If you were RC what would your starting lineup be? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Bynum4MVP · 01-25-2012, 07:32 PM

Against the more vet teams

PG: Kidd/West
SG: Marion
SF: Odom
PF: Dirk
C: Haywood

Why can't Marion play SG?

mavsfan1000 · 01-25-2012, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Against the more vet teams

PG: Kidd/West
SG: Marion
SF: Odom
PF: Dirk
C: Haywood

Why can't Marion play SG?

Because it would kill the spacing on the offense. We need a shooting guard that can shoot.

Bynum4MVP · 01-25-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Because it would kill the spacing on the offense. We need a shooting guard that can shoot.

The one left out of the lineup is West and West isn't really a good shooter. I can't really say West is a better shooter than Marion.

Terry's the best SG on the team but the Mavs need him for bench scoring.

mavsfan1000 · 01-25-2012, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

The one left out of the lineup is West and West isn't really a good shooter. I can't really say West is a better shooter than Marion.

Terry's the best SG on the team but the Mavs need him for bench scoring.

Marion and Butler didn't work. Why would Marion and Odom be better? The ball handling, loss of speed, and passing would suffer. Put Kidd in, we are turtle slow with the bigger lineup. We need West out there to give us some more speed that we are lacking. I'm definitely for the West/Carter lineup to allow for more shooting.

cowboyuptx · 01-26-2012, 01:51 AM

I cant believe how many of you misguided souls believe that West and/or Roddy should start over Kidd...

This shows one of two things, either you're too young to remember the Mavs of the 90's, or you didn't jump on the bandwagon until Dirk and Nash came to town... You all obviously didn't suffer through those terrible seasons in the early 90's, then to see us draft Jason Kidd and begin to turn it around, only to trade Kidd for an average player in Finley...

When Kidd got to Phoenix, they had by far the worst record in the NBA... Install Kidd, and they ended up making the playoffs that year, and every year he was with Suns... Nash was Kidd's backup in Phoenix, the Mavs traded a first-rounder to the Suns for Nash, the Suns used that pick to draft Shawn Marion... Isn't funny how it all came full circle....

New Jersey was basketball purgatory when Kidd arrived, no doubt one of the worst franchises... Install Kidd, he leads them to the Finals his first two seasons in New Jersey... Meanwhile, the Suns and Marburry missed the playoffs...

Nets trade Kidd for Devin Harris and some picks, most Mavs fans whine and cry, because they believe that Harris is a star in the making... Fast forward a few seasons, and the Mavs win their first NBA Championship, with a 38yo Kidd playing big minutes... And how's Harris' career going, is he the perennial all-star that most of you had envisioned? No, he's still the same flawed player that he was...

See, if you have been a fan of this team as long as I have, then you would view Kidd's return to this team as a Godsend, and you would show him a similar amount of respect that you all reserve for Dirk... Remember, Kidd was the best player on a team that made it to the Finals twice, before Dirk had made it once... Neither of them have won it all without the other...

Again, you would've had to have been a Mavericks fan back in the days of the 3 J's to understand what Kidd means to this franchise... You would have to have known what it's like to wake up one day and hear that your favorite team, just sent a its franchise player, and future HOFer, to the Phoenix Suns for a pretty average player in Michael Finley... For the people who have truly followed this team for the past 20 years, we know that Dirk is great and we love him, but we also know that the success we achieved with Dirk, would have been nothing less if the Mavs had just kept Jason Kidd...

And I know, Kidd's older now, he's not the same player he was in 04, but damn, you don't know shit if you think Roddy/West is a better player than him...

My starting 5?

Whatever Rick thinks it should be... Hasn't RC proven that he knows what the hell he is doing? Hasn't he earned a little more than for you to whine about who is or isn't getting minutes? I think he has, certainly in my book he has...

Honestly, most of you people have either forgotten, or never really understood how and why we won it all last season....

Kidd Karma · 01-26-2012, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboyuptx

I cant believe how many of you misguided souls believe that West and/or Roddy should start over Kidd...

This shows one of two things, either you're too young to remember the Mavs of the 90's, or you didn't jump on the bandwagon until Dirk and Nash came to town... You all obviously didn't suffer through those terrible seasons in the early 90's, then to see us draft Jason Kidd and begin to turn it around, only to trade Kidd for an average player in Finley...

