Do you think we'll make a major trade before the deadline? - Page 29 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mac222b · 02-05-2011, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Nash & Hill - I can already imagine the retirement home jokes...

Two guys you can go to war with though. I love Roddy's potential. I personally think he can be even better than most people around here think. But if we're talking about winning a championship it's alot to put on a guy who's been hurt all year and is essentially a rookie(thanks again Rick).

Nash and Hill are shooting 52&50% from the field respectively and 40&37% from 3. And Hill is still a gritty defender. It would be tough to turn this down if it presents itself.

mac222b · 02-05-2011, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think the only way that happens is if they move Nash somewhere else. I don't see them keeping Nash and trading Hill. That would just make Nash even more unhappy.

exactly. and xbox you're joking about not needing Nash cuz of JJB right

.
please tell me you're only "joshing"(childress pun)

mavs777 · 02-05-2011, 12:11 AM

I don't see a deal where both teams would agree for with just Hill, I think it will take both because I think Phoenix would demand Roddy regardless and Dallas won't trade Roddy unless we get both

sefant77 · 02-05-2011, 12:17 AM

Cuban like to rent a player?

Prince + Jones for Butler and you agree silently to S&T both players back to the old team in the summer

That would be pretty awesome, makes me wondering with which "argument" the league office would decline the summer trade then, haha

LonghornDub · 02-05-2011, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think the only way that happens is if they move Nash somewhere else. I don't see them keeping Nash and trading Hill. That would just make Nash even more unhappy.

Maybe true.

And unfortunately, Phoenix is only like 2.5 games out of the 8th spot, so I don't think they're going to be having a firesale anytime soon.

mac222b · 02-05-2011, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

I don't see a deal where both teams would agree for with just Hill, I think it will take both because I think Phoenix would demand Roddy regardless and Dallas won't trade Roddy unless we get both

Yeah Hill only gets moved if Nash does and vice versa. And it's going to take a young stud, a 1st round pick, expirings and cash. If Phoenix even does it.
As Sports Guy pointed out Nash&Hill are all class and never would demand a trade. But they'll be lucky to get in the playoffs and bounced 1st round. It would be a nice gesture on the part of the Suns to send them to a contender.

dalger · 02-05-2011, 12:31 AM

I'm not supporting a big move either. This team is playing well and I wouldn't want to mess with the chemistry we have right now. Something that looks good on paper doesn't necessarily look good on the court due to a lack of time to get used to each other.

If we could make a reasonable move with Caron's contract and trade for someone like Prince, I'd definitely prefer that type of a one-on-one deal. Integrating one guy into the rotation should be possible without losing chemistry.

mac222b · 02-05-2011, 12:37 AM

I feel this way about Melo. think it could cause more headaches than it's worth. but Nash&Hill are pros and make others better. Either way we're integrating Roddy and Peja and potentially, say, Prince for Caron. Either way 3 new rotation players. I'd just love to see this team with another guy that create with the ball in his hands. Roddy can obviously do this, he just isn't playoff tested. Or even regular season tested for that matter...

BGMaverick9 · 02-05-2011, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

I'm not supporting a big move either. This team is playing well and I wouldn't want to mess with the chemistry we have right now. Something that looks good on paper doesn't necessarily look good on the court due to a lack of time to get used to each other.

If we could make a reasonable move with Caron's contract and trade for someone like Prince, I'd definitely prefer that type of a one-on-one deal. Integrating one guy into the rotation should be possible without losing chemistry.

Your example probably isn't an option anymore. They're main priority is getting rid of Hamilton and that will be an impossible feat. If they want Prince, it's likely going to take absorbing Rip's contract.

At this point, I can see them
A) keeping Caron and attempting to re-up in the offseason at a discounted rate and standing pat
B) trading him and getting two nice pieces that can address needs
C) keeping Caron and attempting to re-up in the offseason at a discounted rate and using an exception to land a $3-4 million player.

it all just depends on what is available on the market.

dalger · 02-05-2011, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

but Nash&Hill are pros and make others better. Either way we're integrating Roddy and Peja and potentially, say, Prince for Caron. Either way 3 new rotation players. I'd just love to see this team with another guy that create with the ball in his hands. Roddy can obviously do this, he just isn't playoff tested. Or even regular season tested for that matter...

The difference is that Nash and Hill would be completely new to the system. Peja's already been here for a couple of weeks, while Roddy's been practicing for a while now and he's played with our guys before. On top of that, we'd have to give up Stevenson to make that deal with Phoenix. So we'd have to integrate two new players and and lose one as well. In addition, giving up Butler and Roddy for a pair of 37-year-olds isn't too enticing.

