Lost: The Final Season - Page 23 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

XERXES · 05-12-2010, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I also didn't mind the "wheel" conversation at all. Sure, it was weak as far as exposition, but 98% of this show is weak in exposition. If that bothers you, I'm surprised you made it through almost 6 full seasons of this.

I think most of us held on through years of weak exposition bc we felt like we had the proverbial carrot of concrete and detailed answers waiting for us at the end. I feel like the producers ate my carrot.

ShaggyDirk · 05-12-2010, 08:23 AM

total letdown... corny at best.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-12-2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Wanting to know his name is like wanting to know what was inside Marcellus Wallace's briefcase in Pulp Fiction.

Glad you mentioned this. The "White Light Water Hole" has now replaced Wallace's briefcase as the biggest MacGuffin in film/TV history.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-12-2010, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Oh, and I also dispute that they didn't answer any questions. They answered tons of questions, just maybe not the ones some folks had in mind:

1) How did Jacob and MiB get to the island?

2) What's their relationship? (we didn't know for sure they were brothers until today)

3) Was MiB always the smoke monster, or did he somehow become it after he got to the island?

4) Is there some specific reason why this island needs "protecting" by someone like Jacob?

5) If the candidates are candidates to replace Jacob, was there someone before Jacob in that role? Who?

6) Why can't Jacob and MiB kill each other? What's the source of that "rule"?

7) Does the smoke monster take on some characteristics/memories of its host body? (clearly the answer is yes, since MiB/smokey quoted "mother" word for word when he and Jacob were watching the Black Rock come in, and he has previously referred to the fact that he used to be a "normal man")?

8) What did MiB/smokey mean when he accused Jacob of "taking his body"?

We got answers to all of those questions and several more, even if some of the answers were open-ended or implicit.

Ok, let me say that they didn't answer anything important (in my mind) or as you said the answers were open-ended and ambiguous... but even worse, in answering the questions, they raised even MORE questions (see CadBane's post for a pretty good rundown). And having the "mother" say "asking questions just leads to more questions" is 100% a cop-out.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-12-2010, 09:12 AM

The producers have been quoted as saying that the "adam and eve" reveal would show that they had planned this from the beginning.

I say that's horse-shit. They could easily write their way to ANY conclusion where a man/woman end up dead in the cave.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-12-2010, 09:13 AM

And yes, longhorn, i agree they have 3-4 hours left. We all understand that.

Hopefully it's enough time to redeem themselves...

i like this theory (got this from another board):

Quote:

It's also possible that this was all misdirection and that Jacob's brother is not Smokey. In that case, Jacob's brother is dead, and Smokey manipulated Jacob's brother the entire time.

In this scenario it was Smokey that appeared to Jacob's brother as his mother, setting him on the path of abandoning his destined role as protector. And it was Smokey that wiped out the village, so the brother would kill the current protector in revenge. It's unclear whether or not Jacob knew the true nature of the thing that manifested to him as his dead brother.

In that case, it's Smokey who is the true villain of the show. He is a malevolent force that wants to sow chaos and death throughout the world, but is trapped on the island. The motives are the same, but the reasons and methods are different.

This would explain how all the men in the village were killed and the well was filled in in such a relatively short period.

And let me also say that i am NOT someone who believes that an unsatisfactory conclusion invalidates the previous 5 seasons. I still enjoyed those episodes, and the acting has been top notch (well, besides last night's.

everybody sucked except for MiB ). it will be disappointing if the conclusion sucks, but i won't feel like i wasted 6 years of my life.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-12-2010, 10:09 AM

HA HA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8JBYlNTf-Q

sike · 05-12-2010, 10:19 AM

Glad to hear most of y'all were initially disappointed as well...I hated that Jacob seemed almost metally retarded. I know they were trying to convey innocence, but it came off as stupidity. I also felt that Alison Janney gave a pretty weak showing...especially for someone I have always considered a good actress.

Upon reflection, I like him not having a name...and they better not give him one now!

Longhorn calmed me down a bit with his positive and thoughtful comments.

All in all it was a weak episode...with unexplainably weak acting and some what empty story telling...when it should have been a crowning jewel of the series's myth!

sike · 05-12-2010, 10:19 AM

Glad to hear most of y'all were initially disappointed as well...I hated that Jacob seemed almost metally retarded. I know they were trying to convey innocence, but it came off as stupidity. I also felt that Alison Janney gave a pretty weak showing...especially for someone I have always considered a good actress.

Upon reflection, I like him not having a name...and they better not give him one now!

Longhorn calmed me down a bit with his positive and thoughtful comments.

