Plug pulled on Roddy

[JeffViggiano]

i think it's better put Peja as starter with kidd-stevensson-dirk-chandler and terry/marion from the bench.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by dude1394

So last year the lack of roddy doomed us in the spurs series..

Now this year taking 20 games + to try and push roddy into the starting lineup has possibly cost us those 20 games of cohesion and possibly a few more wins that might have gotten us second place and the hornets.

That Carlisle sure is an idiot.

As far as i'm concerned it's a realistic possibility that Carlisle ruined the kid's confidence. It can be the injury, it can be the combination of the two, but i cant't say Carlisle did everything perfect. Also, Roddy's absence didn't doomed us in that series, it was Kidd's and Terry's play that doomed us, but Roddy could have give us a chance. Anyway, it's obviously a good decision right now, the kid needs a training camp, and some more maturing, still, it's funny how Carlisle said he's not giving up on the kid, and now this. Why say anything Rick. "It was a week ago" Get out of here...

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by JeffViggiano

i think it's better put Peja as starter with kidd-stevensson-dirk-chandler and terry/marion from the bench.

No way Peja can guard Wallace, or anybody else from their wing players if we switch.

[j0Shi]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

As far as i'm concerned it's a realistic possibility that Carlisle ruined the kid's confidence.

Let's say they wanted something out of Roddy that he couldn't provide. As far as I am concerned they could have been more conservative with him. Run more plays for him instead of asking him to create and such stuff. And I still think that the quantity of criticism in the first games was inappropriate. But patience is precious commodity with the kid coming back that late. They tried this path and it failed ... for whatever reason.

[jthig32]

So Rick was an idiot for not playing Roddy more last season, and now it's his fault that Roddy sucked and has lost all confidence.

NBA coaching man. Gotta love it.

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by jthig32

So Rick was an idiot for not playing Roddy more last season, and now it's his fault that Roddy sucked and has lost all confidence.

NBA coaching man. Gotta love it.

To be fair, Roddy did look a lot better last season.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Rick41

To be fair, Roddy did look a lot better last season.

Before Carlisle's "awful" coaching screwed him up, or before his foot injury/teams having tape on him/lack of BBIQ screwed him up?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Before Carlisle's "awful" coaching screwed him up, or before his foot injury/teams having tape on him/lack of BBIQ screwed him up?

What do you think the default answer is, pick that one.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Rick41

To be fair, Roddy did look a lot better last season.

Go look at Roddy's game log from last season. I'll even link it for you.

Now, look up and down that list, and see if you can identify a common trait between 90% of the teams that Roddy had success against.

Roddy did look a lot better last season, and there could be a lot of factors do that success. But I think it's pretty clear at this point that one of the main factors was Rick's ability to pick and choose good match ups for him. He established a pretty clear method for his playing time, and he didn't over expose him.

Roddy looked a lot better last seasons BECAUSE Rick limited his minutes and picked his spots. And he was crucified for it, because some people don't have any capacity for considering context. They see a player play well, and they automatically assume that more playing time will lead to more good things. And it's not always true, as we've seen first hand this season.

[Budapest Maverick]

Sorry, but no. A lot of those games Roddy shot 4-6, 3-5, 4-7 etc, Carlisle just didn't sub him back. Who's to say he couldn't have a good game, if he actually gets more playing time in those games? Remember, Roddy was used primarily as a "heater" and the mind boggling thing was that he made it look so easy (the scoring part) against anyone, and he did it with consistency. Remember he shot well over 50%, and Carlisle said some bs like he tried to keep in the lineup, but they had to change, and it was simply bs, because he was really playing well at the time. The game log shows exactly what happened, he produced offensively, when he got playing time. It was really that simple.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

The game log shows exactly what happened, he produced offensively, when he got playing time. It was really that simple.

Sorry, but no.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Go look at Roddy's game log from last season. I'll even link it for you.

Now, look up and down that list, and see if you can identify a common trait between 90% of the teams that Roddy had success against.

