The"Crap, it didn't happen..but it was awesome to think of" thread

[Firnen]

that writer doesn't count the state income tax into the numbers and is wrong about the capholds for the open roster spots...

as metioned the missing tax in texas gives the mavs a near 7% advantage over NY/NJ. if you keep dirk and sign wdill and dwight you have capholds for 9 (not 12) open roster spots. -> ~ 1,500,000 $ more money for willams and howard

edit: with this in mind we can sign both of them to ~ 16.7 million$ deals instead of 15.9 million (with the tax situation in mind NJ must give 17.9 million to them to match our offer)

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by iella

UD, you are full of lies.

I see what I want to see.

CORRECTION: the article above completely downplays state income tax - the 7% tax in NJ is a significant amount of money (~5.7mil for Dwight), especially since the writer seems to be nickle and diming his case against the Mavericks being able to sign both players...

[iella]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I see what I want to see.

Ain't that the truth.

[endrity]

What if, and I think it's quite possible for it to happen if both Dwight and Deron come to Dallas, Dirk takes a paycut?

All the three stars for Miami did it. And Dirk making 20 mil while the other two make about 15 isn't going to look very good.

Now I know that Dirk already took a paycut for the team before, and I know that this is his last big deal but he's certainly made enough money to think that through. This is where his lack of endorsements really hurt him. He could have easily made 20-30 mil more during his career to more than offset his possible foregone earnings here.

If Dirk takes a 5 mil paycut, with the team promising him an extra year, than all three will make about 45 mil together leaving enough additional room for other players as well. I am sure Kidd would sign for the veteran minimum just to back up Deron. He admitted that. Jet probably wants to stay here for a bit as well.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by endrity

What if, and I think it's quite possible for it to happen if both Dwight and Deron come to Dallas, Dirk takes a paycut?

All the three stars for Miami did it. And Dirk making 20 mil while the other two make about 15 isn't going to look very good.

Now I know that Dirk already took a paycut for the team before, and I know that this is his last big deal but he's certainly made enough money to think that through. This is where his lack of endorsements really hurt him. He could have easily made 20-30 mil more during his career to more than offset his possible foregone earnings here.

If Dirk takes a 5 mil paycut, with the team promising him an extra year, than all three will make about 45 mil together leaving enough additional room for other players as well. I am sure Kidd would sign for the veteran minimum just to back up Deron. He admitted that. Jet probably wants to stay here for a bit as well.

Dirk can't restructure his contract under the new CBA.

[endrity]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Dirk can't restructure his contract under the new CBA.

shit! I never heard of this new rule. Well that sucks for all involved, why wouldn't teams and player want to have that option.

[mavs777]

Honestly I don't think money will play a role unless dwights traded to NJ.

[Firnen]

which is the right state income tax for NJ Nets? NY or NJ. little bit confused at this point.NY State income tax is ~ 9%
... also found sth about an additional NY city income tax ~ 4%

anybody with reliable information about the taxes up there?

[rabbitproof]

I doubt state taxes makes a big difference. He is leaving Florida.

If you look at the money Rose recently signed for with just adidas (250M), you get the sense that Dwight is looking to bankroll something in the 9 digits(!) in surplus of his would-be extension for his move out of Orlando.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Firnen

which is the right state income tax for NJ Nets? NY or NJ. little bit confused at this point.NY State income tax is ~ 9%
... also found sth about an additional NY city income tax ~ 4%

anybody with reliable information about the taxes up there?

Well, i know for sure it just count for home games. Back with the dustchip crap i remembered something about a 4.5% advantage. Could be this 9/2.

[AO41]

Kidd sure seems to have a ton of respect for D Will......he said "Where D Wull goed is where I am gonna try to go" and offers D Will the keys to his job in Dallas " right now" if he wants them

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Firnen

which is the right state income tax for NJ Nets? NY or NJ. little bit confused at this point.NY State income tax is ~ 9%
... also found sth about an additional NY city income tax ~ 4%

anybody with reliable information about the taxes up there?

