There's Hope...

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Not really. Potential is gold when it comes to trades. Especially for a team looking to rebuild like NJ was. That's the thing that I think is being overlooked. They needed to move Kidd. He had become a pain in the ass and they knew they they weren't making anymore runs. Even in the East. When you can replace a declining player with a player with potential, that's usually a good trade.

Also, Devin is good now so there is no bust potential. You're either going to get a good player or a really good player.

The trouble is, D2K, that you evidently like to have it both ways. Earlier in the thread you were saying that we got raped by making a "desperate" move, upping the ante while New Jersey was willing to just walk away from the deal if they didn't get exactly what they wanted. If that's the case, you can't come back and say that NJ "needed" to move Kidd, because he was a pain in the ass and declining and whatever other barbs you threw at him.

Which was it? Was New Jersey willing to walk away from the Mavs' "insufficient" offer until so much as they had fleeced us, as they were more than willing to stick with their Hall-of-Fame point guard...or was New Jersey in a hurry to move a declining pain-in-the-ass?

Pick a stance, and then maybe we can figure it out. Were they more than willing to say no to (Avery's boy) Devin Harris, he of the hugacious upside, if they didn't get those first-rounders to boot? For a declining pain-in-the-ass? To hear you tell it, they should have jumped at Harris by himself, taken on some bad contracts to boot, and then laughed all their way to the bank.

[vashjan]

I have come to a realization that Avery was very good initially because he copied Greg popovich's system to the tee. he tried to make Devin harris like TP, tried to force Dirk to be like Duncan, he didn't have anybody to be like Manu...but guess what, when people figured the Mavs out, he did not have any more creativity, he spent all his time copying forgot to create and figure it out..i also think he doesn't have the ability to create and foster an offensive system and a defensive system...that is why there is no team out there who is interested in him being their head coach..

players will buy into a system if it works..but sooner or later if the system doesn't evolve to include players strengths and tendencies and make the best of it..players will tune you out. You cannot have an authorative my way or the highway approach without including others.. that will lead to failure everywhere...in sports, corporate america...everywhere..

with that, I concur with the post that says, we are not in bad shape as we look like..we wil be ok. I think we make the western conference finals next year...

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The trouble is, D2K, that you evidently like to have it both ways. Earlier in the thread you were saying that we got raped by making a "desperate" move, upping the ante while New Jersey was willing to just walk away from the deal if they didn't get exactly what they wanted. If that's the case, you can't come back and say that NJ "needed" to move Kidd, because he was a pain in the ass and declining and whatever other barbs you threw at him.

Which was it? Was New Jersey willing to walk away from the Mavs' "insufficient" offer until so much as they had fleeced us, as they were more than willing to stick with their Hall-of-Fame point guard...or was New Jersey in a hurry to move a declining pain-in-the-ass?

Pick a stance, and then maybe we can figure it out. Were they more than willing to say no to (Avery's boy) Devin Harris, he of the hugacious upside, if they didn't get those first-rounders to boot? For a declining pain-in-the-ass? To hear you tell it, they should have jumped at Harris by himself, taken on some bad contracts to boot, and then laughed all their way to the bank.

I’m not trying to have it both ways. NJ was in a position where they would have been best served by moving Kidd but they weren't willing to do it unless someone overpaid. We were that someone. The fact that we weren't able to use the leverage that Kidd was providing with his antics leads me to believe that there was a stare down and we blinked first. We weren't willing to walk away.

I'll pose the question to you again. Do you think that we could move Kidd for a good young player that has shown steady improvement, a competent back up center and two #1's?

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I'll pose the question to you again. Do you think that we could move Kidd for a good young player that has shown steady improvement, a competent back up center and two #1's?

Actually, that is quite a different question than you first asked. You originally asked if the Mavs could get a deal "remotely" as good as they gave....now you're asking could they get a deal identical to it.

I don't think they could get the same deal...but I do think that at the deadline they could get a "remotely" similar deal talent-wise.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

What money? Do you think any team out there is going to spend half the MLE on him? I don't. He's not exactly highly sought after. He's not part of New Jersey's plans. I don't see there being any kind of Diop sweepstakes.

Look at it this way. We gave him ~$2MM a year just for being tall. Three years later he's still tall and now he's shown himself to be a useable player. Somebody will give him half of their MLE.

