Mavs lose at Celtics: 31-14

[Jack.Kerr]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Maybe KG doesn't understand the game very well since he can't recognize parker as a top 5 point guard.

Let's see...nash, paul, bdavis, kidd, billups, deron williams, allen iverson...

What? No Marbury on your list? No Steve Francis?

So this is going to be an ongoing thing for you, huh.

You sound like one of those football wives who needs to take a Football for Dummies course so she can sit with her husband during the Super Bowl and not have him dump bean dip on her head.

I hope you enjoy watching the cheerleaders, because hell knows what you see going on in the game.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Duncan probably qualifies well enough as a quarterback.

To dismiss the importance of a floor leader at PG just because the Spurs (who even had Johnson and Parker, et al) won four titles in the last ten years is to tread questionable logical ground. The Spurs do a LOT of things better than other teams do. If you want to try to emulate them, and do what they but better, go ahead. But if you want to try to beat them, you might be well served to have a facilitator on offense.

If the Mavs want to upgrade their backcourt, they should trade for Maggette, or Mike Miller. What the Mavs should not do is trade a 24 year old rising star for a 34 year old microfracture patient who shoots under 40% from the field and make 20 mil a year. No thank you.

You can throw out names like "true PG," for "floor leader," "floor general," or "quarterback" all you want. It doesn't mean a damn thing. I'd rather keep the phenominal athlete in Devin Harris than give him up for a one-legged 34 year old "quarterback."

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If the Mavs want to upgrade their backcourt, they should trade for Maggette, or Mike Miller. What the Mavs should not do is trade a 24 year old rising star for a 34 year old microfracture patient who shoots under 40% from the field and make 20 mil a year. No thank you.

You can throw out names like "true PG," for "floor leader," "floor general," or "quarterback" all you want. It doesn't mean a damn thing. I'd rather keep the phenominal athlete in Devin Harris than give him up for a one-legged 34 year old "quarterback."

Mike Miller please. Dude is nasty from 3. He'd eliminate a lot of our problems with facing a zone (assuming, of course, that he doesnt start choking on his 3's in the playoffs).

[Thespiralgoeson]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/...n-Numbers.html

Jason Kidd vs. Devin Harris, in Numbers

Look, I think we all know why the Dallas Mavericks and a zillion other teams might be interested in Jason Kidd. Veteran poise, mental toughness, ball movement ... we have all seen that.

What would be driving this rumored trade, more than anything, though -- say it with ne now -- is that Jason Kidd makes his teammates better. Everyone from Kenyon Martin to Mikki Moore had their career years alongside Kidd. And look at what he did for Team USA last summer!

Dallas needs to win a title, right now, with Dirk Nowitzki andJason Kidd Josh Howard hitting the big shots. Kidd, we assume, would be just the guy to get Nowitzki and Howard the good looks they so richly deserve. He's also a killer rebounder for his position.

Sure he might give up a little in speed. OK, he's not a great shooter. But he's Jason Kidd, and that's a solid upgrade over Devin Harris.

In the weird alchemy of NBA team construction that may, in fact, be so. Perhaps, with Kidd, the Mavericks waltz to a title. Who would be shocked? LeBron James sure seems to think Kidd is the fairy godmother of championships.

Just don't go looking for statistics to back up the claim that, at this stage, Jason Kidd is better for his team than Devin Harris.

In fact, you'd be hard pressed to make the case that Kidd is even worth his salary. Consider that with New Jersey's famously mediocre roster, this season the Nets have performed better when Kidd is not on the floor. [My bad! Kidd's +/- is -38, but that doesn't mean they are more effective when he's sitting. It means, in this case, that they are getting outscored at all times and he's on the floor for more of it than his replacement. The Nets are, in fact, slightly better with him than without him.] I know, I know, there could be lots of reasons for that -- Kidd rests when the opposing stars rest. But he's supposed to be the best darn point guard in the land! Steve Nash and Chris Paul's teams get WAY worse when they leave the floor.

In fact, the same is true of the man Kidd would be replacing, if this rumored trade goes down: Devin Harris.

Some numbers:

* Offensive efficiency of the team Harris runs: second in the leagueDevin Harris
* Offensive efficiency of the team Kidd runs: 25th

* Harris current salary: Just under $4,000,000
* Kidd current salary: Just under $20,000,000

* Harris's age: 24
* Kidd's age: 34

* Devin Harris's PER: 18.64
* Jason Kidd's PER: 16.06

* According to 82games, for every 100 possessions Devin Harris is on the floor, Dallas scores almost 12 points more than the same number of possesions without Harris.
* With Kidd, that number is five.

