offensive foul for forcing these things. the other way dirk got the ball now and then was the lob pass which is also very risky and there's no way the mavs make such a play in the final minutes...
so i really can't understand why it should be dirk's fault. i'm pretty sure, if carlisle would've called a play for dirk, he would get the ball but you must also remember that dirk played center at the end. who should've set the screens for him? barea?

look at the magic, their superstar can't get a ball in the fourth quarter because the other players don't feed him. it's the first time this season that dirk didn't get the ball in crunch time so it's not alarming but it shouldn't happen again...
cya 41N

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-29-2010, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by particleman

Well... something's definitely brewing... Can't say for certain whether it'll end well or not... Hopefully the Mavs can pull the trigger on a trade sooner rather than later...

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba...tim&id=4865265

It's sad that Howard has regressed to just an expiring contract. The Mavs should have traded him when he had more talent value.

And Barea being in there at the end of games makes small children cry...

kg_veteran · 01-29-2010, 07:42 AM

Ugh.

Dirkenstien · 01-29-2010, 09:21 AM

Yep, this pretty much solidifies my thinking that we need Kevin Martin on this team. I originally believed Iggy would be my preference but it's clear this team is in desperate need of a true #2 scorer.

jthig32 · 01-29-2010, 09:24 AM

Hill was basically allowed to rape Dirk every time down the floor, and Dirk didn't respond to it real well. The team as a whole (Dirk included) is to blame for not being able to get him the ball in a position to score, but I'm not really sure what you're supposed to do when Hill is allowed to do what he did.

Kidd, Jet and Damp played pretty well.Dirk was out of his element, Shawn missed some bunnies, and Josh probably doesn't deserve to play next game. I've given up all hope with Josh. I now become agitated every time he's on the floor. So sad.

Very frustrating game. When you get out hustled, give up more free throws, and get out shot (especially on the three point line), you're not going to win very many games. Disappointing effort defensively.

I hate losing to the Suns. Hate it. Hate it.

jthig32 · 01-29-2010, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Yep, this pretty much solidifies my thinking that we need Kevin Martin on this team. I originally believed Iggy would be my preference but it's clear this team is in desperate need of a true #2 scorer.

Bingo.

Jet played well tonight, but they have to work so freaking hard to get him open looks when teams are concentrating on him. It's a bit like Reggie Miller towards the end of his career.

Kevin Martin (or someone else that can create offense from the perimeter) would have absolutely punished the Suns for focusing on Dirk the way they did.

Usually Lurkin · 01-29-2010, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41N

guys, it's not like in cleveland, miami or la where their stars get the ball at halfcourt and everybody go out of their way...
dirk is a pf, he needs screens for his game, especially in crunch time and especially against good defenders like hill. the whole game dirk had to battle with hill for every single position, you can't make this plays in the last minutes because he'll easily get an offensive foul for forcing these things. the other way dirk got the ball now and then was the lob pass which is also very risky and there's no way the mavs make such a play in the final minutes...
so i really can't understand why it should be dirk's fault. i'm pretty sure, if carlisle would've called a play for dirk, he would get the ball but you must also remember that dirk played center at the end. who should've set the screens for him? barea?

look at the magic, their superstar can't get a ball in the fourth quarter because the other players don't feed him. it's the first time this season that dirk didn't get the ball in crunch time so it's not alarming but it shouldn't happen again...
cya 41N

are you really saying that Hill is a better defensive player than Dirk is an offensive player?

dude1394 · 01-29-2010, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

I still think Dirk is the only superstar in basketball that can't get a touch with 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

People can go to every excuse in the book for him, his team mates, and coach, but this is a legitimate hall of famer that could not get a touch. Forget about putting up a shot, he couldn't even get his hands on the basketball. Just think about that for a second. At some point you find a way to get your hands on that basketball. If we're going to rely on JJB and Marion in the crunch, then.. good luck.

Yea he should run around and around like someone with their hands on fire. If a guys fronting you they have someone behind you exactly what should this guy do? It's the same with any post player unless you want to give it to dirk at the 3pt line with GHill on him and somehow he's also supposed to just dribble around him.