[alby]

I'm one of the biggest Devin fans around but the kid is overrated on this board. I mean, towards the end of the season Lawrence Frank benched him in favor of Marcus Williams because he couldn't hit an open shot in the pick and roll. He's entering his 5th year and people are still talking about potential? Give me a freakin' break. The guy who everyone has tried to compare him to, Tony Parker (who is only one year older by the way), already has 3 rings and is a consistent 19/6 guy. Sure, Devin may go on to average 20 points at one point in his career in this league but he will never become a great distributor or a floor leader, and I highly doubt he's going to have a Tim Duncan-like player to play along with to cover up a lack of passing from the PG position. Dallas needed someone that players/coaches can follow and we were not going to get that with Devin, and Avery had already lost the team at that point. One of the things I will never forget about Devin is looking over at the bench every single time he made a mistake, the guy lacks pure confidence and that will hinder him in the long run. With Dirk/JET/Howard, there was no way they were going to win having a PG like that imho. The trade sucked if you are talking about the future of the Mavericks. But, I could care less about the future for now. I want to win now. I want Dirk to win now. If we do sign Diop this offseason, ultimately the deal turns out to be Devin/Trenton/Ager/1st round/1st round for Kidd/Diop/Malik/Antoine/Maglorie.

[dude1394]

I disagree with the statement about Devins lack of confidence. I don't see it. He may have looked over to the bench at little Napoleon, but that was the price of getting on the floor.

During the GSW series, he was unpertrubed. I don't think he has any problem with confidence and that's the biggest reason I think he has some upside. He may be too coachable (like our superstar) to be saddled with the littlest colonel as the ko'ach.


Heh...I got 'em all in there that time!

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by sike

Actually, that is quite a different question than you first asked. You originally asked if the Mavs could get a deal "remotely" as good as they gave....now you're asking could they get a deal identical to it.

I don't think they could get the same deal...but I do think that at the deadline they could get a "remotely" similar deal talent-wise.

You're right, I should have been more specific the first time I asked the question. Looking at it from NJ's perspective, they were trading him as a player, not an expiring contract. If we were to do the same, I don't think that we could get a similar package just a few months later.

But yea, as the deadline approaches we may be able to move him for a big name player if Cuban is willing to take on the contract. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I'll pose the question to you again. Do you think that we could move Kidd for a good young player that has shown steady improvement, a competent back up center and two #1's?

Well, this is getting perilously close to that old thing about how you can never step foot in the same river twice. I mean, all "two #1's" are not created equal. What they mean to one team at one time is not necessarily even remotely similar to what they mean to another.

But to try to answer your question...I expect that we could make quite a haul from dealing Kidd at the deadline next February. Whether it's a good young player making improvement, along with a backup big and draft picks, I don't know (or care). But I know it would be a haul.

And of course, there is no sense in arguing that Kidd's trade value at the deadline next year is irrelevant to this year's trade. There was some implicit future value for Kidd, just as some believe there is for Harris, even if in a different way.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, this is getting perilously close to that old thing about how you can never step foot in the same river twice. I mean, all "two #1's" are not created equal. What they mean to one team at one time is not necessarily even remotely similar to what they mean to another.

But to try to answer your question...I expect that we could make quite a haul from dealing Kidd at the deadline next February. Whether it's a good young player making improvement, along with a backup big and draft picks, I don't know (or care). But I know it would be a haul.

And of course, there is no sense in arguing that Kidd's trade value at the deadline next year is irrelevant to this year's trade. There was some implicit future value for Kidd, just as some believe there is for Harris, even if in a different way.

I agree with your first and third points. I just think that, even when you consider the length of his contract, we overpaid. Although I will concede that Cuban probably doesn't pull the trigger if Kidd has 3.5 years remaining and not 1.5. At least I hope not.

On your second point, I don't think we'll be able to get young players or draft picks. It's more likely that the players available for Kidd will be big names that are a little overpaid so their teams are looking to dump them and rebuild. Of course, to capitalize on an opportunity like that Cuban will have to be willing to take back a big contract with additional years.

Ironically our lack of draft picks could make that kind of deal a little tougher.

[ghazi]

HOw could we win a title without Kidd.~~

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Look at it this way. We gave him ~$2MM a year just for being tall. Three years later he's still tall and now he's shown himself to be a useable player. Somebody will give him half of their MLE.

If someone the sweepstakes involves all the teams throwing the same amount of money (Half of the MLE), we're easily going to win, no contest. If a team is pretty good and just needs a big (maybe Utah) then if they throw all of the MLE at him, then it's a problem. But if they do that, I think it's a pretty big upfront investment on him. We've all said that half of the MLE is right in our wheelhouse and that's where it should stick for his actual value.

If this ends up being:
Devin/Ager/Hassell/ 2 picks for Kidd/Diop/Wright/Allen/Maggs

I can't really say it's a bad deal. We gave up one who obviously did something for us but the other 4 parts are either very spare parts or parts we really didn't have time to wait on or wouldn't have gotten a chance either way. We have 3 parts in (Kidd, Diop, Wright) that will all produce on some level over the year. I don't see that as bad at all. Are Kidd, Diop and Wright going to bring more than what Devin did...I would say so.