I think that BG could be right that nothing big is going to happen. Prince is probably the guy we'd want the most, especially due to his contract, but he may not be available at all. Guys like Jackson, Iggy, Wallace or Maggette have pretty big contracts and may not be what we're looking for anyway under the given circumstances.

mavs777 · 02-05-2011, 01:17 AM

I hope Prince isn't available, you guys are seriously overrating his game, jmo

dalger · 02-05-2011, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

I hope Prince isn't available, you guys are seriously overrating his game, jmo

He'd have to be better than a towel-waiving Butler or either Cardinal, JJB or Peja in the starting lineup. Sounds possible to me.

mavs777 · 02-05-2011, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

He'd have to be better than a towel-waiving Butler or either Cardinal, JJB or Peja in the starting lineup. Sounds possible to me.

Well he would most likely hurt the offense

mac222b · 02-05-2011, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Well he would most likely hurt the offense

Not sure how he'd hurt the offense. He's a pretty efficient player. He's come back down to earth lately but is having a good year. He'd get all kinds of good looks here. Weakside 3's and drives and such.

dalger · 02-05-2011, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Well he would most likely hurt the offense

If you think that he's worse than either Cardinal, JJB or a declining and injury-prone Peja, who has yet to prove that he can still deliver and stay healthy, you may be underrating Prince more than other people are overrating him.

mavs777 · 02-05-2011, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

Not sure how he'd hurt the offense. He's a pretty efficient player. He's come back down to earth lately but is having a good year. He'd get all kinds of good looks here. Weakside 3's and drives and such.

He isn't a great catch and shoot guy from what I have seen, he has a pretty good mid range game but past that meh, he almost never gets to the line, I guess the argument would be who would we get thats better? But I would rather just roll with Peja and Marion

mavs777 · 02-05-2011, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

If you think that he's worse than either Cardinal, JJB or a declining and injury-prone Peja, who has yet to prove that he can still deliver and stay healthy, you may be underrating Prince more than other people are overrating him.

Offensivley he is worse than JJB, but obviously he is the better player, and I would say him and Peja are about equal with slight edge to Prince, Peja can still score and shoot he is the vastly better offensive option even with virtually no quickness, obviously Prince's defense is better than Pejas.

but since it sounds like they would force us to take RIP too its not even worth discussing

Underdog · 02-05-2011, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Well he would most likely hurt the offense

Not that it's much of a comparison since Caron can contribute absolutely nothing, but:

mavs777 · 02-05-2011, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Not that it's much of a comparison since Caron can contribute absolutely nothing, but:

Prince wouldn't get near as many looks here. Prince doesn't even get to the line as much as Butler, Prince doesn't space the floor as well as Butler either. The three point shooting is a huge edge to Butler (attempts 1 more than Prince per game)

and I have thought for years Prince's defense is overrated... just an opinion but its how i feel

mac222b · 02-05-2011, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

The difference is that Nash and Hill would be completely new to the system. Peja's already been here for a couple of weeks, while Roddy's been practicing for a while now and he's played with our guys before. On top of that, we'd have to give up Stevenson to make that deal with Phoenix. So we'd have to integrate two new players and and lose one as well. In addition, giving up Butler and Roddy for a pair of 37-year-olds isn't too enticing.

I think that BG could be right that nothing big is going to happen. Prince is probably the guy we'd want the most, especially due to his contract, but he may not be available at all. Guys like Jackson, Iggy, Wallace or Maggette have pretty big contracts and may not be what we're looking for anyway under the given circumstances.

Most likely have to give up Stevenson but that's just one version of the deal being bandied about...
I'm all for keeping chemistry and continuity. But there were times tonight when we had Dirk surrounded by DeShawn, Jet, Kidd, Marion, Tyson and there were simply not enough scorers among them. Except for Dirk and Jet we have no one that is comfortable with the ball in their hands with the clock winding down. JJB is a good change-up and Roddy will more than likely help in this regard, but how much exactly? And does Roddy really have that much chemistry with these guys? Nash and Hill could walk in tomorrow and have just as much, sheerly by virtue of experience alone. Also Nash and Dirk have played way more ball together over the years than Roddy and Dirk.

I'm not saying it'll happen. More than likely it won't. Like BG said, we'll probably see a smaller move for a TE--if anything is even available.

