Lost: The Final Season - Page 25 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

u2sarajevo · 05-13-2010, 10:38 AM

I took the drinking wine thing as a sort of similarity as with taking communion. In that when you take communion you are acknowledging and reaffirming your belief that Jesus Christ died for you in order that you can have salvation.

Likewise when Jacob drank the wine it was his acceptance of his role of protector.

I don't think it was a magic potion or anything, but maybe I'm wrong.

jthig32 · 05-13-2010, 12:41 PM

I didn't really care about the wine. By that time I was wondering how I could get that 40 minutes of my life back.

Flacolaco · 05-13-2010, 12:45 PM

The great thing about it thig, is that it was so irrelevant to the rest of season 6 (and therein lies the problem with it), that we can just resume watching on Tuesday and forget about it

u2sarajevo · 05-13-2010, 01:16 PM

We did see the wine before though right? Didn't Jacob give it to Noname in a previous flashback? Or.... it was at least a similar wine container.

LonghornDub · 05-13-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

The great thing about it thig, is that it was so irrelevant to the rest of season 6 (and therein lies the problem with it), that we can just resume watching on Tuesday and forget about it

I don't see how you can say it was irrelevant. Even if you thought it was awful, it was exceedingly relevant.

XERXES · 05-13-2010, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

We did see the wine before though right? Didn't Jacob give it to Noname in a previous flashback? Or.... it was at least a similar wine container.

I think he used it to explain a metaphor to Richard when Richard tried to kill him.

jthig32 · 05-13-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I don't see how you can say it was irrelevant. Even if you thought it was awful, it was exceedingly relevant.

It really, really wasn't.

Flacolaco · 05-13-2010, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I don't see how you can say it was irrelevant. Even if you thought it was awful, it was exceedingly relevant.

The show has become about two things now: Smokey must not be allowed to leave, and Jacob brought them to the island to figure out a replacement.

After that episode, I really don't know any more about those things than I did before.

The only things I know that I didn't know before, are Adam and Eve, and who dug the wells. I almost know who assembled the donkey wheel at the bottom of the one well, but not really because they stopped short.

And while those things are nice to know, they're not really important to the present island story or what we know so far.

I expect, however, that the episode will become relevant moving forward. Mostly I expect to see that cave/light area again. Other than that, I liked Flocke's condensed version he told to Kate better. "I had a crazy mother." That's what we got out of it.

LonghornDub · 05-13-2010, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It really, really wasn't.

How do you figure? The core remaining conflict in the story is Jacob vs. MiB, with Jacob's role and purposes essentially being carried out by the remaining survivors (Jack etc.) since Jacob is dead. This episode gave backstory on those two characters and explained how they got to the state where the conflict between them began. It also revealed why smokey wants to leave, which is what Jacob and now his proxies are trying to prevent.

That is the very definition of "relevant." You may not have liked the particular answers we got, or the open-endedness, or the acting, or whatever else, but it was certainly "relevant."

LonghornDub · 05-13-2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

The show has become about two things now: Smokey must not be allowed to leave, and Jacob brought them to the island to figure out a replacement.

After that episode, I really don't know any more about those things than I did before.

I would think you would have to purposefully ignore or refuse to draw inferences/conclusions from certain portions of the episode to say that we haven't learned anything new about those two points.

On the first point, we know why smokey wants to leave, which is inextricably tied in with the fact that he can't be allowed to leave. We also have some slight hints as to why he can't leave, although nothing for certain yet.

On the second point, we know that the process of Jacob passing the torch is part of a chain (i.e., that the torch was at one point similarly passed down to him). This also tells us that it wasn't some unprecedented decision by Jacob to start looking for candidates to replace him. It's happened before. We know how the torch is passed (acceptance of the responsibility followed by drinking the wine to sort of consummate the event). We know that he was instructed to protect the island "as long as he could" before seeking out his replacement, which implicitly means that he decided at some point that he couldn't (didn't want to?) do it anymore.