As for if you traded Kidd at the deadline, would the deal be comparable or however you want to word it. It really depends on the team who you trade with. If it's a competing team then you might get one potential player, or a few picks and some contracts. If it's a bottom ending team, you could get a deal similar to what we gave up in the first place.
It all really depends on the team.

[sike]

Originally Posted by alby

I'm one of the biggest Devin fans around but the kid is overrated on this board....He's entering his 5th year and people are still talking about potential? Give me a freakin' break.

Its a little harsh...but this might actual be totally true.

The trade sucked if you are talking about the future of the Mavericks. But, I could care less about the future for now. I want to win now. I want Dirk to win now. If we do sign Diop this offseason, ultimately the deal turns out to be Devin/Trenton/Ager/1st round/1st round for Kidd/Diop/Malik/Antoine/Maglorie.

I want to win now, too. And, personally, I like that they are going for it.

[BGMaverick9]

I agree. This team has been on the cusp for a few years, it's time to make a big charge and try to get the ring.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by ghazi

HOw could we win a title without Kidd.~~

We were two wins away from the championship with Jet as the point guard. Don't you remember??

[ShaggyDirk]

Originally Posted by alby

I'm one of the biggest Devin fans around but the kid is overrated on this board. I mean, towards the end of the season Lawrence Frank benched him in favor of Marcus Williams because he couldn't hit an open shot in the pick and roll. He's entering his 5th year and people are still talking about potential? Give me a freakin' break. The guy who everyone has tried to compare him to, Tony Parker (who is only one year older by the way), already has 3 rings and is a consistent 19/6 guy. Sure, Devin may go on to average 20 points at one point in his career in this league but he will never become a great distributor or a floor leader, and I highly doubt he's going to have a Tim Duncan-like player to play along with to cover up a lack of passing from the PG position. Dallas needed someone that players/coaches can follow and we were not going to get that with Devin, and Avery had already lost the team at that point. One of the things I will never forget about Devin is looking over at the bench every single time he made a mistake, the guy lacks pure confidence and that will hinder him in the long run. With Dirk/JET/Howard, there was no way they were going to win having a PG like that imho. The trade sucked if you are talking about the future of the Mavericks. But, I could care less about the future for now. I want to win now. I want Dirk to win now. If we do sign Diop this offseason, ultimately the deal turns out to be Devin/Trenton/Ager/1st round/1st round for Kidd/Diop/Malik/Antoine/Maglorie.

I am starting to like you...gradually.

[LSMF]

Im tired of hearing Kidd at this point of his career is better than Devin and that Mavs fans want to win now. I know I'm a Devin Homer but I love Kidd also so don't think Im biased, Kidd is in his twilight right now which is why Devin is the better player. Lets look at the Numbers for the 29 games Kidd played with us he averaged 9 points and 9 assists, and in the Playoffs he was totally invisible he averaged 8 points and 6 assists and had did very bad when he was guarding cp3, when Devin was here before the trade he averaged 14 points and 5 assists and before he got injured he was really starting to blossom and I think we had the second best record in the ultra tough west at the time he went down.

Devin is the better player right now imo, his defense is good, his passing would be good if we had a motion offense, he would have been even better if Avery didn't micromanage every step he took,His scoring took pressure off Dirk. KIdd at this point on offense can be a liability offensively because of his terrible jumper and his inability to get into the paint and on Defense quick point guards can abuse him. And don't get me wrong I dont hate Kidd at all I love the guy but thats just my honest opinion on him, hes not the same player he was a couple of years ago. We had a better chance of winning now if we still had Devin, but because there will be changes in the roster and there has been a change in coaching I think we will do very well this year.

[ShaggyDirk]

well, hypothetically speaking, Devin Harris is the greatest point guard of all time.... and I have a third leg.

[BGMaverick9]

This is strictly off the passing note you made:

If we go off of your numbers, Kidd's passing was better in an offense that wasn't catered to him: an ISO.
The motion offense is better suited for him, so if he did those numbers in a system that isn't his preferred, you can think he'll have better numbers. You're assuming that for Devin, so it can be done for Kidd as well.
If Devin's passing totals are assumed to be better than what they were, that doesn't mean they would still be better than Kidd's.

If Devin's scoring took pressure off of Dirk, why was there still feelings that Dirk's energy and demeanor were down? And did his energy not go up with Kidd coming in?

You still also have to take into consideration that fact that Devin's defense and attacking style wore him down and he got hurt. It always happens, when he started to get going...he got hurt.

Like alby said, it's year 5 and still using potential, when does it stop?