RC has to be smart enough to figure out a way to get him the ball, they were trying last night but it was pretty ineffective. The suns smothered dirk and jet and dared anyone else to do anything and they couldn't, end of story.

dude1394 · 01-29-2010, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

are you really saying that Hill is a better defensive player than Dirk is an offensive player?

Of course not UL. But he is saying that like any center or post guy you can't just give him the ball at the 10 second line. And dirk is not going to be able to just bull his way into the post ala shaq/duncan and camp there. Even then grant was fronting him and someone behind him I thought.

dude1394 · 01-29-2010, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by particleman

Well... something's definitely brewing... Can't say for certain whether it'll end well or not... Hopefully the Mavs can pull the trigger on a trade sooner rather than later...

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba...tim&id=4865265

Ug...I just wasted 10 seconds of my life listening to Jamal Mashburn.

Underdog · 01-29-2010, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Ugh.

That about sums it up...

92bDad · 01-29-2010, 11:09 AM

The two worst players of that game last night... JJ Berea and Josh Howard.

Mavs get a lead, put in JJ and Josh, the lead disappears.

In the past, I have strongly supported these guys, but in JJ's case, it appears that the rest of the league has more than caught up to him...sure he can score some points and look productive, but he's fools gold...he's worse on defense than Nash, and that's saying something. JJ is a major liability on this team...again, exciting and fun to watch, but at the end of the day, he is not helping this team win.

As for Josh...He's a bit waste of time...he looks lazy on the court...which he always did, but his look, previously was a trap to opposing teams, as he would light things up and help this team win. But now, he's inconsistant at best...when the team is on a scoring run...the best that opponents can hope for is that Josh Howard will enter the game...he's certain to help the Mavs stop scoring for a few possessions and thus give your team a chance to make a counter run.

This is what Josh did yesterday, and it allowed the Suns to not only get back in the game, but ultimately win the game.

The Mavs rely on JJ and Josh, saddly, they are no longer performing at a level that merits being on the court...hopefully the Mavs can do something before the trade dead-line...or they will live and die by these two role players who have lost their mojo.

u2sarajevo · 01-29-2010, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

Amare looks funny in all pictures.

FIFY

ShaggyDirk · 01-29-2010, 11:30 AM

The Mavs are doomed!

SMC0007 · 01-29-2010, 11:31 AM

Charles Barlkey was right on last night about Dirk (and DHoward). I hate to admit it.

Our star just can not be pushed around and dominated by Grant Hill. Regardless of what he was getting away with. You can't be the victim continuously like that.

That would be the cherry on top to make a move if I was still on the fence about it. We have seen this all to often, no one can help Dirk on nights like this. Jet said something like "it's amazing how we are half way thru the season and still can't find our way in the 4th qrtr" or something very close to that. Well, stop panicing when Dirk doesn't come thru every single posession and carry the load a bit.

bobbyfg7 · 01-29-2010, 12:07 PM

I think some one just kicked my puppy again...

Usually Lurkin · 01-29-2010, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Our star just can not be pushed around and dominated by Grant Hill. Regardless of what he was getting away with. You can't be the victim continuously like that. .

no kidding. Whatever happened to enforcing their will on a game? That was all the talk a season or 2 ago.

I hate all this talk about "ooh, Dirk was manhandled by Hill, it's not his fault." I'm sorry, but if you are Dirk Nowitzki and you are getting manhandled by Grant Hill, it's your fault. If you're getting fouled without calls, you gotta push back, get a tech, do whatever you can to get the refs to call things tighter. If your coach is going away from you while the game goes down the tubes, you gotta remind him that you are Dirk Freakin Nowitzki, and that you win games. If your teammates are ignoring you on the court, you've got to put them in their place. Be the freakin leader. Put the team on your shoulders and win the game.

If none of that happens, or if you are trying to do all that and failing, then you are not Dirk Nowitzki.

And yes, yes, if your team has to rely on one guy to win all your games, and everyone else is just Failure with a capital FU, then you will lose a lot of your games. But if that's so obviously the situation on any given night and you let the whole game collapse without going to that guy at all, then you suck. In that case, you are an idiot and you suck. If that happens, you are an idiot and you suck, and you need to make a trade. And your fans really need to bitch about it.