When Kidd got to Phoenix, they had by far the worst record in the NBA... Install Kidd, and they ended up making the playoffs that year, and every year he was with Suns... Nash was Kidd's backup in Phoenix, the Mavs traded a first-rounder to the Suns for Nash, the Suns used that pick to draft Shawn Marion... Isn't funny how it all came full circle....

New Jersey was basketball purgatory when Kidd arrived, no doubt one of the worst franchises... Install Kidd, he leads them to the Finals his first two seasons in New Jersey... Meanwhile, the Suns and Marburry missed the playoffs...

Nets trade Kidd for Devin Harris and some picks, most Mavs fans whine and cry, because they believe that Harris is a star in the making... Fast forward a few seasons, and the Mavs win their first NBA Championship, with a 38yo Kidd playing big minutes... And how's Harris' career going, is he the perennial all-star that most of you had envisioned? No, he's still the same flawed player that he was...

See, if you have been a fan of this team as long as I have, then you would view Kidd's return to this team as a Godsend, and you would show him a similar amount of respect that you all reserve for Dirk... Remember, Kidd was the best player on a team that made it to the Finals twice, before Dirk had made it once... Neither of them have won it all without the other...

Again, you would've had to have been a Mavericks fan back in the days of the 3 J's to understand what Kidd means to this franchise... You would have to have known what it's like to wake up one day and hear that your favorite team, just sent a its franchise player, and future HOFer, to the Phoenix Suns for a pretty average player in Michael Finley... For the people who have truly followed this team for the past 20 years, we know that Dirk is great and we love him, but we also know that the success we achieved with Dirk, would have been nothing less if the Mavs had just kept Jason Kidd...

And I know, Kidd's older now, he's not the same player he was in 04, but damn, you don't know shit if you think Roddy/West is a better player than him...

My starting 5?

Whatever Rick thinks it should be... Hasn't RC proven that he knows what the hell he is doing? Hasn't he earned a little more than for you to whine about who is or isn't getting minutes? I think he has, certainly in my book he has...

Honestly, most of you people have either forgotten, or never really understood how and why we won it all last season....

Now, we have to put all the history behind us and focus on the future, the immediate future. We need Kidd come April-May-June, we need Kidd on a full tank of gas, his focus will be sharper, right now to him, it's preseason, he's feeling out the rest of the team, getting to know them again, learning the new guys, developing the chemistry. I'm more worried about his minutes, than whether to start him or not. RC has a habit of playing Kidd the full 1st and 3rd quarters, i think he needs to pull him with 3-4 minutes remaining and put him back with 3-4 minutes left in each half. That should limit him to about 24-26 a night. I would think he'd have a bit more in the tank come crunch time.

Here's a few more tidbits and Kidd's history. Cuban bought Mavs season tickets because of Kidd.....without Kidd, Cuban doesn't own the Mavs. Don Nelson said that he would not have traded Kidd if he was asked.

mavsfan1000 · 01-26-2012, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboyuptx

I cant believe how many of you misguided souls believe that West and/or Roddy should start over Kidd...

This shows one of two things, either you're too young to remember the Mavs of the 90's, or you didn't jump on the bandwagon until Dirk and Nash came to town... You all obviously didn't suffer through those terrible seasons in the early 90's, then to see us draft Jason Kidd and begin to turn it around, only to trade Kidd for an average player in Finley...

When Kidd got to Phoenix, they had by far the worst record in the NBA... Install Kidd, and they ended up making the playoffs that year, and every year he was with Suns... Nash was Kidd's backup in Phoenix, the Mavs traded a first-rounder to the Suns for Nash, the Suns used that pick to draft Shawn Marion... Isn't funny how it all came full circle....

New Jersey was basketball purgatory when Kidd arrived, no doubt one of the worst franchises... Install Kidd, he leads them to the Finals his first two seasons in New Jersey... Meanwhile, the Suns and Marburry missed the playoffs...

Nets trade Kidd for Devin Harris and some picks, most Mavs fans whine and cry, because they believe that Harris is a star in the making... Fast forward a few seasons, and the Mavs win their first NBA Championship, with a 38yo Kidd playing big minutes... And how's Harris' career going, is he the perennial all-star that most of you had envisioned? No, he's still the same flawed player that he was...

See, if you have been a fan of this team as long as I have, then you would view Kidd's return to this team as a Godsend, and you would show him a similar amount of respect that you all reserve for Dirk... Remember, Kidd was the best player on a team that made it to the Finals twice, before Dirk had made it once... Neither of them have won it all without the other...