Roddy did look a lot better last season, and there could be a lot of factors do that success. But I think it's pretty clear at this point that one of the main factors was Rick's ability to pick and choose good match ups for him. He established a pretty clear method for his playing time, and he didn't over expose him.

Roddy looked a lot better last seasons BECAUSE Rick limited his minutes and picked his spots. And he was crucified for it, because some people don't have any capacity for considering context. They see a player play well, and they automatically assume that more playing time will lead to more good things. And it's not always true, as we've seen first hand this season.

No, you must have it all wrong - word on the street is that Carlisle is a crappy coach, so if any of what you say is true, then that means Carlisle is a pretty good coach... But the majority is always right and they're obviously smarter than you because there's more of them, so you should re-interpret your data using "Free Roddy B"-colored glasses and get back to us...

[Funkman]

Roddy's play is proportional to the amount of Free Roddy B t-shirts sold. Last year they were item on the rise, selling well. This year, eh, not so much. Please don't try to pin this on RC when it's all about the shirts.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

He is shooting 20% for March / April. Lets say 34%. I highly doubt he will average 40% in the playoffs.

In general the probable starting lineup in the playoffs with Stevenson at the 2 hasn't played together in 2011 until the last game of the season. We know that Stevenson worked as starter with Butler. We know that Stevenson hasn't worked as starter without Butler.

We don't know how Stevenson will work as starter in the current lineup. The first half against the Hornets was terrible, but I wouldn't draw any conclusion from one game anyway.

Actually, if I remember correctly, Stevenson's best stretch of the season came in the wake of the Dirk/Caron injuries, so I don't think no Caron means an ineffective Stevenson. On the contrary, one could argue that Marion's superior rebounding and proclivity for attacking the lane rather than settling for midrange jumpers fill the gaps in Stevenson's profile as a player better than Caron's.

None of that means he's going to shoot 40%; he's unlikely to do so, IMO. But his season average is still close to 38% in spite of the late-season struggles, and I'd say even if he can only pull off 36% or so to go along with good defense and decision making he'll be pulling his weight and doing what the team needs him to do.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Go look at Roddy's game log from last season. I'll even link it for you.

Now, look up and down that list, and see if you can identify a common trait between 90% of the teams that Roddy had success against.

Roddy did look a lot better last season, and there could be a lot of factors do that success. But I think it's pretty clear at this point that one of the main factors was Rick's ability to pick and choose good match ups for him. He established a pretty clear method for his playing time, and he didn't over expose him.

Roddy looked a lot better last seasons BECAUSE Rick limited his minutes and picked his spots. And he was crucified for it, because some people don't have any capacity for considering context. They see a player play well, and they automatically assume that more playing time will lead to more good things. And it's not always true, as we've seen first hand this season.

I think Rick made the right decision to bench Beaubois heading into the playoffs this year, because he was given a chance to produce and he didn't. Your assumption is that Beaubois looks bad this year primarily because he was overexposed. I'm not sure that's true. I agree that he is inexperienced, but he is also coming off of a major injury. If he still sucks next year after a full summer and training camp (fingers crossed), then I'll come back and agree with you.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by JeffViggiano

i think it's better put Peja as starter with kidd-stevensson-dirk-chandler and terry/marion from the bench.

It would be nice if Peja was consistently in the lineup, but I think with the days off in the playoffs it might help him with the added rest. I can see riding out Peja early, get off to a firing start, get Marion/Terry against their B team.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I think Rick made the right decision to bench Beaubois heading into the playoffs this year, because he was given a chance to produce and he didn't. Your assumption is that Beaubois looks bad this year primarily because he was overexposed. I'm not sure that's true. I agree that he is inexperienced, but he is also coming off of a major injury. If he still sucks next year after a full summer and training camp (fingers crossed), then I'll come back and agree with you.

Being overexposed is obviously not the only factor. And how big of a factor it was is certainly up for debate. But I certainly think that it IS a factor, especially after hearing Skin and others talk yesterday about how beaten down and defeated Roddy is right now. He obviously has confidence issues, and I think it's pretty clear that Rick protected those issues last year.