What you are saying is that you aren't satisfied with the concreteness or depth of the answers, but that's not the same as saying the episode wasn't relevant.

LonghornDub · 05-13-2010, 03:25 PM

I'm going to go for the elusive triple post here, cause I wanted to add something else. I just want to be clear that I completely respect you guys' opinion and your right to hate the episode, even though I disagree. Unfortunately (and maybe this concern is arising permaturely since I have no idea how the next 3.5 hours will develop), I have this suspicion that some of you--the most hardcore fans of the show, far more hardcore than I--have expectations and conceptions that are out of line with the producers' vision of the show, and you're consequently going to end up disappointed. And I just think that'd be really unfortunate, to deprive yourselves of enjoying the end when you've enjoyed so much of the journey throughout.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-13-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

And let me also say that i am NOT someone who believes that an unsatisfactory conclusion invalidates the previous 5 seasons. I still enjoyed those episodes, and the acting has been top notch (well, besides last night's.

everybody sucked except for MiB ). it will be disappointing if the conclusion sucks, but i won't feel like i wasted 6 years of my life.

Just quoting my earlier post to show how level-headed I am.

My expectations aren't too high for the finale. I just expect it NOT to suck... which actually may be too high of an expectation after Tuesday's episode...

Flacolaco · 05-13-2010, 03:53 PM

[quote=LonghornDub;1101500]

Quote:

On the second point, we know that the process of Jacob passing the torch is part of a chain (i.e., that the torch was at one point similarly passed down to him). This also tells us that it wasn't some unprecedented decision by Jacob to start looking for candidates to replace him. It's happened before. We know how the torch is passed (acceptance of the responsibility followed by drinking the wine to sort of consummate the event). We know that he was instructed to protect the island "as long as he could" before seeking out his replacement, which implicitly means that he decided at some point that he couldn't (didn't want to?) do it anymore.

First of all, none of this was a surprise, was it? I think we had all assumed this was a cycle. What would have been news on the Jacob front would have been a little more exposition on "bringing people here to prove him wrong" and all of that jazz.

If the torch is passed via wine...well, that's a toughy. Jacob is dead. Maybe they're going back to DHARMA-Ville for some of that box wine

Quote:

On the first point, we know why smokey wants to leave, which is inextricably tied in with the fact that he can't be allowed to leave. We also have some slight hints as to why he can't leave, although nothing for certain yet.

Knowing why he wants to leave....that's pretty meh. I guess that's an answer. Why the whole world is in danger if he does...why it is of dire importance that he doesn't...well the only reason we got on that was mother saying "because I love you." Anything else we think we know is conjecture we have to bend over backwards to make work, and there's no reason for it. It is the end. If they want us to know something then they could be at least a tiny bit demonstrative about it.

jthig32 · 05-13-2010, 03:54 PM

I have no big expectations. I have no theories, and I'm not even really a big answer guy.

What I mainly care about are the characters, and last night's backstory was horribly done. Dub, you keep saying that we know why smokey wants to leave...I mean...do we? He wants to leave because he's not from the island? He wants to leave because his mom said he couldn't? I guess? What terrible reasons. Knowing why he wants to get off the island was so, so, so far down my list of things I was curious about it didn't even register. Almost everyone wants to get off the island, why wouldn't he?

When I'm watching the clock wondering when one of the last LOST episodes ever is going to end because I'm bored and ready to do something else, they have epicly failed me.

Flacolaco · 05-13-2010, 04:02 PM

And somehow I'm even more excited about next week than I was before, btw.

Since they rarely, if ever, have kicked me in the balls, I don't really hold this against them. I am sure the Finale is going to be really great.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-13-2010, 04:03 PM

In response to those expectations (which honestly, i really don't have any, besides it not sucking), I had a friend tell me it's not fair to LOST and the people behind it that all the "rabid fans" won't be satisfied with the outcome and questions not being answered.