Again, you would've had to have been a Mavericks fan back in the days of the 3 J's to understand what Kidd means to this franchise... You would have to have known what it's like to wake up one day and hear that your favorite team, just sent a its franchise player, and future HOFer, to the Phoenix Suns for a pretty average player in Michael Finley... For the people who have truly followed this team for the past 20 years, we know that Dirk is great and we love him, but we also know that the success we achieved with Dirk, would have been nothing less if the Mavs had just kept Jason Kidd...

And I know, Kidd's older now, he's not the same player he was in 04, but damn, you don't know shit if you think Roddy/West is a better player than him...

My starting 5?

Whatever Rick thinks it should be... Hasn't RC proven that he knows what the hell he is doing? Hasn't he earned a little more than for you to whine about who is or isn't getting minutes? I think he has, certainly in my book he has...

Honestly, most of you people have either forgotten, or never really understood how and why we won it all last season....

If everyone on this team was playing like when they were in their prime, this would be one of the great teams. Unfortunately, Kidd has had to change his style of play due to his age. That style of play is far less effective than the athletic Kidd of 10 years ago.

deamon · 01-26-2012, 04:19 PM

VC will probably play at Friday so vs. Utah:

PG: Kidd
SG: West
SF: Carter
PF: Marion
C: Haywood

cowboyuptx · 01-26-2012, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Now, we have to put all the history behind us and focus on the future, the immediate future. We need Kidd come April-May-June, we need Kidd on a full tank of gas, his focus will be sharper, right now to him, it's preseason, he's feeling out the rest of the team, getting to know them again, learning the new guys, developing the chemistry. I'm more worried about his minutes, than whether to start him or not. RC has a habit of playing Kidd the full 1st and 3rd quarters, i think he needs to pull him with 3-4 minutes remaining and put him back with 3-4 minutes left in each half. That should limit him to about 24-26 a night. I would think he'd have a bit more in the tank come crunch time.

Here's a few more tidbits and Kidd's history. Cuban bought Mavs season tickets because of Kidd.....without Kidd, Cuban doesn't own the Mavs. Don Nelson said that he would not have traded Kidd if he was asked.

I think you've got a pretty good grasp on things and make some good points... I also think it could be a good idea to lessen his minutes to the 24-28 range, but for the reasons you stated, that he would be fresher in crunch time, and not because others are necessarily more deserving of those minutes...

mavsfan1000 · 01-26-2012, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deamon

VC will probably play at Friday so vs. Utah:

PG: Kidd
SG: West
SF: Carter
PF: Marion
C: Haywood

Or
West
Carter
Marion
Odom
Haywood

dude1394 · 01-26-2012, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Now, we have to put all the history behind us and focus on the future, the immediate future. We need Kidd come April-May-June, we need Kidd on a full tank of gas, his focus will be sharper, right now to him, it's preseason, he's feeling out the rest of the team, getting to know them again, learning the new guys, developing the chemistry. I'm more worried about his minutes, than whether to start him or not. RC has a habit of playing Kidd the full 1st and 3rd quarters, i think he needs to pull him with 3-4 minutes remaining and put him back with 3-4 minutes left in each half. That should limit him to about 24-26 a night. I would think he'd have a bit more in the tank come crunch time.

Here's a few more tidbits and Kidd's history. Cuban bought Mavs season tickets because of Kidd.....without Kidd, Cuban doesn't own the Mavs. Don Nelson said that he would not have traded Kidd if he was asked.

Actually Carlisle has begun to sub jkiddo out with 2-3 minutes left in the first. Im not sure about the third.

dude1394 · 01-26-2012, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Or
West
Carter
Marion
Odom
Haywood

West isn't nearly as good as you think.

mavsfan1000 · 01-27-2012, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

West isn't nearly as good as you think.

He is better than Kidd at this point in his career. Kidd is on his last legs. Definitely his last year imo

dude1394 · 01-27-2012, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

He is better than Kidd at this point in his career. Kidd is on his last legs. Definitely his last year imo

He's definitely better athletically. But he's not nearly as good as you think. He's a very slow decision maker I think.

deamon · 01-27-2012, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

He is better than Kidd at this point in his career. Kidd is on his last legs. Definitely his last year imo

No he isn't. West can run faster than Kidd and that's it.

samoan-maverickII · 01-27-2012, 07:12 AM

PG: No Odom
SG: No Odom
SF: No Odom
PF: Dirk
C: No Odom

Bench: No Odom (Kinda Ify on the PF position)

