Official offseason 2013-2014 thread - Page 24 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

grndmstr_c · 05-15-2013, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yahyes

Since he'll be in the draft war room. Wonder if he's going to push for a power forward to mentor. Kelly Olynyk or Ryan Kelly.

That is absolutely the last thing I would expect him to advocate for.

clutch#41 · 05-15-2013, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yahyes

Since he'll be in the draft war room. Wonder if he's going to push for a power forward to mentor. Kelly Olynyk or Ryan Kelly.

hopefully he'll say trade up and get oladipo or burke!

EricaLubarsky · 05-15-2013, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yahyes

Since he'll be in the draft war room. Wonder if he's going to push for a power forward to mentor. Kelly Olynyk or Ryan Kelly.

While that may not be the worst thing for us to do, it would feel like a slap to the face for us fans, because it would send a strong (probably unintentional) message to fans that the Dirk years are over.

Bayliss · 05-15-2013, 06:57 PM

Well.... Dirk cant be any worse at drafting than Donnie. After all.... PPOD... Fazekas........ Ager.... the list goes on......

sefant77 · 05-15-2013, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yahyes

Since he'll be in the draft war room. Wonder if he's going to push for a power forward to mentor. Kelly Olynyk or Ryan Kelly.

Quote:

We want to get back to the playoffs and be a factor

Sure, he want to get back to the playoffs so he will push to use the lottery pick on a PF to mentor

clutch#41 · 05-15-2013, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Well.... Dirk cant be any worse at drafting than Donnie. After all.... PPOD... Fazekas........ Ager.... the list goes on......

Fazekas is still a possibility

EricaLubarsky · 05-15-2013, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Well.... Dirk cant be any worse at drafting than Donnie. After all.... PPOD... Fazekas........ Ager.... the list goes on......

I'm not sure you you are serious. Your statement is just so full of WTF that my brain is spinning.

We traded Linus "I wouldn't be playing if Toronto wasn't desperate for players" Kleiza for Podkolzine. I mean, I know Sergei Monia was still on the table at that spot, but dude only played 9 more games than PPod before dropping out of the league.

I'm not sure who else you would have drafted with the 28th pick in 2006 that would have been better, either. Mardy Collins? Joel Freeland? James White? Solomon Jones? Haven't heard of them? Probably because there wasn't much talent on the table at the very bottom of the first in a terrible draft.

Also tell me who else would have been better to draft with the 34th overall pick in 2007. Do tell. Of the 26 draft picks after Fazekas, only 2 were still in the league only 3 years later.

Bayliss · 05-15-2013, 08:36 PM

It isn't who they should have drafted... it is who they drafted. I'm not doing a what if. I'm looking at evidence. And Donnie or Cuban have been terrible at drafting.

Circumstances can change players... so looking at the draft and saying no one stuck.... that has more to do with fit. Even Chandler Parsons may not have became anything had he not gone to Houston who basically had no definite starters. Same reason why Kings players don't perform.... they have like ten Pfs every draft.

The Mavs have sucked at drafting. And even when they stash people... they never come. They have stashed Calathas... seabutt.... pg from Portland... and several others....

DevinHarriswillstart · 05-15-2013, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I'm not sure you you are serious. Your statement is just so full of WTF that my brain is spinning.

We traded Linus "I wouldn't be playing if Toronto wasn't desperate for players" Kleiza for Podkolzine. I mean, I know Sergei Monia was still on the table at that spot, but dude only played 9 more games than PPod before dropping out of the league.

I'm not sure who else you would have drafted with the 28th pick in 2006 that would have been better, either. Mardy Collins? Joel Freeland? James White? Solomon Jones? Haven't heard of them? Probably because there wasn't much talent on the table at the very bottom of the first in a terrible draft.

Also tell me who else would have been better to draft with the 34th overall pick in 2007. Do tell. Of the 26 draft picks after Fazekas, only 2 were still in the league only 3 years later.

Big Baby Davis was picked right after we chose Fazekas. You know you remember that since you and I backed the Fazekas decision. Ugh Fazekas...whyyyyyyy?

yahyes · 05-15-2013, 11:37 PM

I wouldn't think it's a slap in the face. But we shall see how these 2 draft picks go.