All in all it was a weak episode...with unexplainably weak acting and some what empty story telling...when it should have been a crowning jewel of the series's myth!

Flacolaco · 05-12-2010, 10:22 AM

I've been wondering the reason for finding candidates (i.e. What the entire show is about, because clearly these people were brought here to replace him) and now it seems as though the reason is that he never wanted to do this job in the first place (the highly ambiguous job), that he just wanted to get out of it.

That's what they gave us last night. All of it has been because this whiny momma's boy wanted out.

If they had clarified this "light" and been a little more explanatory in that regard, I could see caring about that and naming that what this is all about, but I can't. Too vague. They didn't give me a sense that anything is at stake here. That's what I really wanted from this episode, and I didn't get it. I don't give a crap about the guy's name. I want to know why. I want to know what's at stake and what the big picture is.

Flacolaco · 05-12-2010, 10:30 AM

One thing that occurred to me later is that these Stephen King fans, Lindelof and Cuse, may have in mind that "the light" is like The Rose on this level of The Tower, do ya ken? (Which only two of you will I think, so don't worry about this post if you don't).

That at least would make some kind of sense to me.

Flacolaco · 05-12-2010, 10:51 AM

"If the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere."

I gotta tell you, Allison Janney, that means nothing to me because I don't really get what it is. And if that's all we have to be concerned about, then why should anyone care if smokey leaves?

I bet the story of what happened between the very end of last night's episode and the next chronological appearance of the MIB would be infinitely more interesting. Watching Jacob learn that the smoke monster is his brother (I guess, not really sure about that) and the genesis of their little game of bringing people to the island would be so much more educational.

nikeball · 05-12-2010, 11:20 AM

mom = smoke monster

and she manipulated jacob into making MIB her replacement
Jacob and MIB's "mother" spent the whole episode building up to her replacement. We're lead to think she has chosen Jacob to replace her duties of protecting the island. But what if she actually chose MIB to replace her job as...wait for it...THE SMOKE MONSTER! The whole episode is about her manipulation on Jacob that eventually leads him to throw his brother into the light which turns him into the new smoke monster.

She left the game on the beach to start a rivalry between the two boys. She used her "smokey" powers to appear as MIB's real mother and guide him to the others. She saw that MIB had all the qualities to be the evil smoke monster (able to lie.. etc.). What kind of woman beats a pregnant woman with a rock and steals her babies? an evil woman! a smoke monster! How did she ruin the camp and destroy the well in such a short amount of time...well, if she turned into smokey then poof! easy! She told Jacob the light was a fate worse than death. hmm..sounds like she knows from experience! She knew MIB would kill her, so she showed Jacob exactly how to get his revenge on MIB, throw him into the light! Which made MIB her replacement, which was the plan all along! Jacob was only a pawn! And just like the surprise dagger in the back ultimately killed her, you may recall Dogen giving Sayid the dagger to go kill fake locke, but he didn't manage to catch him off guard."

XERXES · 05-12-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

HA HA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8JBYlNTf-Q

that was great.

Maringa · 05-12-2010, 11:21 AM

One question that I have...

Jacob has special powers, but didn't display them in this episode. As others have said, his mental/emotional abilities don't jive with the current day Jacob. I wonder if something has happened to Jacob after this episode?

sike · 05-12-2010, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I bet the story of what happened between the very end of last night's episode and the next chronological appearance of the MIB would be infinitely more interesting. Watching Jacob learn that the smoke monster is his brother (I guess, not really sure about that) and the genesis of their little game of bringing people to the island would be so much more educational.

Do you think we'll get any more Jacob/MIB's back story? I agree that should be fascinating.

Things I think are interesting...

Smokey is more like "mother" in philosophy about mankind...and Jacob is a stark contrast to mother's thoughts about mankind. That seems important.

Also interesting, MIB was mother's choice to replace her, because he is "special"...special like Walt?

LonghornDub · 05-12-2010, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

"If the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere."

I gotta tell you, Allison Janney, that means nothing to me because I don't really get what it is. And if that's all we have to be concerned about, then why should anyone care if smokey leaves?

Did you read my post on the previous page?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xerxes

I think most of us held on through years of weak exposition bc we felt like we had the proverbial carrot of concrete and detailed answers waiting for us at the end. I feel like the producers ate my carrot.

I think this may have been a fair hope when the show seemed to be taking a decidedly sci-fi tilt, but as soon as it started going all mythological and good vs. evil, I think you sorta have to accept that many key answers are going to be open-ended, and that each answer is just going to lead to new questions. I'm sure there will be some more points of clarification before the end, but I really believe anyone who's expecting concrete and detailed answers on every "core" question is going to be disappointed.