* When Harris is on the court, the Mavericks have outscored opponents by 217 points this season. When he is off the court, the Mavericks have been outscored by 11. Harris is, therefore, +228.
* When Kidd is on the court, the Nets have been outscored by 154. When he is off the court the Nets have been outscored by 116. Kidd is, therefore, -38.

* Devin Harris's record in the NBA Finals: 2-4.
* Jason Kidd's record in the NBA Finals: 2-8.

[Hitman]

Jason Kidd is one of my favorite players of all time. I would love to see him play with Dirk.

But, I agree that it would be very foolish to trade Harris for Kidd. If there is a way to steal him for cap space I would go for it, but if not, then I would forget it.

[Flacolaco]

Offensive efficiency of the team Harris runs: second in the leagueDevin Harris
* Offensive efficiency of the team Kidd runs: 25th

* Harris current salary: Just under $4,000,000
* Kidd current salary: Just under $20,000,000

* Harris's age: 24
* Kidd's age: 34

* Devin Harris's PER: 18.64
* Jason Kidd's PER: 16.06

* According to 82games, for every 100 possessions Devin Harris is on the floor, Dallas scores almost 12 points more than the same number of possesions without Harris.
* With Kidd, that number is five.

That says it all. Nice find, my friend.

That is beautiful.

[G-Man]

Let me toss in a quote about Kidd from a Peter Vessey article posted over on the trade thread

"People are blinded by his triple doubles," said a respected member of the Nets franchise. "They fail to see he has become a high-priced role player." In other words, the Nets should take what they can get while they can get it, as long as they don't have to take back compost contracts. Then they should fumigate their arena.

If the Mavs want to do a big trade and spend a ton of money, maybe they should be looking at the 2 spot. Eddie Jones has helped a lot. Just image replacing him with someone who can defend, shoot and pass, but is under 30 and still has young legs. Think Mike Miller, Shawn Battier. Think somebody who is really worth a bunch of money, not someone living out the overpaid part of a contract earned before he got old.

[Dtownsfinest]

Why is everyone pushing for Mike Miller? I haven't followed his career so excuse my ignorance but how is he any different from when we acquired Keith Van Horn a couple of years ago? This team needs a slasher. Maggette is the guy i'd love to get or someone like him. The 3's won't fall forever. I don't care if its Mike Miller or Jason Kapono. They don't always fall and you can't rely on them. That's the problem this team faces IMO. When the 3's don't fall they still settle for them.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Why is everyone pushing for Mike Miller?

Because he is a 6'8" shooting guard/small forward. He shoots as well or better than Terry. He rebounds a lot better than Terry. He actually **PASSES** better than Terry. Just last year he was the Grizz's point guard for long stretches of games.

He has his faults... but:

Devin
Miller
Howard
Dirk
Damp

That is a good and balanced lineup. Good shooting, good slashing, good rebounding, defense....

[Dtownsfinest]

Where's the defense and slashing coming from? Adding Mike Miller gives you that? Another guy who's in love with shooting 3's is not something i'd look for with this team. Mike Miller doesn't put this team in any better position to win a championship than JET does. The two guard is a position that needs upgraded on this team but there are other needs that should be focused on which is a guy who can slash to the basket when his shot isn't falling and understands that's what he should do.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The two guard is a position that needs upgraded on this team but there are other needs that should be focused on which is a guy who can slash to the basket when his shot isn't falling and understands that's what he should do.

And who would that be?

[Dtownsfinest]

I'd like to think Corey Maggette but it seems he's not available. Shane Battier would be great but we'd probably have to over trade to get him here since he's in Houston. I'd prefer a guy who can hit the mid ranger consistently but doesn't fall in love with the jump shot. I don't know who that is or if he's out there.

[LonghornDub]

We need at least one other really good 3 PT shooter besides Jet (and Dirk on occasion). We have too many guys that can't make enough of them even when they're wide open. Eddie and JHo aren't bad, but I really think we need at least 2 guys over 40% from 3. Right now we have 1 (Terry).

[dude1394]

If we could somehow pry battier from houston I would absolutely love it. Houston really has no excuse for not being better than they are.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Where's the defense and slashing coming from? Adding Mike Miller gives you that? Another guy who's in love with shooting 3's is not something i'd look for with this team. Mike Miller doesn't put this team in any better position to win a championship than JET does. The two guard is a position that needs upgraded on this team but there are other needs that should be focused on which is a guy who can slash to the basket when his shot isn't falling and understands that's what he should do.

You are seriously underrating Mike Miller. To say that he isn't an upgrade over Jet is just plain asinine. He's got everything we need in a shooting guard. Yes, he can slash. He's no Maggette, but he can get into the paint. And yes, he can defend.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I'd like to think Corey Maggette but it seems he's not available. Shane Battier would be great but we'd probably have to over trade to get him here since he's in Houston. I'd prefer a guy who can hit the mid ranger consistently but doesn't fall in love with the jump shot. I don't know who that is or if he's out there.