Also, can anyone see Kevin Martin be our starting SG here? Just asking for opinion now that he's going to be free this summer.

grndmstr_c · 05-16-2013, 12:32 AM

There should be a rule against bringing up Ager when criticizing Dallas' draft performance. Fazekas, absolutely. Pavel, okay, I guess. Heck, even milkface over Iggy (which, for some reason nobody ever brings up). But you really can't conclude anything about how well a team drafts from picks that they make when there's hardly even any nbadl talent on the board.

At any rate, Dallas' drafting record since Carlisle got here may not be perfect (DoJo), but it's not horrible, either. If you're that pessimistic about what they'll end up doing, you're just looking for reasons to be unhappy.

grndmstr_c · 05-16-2013, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yahyes

I wouldn't think it's a slap in the face. But we shall see how these 2 draft picks go.

Also, can anyone see Kevin Martin be our starting SG here? Just asking for opinion now that he's going to be free this summer.

I wouldn't be upset with Kevin, but is the bidding really likely to get to a point where OKC wouldn't match? I assume he'll want to stay with the Thunder and make up for this year's disappointment as long as the feeling is mutual, which I sort of expect it will be.

Eman · 05-16-2013, 08:26 AM

Four representatives from Dallas, including Donnie Nelson who was present in Euroleague’s Final Four in London, have traveled to Croatia in order to see once more live once more Dario Saric who is expected to be picked in this NBA draft

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

It isn't who they should have drafted... it is who they drafted
The Mavs have sucked at drafting.

Well you are wrong. The Mavs produce more serviceable players than average. The reason they don't have more starters/stars is because they've only had a handful of first rounders (5) in 11 years and a lot of mid-to-late second rounders.

Dirk's Knee · 05-16-2013, 09:41 AM

I think the Mavs draft criticisms are 2 fold:

1. With the exception of last year, their recent picks have been busts not even really earning consistent backup minutes.

2. The Mavs FO has been too eager to trade away picks rather than try to trade up and get more solid prospects.

Of the 2 points, I think the later is the more valid criticism. While I do agree the Mavs don't seem to have very good scouts (which may be a prime driver of the second point), really the Mavs player trade/FA heavy FO philosophy is what irks me. Consider the 2009 draft, was there no way they could've traded up into the top 20? I realize hindsight is 20/20 but dang that draft looks strong in retrospect.

Who ever they pick this year, I have faith they will get value out of. My bet is they'll go for a guard.

oilfieldtrash · 05-16-2013, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Well you are wrong. The Mavs produce more serviceable players than average. The reason they don't have more starters/stars is because they've only had a handful of first rounders (5) in 11 years and a lot of mid-to-late second rounders.

San Antonio disagrees.

No excuses for not drafting a rotation player since Josh Howard. Roddy or Dojo doesn't count.

Dirk's Knee · 05-16-2013, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

San Antonio disagrees.

No excuses for not drafting a rotation player since Josh Howard. Roddy or Dojo doesn't count.

Thought I'd take a look at SA's draft history. Holy crap! I knew they've done well but not this well. I have no idea how San Antonio does it, but they clearly beat the odds more often than not:

Manu Ginobili 1999 57th pick
Tony Parker 2001 28th pick
Louis Scola 2002 55th pick
Leandro Barbosa 2003 28th pick
Tiago Splitter 2007 28th pick
Goran Dragic 2008 45th pick
George Hill 2008 26th pick
DeJuan Blair 2009 37th pick

They've had some busts as well, but damn do they draft well. Let's look at Dallas by comparison (tried to include picks via trade but sure I've missed a few around the 2K mark):

Wang Zhizhi 1999 36th pick
Picks traded in 2000, 2001
Mladen Sekularac in 2002 54th, never played in the NBA
Josh Howard 2003 29th
Devin Harris 2004 5th pick via trade
JJ Barea 2006 (undrafted)
Roddy B 2009 24th via trade
Dominique Jones 2010 25th (via trade)
Pick traded 2011
Crowder/Sarge/Cunningham 2012 17th (traded down)

dude1394 · 05-16-2013, 10:55 AM

Ouch...that definitely leaves a mark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

Thought I'd take a look at SA's draft history. Holy crap! I knew they've done well but not this well. I have no idea how San Antonio does it, but they clearly beat the odds more often than not:

Manu Ginobili 1999 57th pick
Tony Parker 2001 28th pick
Louis Scola 2002 55th pick
Leandro Barbosa 2003 28th pick
Tiago Splitter 2007 28th pick
Goran Dragic 2008 45th pick
George Hill 2008 26th pick
DeJuan Blair 2009 37th pick

They've had some busts as well, but damn do they draft well. Let's look at Dallas by comparison (tried to include picks via trade but sure I've missed a few around the 2K mark):

Wang Zhizhi 1999 36th pick
Picks traded in 2000, 2001
Mladen Sekularac in 2002 54th, never played in the NBA
Josh Howard 2003 29th
Devin Harris 2004 5th pick via trade
JJ Barea 2006 (undrafted)
Roddy B 2009 24th via trade
Dominique Jones 2010 25th (via trade)
Pick traded 2011
Crowder/Sarge/Cunningham 2012 17th (traded down)

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

I think the Mavs draft criticisms are 2 fold:

1. With the exception of last year, their recent picks have been busts not even really earning consistent backup minutes.

2. The Mavs FO has been too eager to trade away picks rather than try to trade up and get more solid prospects.

Of the 2 points, I think the later is the more valid criticism. While I do agree the Mavs don't seem to have very good scouts (which may be a prime driver of the second point), really the Mavs player trade/FA heavy FO philosophy is what irks me. Consider the 2009 draft, was there no way they could've traded up into the top 20? I realize hindsight is 20/20 but dang that draft looks strong in retrospect.

Who ever they pick this year, I have faith they will get value out of. My bet is they'll go for a guard.

1) I admit we havent had many stars, but with 5 first rounders with an average position of 25th, I'm not sure how you can expect much better than they did. It's not that they do well, but they are above average statistically compared to where they draft.

2) I'm not sure there is any justification to back the idea that they were offered a trade of a lottery pick and refused. Do you have any examples? It seems likely that during their winning years, they'd be less likely to trade away a guy that is producing for a pick that may take a couple of years, but I don't recall any trade that was floated and we declined.

3) San Antonio is the only reason there are any real starters or star at all at the bottom of the 1st and middle of the 2nd. If we could have their system and their talent scouts, I'd be very happy being the best drafting team in the league. As it is, we are merely above average statistically.

Dirk's Knee · 05-16-2013, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

1) I admit we havent had many stars, but with 5 first rounders with an average position of 25th, I'm not sure how you can expect much better than they did. It's not that they do well, but they are above average statistically compared to where they draft.

2) I'm not sure there is any justification to back the idea that they were offered a trade of a lottery pick and refused. Do you have any examples? It seems likely that during their winning years, they'd be less likely to trade away a guy that is producing for a pick that may take a couple of years, but I don't recall any trade that was floated and we declined.

3) San Antonio is the only reason there are any real starters or star at all at the bottom of the 1st and middle of the 2nd. If we could have their system and their talent scouts, I'd be very happy being the best drafting team in the league. As it is, we are merely above average statistically.

Regarding number 2, take a look at how many 1 round picks they traded away. Not the player but actually trading future picks. Now in many of these years they were able to create another trade to get a rookie prospect and I'm sure some of the picks were traded for some valid talent but, still. Cuban has been on record stating he thought picks were pretty worthless and that if he wanted one he'd just buy one. These are the years in which Dallas had no first round pick: 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2010. Clearly shows a FO philosophy that doesn't place much value in the draft.

Regarding number 3, don't you think a huge part of their draft success is taking the draft very seriously and a coach whose willing to play rookies consistent minutes? SA doesn't give up their 1st round pick very often at all, only 4 times since '99 vs 7 for Dallas. I realize SAS is more the exception than rule, but to say teams can't find quality players late or that we do about average in the draft is really the point. The goal should be to be better than average. And to consistently be average points to flaws in the FO scouting/drafting abilities which need to be addressed.

jthig32 · 05-16-2013, 11:59 AM

The Mavs' draft history is neither great nor terrible. Is is unremarkable, for sure. If you take just their draft picks, I'd classify it as below average, even given their drafting position. If you include Barea and Marquis (undrafted) it shifts up a bit in my eyes.

Our proximity to and rivalry with San Antonio creates the need to compare our drafting abilities. But the reality is that comparing San Antonio's drafting ability with any other NBA team will cause the same issues people are having in this thread.