I just think there are alot of teams that like their chemistry but then would say- "it's freaking Steve Nash and Grant Hill!!! let's do this"... Two of the more well respected players in the game and great competitors both. They get calls and respect from refs. They have taken and made big shots. Those things are just invaluable IMO come playoff time.

dalger · 02-05-2011, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Offensivley he is worse than JJB, but obviously he is the better player, and I would say him and Peja are about equal with slight edge to Prince, Peja can still score and shoot he is the vastly better offensive option even with virtually no quickness, obviously Prince's defense is better than Pejas.

but since it sounds like they would force us to take RIP too its not even worth discussing

No one would want or make that deal with Hamilton included. We're only talking about the possibility of trading Caron, Dojo and a pick for Prince. Right now, the only legitimate option at the 3 is Peja. Cardinal or small ball with JJB will win us the occasional game, but not an entire series against a quality opponent.

Getting Prince for basically nothing would make us a better team and me much more comfortable than relying on Peja only. Then again, as mentioned by BG, Prince doesn't seem to be available, at least not for the right price, meaning without RIP.

mavs777 · 02-05-2011, 01:45 AM

im not trading Dojo for Prince I don't see a reason for it, he is just a slightly better version than Peja

Peja/Marion is good enough

LonghornDub · 02-05-2011, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

im not trading Dojo for Prince I don't see a reason for it, he is just a slightly better version than Peja

wat

mac222b · 02-05-2011, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

He isn't a great catch and shoot guy from what I have seen, he has a pretty good mid range game but past that meh, he almost never gets to the line, I guess the argument would be who would we get thats better? But I would rather just roll with Peja and Marion

He's at least a guy who teams have to respect from 3 and mid-range.
And even if his D is slightly overrated, he's still a good defender. It's not like opposing wings are licking their chops at the prospect of facing Prince. Playing for a championship contender can only help his focus and desire on that end too...
How many teams in the league would have 2 guys like Marion&Prince to throw at opposing 3's? It's part of what was lost when Caron went down-- having two scrappy defenders at the SF to throw at the Gays,etc of the world. That and Marion being able to slide to the 4 to back up Dirk.

CadBane · 02-05-2011, 01:51 AM

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Originally Posted by LonghornDub

wat

Lolz.

mac222b · 02-05-2011, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

No one would want or make that deal with Hamilton included. We're only talking about the possibility of trading Caron, Dojo and a pick for Prince. Right now, the only legitimate option at the 3 is Peja. Cardinal or small ball with JJB will win us the occasional game, but not an entire series against a quality opponent.

Getting Prince for basically nothing would make us a better team and me much more comfortable than relying on Peja only. Then again, as mentioned by BG, Prince doesn't seem to be available, at least not for the right price, meaning without RIP.

For now. He could be made available closer to the deadline. They arent going to make the playoffs and there is now bad blood between the Detroit FO/Coaches and Prince who has sided with Rip. And clashed w/ Kuester earlier.
Maybe they think they can get more in a sign and trade for Prince later? Or maybe they take a 1st and a youngster and an expiring. It's not like that wouldn't be a fair trade. I could see them doing Prince for Kaman being as he's from around there, but with ownership influx i doubt they'll take on contracts. But even they must know NO ONE is trading for Rip.

dalger · 02-05-2011, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

im not trading Dojo for Prince I don't see a reason for it, he is just a slightly better version than Peja

Peja/Marion is good enough

Peja's only strength is his ability to shoot and spread the floor. That quality just hasn't been there as it used to over the last couple of years. Maybe he'll get back on track, maybe he won't. On top of that, it's always risky to rely on players who have been struggling with knee problems.

If you think that Jet's a one-dimensional player and useless when his shot isn't falling, you'll probably think the same about Peja in no time. Prince at least offers something on both ends of the floor and can be productive in different ways. That's why guys like Marion and Butler, even when their shots aren't falling, can still have decent games and help us win.

Thomas86 · 02-05-2011, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

im not trading Dojo for Prince I don't see a reason for it, he is just a slightly better version than Peja

Peja/Marion is good enough

Funny Joke...

Underdog · 02-05-2011, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Prince doesn't even get to the line as much as Butler, Prince doesn't space the floor as well as Butler either. The three point shooting is a huge edge to Butler (attempts 1 more than Prince per game)

This might be news to you, but Caron Butler is out for the season...

So, yes, Prince does all that stuff better than Butler.

BGMaverick9 · 02-05-2011, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

For now. He could be made available closer to the deadline. They arent going to make the playoffs and there is now bad blood between the Detroit FO/Coaches and Prince who has sided with Rip. And clashed w/ Kuester earlier.
Maybe they think they can get more in a sign and trade for Prince later? Or maybe they take a 1st and a youngster and an expiring. It's not like that wouldn't be a fair trade. I could see them doing Prince for Kaman being as he's from around there, but with ownership influx i doubt they'll take on contracts. But even they must know NO ONE is trading for Rip.