LonghornDub · 05-12-2010, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikeball

And just like the surprise dagger in the back ultimately killed her, you may recall Dogen giving Sayid the dagger to go kill fake locke, but he didn't manage to catch him off guard."

MiB also gave that same dagger to Richard to get him to kill Jacob, so I don't think this indicates that she's the smoke monster and not the previous island protector.

sike · 05-12-2010, 11:51 AM

Also, I find it VERY interesting that they are biological twins. It doesn't mean anything probably...but it is still very cool. Very Cain and Able/Jacob and Easu.

And whats all this garbage about "I've made it so you can't hurt each other"...uhhhh, they beat the snot out of each other in this episode. (Or does only Jacob beat MIB...can't remember...but I know there are a couple fights between them).

If it turns out that "Mother" was also some kind of Smoke Monster...I would be very happy. It does seem to be about the only way she could have wiped out that camp and busted up the well.

sike · 05-12-2010, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I really believe anyone who's expecting concrete and detailed answers on every "core" question is going to be disappointed.

I don't care about many questions...but, like flac, I do want a clearer pic of what has happened in the past and what the significance of the island is to the rest of the world.

They've clearly stated that the island is centrally significant to the existence of the world, but it still needs further explanation as to why/how that is the case.

sike · 05-12-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

MiB also gave that same dagger to Richard to get him to kill Jacob, so I don't think this indicates that she's the smoke monster and not the previous island protector.

honestly, I see no reason why she couldn't have been both protector and a type of smoke monster.

LonghornDub · 05-12-2010, 12:00 PM

I thought there was some great tension between the Mother clearly identifying more with the dark brother, but Jacob being the one who was willing to stay by her side. I also thought the way Jacob was portrayed as sort of a simpleton momma's boy was brilliant. We know once he got "older" he was this all-knowing, calculating, intelligent man, but I thought it was very interesting to see that he wasn't always like that. Early on, he was just an emotionally stunted guy who mostly did what his mother told him to do. And his brother, meanwhile, was an emotionally stunted guy who developed an obsession for leaving the only place that he had ever called home.

It makes sense to me--if I grew up on an island with only 2 other people, and one of them was a parent who constantly hid stuff from me and had mysteriously underlying motives, I'd be pretty stunted too.

bobbyfg7 · 05-12-2010, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikeball

mom = smoke monster

and she manipulated jacob into making MIB her replacement
Jacob and MIB's "mother" spent the whole episode building up to her replacement. We're lead to think she has chosen Jacob to replace her duties of protecting the island. But what if she actually chose MIB to replace her job as...wait for it...THE SMOKE MONSTER! The whole episode is about her manipulation on Jacob that eventually leads him to throw his brother into the light which turns him into the new smoke monster.

She left the game on the beach to start a rivalry between the two boys. She used her "smokey" powers to appear as MIB's real mother and guide him to the others. She saw that MIB had all the qualities to be the evil smoke monster (able to lie.. etc.). What kind of woman beats a pregnant woman with a rock and steals her babies? an evil woman! a smoke monster! How did she ruin the camp and destroy the well in such a short amount of time...well, if she turned into smokey then poof! easy! She told Jacob the light was a fate worse than death. hmm..sounds like she knows from experience! She knew MIB would kill her, so she showed Jacob exactly how to get his revenge on MIB, throw him into the light! Which made MIB her replacement, which was the plan all along! Jacob was only a pawn! And just like the surprise dagger in the back ultimately killed her, you may recall Dogen giving Sayid the dagger to go kill fake locke, but he didn't manage to catch him off guard."

Yes. I thought after this episode that they tried to indicate to us that the story is about Smokey and always has been. Not Jacob. But still, a disappointing episode.

LonghornDub · 05-12-2010, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

honestly, I see no reason why she couldn't have been both protector and a type of smoke monster.

It's definitely possible, but it's also somewhat incongruent with my theory of how the light is carried with the smoke monster (and that's why it's not in the cave anymore). So I personally am somewhat skeptical.

I think another explanation is that the island's protector has certain powers that would allow him/her to do something violent like that. The reason we haven't seen such a thing from Jacob is that Jacob isn't like his "mother." He believes in the inherent goodness of people.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-12-2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I don't care about many questions...but, like flac, I do want a clearer pic of what has happened in the past and what the significance of the island is to the rest of the world.

I agree - in the case of last night (and the show in general), it wasn't that i had a list of questions i needed answered. heck, i don't need ANY specific questions answered. But the frustration was that they came up with ridiculous explanations for things that only raised more questions.