Nobody ever reads my posts unless there's squirrel nuts in it...

New Jersey has a 7% state income tax.



EDIT: I forgot that the Nets were moving to Brooklyn, so NY's 9% state income tax and NYC's 4% city income tax puts it at a whopping 13% chunk of their salary going into additional taxes.

Texas is looking better and better financially - especially when you consider the price of real estate (thanks for reminding me why I live here!)

[BGMaverick9]

I know this is 3D-centric, but a name that should be kept in mind is CJ Miles. That's a name I'm hearing tossed around.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Firnen

which is the right state income tax for NJ Nets? NY or NJ. little bit confused at this point.NY State income tax is ~ 9%
... also found sth about an additional NY city income tax ~ 4%

anybody with reliable information about the taxes up there?

Assuming Dwight and Deron would live in NY state and not NJ, they would pay NY state taxes. If for some reason they lived in NJ, they would still pay NY state taxes because that's where they'd be working (after the Nets move to Brooklyn), but they'd also owe certain NJ state income taxes as residents. They'd get a credit on the NJ taxes based on what they pay to NY, though, because NY and NJ have a pretty nice reciprocity agreement.

[Firnen]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I know this is 3D-centric, but a name that should be kept in mind is CJ Miles. That's a name I'm hearing tossed around.

maybe he could replace Lamar Odom this season. SG/SF for the backup minutes, expiring deal, Utah is under the cap and could take on Odoms salary easily.

edit: he's also a dallas native

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I know this is 3D-centric, but a name that should be kept in mind is CJ Miles. That's a name I'm hearing tossed around.

for what?

[BGMaverick9]

a target this off-season

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Firnen

maybe he could replace Lamar Odom this season. SG/SF for the backup minutes, expiring deal, Utah is under the cap and could take on Odoms salary easily.

edit: he's also a dallas native

Yea, looks like we're searching around for expiring wing men. Can see them eating Lamar's buyout year next summer.

[MavsFTR]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I know this is 3D-centric, but a name that should be kept in mind is CJ Miles. That's a name I'm hearing tossed around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGITYrD1LdE&feature=fvst

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Underdog

The article above completely ignores the money that would be saved in state income tax - New Jersey would take an additional 7% of their salary...

NJ's tax rate for those over 500,000 is basically 9%. 139,700,00 in NJ would cost Howard 12.6mill in taxes he would not pay in Texas. In LA he would be paying close to that at 8.75%. If he really runs the numbers, he'd make MORE money with a smaller contract in Texas than he would in ORL, NJ or LA. Of course, if its all about maximizing money, then 3D can't happen, unless Williams is willing to take 12mill.

We are looking at around 30mill in cap space if things go well and the two are eligible for a combined 36.2mill. To get both, they are going to have to take a salary smaller than their max and also this year's salary of about 3mill per year of their contract.
Howard 19mill
Williams 17.2mill

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

139,700,00 in NJ would cost Howard 12.6mill in taxes he would not pay in Texas.

The most he can get in NJ is ~$82mil - that $139 figure is if he re-signs with Orlando for max money plus that extra 5th year...

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

a target this off-season

DWill and Miles is an interesting convergence of careers dating back to their prep days.

[mavs777]

miles is intruiging he can do some things for sure, i just hate how many contested threes he settles for tho

[nowhereman]

Umm.. I'm fairly certain players don't pay in state taxes for games played out of state, but rather, pay the tax of the city where they play the game. So for an east coast team, that's something like 40 extra games where you'd be paying taxes - substantial, but it's certainly not an extra 82 games worth of taxes, and less than half as much tax difference as the figures given above.

PS that figure comes from calculating a difference based on assumptions that an East Coast team would play 1 away game in Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston, and 2 in Miami and Orlando (7 tax free games), compared to Dallas where you get 41 home games that are tax free, plus 2 in Houston and San Antonio and one in Miami and Orlando (47 tax free games).