Kidd Karma · 01-29-2010, 12:51 PM

Barea should not be in there alongside Kidd. Kidd becomes useless on the offensive end when Barea is in there. Barea should get the minutes Kidd is off the court..nothing more. Boobs should have saw that crunch time minutes. Kidd would have been much better on Nash at the end, the strength and length would have bothered Nash. I think this team is caught between going with the NBA style of isolation, but does not really have the horse to do it. We have a player of a different caliber, something this league has not seen and we are not taking advantage of it. There must be a much better effort in working your offense 5 on 5 then 1 on 3. Don't isolate Dirk, don't put him in a position to allow 2-3 defenders to defend him. Put him on the weakside, then allow 2 others to work the 2 man game, get loose, draw a defender and then kick to Dirk and allow him to decide what to do with the rock. Give Kidd a pick, let him get loose in the paint, then he has 3 modes of scoring, Dirk or Jet on either wing and the pick setter attacking the cup. Howard makes me puke. I think the rumors are getting to him.

dirno2000 · 01-29-2010, 12:56 PM

Seems like Kidd should be taking more heat for the way they took Dirk out of the game in the 4th. If your big play threat doesn't get the ball enough don't you place at least some of the blame on the quarterback and the OC? As far as I know Kidd is both. Although, RC could be calling the plays in the 4th, I’m not sure about that.

I'm not buying the argument that the Suns forced our hand by the way they played him. They’re one of the worst 3 or 4 defensive teams in the league. That’s why they’re fighting for their playoff lives because they can still score. If it's that easy to take Dirk out of the game then we're f'd. Of course we all know that's not the case but last night was embarrassing.

It wasn't that he only took one shot in the 4th it was that he only got one or two touches. There's really no excuse for that. Just pick and roll them to death. They want to double Dirk off of that then the PG is wide open with the ball. Or why not spin backdoor if Hill is going to ride Dirk 16 feet from the basket? There are counters for everything they can throw at Dirk...otherwise he wouldn't have 20,000 points.

Rick41 · 01-29-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Ug...I just wasted 10 seconds of my life listening to Jamal Mashburn.

Jamal Wash(edup)burn.

Underdog · 01-29-2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Howard makes me puke. I think the rumors are getting to him.

I shudder to think what will happen to this team if we CAN'T trade Howard by the deadline.

(Sacto turning down Martin for Howard/Gooden/JJB is a kick in the nuts.)

purplefrog · 01-29-2010, 01:25 PM

You're not going to win too many road games giving up 57 points in the second half and 112 overall.

Tim Thomas should start getting some of JHo's minutes.

SMC0007 · 01-29-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I shudder to think what will happen to this team if we CAN'T trade Howard by the deadline.

(Sacto turning down Martin for Howard/Gooden/JJB is a kick in the nuts.)

Uh yah. That seemed like too much to begin with. If the rumors are true it looks like Cuban is gonna take another shot on the chin moving Jho.

purplefrog · 01-29-2010, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I shudder to think what will happen to this team if we CAN'T trade Howard by the deadline.

(Sacto turning down Martin for Howard/Gooden/JJB is a kick in the nuts.)

I wonder if JHo + Carroll + JJB for KMart + Beno + May would get them thinking a bit....Right now I'd do that in a nanosecond.

Although I've liked JJB for the past two years I think "Beno" might be a good antidote for the heartburn and indigestion he's given me lately.

ChaosCloud · 01-29-2010, 01:39 PM

Is Rick Carlise an idiot? i thought he was smart and one of the best coaches in the NBA?

Why the hell do you have Josh Howard/JJB in late game situations? Better yet why aren't those guys in Sacramento already?

iella · 01-29-2010, 01:40 PM

I really wish my mood wasn't so tied to the success or failure of the Mavs. It makes me seem like I'm constantly PMSing, but I swear it goes away during the offseason.