I just can't fathom how anyone can watch the results of this year and still say that Rick is an idiot for not playing Roddy more last year. And to go a step further and BLAME Rick for Roddy's poor play this year, and his lack of confidence is just absurd.

Sometimes I wonder about people.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I just can't fathom how anyone can watch the results of this year and still say that Rick is an idiot for not playing Roddy more last year. And to go a step further and BLAME Rick for Roddy's poor play this year, and his lack of confidence is just absurd.

Sometimes I wonder about people.

There are SpursTalk fans who think Pop is an idiot, or has "given up," or has "lost it," every time the Spurs lose.

People are hilarious.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Being overexposed is obviously not the only factor. And how big of a factor it was is certainly up for debate. But I certainly think that it IS a factor, especially after hearing Skin and others talk yesterday about how beaten down and defeated Roddy is right now. He obviously has confidence issues, and I think it's pretty clear that Rick protected those issues last year.

He clearly lacks confidence, but I would argue that it MIGHT be because he is coming off of a major injury. Last year, he seemed to be much more able to get into the lane and to beat people off the dribble. The guy I've watched play for the past month has about as much ability to drive to the hole as Jason Kidd does. I think that is injury-driven.

I just can't fathom how anyone can watch the results of this year and still say that Rick is an idiot for not playing Roddy more last year.

The two really aren't connected at all.

And to go a step further and BLAME Rick for Roddy's poor play this year, and his lack of confidence is just absurd.

I agree with this. I think Carlisle left him in the starting lineup to give the kid ample chance to produce. When he didn't, Carlisle decided that enough was enough. His job could be on the line with another first round exit, after all.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Actually, if I remember correctly, Stevenson's best stretch of the season came in the wake of the Dirk/Caron injuries, so I don't think no Caron means an ineffective Stevenson. On the contrary, one could argue that Marion's superior rebounding and proclivity for attacking the lane rather than settling for midrange jumpers fill the gaps in Stevenson's profile as a player better than Caron's.

None of that means he's going to shoot 40%; he's unlikely to do so, IMO. But his season average is still close to 38% in spite of the late-season struggles, and I'd say even if he can only pull off 36% or so to go along with good defense and decision making he'll be pulling his weight and doing what the team needs him to do.

Unlike Boob's sample size, Stevenson has made fewer mistakes, he's the stable veteran. Unfortunately Boob's gambles have resulted in fewer positive plays. It's probably all related to not having a full camp with the guys.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Sorry, but no.

Okay, let's see. His first game where he got somewhat meaningful minutes (14 minutes), was the fifth game of the season, he shot 4-6 from the field, points. Before that, he plays 0, 3, 0, and 0 minutes. He gets the opportunity, and scores efficiently in his first game. The next three games he plays 4, 3, and 0 minutes. After that, a game again where he plays 15 minutes again, shoots 3 for 7, for 9 points again.

Next game, he plays his most minutes up until that point, 19 minutes, what does he do? Goes 6 for 6 from the field, 14 points. Next game, even more minutes, 24, he shoots 5 for 9, 12 points. Next game, 17 minutes, 4 for 8, 8 points. Next game 14 minutes, shoots 2 for 3. Next game 20 minutes, 3 for 8 (his worst shooting night up until that point, still just below 50 %) next game, 17 minutes, 3 for 7, 6 points, next game, 18 minutes, 2 of 4, 6 points.

Then Rick decides to reduce his playing time. After a more than 10 game stretch, where he consistently played around 15 minutes, and shot very well. The next to games he only plays 8 and 9 minutes only, still shooting well though. Next game he plays 13 minutes again, 3 for 5 from the field, next game even better, 21 minutes, 4 for 7, 9 points. So up until that point, he produced offensively basically every single time he got called. For some reason, after a good game, Carlisle decides, to ice the kid fora while. The next 13 games, he plays the kid 1 minute total.