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

The Mavs' draft history is neither great nor terrible. Is is unremarkable, for sure. If you take just their draft picks, I'd classify it as below average, even given their drafting position. If you include Barea and Marquis (undrafted) it shifts up a bit in my eyes.

Our proximity to and rivalry with San Antonio creates the need to compare our drafting abilities. But the reality is that comparing San Antonio's drafting ability with any other NBA team will cause the same issues people are having in this thread.

W're all doomed compared to San Antonio. They are just so good at analyzing, developing an incorporating talent, that the other 29 other teams are not even on the same level. Statistically, we are top 10 in the league at drafting if you look at players we drafted and kept, but the difference between 1st and second place is enormous.

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

Regarding number 2, take a look at how many 1 round picks they traded away. Not the player but actually trading future picks. Now in many of these years they were able to create another trade to get a rookie prospect and I'm sure some of the picks were traded for some valid talent but, still. Cuban has been on record stating he thought picks were pretty worthless and that if he wanted one he'd just buy one. These are the years in which Dallas had no first round pick: 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2010. Clearly shows a FO philosophy that doesn't place much value in the draft.

Regarding number 3, don't you think a huge part of their draft success is taking the draft very seriously and a coach whose willing to play rookies consistent minutes? SA doesn't give up their 1st round pick very often at all, only 4 times since '99 vs 7 for Dallas. I realize SAS is more the exception than rule, but to say teams can't find quality players late or that we do about average in the draft is really the point. The goal should be to be better than average. And to consistently be average points to flaws in the FO scouting/drafting abilities which need to be addressed.

I'd still like you to look at the picks we traded away. Even in hindsight and the knowledge that there are a couple of break-out players that made it despite limitation (Big Baby is one), it's still startling how little talent there was after us in those drafts. In 2011, we traded Hamilton away, but Hamilton has been disappointing so far, had a bad reputation for being a team player and looking at the rest of the draft is underwhelming to say it gently.

Keeping picks should not be a measure for ability to draft well, and I'd even argue that trading away a flop when the rest of the draft is weak is actually a sign of good talent analysis. Hamilton was disappointing, but it was the right move in that draft. If we don't like anyone in the late first round, why give them a three year guaranteed contract? Getting a top 10 pick in the second round for guys with potential is also harder than you'd think.

If you have superhuman scouting abilities to spot potential, then you take that longshot and hope it works, but for our merely mortal scouting team, we see guys who have a very low potential of success and pass on them and so far none have turned out to be the starters/stars that you seem to imply they could have been. If you know the next card in the deck is an ace, you always draw. If you're at 16 and the next card is more likely to be a 6-K than an A-5, then you pass. It's about risk/reward on what is essentially a gamble.

Dirk's Knee · 05-16-2013, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

The Mavs' draft history is neither great nor terrible. Is is unremarkable, for sure. If you take just their draft picks, I'd classify it as below average, even given their drafting position. If you include Barea and Marquis (undrafted) it shifts up a bit in my eyes.

Our proximity to and rivalry with San Antonio creates the need to compare our drafting abilities. But the reality is that comparing San Antonio's drafting ability with any other NBA team will cause the same issues people are having in this thread.

So who do you want to compare to? I took a look at several other teams as well and every one I looked at was able to score at least 1 to 2 rotation players at spots lower than Dallas, a few found stars very late.

Knicks got David Lee at 30th in 2005
Lakers got Marc Gasol (then traded him) at 48th in 2007
Celtics Tony Allen 25th in 2004
Chicago via Portland Omer Asik 36th in 2008 (traded) and Jimmy Butler 30th in 2011
GS got Monte Ellis 40th in 2005

None of them have given up 1st rounders nearly as often as Dallas. One can make the argument that Dallas has done "about average", but it just seems like so many teams have hit in at least one year with a late 1st rounder and we've had significant trouble doing so. I don't expect Dallas to hit every year, and maybe it's just been luck with these teams, but we've been in a pretty bad drought concerning the draft. Perhaps last years picks will pan out, but really the only teams doing consistently worse than the Mavs in the draft are the dregs of the league...