41mvp · 01-27-2012, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samoan-maverickII

PG: No Odom
SG: No Odom
SF: No Odom
PF: Dirk
C: No Odom

Bench: No Odom (Kinda Ify on the PF position)

good one haha

JeffViggiano · 01-27-2012, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samoan-maverickII

PG: No Odom
SG: No Odom
SF: No Odom
PF: Dirk
C: No Odom

Bench: No Odom (Kinda Ify on the PF position)

hahahaha

anyway Kidd isn't done,i'm sure that he will play much better in PO...no doubt about this.
maybe now he could play less minutes...West and Roddy in RS are good.

mavsfan1000 · 01-27-2012, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deamon

No he isn't. West can run faster than Kidd and that's it.

And shoot better, better defense, and better hustle on loose balls. Don't forget better ball handling.

SMC0007 · 01-27-2012, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

And shoot better, better defense, and better hustle on loose balls. Don't forget better ball handling.

He looks a lot more like the Mavsman too.

dude1394 · 01-27-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

And shoot better, better defense, and better hustle on loose balls. Don't forget better ball handling.

Better ball handling my foot. I also don't believe he is a better defender, certainly not as good of a help defender. Shooter I think will even out.

SMC0007 · 01-27-2012, 07:48 PM

Define ball handler

mavsfan1000 · 01-27-2012, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Define ball handler

Being able to drive.

Underdog · 01-28-2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Define ball handler

Easy setup.

FINtastic · 01-28-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Easy setup.

"You must spread rep..."

Popeye · 01-28-2012, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboyuptx

I cant believe how many of you misguided souls believe that West and/or Roddy should start over Kidd...

This shows one of two things, either you're too young to remember the Mavs of the 90's, or you didn't jump on the bandwagon until Dirk and Nash came to town... You all obviously didn't suffer through those terrible seasons in the early 90's, then to see us draft Jason Kidd and begin to turn it around, only to trade Kidd for an average player in Finley...

When Kidd got to Phoenix, they had by far the worst record in the NBA... Install Kidd, and they ended up making the playoffs that year, and every year he was with Suns... Nash was Kidd's backup in Phoenix, the Mavs traded a first-rounder to the Suns for Nash, the Suns used that pick to draft Shawn Marion... Isn't funny how it all came full circle....

New Jersey was basketball purgatory when Kidd arrived, no doubt one of the worst franchises... Install Kidd, he leads them to the Finals his first two seasons in New Jersey... Meanwhile, the Suns and Marburry missed the playoffs...

Nets trade Kidd for Devin Harris and some picks, most Mavs fans whine and cry, because they believe that Harris is a star in the making... Fast forward a few seasons, and the Mavs win their first NBA Championship, with a 38yo Kidd playing big minutes... And how's Harris' career going, is he the perennial all-star that most of you had envisioned? No, he's still the same flawed player that he was...

See, if you have been a fan of this team as long as I have, then you would view Kidd's return to this team as a Godsend, and you would show him a similar amount of respect that you all reserve for Dirk... Remember, Kidd was the best player on a team that made it to the Finals twice, before Dirk had made it once... Neither of them have won it all without the other...

Again, you would've had to have been a Mavericks fan back in the days of the 3 J's to understand what Kidd means to this franchise... You would have to have known what it's like to wake up one day and hear that your favorite team, just sent a its franchise player, and future HOFer, to the Phoenix Suns for a pretty average player in Michael Finley... For the people who have truly followed this team for the past 20 years, we know that Dirk is great and we love him, but we also know that the success we achieved with Dirk, would have been nothing less if the Mavs had just kept Jason Kidd...

And I know, Kidd's older now, he's not the same player he was in 04, but damn, you don't know shit if you think Roddy/West is a better player than him...

I appreciate your respect for Kidd, but at some point guys like Roddy & West are going to be better players than him. I mean, when Kidd's 45 are we still going to be talking about how it's ridiculous not to start him because he's a future HOF'er and took the Nets to the Finals twice?

Kidd still has value to this team assuming he's able to stay healthy and gets his 3-point shot back, but it's perfectly reasonable to cut back back on his minutes.

Budapest Maverick · 01-28-2012, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Don't forget better ball handling.

Lmao.

LonghornDub · 01-28-2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Don't forget better ball handling.

I like West, but LOL.

jthig32 · 01-28-2012, 03:47 PM

West does have a very, very good handle. I'm not sure I would laugh at that notion.