After that, he plays him again for 16 minutes, for one game, 3 for 8, 8 points. Next 9 games, he plays a total of 17 minutes, that's not even 2 minutes per game. then Rick plays him more again. What happens? Of course he start producing again, 24 minutes, 5 for 8 from the field, 13 points. Next game, 12 minutes, 3 for 6, 8 points. In the next 4 games, he barely plays again, then again, a game with "big" minutes, 24 minutes, 6 for 10, 17 points, bamm! Of course he plays 2 minutes in the next game.

Another two weeks with little playing time, Roddy gets called upon again, 29 minutes, 6 of 9, 17 points. Next game, 24 minutes, 9 of 14, 22 points, career ghigh. Next game, 35 minutes, 10 of 17, 24 points, another career high. Next game, 11 points, next game 13 points, next game 11 points again, the best stretch of Roddy's young career.

What genius Rick does? Of course he glues his a** to the bench, and plays him zero minutes the next game. After that game, he plays him 8 minutes, what happens? Of course Roddy produce, 4 for 5, 11 points. Again, zero minutes the next game, after that? 8 minutes, 3 for 4, 9 points. Next game, 3 for 6, 10 points. Next game? 1 minute. LOL, it's hilarious to read this log.

Next game? What happens if Rick plays him his most minutes for the season? He goes for 40 points. Next game, literally his first bad game of the season against Denver, going 2 for 7, 15 minutes. The game after that, 4 for 8, 10 points. then he barely plays in the next 4, but still going 6 fo 13 in the process, and then he plays again significant minutes in our 81st game of the season, going 5 of 8, 11 points.


Again, the kid produced offensively basically every single time he played more than 15 minutes. Every time except one game. So sorry again, but a big fat yes.

[tsar]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

So sorry again, but a big fat yes.

Nice post. Someone just got schooled

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by tsar

Nice post. Someone just got schooled

No, not really, we just have a different opinion on the subject. LonghornDub is still easily one of the, if not the best poster here, and also funny as hell. Or is it Underdog? Always mix them up. Just kidding, they're both funny. And yes, i know i'm a Roddy homer, but that doesn't make me think i can't be right about him, or about Carlisle. RC is a good coach, but i think it's not a coincidence that he didn't have any young player in his career, who became a great player under him, but some of them became very good players once he left the team. (if i'm wrong, correct me please)

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No, not really, we just have a different opinion on the subject. LonghornDub is still easily one of the, if not the best poster here, and also funny as hell. Or is it Underdog? Always mix them up. Just kidding, they're both funny. And yes, i know i'm a Roddy homer, but that doesn't make me think i can't be right about him, or about Carlisle. RC is a good coach, but i think it's not a coincidence that he didn't have any young player in his career, who became a great player under him, but some of them became very good players once he left the team. (if i'm wrong, correct me please)

I was just ribbing you for your "Sorry, but no" punchline. You've made your point well and forcefully. I don't agree with you (I agree entirely with thig on this one), but you've defended it well, I think.

[Budapest Maverick]

Thanks. Although i still can't see it, and don't understand that "overexposed" thing. Roddy didn't play more this year (MPG) then last year in those games when he played significant minutes. Around 15 minutes, but not more than 30. Yet, last year, he was excellent in those games, from a scoring standpoint, in all of it basically, and was consistent.

And remember, Roddy didn't start to completely suck when he returned this year, his first game was good, and actually still shooting 44% for the year, which is not horrible. But in recent weeks, his body language, and his actual play plummeted. So is this really the injury, if he didn't start to suck completely right after he returned? I think it's only a logical idea that Carlisle could have done something wrong. Again, not saying he surely did, but why is it such a ridiculous idea?