Um, the people behind the show are directly responsible for creating that rabid fan base! this is a show that has dragged out questions or answered them with even more questions (which i never really minded that much because i love the characters), and has even officially created dozens of fake websites introducing mysteries OUTSIDE of the show. Including multiple sites about DHARMA and an entire game-like thing about the fake plane crash under the ocean. Whether that is ABC to blame or the producers, someone is still to blame.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-13-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

And somehow I'm even more excited about next week than I was before, btw.

Since they rarely, if ever, have kicked me in the balls, I don't really hold this against them. I am sure the Finale is going to be really great.

Yes, i agree with this. They can redeem themselves. And i hope they do. This episode wouldn't have been awful if it wasn't 4 hours from the end. Filler episode earlier this season? I'd have accepted it.

It was just such a big ball kick this week, i hope i don't have phantom pains next week.

CadBane · 05-13-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

This is a show where people have time traveled, ghosts have appeared and had conversations with folks, a man can turn into a flying puff of smoke that makes mechanical noises and slaughters people, certain people can't kill themselves or each other, an entire island can be "moved," that same island seems to have human-like motivations and will, and there are two simultaneously existing timelines featuring the same people living two different lives.

But you won't suspend your disbelief that wine could be magical without an detailed explanation of how it works?

Nothing wrong with Time Travel or Ghosts. In fact both hold scientific merit (of course not in the way we see on Lost), but they were executed well (Time Travel, not so much the explanation for the whispers). So no, I don't have a problem with those things. Explaining Smokey as some sort of Egyptian deity (Anubis) or some such wouldn't have been bad either.

It's not so much that it's unrealistic to have a magic wine (obviously it is), but that's not the point. The "magic wine" just seems really cheap, unimaginative and poor writing. It's not congruous with the majority of Lost mysteries.

CadBane · 05-13-2010, 04:08 PM

Of course I'm still excited for Tuesday!

Ninkobei · 05-13-2010, 04:49 PM

@ Cad. I'm pretty sure that the wine itself wasnt magical. It was the ceremony/words "mother" said before prescribing it to him that was key.
Right now I just have entirely too many theories, and not all of them fit with each other. So instead of post a bunch of crazy hypothesi' this week, I for one will be riding it out.
also, I'm posting this because it has LOST in it:

LonghornDub · 05-13-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I have no big expectations. I have no theories, and I'm not even really a big answer guy.

What I mainly care about are the characters, and last night's backstory was horribly done. Dub, you keep saying that we know why smokey wants to leave...I mean...do we? He wants to leave because he's not from the island? He wants to leave because his mom said he couldn't? I guess? What terrible reasons. Knowing why he wants to get off the island was so, so, so far down my list of things I was curious about it didn't even register. Almost everyone wants to get off the island, why wouldn't he?

When I'm watching the clock wondering when one of the last LOST episodes ever is going to end because I'm bored and ready to do something else, they have epicly failed me.

I don't think it's fair to compare him to "everybody else." Of course everybody else wants to leave--they're all normal people who weren't born on the island. But he and Jacob are two of a kind. Jacob is the only person he can fairly be compared to, and Jacob doesn't/didn't want to leave. It is impactful to find out that one twin brother wants to leave and the other one wants to stay, especially when they had a similar upbringing and neither one has ever been off the island.

And yes, I think both those reasons explain why he want to leave (the reasons are related, of course). Hey, you're entitled to think they're terrible reasons. I disagree, and I actually think they're great reasons, because I think the entire point was to humanize and complicate both brothers. MiB is a fearsome, murderous smoke monster thing, but on some level he carries the curiosity and frustration of a child who was lied to by his "mother" and never had a chance to experience the world.

I absolutely love that the show's creators aren't afraid of shades of gray when it comes to their characters, even the two who are supposed to be super-good and super-bad, respectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

In response to those expectations (which honestly, i really don't have any, besides it not sucking), I had a friend tell me it's not fair to LOST and the people behind it that all the "rabid fans" won't be satisfied with the outcome and questions not being answered.