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I'd still like you to look at the picks we traded away. Even in hindsight and the knowledge that there are a couple of break-out players that made it despite limitation (Big Baby is one), it's still startling how little talent there was after us in those drafts. In 2011, we traded Hamilton away, but Hamilton has been disappointing so far, had a bad reputation for being a team player and looking at the rest of the draft is underwhelming to say it gently.

Keeping picks should not be a measure for ability to draft well, and I'd even argue that trading away a flop when the rest of the draft is weak is actually a sign of good talent analysis. Hamilton was disappointing, but it was the right move in that draft. If we don't like anyone in the late first round, why give them a three year guaranteed contract? Getting a top 10 pick in the second round for guys with potential is also harder than you'd think.

If you have superhuman scouting abilities to spot potential, then you take that longshot and hope it works, but for our merely mortal scouting team, we see guys who have a very low potential of success and pass on them and so far none have turned out to be the starters/stars that you seem to imply they could have been. If you know the next card in the deck is an ace, you always draw. If you're at 16 and the next card is more likely to be a 6-K than an A-5, then you pass. It's about risk/reward on what is essentially a gamble.

See above. I don't claim superhuman scouting abilities as that's not my profession. But a great many teams find value late in the draft other than SAS, just none as consistently as SAS. Like I said above, maybe it's luck and Crowder/Sarge may be our value picks which bloom. It's just been a long time since we've hit...

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

So who do you want to compare to? I took a look at several other teams as well and every one I looked at was able to score at least 1 to 2 rotation players at spots lower than Dallas, a few found stars very late.

Knicks got David Lee at 30th in 2005
Lakers got Marc Gasol (then traded him) at 48th in 2007
Celtics Tony Allen 25th in 2004
Chicago via Portland Omer Asik 36th in 2008 (traded) and Jimmy Butler 30th in 2011
GS got Monte Ellis 40th in 2005

None of them have given up 1st rounders nearly as often as Dallas. One can make the argument that Dallas has done "about average", but it just seems like so many teams have hit in at least one year with a late 1st rounder and we've had significant trouble doing so. I don't expect Dallas to hit every year, and maybe it's just been luck with these teams, but we've been in a pretty bad drought concerning the draft. Perhaps last years picks will pan out, but really the only teams doing consistently worse than the Mavs in the draft are the dregs of the league...

You know you just pulled 6 guys out of a pool of 288 for that, right (guys drafted 25-60 for the last 8 years)? The vast majority of those 25th-60th players never panned out. In hindsight, you can say that you were at 20 and there was an ace left in the deck. When you are playing the game live, you don't have that insight. Even in hindsight that is a silly argument.

Dirk's Knee · 05-16-2013, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

You know you just pulled 6 guys out of a pool of 288 for that, right (guys drafted 25-60 for the last 8 years)? The vast majority of those 25th-60th players never panned out. In hindsight, you can say that you were at 20 and there was an ace left in the deck. When you are playing the game live, you don't have that insight. Even in hindsight that is a silly argument.

You're missing the point entirely. Of course a majority do not pan out, but many do. And it seems most the more competitive teams have been able to hit with a later pick than Dallas in the last 10 years (our last hit with Josh Howard). And I just held up those guys as prime examples, there are a great many rotation players picked later than Dallas as well. I'm not even looking for a star late, many early round picks don't pan out. But our inability to even get a solid rotation player out of the draft (until last year) is a bit embarrassing. Let's put it this way, I don't have time to do this right now but if you do take a look at the Western Conference playoff teams this year and their historic picks. Over the past 10 years, how many of the picks end up playing in the NBA even if limited in minutes vs Dallas's picks?

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

See above. I don't claim superhuman scouting abilities as that's not my profession. But a great many teams find value late in the draft other than SAS, just none as consistently as SAS. Like I said above, maybe it's luck and Crowder/Sarge may be our value picks which bloom. It's just been a long time since we've hit...

There are only two smart metrics for measuring our drafting skill i

1) to compare historical odds at the position to how we did (we did better than average, and top 10 in the league since 2000). It's very different to draft 28th where your have about a 90% failure rate and succeed/fail than it is to say, draft 15th where your odds of failure are only 45%. You simply cannot compare teams without looking at the position they had and the odds of those picks working out.