I would rather just not know what kind of underwear a girl is wearing than find out they are ridiculously ugly granny panties.

sike · 05-12-2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I also thought the way Jacob was portrayed as sort of a simpleton momma's boy was brilliant. We know once he got "older" he was this all-knowing, calculating, intelligent man, but I thought it was very interesting to see that he wasn't always like that.

read somewhere that the first scene takes place in 23AD...so yeah, Jacob had some time to grow up.

Flacolaco · 05-12-2010, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Did you read my post on the previous page?

I read it, and I think it's a fine theory...if this were season 2. Or 4.

It's not time for this anymore. It's the very, very end. The book has only one little chapter left. I need to watch it again to see if the light did "go out." Even if it did, it was not demonstrative enough for a network television show. The fact that we're having this conversation, and that it's just a theory proves that. It's not time for this crap any more.

If that's the way it is, then they should have said so. I don't need the specific questions answered, as we keep saying...I just want the general gist of WTF is going on.

This is the equivalent of getting to the very end of the LOTR and still not being sure if they need to throw the ring in the fire, or use it, or if Frodo's the good guy, or what...

sike · 05-12-2010, 12:27 PM

interesting that both Hurley and MIB were/able to see dead people...

LonghornDub · 05-12-2010, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I read it, and I think it's a fine theory...if this were season 2. Or 4.

It's not time for this anymore. It's the very, very end. The book has only one little chapter left. I need to watch it again to see if the light did "go out." Even if it did, it was not demonstrative enough for a network television show. The fact that we're having this conversation, and that it's just a theory proves that. It's not time for this crap any more.

If that's the way it is, then they should have said so. I don't need the specific questions answered, as we keep saying...I just want the general gist of WTF is going on.

This is the equivalent of getting to the very end of the LOTR and still not being sure if they need to throw the ring in the fire, or use it, or if Frodo's the good guy, or what...

It just seems like people are expecting the show to suddenly change because we're at the end. This has always been a show (unlike LOTR) that's about vague explanations, loosely implied answers, etc. I guess maybe I have a high tolerance for that, especially considering where the bar was set early. I never expected it to change much just because this is the end. All I expect is some resolution, even if it's open-ended.

sike · 05-12-2010, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

All I expect is some resolution, even if it's open-ended.

I want to punch you in your patient face.

LonghornDub · 05-12-2010, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I want to punch you in your patient face.

Haha, I'm sorry. If it makes you feel better, I do think a few (but not all) of the new questions raised by this episode will be answered some way another in the final 3.5 hours.

Flacolaco · 05-12-2010, 12:52 PM

I guess we should consider that the "light" cave will come into play in the finale. Somehow.

sike · 05-12-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I do think a few (but not all) of the new questions raised by this episode will be answered some way another in the final 3.5 hours.

Agreed.

XERXES · 05-12-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

I would rather just not know what kind of underwear a girl is wearing than find out they are ridiculously ugly granny panties.

Amen.

u2sarajevo · 05-12-2010, 01:20 PM

Locke: "I looked into the eye of the Island and what I saw was beautiful".

LonghornDub · 05-12-2010, 01:22 PM

I think you should all watch it again and see if you like it any better.

XERXES · 05-12-2010, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I think you should all watch it again and see if you like it any better.

you know thats not bad advice at all. im gonna head to the gym after work. i may download it from itunes first so i can re-evaluate it while i get my workout on...

u2sarajevo · 05-12-2010, 01:25 PM

If there were ever any doubt I think now we know for sure the star of this show isn't a character... it's the Island itself.

I watched again at lunch today and think this episode was just fantastic. Really well done.

LonghornDub · 05-12-2010, 01:38 PM

I just finished watching it again. That moment where Jacob initially rejects the protector role is powerful. He ends up acquiescing because he loves his "mother," but initially he's so distraught that she's always seemed to love brother more, he wants nothing to do with it.

I also came to the conclusion that throwing MiB into the light must have created the smoke monster using MiB's "essence," rather than smoke monster already existing and MiB was just another host body. That's the best way to explain why smokey still wants to get off the island even though he's now in Locke's body.

sike · 05-12-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I also came to the conclusion that throwing MiB into the light must have created the smoke monster using MiB's "essence," rather than smoke monster already existing and MiB was just another host body. That's the best way to explain why smokey still wants to get off the island even though he's now in Locke's body.

The more I think about it, the more I think mother was a type of smokey. She seemed to really know what she meant when said that going into the light was a fate worse than death...and when death finally came for her from the blade of her favorite son...she was thankful.

then again, can you kill a smokey by stabbing her in the back??? *sigh* (Maybe if you're special you can?)