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Umm.. I'm fairly certain players don't pay in state taxes for games played out of state, but rather, pay the tax of the city where they play the game. So for an east coast team, that's something like 40 extra games where you'd be paying taxes - substantial, but it's certainly not an extra 82 games worth of taxes, and less than half as much tax difference as the figures given above.

Yeah, forgot about that.

Away games versus Knicks will still count though...

[nowhereman]

PS the Grizzlies also have no state income tax, so the numbers I gave above stay should adjust accordingly.

It's very important to consider in this debate the states that have the highest income tax and calculate the effective rate a player pays that accounts for where they play. In California, if you make over a million dollars, you pay >10%. There's also states where your tax is federal tax deductible. There's a ton of considerations here that would effect the actual tax advantage gained - to say nothing about the other factors (marketing, shoe contract bonuses, subjective preferences) in play.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Underdog

The most he can get in NJ is ~$82mil - that $139 figure is if he re-signs with Orlando for max money plus that extra 5th year...

Yeah I dont like comparing the 1+5 yr contract to 2x4yr contracts, but if he were to push a few numbers around and do the yearly average...

just some rough numbers
ORLopt-in- 5/139.7mill, no tax (28mill/yr avg)
NJ trade opt in-1+4/111.09, 9% tax (20.2mill/yr avg)
DAL trade opt in- 1+4/111.09, no tax (22.2mill/yr avg)
NJ signs in FA - 4/81.3, 9% tax (18.5mill/yr avg)
DAL signs in FA- 4/81.3 no tax (20.3mill/yr avg)

[LonghornDub]

*edit* double post

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Umm.. I'm fairly certain players don't pay in state taxes for games played out of state, but rather, pay the tax of the city where they play the game. So for an east coast team, that's something like 40 extra games where you'd be paying taxes - substantial, but it's certainly not an extra 82 games worth of taxes, and less than half as much tax difference as the figures given above.

This is state-by-state and city-by-city. It's been colloquially called the "jock tax," and several states have it (most notably California), but it's not everywhere. Also, I'm not sure that every home state allows a credit based on jock taxes, so paying away game taxes doesn't necessarily offset the high taxes in the athlete's home state.

I think DC was talking about enacting one sometime last spring. Dunno if it ever happened.

*edit to add* Some light Googling says that as of 2009, 20 of the 24 states with pro sports teams have a jock tax.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Yeah I dont like comparing the 1+5 yr contract to 2x4yr contracts, but if he were to push a few numbers around and do the yearly average...

just some rough numbers
ORLopt-in- 5/139.7mill, no tax (28mill/yr avg)
NJ trade opt in-1+4/111.09, 9% tax (20.2mill/yr avg)
DAL trade opt in- 1+4/111.09, no tax (22.2mill/yr avg)
NJ signs in FA - 4/81.3, 9% tax (18.5mill/yr avg)
DAL signs in FA- 4/81.3 no tax (20.3mill/yr avg)

Thanks for the maths - this clears things up a bit...

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by jthig32

The only quibble I have with that assessment is that if the cap goes up even a couple million, it changes the situations dramatically for the Mavs.

DLord seems to think it will go up to just over 60 Mil.

that would certainly be nice. We are looking at about a 6million difference. If it was 4 and each player only needed 2mill/yr cut, I could see that tipping the scales, particularly because that 8.9% income tax in NJ makes up a mill or two.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

This is state-by-state and city-by-city. It's been colloquially called the "jock tax," and several states have it (most notably California), but it's not everywhere.

I think DC was talking about enacting one sometime last spring. Dunno if it ever happened.

Nice - thanks, did not know that term for it. And you're right - quick search shows that DC didn't implement it but was considering it last April.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Nice - thanks, did not know that term for it. And you're right - quick search shows that DC didn't implement it but was considering it last April.

Interesting. I'm sorta surprised it didn't go through--easy way to add to revenue.

I added a bit more info to my post above too, if you're curious.