Miller is better than Battier at this point in their careers.

[dude1394]

The reason I would rather have battier than miller is that I want a bruce bowen type. Someone who doesn't care about scoring at ALL, but will hit a three.

I don't think miller would give that type of defensive presence.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

You are seriously underrating Mike Miller. To say that he isn't an upgrade over Jet is just plain asinine. He's got everything we need in a shooting guard. Yes, he can slash. He's no Maggette, but he can get into the paint. And yes, he can defend.

Mike Miller is a hard-hittin' mo-fo. You're damn right that he is leagues above both Terry and Battier. (Battier is a good player, even still, but he's nowhere near the complete player that Miller is.) If you swap Terry for Miller, you instantly change the entire outlook of your team.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

The reason I would rather have battier than miller is that I want a bruce bowen type. Someone who doesn't care about scoring at ALL, but will hit a three.

I don't think miller would give that type of defensive presence.

I hear you, and I would certainly not take a pass on Battier. But Spiral is right about Miller, in that he is underrated. Environment plays a big role. What can you really do in Memphis? But put that kid on this Mavs team, and just sit back and appreciate what he brings to the table. He would work his ass off on the defensive end.

[dude1394]

I like miller a lot, I'm a little concerned about having too many offensive dudes and not a defensive guy out there.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by dude1394

The reason I would rather have battier than miller is that I want a bruce bowen type. Someone who doesn't care about scoring at ALL, but will hit a three.

I don't think miller would give that type of defensive presence.

Isn't that what Eddie Jones is? A Bruce Bowen type?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I like miller a lot, I'm a little concerned about having too many offensive dudes and not a defensive guy out there.

Tennessee can play a little defense, right? My concern right now is having enough offensive guys out there. If we want to go defense at that spot, we've got guys already. (Though, granted, without the offensive prowess to knock down that three regularly, like Bowen.)

But this Miller? Kid can play both ways. He's just a baller. I'd kill to have him on this team.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Isn't that what Eddie Jones is? A Bruce Bowen type?

yes, but he's a very poor man's bruce bowen. 5 years ago yes, but now he looks pretty slow.

[chumdawg]

Yeah, Eddie Jones isn't a Bruce Bowen type. He can fill it up when he gets hot, way better than Bowen ever did, but he doesn't have the defensive wherewithal. That is certainly not his role.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight

And who would that be?

Andre Iguoala is the man, he is in his last year with the 76ers and they may want to trade him rather than lose him to free agency

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

Andre Iguoala is the man, he is in his last year with the 76ers and they may want to trade him rather than lose him to free agency

Son, keep it to one thread at a time. And really, it's never gonna happen.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Why is everyone pushing for Mike Miller? I haven't followed his career so excuse my ignorance but how is he any different from when we acquired Keith Van Horn a couple of years ago? This team needs a slasher. Maggette is the guy i'd love to get or someone like him. The 3's won't fall forever. I don't care if its Mike Miller or Jason Kapono. They don't always fall and you can't rely on them. That's the problem this team faces IMO. When the 3's don't fall they still settle for them.

Does Devin Harris not qualify as a slasher? I know Josh Howard sometimes falls in love with his jumper, but he can take it to rim when he wants to. I'd much rather have a guy like Mike Miller on the court when we have Devin out there than Corey Maggette. I'd honestly think we would have too many slashers and not enough shooter if we added corey maggette. Oh, and I also really don't like Maggette. Something about his game always sat wrong with me.

[FINtastic]

And let's not make Mike Miller out to be a Jason Kapono/Kyle Korver type where all he does is shoot threes. Look at his stat page:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3404

The dude is averaging 6.8 rebounds and 3.7 assists a game. Not bad for a 2/3.

[FINtastic]

I'm kinda at the point that I'll be ticked if Mike Miller gets traded away to another team for nothing, and the Mavs never got in on it.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

You have a point, but Chum was advocating for a "true" point guard. I don't think you have to have one at all.

The Spurs have won 4 titles in the last 9 years without a great "quarterback" at any position. My apologies to Avery and Tony Parker, but that's just the truth.

Also, I think it's worth noting that Devin is just 24 years old (he turns 25 at the end of the month). His career has been on a steady upward trend. He may not ever be Steve Nash in terms of court vision, but I personally see his passing skills improving over time, and it may be that he is a guy who eventually gives you 20-22 ppg and 6-7 apg rather than being the 10-11 apg type. Is that so wrong? The real problem is that Devin is the only guard we have that can create. We need another guy with ballhandling skills who can pass pretty well playing at the SG spot.