[grndmstr_c]

Count me among those who think Booby's inability to get it going this year was not due to overexposure (at least not in any way that's likely to linger), but was rather the result of lingering rust, a carryover of procedural disruptions in his shooting mechanic resulting from months of shooting set shots or jump shots on recovering legs, and physical conditioning/trust in his physical conditioning that just hasn't come around to where it was before the injury. It didn't help his play this season that - to my eyes anyway - there was a much more concerted effort to get him to play as a point guard this season (and to be fair, that's arguably a form of overexposure). It's a strategy that's likely to pay dividends long term, but as a floor general he's clearly still trying to get a handle on the fine line that separates patience from tentativeness.

At any rate, the results were disappointing, but I still believe in the kid's talent.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Count me among those who think Booby's inability to get it going this year was not due to overexposure (at least not in any way that's likely to linger), but was rather the result of lingering rust, a carryover of procedural disruptions in his shooting mechanic resulting from months of shooting set shots or jump shots on recovering legs, and physical conditioning/trust in his physical conditioning that just hasn't come around to where it was before the injury. It didn't help his play this season that - to my eyes anyway - there was a much more concerted effort to get him to play as a point guard this season (and to be fair, that's arguably a form of overexposure). It's a strategy that's likely to pay dividends long term, but as a floor general he's clearly still trying to get a handle on the fine line that separates patience from tentativeness.

At any rate, the results were disappointing, but I still believe in the kid's talent.

Wow, great post, you really wrote a lot of thing that i forget and/or couldn't have write it like that.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Count me among those who think Booby's inability to get it going this year was not due to overexposure (at least not in any way that's likely to linger), but was rather the result of lingering rust, a carryover of procedural disruptions in his shooting mechanic resulting from months of shooting set shots or jump shots on recovering legs, and physical conditioning/trust in his physical conditioning that just hasn't come around to where it was before the injury. It didn't help his play this season that - to my eyes anyway - there was a much more concerted effort to get him to play as a point guard this season (and to be fair, that's arguably a form of overexposure). It's a strategy that's likely to pay dividends long term, but as a floor general he's clearly still trying to get a handle on the fine line that separates patience from tentativeness.

At any rate, the results were disappointing, but I still believe in the kid's talent.

I'm just curious what talent has Roddy showed you guys? I see this stated all the time and is it something he's shown during the summer league or before he got drafted into the league? With him I just see his potential being possibly as good as Leandro Barbosa which isn't terrible because Barbosa has had a pretty good career but coming into this season the way people talked about Roddy you would've thought he was the second coming of Oscar Robertson.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

the way people talked about Roddy you would've thought he was the second coming of Oscar Robertson.

Strawman alert...

[Budapest Maverick]

It's the combination of three things, speed, athleticism, and shooting touch. You can name fast PG's in the NBA, you can name athletic PG's, now, if you really want to find a guy who's super athletic, fast, and can shoot the ball, even from distance, you have what, one guy? Rose, and probably that's it (Westbrook still can't really shoot), and Rose's three ball was basically non existent last year. With today's guard oriented rules, there is basically no way to guard a quick guard, with a jumpshot, who can also finish around the rim. Roddy showed all that last year (granted, with limited minutes, but still, showed all of those aspects), and if you didn't see it, you need to change eyes. He also has a 6'11 wingspan. Power forwards has that kind of wingspan. He has tons of potential, i think that's a consensus amongst our players, but also GM's around the league who offered lottery picks for the kid, also his name made it to a couple of list where they discussed players with the most potential, and he barely played in the NBA yet. Obviously, there are no guarantees, he may not pan out ever, but if he puts it together, he can be a special player, no doubt.

[Kidd Karma]

I think we were expecting Roddy to come in and score 20 a night, defend the other PG mercilessly, basically replace what we lost in Caron. I think at best, we could have a guy that can backup what Terry does for the remainder of this year. His confidence has taken a shot with the past 2 weeks or so. He just has to play his game, easier said than done. Just like that GSW game 2 years ago, 1 3 pointer, became 2 became 3, became 4, like all young players he rides on emotion, confidence. He just has to get past it, erase the past and just keep playing his game.

[JHT]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Go look at Roddy's game log from last season. I'll even link it for you.