[nowhereman]

^ yeah, one would think so. I think it might have been a matter of lack of congressional appetite (with budget ceiling crises and what not) last year. Found this article - http://freedomandprosperity.org/2011...jock-tax-plan/ - on it, but it only argues for things generally wrong with the tax, rather than the tax as applied to DC. As a DC resident, I'd be all about them taking some of that money and fixing the damn metro system.

[Kidd Karma]

Oh and prices in and around NYC, if you're not familiar.....sticker shock, 20 dollar burgers.

[Underdog]

So Dallas and New Jersey are the only teams in the running to get both Dwight AND Deron, and from what I can tell, the money is about the same in either city (give or take a couple drops in the bucket...)

So it really boils down to winning rings:


Ownership

Mark Cuban is an owner who has kept the Mavs competitive throughout Dirk's entire career and just won a championship with a supporting cast that included a streaky Jason Terry as their second scorer, an over-the-hill Jason Kidd, an injury-plagued Tyson Chandler and some midget from Puerto Rico that nobody had heard of... The point is, the guy knows how to put together a winning team.

Mikhail Prokhorov is busy running for President of Russia, has attended zero Nets games this season and has only met Deron Williams three times since he traded for him (and ol' Deron doesn't sound too happy about that...)


Coaching

Rick Carlisle just won a championship with a supporting cast that included a streaky Jason Terry as their second scorer, an over-the-hill Jason Kidd, an injury-plagued Tyson Chandler and some midget from Puerto Rico that nobody had heard of... The point is, the guy knows how to maximize the talent he's given.

Avery Johnson won Coach of the Year before getting schooled in the Finals by three-time Coach of the Year, Pat Riley. He then went on to take credit for Dirk's MVP Award shortly before he led the Mavs to an embarrassing 1st Round exit because he decided to play down to his competition by benching his starting center. He happily drew paychecks from Cuban for a couple years and then landed a second chance coaching the bottom-feeding Nets to awful results.


Simple Maths

Dwight + Deron = 2

Dwight + Deron + Dirk = 3

3 > 2

[CapitanObvious]

Originally Posted by Underdog

So Dallas and New Jersey are the only teams in the running to get both Dwight AND Deron, and from what I can tell, the money is about the same in either city (give or take a couple drops in the bucket...)

So it really boils down to winning rings:


Ownership

Mark Cuban is an owner who has kept the Mavs competitive throughout Dirk's entire career and just won a championship with a supporting cast that included a streaky Jason Terry as their second scorer, an over-the-hill Jason Kidd, an injury-plagued Tyson Chandler and some midget from Puerto Rico that nobody had heard of... The point is, the guy knows how to put together a winning team.

Mikhail Prokhorov is busy running for President of Russia, has attended zero Nets games this season and has only met Deron Williams three times since he traded for him (and ol' Deron doesn't sound too happy about that...)


Coaching

Rick Carlisle just won a championship with a supporting cast that included a streaky Jason Terry as their second scorer, an over-the-hill Jason Kidd, an injury-plagued Tyson Chandler and some midget from Puerto Rico that nobody had heard of... The point is, the guy knows how to maximize the talent he's given.

Avery Johnson won Coach of the Year before getting schooled in the Finals by three-time Coach of the Year, Pat Riley. He then went on to take credit for Dirk's MVP Award shortly before he led the Mavs to an embarrassing 1st Round exit because he decided to play down to his competition by benching his starting center. He happily drew paychecks from Cuban for a couple years and then landed a second chance coaching the bottom-feeding Nets to awful results.


Simple Maths

Dwight + Deron = 2

Dwight + Deron + Dirk = 3

3 > 2

I probably should prep and get my 3D glasses.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Underdog

So Dallas and New Jersey are the only teams in the running to get both Dwight AND Deron, and from what I can tell, the money is about the same in either city (give or take a couple drops in the bucket...)