Um, the people behind the show are directly responsible for creating that rabid fan base! this is a show that has dragged out questions or answered them with even more questions (which i never really minded that much because i love the characters), and has even officially created dozens of fake websites introducing mysteries OUTSIDE of the show. Including multiple sites about DHARMA and an entire game-like thing about the fake plane crash under the ocean. Whether that is ABC to blame or the producers, someone is still to blame.

You are kidding yourself if you think you don't have expectations besides it "not sucking." If you say it sucks, you obviously have reasons to think that way, and those reasons reflect the various other expectations or conceptions you had coming in. It's impossible to judge something as good or bad without some threshold expectations to make that judgment.

If fans are upset that the show has dragged out questions and not answered them, I don't feel the least bit sorry. People were on notice after watching more than an episode or two that this show likes to set up tons of questions and rarely provide answers. And even when it does, the answers are often open-ended or ambiguous. That isn't going to change a whole lot just because we're nearing the end. We'll get enough answers that the show doesn't end with a complete lack of resolution, but that's probably about it.

Read the interveiw whoever posted above, if you haven't. DL and CC talk about how much they loved the endnig of the Sopranos. If that's not a hint that the conclusion of this show is going to be open-ended and leave a ton of people feeling unsatisfied, I don't know what is.

Ninkobei · 05-13-2010, 05:28 PM

hope i'm not ruining the thread with pics..

Big Boy Laroux · 05-13-2010, 05:45 PM

There is a big difference between an episode "sucking" and not being satisfied. I don't need every question answered - I've said that multiple times already. But when questions are answered in a ridiculously hokey way (see: the donkey wheel), that SUCKS. I had no expectations for the donkey wheel - in fact, I could not have cared less if they ever addressed it again. If they had just shown the wheel in the background and never addressed it directly, that would also have been fine with me.

I'm more pissed off at the egos of the producers than the show itself. They are trying so hard to make the ending something no one could have ever guessed, they run the risk of making the show ridiculous.

XERXES · 05-13-2010, 05:54 PM

Yeah. I was gonna re-watch it tonight. Never got around to it yesterday. But I'm going to go see Conan O'Brien instead. So, tomorrow I'll give you fools an update on both...

mavspwnage · 05-13-2010, 07:36 PM

sike · 05-13-2010, 08:22 PM

those LOST pics are great... + rep

Big Boy Laroux · 05-13-2010, 08:39 PM

That anti-Locke brake one is genius.

LonghornDub · 05-13-2010, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

There is a big difference between an episode "sucking" and not being satisfied. I don't need every question answered - I've said that multiple times already. But when questions are answered in a ridiculously hokey way (see: the donkey wheel), that SUCKS. I had no expectations for the donkey wheel - in fact, I could not have cared less if they ever addressed it again. If they had just shown the wheel in the background and never addressed it directly, that would also have been fine with me.

I'm more pissed off at the egos of the producers than the show itself. They are trying so hard to make the ending something no one could have ever guessed, they run the risk of making the show ridiculous.

I actually agree, but again, the show has always been like that. They introduce elements and give them a very limited, obscure, or mysterious treatment, and then we never hear from them again. I acutally thought it was really stupid at first, but I got used to it and it sorta even grew on me.

You'd expect a shift toward more answers at the end of the show, and I think we've gotten more answers, but I can't personally say I ever expected the show to completely stop giving things incomplete (maybe even half-assed?) treatment.

Flacolaco · 05-13-2010, 10:10 PM

So, getting back to what we ordinarily do around here... Do we think Desmond is going to go down into that cave thing? I mean...that's where "the light is", and the DHARMA folk said that "light" is some kind of limitless electromagnetic energy, and Desmond recently survived some kind of electromagnetic energy test....

LonghornDub · 05-13-2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

So, getting back to what we ordinarily do around here... Do we think Desmond is going to go down into that cave thing? I mean...that's where "the light is", and the DHARMA folk said that "light" is some kind of limitless electromagnetic energy, and Desmond recently survived some kind of electromagnetic energy test....