Like you mentioned, it is possible he becomes more available as the deadline gets closer. It sounds similar to the Philly situation from last year. They've got an asset (Prince/Iggy) and the team realizes that they're stuck with a contract so they're going to try to unload it in the process (Hamilton/Brand). It seems like that becomes the sticking point and Philly was fine standing pat.

For me, I'd trade Butler, Dojo and a first for Prince....really, what are you giving up in that scenario (a player that won't see the court due to injury, a player that won't see the court due to being trapped at the end of the rotation and something you can easily obtain for 3 million dollars.?

the fact I'm pushing the exception idea more is because Cuban mentioned it for the first time during the homestand. I honestly can't remember him or anyone really mentioning the exceptions themselves. He's knowledgeable of what they have, their value and when they expire.

dalger · 02-05-2011, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

This might be news to you, but Caron Butler is out for the season...

So, yes, Prince does all that stuff better than Butler.

That, and it's actually Prince plus Peja, not Prince instead of Peja...with Butler out for the season, yup.

mac222b · 02-05-2011, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Like you mentioned, it is possible he becomes more available as the deadline gets closer. It sounds similar to the Philly situation from last year. They've got an asset (Prince/Iggy) and the team realizes that they're stuck with a contract so they're going to try to unload it in the process (Hamilton/Brand). It seems like that becomes the sticking point and Philly was fine standing pat.

For me, I'd trade Butler, Dojo and a first for Prince....really, what are you giving up in that scenario (a player that won't see the court due to injury, a player that won't see the court due to being trapped at the end of the rotation and something you can easily obtain for 3 million dollars.?

the fact I'm pushing the exception idea more is because Cuban mentioned it for the first time during the homestand. I honestly can't remember him or anyone really mentioned the exceptions themselves. He's knowledgeable of what they have, their value and when they expire.

Yeah I agree. Unless there is something bigger and better(Melo)or smaller and relatively equal(for the TE)out there i don't see how you pass on Prince for Butler/Dojo/1st.
You can plug Prince into Caron's role pretty seamlessly AND maintain flexibility. From that standpoint it's about the optimal move to be made.

grndmstr_c · 02-05-2011, 02:55 AM

Three weeks ago Butler/DoJo/1st would've been a very worthwhile price to play for Prince. Now? I think that'd be Dallas bailing them out a bit, given how sour things have gotten over the Rip situation. And I also think Dallas is dealing from a much stronger position than they were before, with Peja signed, Dirk back in form and a pair of road wins against LAL and Boston to their credit.

deamon · 02-05-2011, 07:36 AM

RIP is best nick for Hamilton at now, he's done and Prince isn't good as Butler was before injury.

dude1394 · 02-05-2011, 09:48 AM

What I saw last night is that we will have lots of troubles matching up with muscular 3's without Caron... DSteve is too small and Peja's going to be too slow.. Shawn is solid but he's not going to start and I don't like our flexibility if we HAVE to have him out there.

Until now RC's been able to pick and choose.. A good defender with a very good offensive iso game or a very good defender with a very poor offensive iso game. Although the mavs have been posting him up quite a bit.

LonghornDub · 02-05-2011, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

What I saw last night is that we will have lots of troubles matching up with muscular 3's without Caron... DSteve is too small and Peja's going to be too slow.. Shawn is solid but he's not going to start and I don't like our flexibility if we HAVE to have him out there.

I agree with your conclusion, but I'm curious how you got this from last night? Pierce was more or less a nonfactor. Was it from Quis posting up a couple times?

cowdog80 · 02-05-2011, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

Yeah I agree. Unless there is something bigger and better(Melo)or smaller and relatively equal(for the TE)out there i don't see how you pass on Prince for Butler/Dojo/1st.
You can plug Prince into Caron's role pretty seamlessly AND maintain flexibility. From that standpoint it's about the optimal move to be made.

I'm not saying that Detroit would pass - but there are a couple reasons that that they might:

1) they don't value DoJo, don't want to pay another first round pick, and thus see little point in swapping expirings.

2) if they are getting any interest from other contenders (or just playoff likelies), that package wouldn't be extremely difficult to beat.

mavs777 · 02-05-2011, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I agree with your conclusion, but I'm curious how you got this from last night? Pierce was more or less a nonfactor. Was it from Quis posting up a couple times?

I am guessing how Daniels got pretty much all his points in the paint.

And Prince can't play muscular guys either

LonghornDub · 02-05-2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

I am guessing how Daniels got pretty much all his points in the paint.

And Prince can't play muscular guys either

I don't even know what to say.

mavs777 · 02-05-2011, 02:49 PM

Hamilton deactivated today