LonghornDub · 01-28-2012, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

West does have a very, very good handle. I'm not sure I would laugh at that notion.

His handle is quite good; Kidd's is all-time. We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

jthig32 · 01-28-2012, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

His handle is quite good; Kidd's is all-time. We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

Well, I would say that today's version of Kidd never really has a chance to show his handle, so is it really an asset if it never contributes anything?

FINtastic · 01-28-2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well, I would say that today's version of Kidd never really has a chance to show his handle, so is it really an asset if it never contributes anything?

Agreed. Kidd has slowed down to the point where I don't think you can really call him the better ball handler in any meaningful sense for an NBA game. I mean, the guy basically has to turn his back to shield the ball from the defender whenever he dribbles in a halfcourt set because he can't really make them pay for gambling at steals.

LonghornDub · 01-28-2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well, I would say that today's version of Kidd never really has a chance to show his handle, so is it really an asset if it never contributes anything?

I don't agree with this, though. I think he shows his handle all the time. If we're talking about the ability to penetrate, that's one thing, and it's clear West is stronger in that area. But as far as fluidity with the ball, being able to transition from dribbling to various stances, dribbling to passing, and general ambidexterity....I don't think West is in Kidd's class, even today.

For me, West is a guy with some nice handling skills, but Kidd is a guy who handles so naturally that it's as if the ball were an extension of his body. I consider that a separate attribute from the ability to face a guy up and penetrate (which Kidd could still do handles-wise if his body was quick enough to beat anybody).

jthig32 · 01-28-2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I don't agree with this, though. I think he shows his handle all the time. If we're talking about the ability to penetrate, that's one thing, and it's clear West is stronger in that area. But as far as fluidity with the ball, being able to transition from dribbling to various stances, dribbling to passing, and general ambidexterity....I don't think West is in Kidd's class, even today.

For me, West is a guy with some nice handling skills, but Kidd is a guy who handles so naturally that it's as if the ball were an extension of his body. I consider that a separate attribute from the ability to face a guy up and penetrate (which Kidd could still do handles-wise if his body was quick enough to beat anybody).

Well, I would say in general when someone is discussing a handle, it has to do with their ability to handle the ball in traffic. It's what kept Finely from being a dominant shooting guard (dude couldn't drive for the life of him).

You do make a good point about Kidd's handle allowing him to make a very wide array of passes.

Bayliss · 01-28-2012, 05:47 PM

He hasn't displayed it much this year but generally speaking Kidd makes better decisions while handling the ball. He ain't going to put on a curly Neal display but he ain't going to get pick pocketed as often either. I trust Kidd dribbling the ball over any maverick if they have to keep the ball and make the right play.

dude1394 · 01-28-2012, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

West does have a very, very good handle. I'm not sure I would laugh at that notion.

I think he has a good handle, but he losses it in traffic a lot.

Budapest Maverick · 01-28-2012, 07:15 PM

Handle<>penetration. Kidd's ball handling will be better at the age 50 than West's is now. Kidd can't penetrate because he's slow, not because his handle is any worse than it was in his prime.

CadBane · 01-28-2012, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Agreed. Kidd has slowed down to the point where I don't think you can really call him the better ball handler in any meaningful sense for an NBA game. I mean, the guy basically has to turn his back to shield the ball from the defender whenever he dribbles in a halfcourt set because he can't really make them pay for gambling at steals.

So much this. This is precisely what Kidd does at this stage. He has to turn his back to shield his defender when he get pressed. That's what poor handling PGs do. That's what Marko Jaric did his whole career. Portland actually got some careless turnovers when Kidd resorted to that in the Game 4 collapse last year.

Kidd is not a better handler than West at this stage. West has a TOV of 17% vs. Kidd's staggering 29.2%. Yes, some of that is from bad passing (another issue of concern), but some are simple handling turnovers. West has a really nice cross-over, also.

SMC0007 · 01-28-2012, 09:37 PM

Handles to me has more to do with controlling the ball especially on the dribble. Not what you do with it once you pick it up, whether it be to shoot, or pass. West is way more slick with the ball on the dribble than Kidd. He doesn't see the floor as well but he can handle the ball and move around so much better. Kidd is great at dribbling the ball up the floor and then picking it up to find an open guy but he rarely does anything more than that.

LonghornDub · 01-29-2012, 01:29 AM

Sounds like we all just have a different view of what "handles" means. I think it encompasses a lot more than whether you can beat a guy off the dribble or whether you have to turn your back to keep space.