Now, look up and down that list, and see if you can identify a common trait between 90% of the teams that Roddy had success against.

It might SEEM that way from that list, but what the list doesn't tell you is the number of minutes Roddy played. What you'll see if you include that is that Rick only played Roddy heavy minutes against bad teams. It wasn't that Roddy didn't perform against good teams, he just wasn't given much of a chance to.

Usually Roddy just got garbage time against good teams.

If you look at his shooting percentages, you'll see that whether the team was good or bad, no matter how many minutes he was in, most of the time he was contributing something.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Count me among those who think Booby's inability to get it going this year was not due to overexposure (at least not in any way that's likely to linger), but was rather the result of lingering rust, a carryover of procedural disruptions in his shooting mechanic resulting from months of shooting set shots or jump shots on recovering legs, and physical conditioning/trust in his physical conditioning that just hasn't come around to where it was before the injury. It didn't help his play this season that - to my eyes anyway - there was a much more concerted effort to get him to play as a point guard this season (and to be fair, that's arguably a form of overexposure). It's a strategy that's likely to pay dividends long term, but as a floor general he's clearly still trying to get a handle on the fine line that separates patience from tentativeness.

At any rate, the results were disappointing, but I still believe in the kid's talent.

I believe in his talents too. I'm not trying to say that he's been exposed as a poor player. My opinion is that he's simply not ready to be someone that you can count on as a high end rotation player. Just as I didn't think he was ready to be that last year, and I think Rick was right to pick his spots with him.

I'm sure the injury had a lot to do with his issues as well, but I don't think it was everything. Him inability to drive looked like confidence, not any sort of agility problem to me.

He's young and I think we were all expecting too much, even without the injury.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Thanks. Although i still can't see it, and don't understand that "overexposed" thing. Roddy didn't play more this year (MPG) then last year in those games when he played significant minutes. Around 15 minutes, but not more than 30. Yet, last year, he was excellent in those games, from a scoring standpoint, in all of it basically, and was consistent.

And remember, Roddy didn't start to completely suck when he returned this year, his first game was good, and actually still shooting 44% for the year, which is not horrible. But in recent weeks, his body language, and his actual play plummeted. So is this really the injury, if he didn't start to suck completely right after he returned? I think it's only a logical idea that Carlisle could have done something wrong. Again, not saying he surely did, but why is it such a ridiculous idea?

My problem is you're trying to play both sides. You think Rick did something wrong last year by not playing him enough, and now you think he did something wrong by leaning on him too much.

As far as overexposed, it's not about MPG, it's about being relied upon every game. Last year Rick protected him by moving him in and out of the lineup, and by picking matchups. He played a ton against crappy teams, and I don't think that was any accident.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No, not really, we just have a different opinion on the subject. LonghornDub is still easily one of the, if not the best poster here, and also funny as hell. Or is it Underdog? Always mix them up. Just kidding, they're both funny. And yes, i know i'm a Roddy homer, but that doesn't make me think i can't be right about him, or about Carlisle. RC is a good coach, but i think it's not a coincidence that he didn't have any young player in his career, who became a great player under him, but some of them became very good players once he left the team. (if i'm wrong, correct me please)

Jalen Rose did a lot of growing up under Carlisle when he was the primary assistant (and the "offensive coordinator") for the Pacers. That's probably the closest thing to a good example.

He's certainly a veterans coach, as almost all are. But he game Roddy one hell of a shot this year and blaming him for his struggles is pretty silly imo.

[sylvestian]

Lineup change or even Roddy beeing inactive´s just ridiculous. Roddy really knows he has to step up for helping mavs to win. and by the way he was far from strugglin against blazers this year... so watch out what happens tonight. you relying so much on producing off the bench with dsteve...there´s NOBODY than Dirk (wow thats above and beyond from beeing a true contender) in the starting five who can create his own shot...Simply nothin but givin Dirk about 45 shots a game translates what this starting five needs at this time of the year... sorry for my english, from germany