I have no prediction about the specifics, but it seems like they've definitely set him up as the "answer" with his special immunity to electromagnetism.

Flacolaco · 05-13-2010, 10:28 PM

BTW, if this well is another way to get at "the light"

Well then it seems to me that the light is still there, and in fact did not go out (or go with the smoke monster)

But what do I know?

LonghornDub · 05-13-2010, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

BTW, if this well is another way to get at "the light"

Well then it seems to me that the light is still there, and in fact did not go out (or go with the smoke monster)

But what do I know?

Nice. That may just kill that theory...

Flacolaco · 05-13-2010, 10:43 PM

lol yeah.

I am going to try as hard as I can to get through the last 3.5 hours of LOST before twisting off on them any further. There's still time...

Big Boy Laroux · 05-13-2010, 11:58 PM

Desmond? Who's that? I think I vaguely remember someone with that name. Also, maybe a Benjamin and Richard?

Big Boy Laroux · 05-14-2010, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I actually agree, but again, the show has always been like that. They introduce elements and give them a very limited, obscure, or mysterious treatment, and then we never hear from them again. I acutally thought it was really stupid at first, but I got used to it and it sorta even grew on me.

You'd expect a shift toward more answers at the end of the show, and I think we've gotten more answers, but I can't personally say I ever expected the show to completely stop giving things incomplete (maybe even half-assed?) treatment.

Well, we agree on something

I know the show has always been about mysterious things and slowly revealing answers (or dropping plots entirely - what made walt special, for example). I was never annoyed by it cause the characters have always made it worthwhile. But here, 4 hours away from the end, we should be getting something besides "hey, it's magic!"

Big Boy Laroux · 05-14-2010, 12:06 AM

I do honestly think I have officially given up on this genre of show for the future. I think lost caught lightning in a bottle. Nothing like it on TV, great cast, beautiful shooting locale/scenery, an AMAZING pilot (and first season).

Any other show that comes along now just seems like a cheap imitation, and certainly doesn't have the same level of acting (see: flash forward, which I gave up on months ago), intentionally drags out reveals over excruciatingly long periods of time (because, hey, lost did it, but neglecting to actually have any interesting characters).

LonghornDub · 05-14-2010, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

Well, we agree on something

I know the show has always been about mysterious things and slowly revealing answers (or dropping plots entirely - what made walt special, for example). I was never annoyed by it cause the characters have always made it worthwhile. But here, 4 hours away from the end, we should be getting something besides "hey, it's magic!"

From what they've said, they really want to focus on the characters for the finale, so I wonder how much that will detract (if any) from resolving key plot points.

Flacolaco · 05-14-2010, 12:27 AM

You're right, but the Sci-Fi genre will continue to dominate my interest regardless of quality or quantity.

It's far superior to the relationship/and/or/reality based drivel on....pretty much 99% of the rest of the time.

Flashforward was garbage though, you're right about that.

I am 5 episodes behind on V, but because it's probable to get renewed, I am holding a good thought for that.

All that being said, FRINGE is clearly the winner amongst newish SciFi shows. I think Fringe is very strong in most areas (writing, acting, etc...)

Big Boy Laroux · 05-14-2010, 12:52 AM

I'm not talking giving up on sci-fi, I'm talking giving up on the shows that rely on releasing information bit by bit, and you need a notebook to keep track of everything. Not sure what to call that genre.

I gave up on fringe, too, but just because of other conflicts on that night. But correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't fringe a little more episodic in nature? As in, kind of like x-files? Each episode had its own case to solve, although there is an overall mystery. So each episode could stand alone.

CadBane · 05-14-2010, 12:57 AM

I still watch Flash Forward. It definitely has some lousy acting (though Dominic is fantastic and easily the best part of the show) and the writing is lousy, but the concepts are interesting. It's entertaining enough.

I've been close to dumping V a few times, but stuck with it. The acting and writing on V is far worse than on FF, and that's saying something. The character of Hobbes is pretty cool though, I'm sticking out S1 for him.