Sorry, TMI?

mavsfan1000 · 01-29-2010, 02:00 PM

The isolation plays need to stop. Our offense just sucks when we get that predictable. Movement without the ball is the most important thing for this team. Apparently, they aren't doing it enough.

Dnowit41 · 01-29-2010, 02:58 PM

Dirk was bascially nonexistent offensively in the latter half of the 4th. Could the elbow be bothering him?

41N · 01-29-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

are you really saying that Hill is a better defensive player than Dirk is an offensive player?

of course not but hill played very intelligent and unorthodox defense on dirk. he knew if dirk would get the ball, theres no way he could stop him. so he denied the easy entry pass to dirk, knowing that another sun would help from the weak side. thats the first time this season that dirk had to face such a defense, big props to gentry. i just can't understand why they didn't set ONE screen for dirk in the last 10 minutes. damp showed that he can protect dirk from any player in the league, hill shouldn't be a problem in these situations...

don't get me wrong, dirk should've searched a way to get the ball in his hands but in a fourth quarter at the center posiition without ONE called play for him, you should also blame his teammates and especially carlisle...
cya 41N

ShaggyDirk · 01-29-2010, 03:43 PM

It's just a sad state of affairs. We can't replay the game. It is what it is.. a clear picture of our weakness that has plagued us throughout the last decade. Their are always things we should have done during the game, but this game has occurred too many times for us to think something will change.

Underdog · 01-29-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaggyDirk

It's just a sad state of affairs. We can't replay the game. It is what it is.. a clear picture of our weakness that has plagued us throughout the last decade. Their are always things we should have done during the game, but this game has occurred too many times for us to think something will change.

No kidding - we've lost, what, 300 or so games in the past decade?

When's the last time you lost 300 of ANYTHING???

The Mavs suck... Cuban can't ball... Dirk dates ugly women... Your cat's spiked penis really hurts me when we make love...

I'M SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO GLOOMY!!!!!!!! (and my bum hurts...)

ShaggyDirk · 01-29-2010, 03:58 PM

No really UD, all gloom aside... The next time we face the Suns we will probably blow them out and this game will be forgotten. My point was...get over it. Things aren't going to change.

Spurred1 · 01-29-2010, 04:11 PM

Would it help if I reminded everyone that the Spurs got embarrassed in Phoenix as well?

SMC0007 · 01-29-2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dnowit41

Dirk was bascially nonexistent offensively in the latter half of the 4th. Could the elbow be bothering him?

Vom

Kidd Karma · 01-29-2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurred1

Would it help if I reminded everyone that the Spurs got embarrassed in Phoenix as well?

-Barbosa, PHX is like their leader, they're a scrappy bunch with some talent. Keep them close, they will beat you. Parker's out for a while too, plus isn't the rodeo in town and the Spurs hit the road for a while.

dirno2000 · 01-29-2010, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurred1

Would it help if I reminded everyone that the Spurs got embarrassed in Phoenix as well?

no

jthig32 · 01-29-2010, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Seems like Kidd should be taking more heat for the way they took Dirk out of the game in the 4th. If your big play threat doesn't get the ball enough don't you place at least some of the blame on the quarterback and the OC? As far as I know Kidd is both. Although, RC could be calling the plays in the 4th, I’m not sure about that.

I'm not buying the argument that the Suns forced our hand by the way they played him. They’re one of the worst 3 or 4 defensive teams in the league. That’s why they’re fighting for their playoff lives because they can still score. If it's that easy to take Dirk out of the game then we're f'd. Of course we all know that's not the case but last night was embarrassing.

It wasn't that he only took one shot in the 4th it was that he only got one or two touches. There's really no excuse for that. Just pick and roll them to death. They want to double Dirk off of that then the PG is wide open with the ball. Or why not spin backdoor if Hill is going to ride Dirk 16 feet from the basket? There are counters for everything they can throw at Dirk...otherwise he wouldn't have 20,000 points.

I honestly felt like Dirk quit trying at some point. Now whether that's over frustration over how he was being played or frustration over not getting the ball I don't know.

Am I only the only one that felt like Hill was being allowed to play defense extremely aggressively? I felt like that was the difference last night. Kind of like what happens when you play Utah at their place.