2) to actually look at the draft history and see how many players were available. After Faried went, there was nothing in 2011. There may not be a single guy that works out after him. Hamilton is trash and then there is a list of a 30+ other guys that will never get contracts or will wash out after their first ones. When you actually pull up the draft results, it makes it even more clear that the guys like Gasol are total outliers. Dude is an allstar, but 30 teams passed on him and 17 teams passed on him TWICE.

grndmstr_c · 05-16-2013, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

Knicks got David Lee at 30th in 2005
Lakers got Marc Gasol (then traded him) at 48th in 2007
Celtics Tony Allen 25th in 2004
Chicago via Portland Omer Asik 36th in 2008 (traded) and Jimmy Butler 30th in 2011
GS got Monte Ellis 40th in 2005

Cherry picking much?

Most late first round or second round picks don't turn out to be much. The fact that there are a some who do turn in good careers doesn't change the fact that the odds in favor of that happening are low. You're also overlooking the fact that in order for Lee, Gasol, etc. to make it that late in the draft a LOT of teams, including plenty that are/were by no means the dregs of the league, had to pass on them.

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

You're missing the point entirely. Of course a majority do not pan out, but many do. And it seems most the more competitive teams have been able to hit with a later pick than Dallas in the last 10 years (our last hit with Josh Howard). And I just held up those guys as prime examples, there are a great many rotation players picked later than Dallas as well. I'm not even looking for a star late, many early round picks don't pan out. But our inability to even get a solid rotation player out of the draft (until last year) is a bit embarrassing.

If your sample size is huge, of course you will have a handful of outliers in that group. You just named six. I'm not denying those six players, but even if all things were equal, our odds of getting a superstar like gasol was 0.3%. The chance of getting one of those six guys you mentioned is 2.1%. The other 97.9% of guys are Sasha Kauns and DeVon Hardens, and you'd probably be telling me that drafting one of those is actually evidence that the Mavericks are bad at drafting.

If they hit at 19 and bust then they are bad. If they stand at 19, then they are terrible for not taking chances.

And we HAVE gotten rotation players. In fact, 40% of the players we've drafted over the last 11 seasons have started significant numbers of games. Another 40% have gone on to stay in the rotation as backups. Your words just don't match up with reality.

jasonic · 05-16-2013, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

Thought I'd take a look at SA's draft history. Holy crap! I knew they've done well but not this well. I have no idea how San Antonio does it, but they clearly beat the odds more often than not:

Manu Ginobili 1999 57th pick
Tony Parker 2001 28th pick
Louis Scola 2002 55th pick
Leandro Barbosa 2003 28th pick
Tiago Splitter 2007 28th pick
Goran Dragic 2008 45th pick
George Hill 2008 26th pick
DeJuan Blair 2009 37th pick

They've had some busts as well, but damn do they draft well. Let's look at Dallas by comparison (tried to include picks via trade but sure I've missed a few around the 2K mark):

Wang Zhizhi 1999 36th pick
Picks traded in 2000, 2001
Mladen Sekularac in 2002 54th, never played in the NBA
Josh Howard 2003 29th
Devin Harris 2004 5th pick via trade
JJ Barea 2006 (undrafted)
Roddy B 2009 24th via trade
Dominique Jones 2010 25th (via trade)
Pick traded 2011
Crowder/Sarge/Cunningham 2012 17th (traded down)

Scola was a great pick but back in the 2007 the Spurs trade him for Spanoulis, lol.

I agree with EricaLubarsky that the Spurs are the best team when it comes to drafting and about us, i think we have done a decent job in this area.

Josh was a great pick, in 2004 i would prefer Iggy or Deng but Harris was not a bad pick, and i would still want the Mavs to draft Roddy because his incontistency was due to injuries and not lack of talent. DoJo was a bad pick but if u see the players in the rest of the draft are not so good. Vasquez and Stephenson would be great picks, but they are both late bloomers, and this was the first year who contribute to their teams. Also i really like the trade about Crowder, because i think Zeller is a little bit overrated. The trade in 2011 was bad, because Cuban wanted to clear cap space.

yahyes · 05-16-2013, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I wouldn't be upset with Kevin, but is the bidding really likely to get to a point where OKC wouldn't match? I assume he'll want to stay with the Thunder and make up for this year's disappointment as long as the feeling is mutual, which I sort of expect it will be.