Mike Miller would fit the bill nicely, I think.

The Spurs have Ginobli don't forget. If we can get a guy like that to play next to Devin then it might work, although Parker still has more sense of where the ball needs to go than Devin at this point (this is probably due to Pop). I haven't watched Miller enough to know if he has the creative abilities of Ginobli or not, but he's obviously an upgrade over Terry.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

What? No Marbury on your list? No Steve Francis?

So this is going to be an ongoing thing for you, huh.

You sound like one of those football wives who needs to take a Football for Dummies course so she can sit with her husband during the Super Bowl and not have him dump bean dip on her head.

I hope you enjoy watching the cheerleaders, because hell knows what you see going on in the game.

What the heck are you talking about. So in that list where does Parker fit?
So he's above nash, bdavis, deonwilliams, ai, billups, kidd??

And you sound like what you normally do, silly. So are you saying that Nash = Stevie Franchise? You really should think before you type.

[Five-ofan]

the problem you are missing dtown isnt that we take too many threes. its that we have poor shooters who take too many threes.

[Janett_Reno]

I would not consider Dirk 47% and 40% from three a poor shooter. Terry at 45% and 43% from three, i would not consider a bad shooter either. I think Harris is a good shooter also.

I feel we could beat most nba teams in a game of horse. Why we have been shooting alot of threes is because we can't penetrate and we are stuck standing around at the three line.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

I feel we could beat most nba teams in a game of horse.

Just off the top of my head, Golden State and Phoenix both would destroy us.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

I would not consider Dirk 47% and 40% from three a poor shooter. Terry at 45% and 43% from three, i would not consider a bad shooter either. I think Harris is a good shooter also.

I feel we could beat most nba teams in a game of horse. Why we have been shooting alot of threes is because we can't penetrate and we are stuck standing around at the three line.

if dirk was shooting 40% from three this year our shooting would be fine. and as much as i love devin his shooting isnt a strength. (hes gotten good enough to keep people honest this year) I mean mostly in reference to stack, hassell, and jones. which coupled with dirks sucking from three this year has made us a much weaker 3pt shooting team.

[Janett_Reno]

I feel Dirk and Terry can stand still and shoot with anyone. I feel Harris can shoot also. Phx is great shooters because of a man named Steve Nash. They shoot layups and dunks. Plus Nash can flat shoot. Baron Davis is also very good but i agree they do have alot of shooters on that team but again it only works if they move and have penetration.

[Janett_Reno]

We have to have a Steve Nash, Parker, to open our guys up and the one we have is named Harris. I feel he is plenty good to run our team.

Why i am afraid of a Kidd/Harris trade. Kidd is such a good player and his rebounding is amazing for a pg. He is so so much better than any of our guys with his hand tied behind his back with ast. He isn't as good a shooter but i do agree we need a pg that can ast and get our players ope shots and involed.

This is where he scares me. Kidd is so good in a full court game like Phx and GS play. Now when we get in the playoffs or play these elite teams, like the last two. They will not let you play full court. It comes down to a series like we have with Miami.

In the playoffs, from a dead stand still, can Kidd penetrate and go to the basket when it is great defense on him? Can he just raise up and shoot? These two things i am very impressed with Harris. Wade did that to us. Kidd helps us but no way i give up Harris. Cassell is old but i also feel he helps us. Someone mentioned in here, teams want Howard, Harris or Dirk and those are thre three the Mavs do not want to trade.

If you go another route that takes pressure off our shooters and opens them up, is a center that can score. It is reports Miami is shopping Shaq but i guess he is making a mint and slowed down but yes if he was not hurt, he would help. Will we make a move or go with what we have? Who knows.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

I would not consider Dirk 47% and 40% from three a poor shooter. Terry at 45% and 43% from three, i would not consider a bad shooter either. I think Harris is a good shooter also.

I feel we could beat most nba teams in a game of horse. Why we have been shooting alot of threes is because we can't penetrate and we are stuck standing around at the three line.

I think avery is pretty right on his take. If you have good threes you shoot 'em. Tonight we had contested shots and shots up against the shot clock all night.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

if dirk was shooting 40% from three this year our shooting would be fine. and as much as i love devin his shooting isnt a strength. (hes gotten good enough to keep people honest this year) I mean mostly in reference to stack, hassell, and jones. which coupled with dirks sucking from three this year has made us a much weaker 3pt shooting team.

Throwing hassel in there is kinda non-sequitor isn't it? I mean he doesn't shoot threes.. Let's check the tape.

He's 33% (1-3).

I'll back up, since on re-reading you are talking about our 3pt shooting ability. But he really shouldn't (and doesn't) shoot 'em.