So it really boils down to winning rings:


Ownership

Mark Cuban is an owner who has kept the Mavs competitive throughout Dirk's entire career and just won a championship with a supporting cast that included a streaky Jason Terry as their second scorer, an over-the-hill Jason Kidd, an injury-plagued Tyson Chandler and some midget from Puerto Rico that nobody had heard of... The point is, the guy knows how to put together a winning team.

Mikhail Prokhorov is busy running for President of Russia, has attended zero Nets games this season and has only met Deron Williams three times since he traded for him (and ol' Deron doesn't sound too happy about that...)


Coaching

Rick Carlisle just won a championship with a supporting cast that included a streaky Jason Terry as their second scorer, an over-the-hill Jason Kidd, an injury-plagued Tyson Chandler and some midget from Puerto Rico that nobody had heard of... The point is, the guy knows how to maximize the talent he's given.

Avery Johnson won Coach of the Year before getting schooled in the Finals by three-time Coach of the Year, Pat Riley. He then went on to take credit for Dirk's MVP Award shortly before he led the Mavs to an embarrassing 1st Round exit because he decided to play down to his competition by benching his starting center. He happily drew paychecks from Cuban for a couple years and then landed a second chance coaching the bottom-feeding Nets to awful results.


Simple Maths

Dwight + Deron = 2

Dwight + Deron + Dirk = 3

3 > 2

Proven versus Unproven in terms of ownership. I see a bit of Cuban in the Russian guy, but not being around, works against them. Also comparable to the Mavs putting up AAC, then having Cuban take over, same happened with the Nets, putting up Barclay, then the Russian guys takes over. If they can find their Dirk, they can build something, but the Russian guy has to be around and trusting Avery, King........

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Originally Posted by Underdog

So Dallas and New Jersey are the only teams in the running to get both Dwight AND Deron, and from what I can tell, the money is about the same in either city (give or take a couple drops in the bucket...)

So it really boils down to winning rings:


Ownership

Mark Cuban is an owner who has kept the Mavs competitive throughout Dirk's entire career and just won a championship with a supporting cast that included a streaky Jason Terry as their second scorer, an over-the-hill Jason Kidd, an injury-plagued Tyson Chandler and some midget from Puerto Rico that nobody had heard of... The point is, the guy knows how to put together a winning team.

Mikhail Prokhorov is busy running for President of Russia, has attended zero Nets games this season and has only met Deron Williams three times since he traded for him (and ol' Deron doesn't sound too happy about that...)


Coaching

Rick Carlisle just won a championship with a supporting cast that included a streaky Jason Terry as their second scorer, an over-the-hill Jason Kidd, an injury-plagued Tyson Chandler and some midget from Puerto Rico that nobody had heard of... The point is, the guy knows how to maximize the talent he's given.

Avery Johnson won Coach of the Year before getting schooled in the Finals by three-time Coach of the Year, Pat Riley. He then went on to take credit for Dirk's MVP Award shortly before he led the Mavs to an embarrassing 1st Round exit because he decided to play down to his competition by benching his starting center. He happily drew paychecks from Cuban for a couple years and then landed a second chance coaching the bottom-feeding Nets to awful results.


Simple Maths

Dwight + Deron = 2

Dwight + Deron + Dirk = 3

3 > 2

JJ is not a midget. He is vertically challenged.


It makes the most sense to have the three D's in Dallas. Whether or not it happens is up to Williams and Howard. You know Cuban is all in. It sounds like Kidd is all in. Dirk is all in. Avery Johnson knows the Mavs are all in.

I will miss Marion and Haywood, but I would get rid of them in a heartbeat to have Dirks last couple years of his prime overlap with the beginning of Deron Williams and Dwight Howard's prime. That could make us the San Antonio of this decade. We would be well coached and always mentioned as a favorite to take it all every year for the next decade. We have already been great for the last decade. This could give our franchise a 20 year reign as a legit team every year. Take away this shortened season, and we could have a streak of almost 20 years in a row of 50+ wins. Time would only tell if we get more than one ring.

[xrobx]

We just flushed the pipe dream completely down the toilet tonight with one game. It was a fun thought though.