Who knows. Maybe they flake on Kevin Martin to where he's available at a reasonable price. I mean, the Thunder front office weren't too bright by ditching Harden over Ibaka right away.

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 01:38 PM

Martin would be a great 2-guard if we let Mayo walk. Martin doesn't address our lead guard position in the slightest, though. Collison is a better distributor than Martin (2.6 pass rating to 7.1) and Martin's numbers as a PG are awful. Dude is a 2/3 combo and not a 1/2.

Melonhead · 05-16-2013, 02:26 PM

With Dirk saying he will take a "significant pay cut", doesnt that give us free range to sign multiple stars to long term deals?

clutch#41 · 05-16-2013, 02:36 PM

Kevin Martin? his ankles are just as bad as Roddy B's!! Pass!! i wouldnt even call him

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

With Dirk saying he will take a "significant pay cut", doesn't that give us free range to sign multiple stars to long term deals?

I'm not sure he can do it this season and have it come off the cap. They can waive him and re-sign him, but I think that at least 22.7mill will count against next year's cap either way. It may open us up for more flexibility (a second max player) in 2014-2015, though. If agreeing to be waived and re-signed doesn't help our cap situation, he might as well finish t his contract and sign a new one this time next year for 5m/yr or whatever he's willing to take.

Underdog · 05-16-2013, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I'd still like you to look at the picks we traded away. Even in hindsight and the knowledge that there are a couple of break-out players that made it despite limitation (Big Baby is one), it's still startling how little talent there was after us in those drafts. In 2011, we traded Hamilton away, but Hamilton has been disappointing so far, had a bad reputation for being a team player and looking at the rest of the draft is underwhelming to say it gently.

Keeping picks should not be a measure for ability to draft well, and I'd even argue that trading away a flop when the rest of the draft is weak is actually a sign of good talent analysis. Hamilton was disappointing, but it was the right move in that draft. If we don't like anyone in the late first round, why give them a three year guaranteed contract? Getting a top 10 pick in the second round for guys with potential is also harder than you'd think.

Not to mention the guys we got by trading those picks away...

Dirk Nowitzki
Jason Kidd (2nd time)
Steve Nash
Erick Dampier
Nick Van Exel
Avery Johnson
Darrell Armstrong
Lamar Odom (reigning 6th Man of the Year)

Underdog · 05-16-2013, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

With Dirk saying he will take a "significant pay cut", doesnt that give us free range to sign multiple stars to long term deals?

He's talking about next summer when his current contract expires. Under the new CBA, players can no longer renegotiate contracts.

For example, if we get Dwight Howard this summer, then the plan might be to go after guys like John Wall, Brandon Jennings, Eric Bledsoe or Greivis Vasquez next summer... Or if we get Chris Paul, try to grab DeMarcus Cousins, Spencer Hawes or Macin Gortat with that extra money that Dirk is giving up... Or add a 3rd star at another position.

EricaLubarsky · 05-16-2013, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Not to mention the guys we got by trading those picks away...

Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Erick Dampier
Nick Van Exel
Avery Johnson
Darrell Armstrong

No Dirk?

dude1394 · 05-16-2013, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

Regarding number 2, take a look at how many 1 round picks they traded away. Not the player but actually trading future picks. Now in many of these years they were able to create another trade to get a rookie prospect and I'm sure some of the picks were traded for some valid talent but, still. Cuban has been on record stating he thought picks were pretty worthless and that if he wanted one he'd just buy one. These are the years in which Dallas had no first round pick: 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2010. Clearly shows a FO philosophy that doesn't place much value in the draft.

Regarding number 3, don't you think a huge part of their draft success is taking the draft very seriously and a coach whose willing to play rookies consistent minutes? SA doesn't give up their 1st round pick very often at all, only 4 times since '99 vs 7 for Dallas. I realize SAS is more the exception than rule, but to say teams can't find quality players late or that we do about average in the draft is really the point. The goal should be to be better than average. And to consistently be average points to flaws in the FO scouting/drafting abilities which need to be addressed.

If you don't place much value in the draft, you will not draft very well...I just don't see how you could when everyone is looking to make their mark(s) via trade.

Underdog · 05-16-2013, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

No Dirk?

Who?

Yeah, I must've accidentally edited his name off the top of the list... Fixed.