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

This is strictly off the passing note you made:

Kidd's passing was better in an offense that wasn't catered to him: an ISO.
The motion offense is better suited for him, so if he did those numbers in a system that isn't his preferred, you can think he'll have better numbers. You're assuming that for Devin, so it can be done for Kidd as well.
If Devin's passing totals are assumed to be better than what they were, that doesn't mean they would still be better than Kidd's.

If Devin's scoring took pressure off of Dirk, why was there still feelings that Dirk's energy and demeanor were down? And did his energy not go up with Kidd coming in?

You still also have to take into consideration that fact that Devin's defense and attacking style wore him down and he got hurt. It always happens, when he started to get going...he got hurt.

Like alby said, it's year 5 and still using potential, when does it stop?

People say Dirk was energized when Kidd came but most of the time I still saw Dirk smothered by defenders, the reason why everyone wanted the Kidd trade was becuase Dirk was working so hard on offense and because he was constantly being smothered by defenders. The Kidd trade did not solve any of that mess, Dirk was still smothered and most of the time Dirk was still working hard on offense to create his shot. What was the point of the trade then??

And im not sure why Dirk's energy was down but I know it wasn't because of Devin, the things that made Dirk's energy and demeanor down imo were: He was screwed by rigged officiating in the 06 finals, the team got owned by the Warriors because Avery could not find a way to make the team effective even though Dirk was being double and tripled teamed EVERY time he touched the ball. Those losses were what made Dirk a bit sad imo, when he heard Kidd was coming in he began to see things in a different light and that energized him but he made a mistake that many Mavs fans make, When Dirk thought of Jason Kidd he thought of the younger Jason kidd, the Jason kidd that was quick and strong and was a stellar defender. But in reality we were getting an older Kidd, who can't really score much, doesn't have the quickness anymore and is now only an Average defender. This is just my two cents.

[sike]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

The Kidd trade did not solve any of that mess, Dirk was still smothered and most of the time Dirk was still working hard on offense to create his shot. What was the point of the trade then??

was the idea of the trade to make Jason Kidd a baseline spot up shooter? Because it seemed to be Avery's.

And im not sure why Dirk's energy was down but I know it wasn't because of Devin

Dirk was quoted saying with Kidd here he gets the ball in better spots than at any other time in his career...it wasn't throwing Devin under the bus, but it was certainly Dirk's nice way of saying, "Devin couldn't pass as well as we need our pg to."

When Dirk thought of Jason Kidd he thought of the younger Jason kidd, the Jason kidd that was quick and strong and was a stellar defender. But in reality we were getting an older Kidd, who can't really score much, doesn't have the quickness anymore and is now only an Average defender. This is just my two cents.

You assume much, young padawan.

[dirno2000]

I'm one of the biggest Devin fans around but the kid is overrated on this board. I mean, towards the end of the season Lawrence Frank benched him in favor of Marcus Williams because he couldn't hit an open shot in the pick and roll. He's entering his 5th year and people are still talking about potential? Give me a freakin' break.

We still talk about potential because he's still getting better. It's simple really.

But again, he's pretty good right now so potential isn't the only thing he brings to the table. I'll take 15 and 6 with good defense from a PG that still has room to grow. Last year his +/- was second to only Dirk on the Mavs and among the best in the leage. So even at his current level he's a contributor.

Parker's been in the league since he was 19 and logged more minutes early on so I'd expect him to be more advanced. Experience is more important than age.

If we do sign Diop this offseason, ultimately the deal turns out to be Devin/Trenton/Ager/1st round/1st round for Kidd/Diop/Malik/Antoine/Maglorie.

Like others in this thread you're ignoring the fact that we traded away his bird rights so signing him means less money to fill other holes. That's why ammending the trade to take Diop out doesn't work unless you can add back in the unknown player that we can't afford.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

That's why ammending the trade to take Diop out doesn't work unless you can add back in the unknown player that we can't afford.

its not unknown...they are either going for Diop or this guy:

[ghazi]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

People say Dirk was energized when Kidd came but most of the time I still saw Dirk smothered by defenders, the reason why everyone wanted the Kidd trade was becuase Dirk was working so hard on offense and because he was constantly being smothered by defenders. The Kidd trade did not solve any of that mess, Dirk was still smothered and most of the time Dirk was still working hard on offense to create his shot. What was the point of the trade then??

And im not sure why Dirk's energy was down but I know it wasn't because of Devin, the things that made Dirk's energy and demeanor down imo were: He was screwed by rigged officiating in the 06 finals, the team got owned by the Warriors because Avery could not find a way to make the team effective even though Dirk was being double and tripled teamed EVERY time he touched the ball. Those losses were what made Dirk a bit sad imo, when he heard Kidd was coming in he began to see things in a different light and that energized him but he made a mistake that many Mavs fans make, When Dirk thought of Jason Kidd he thought of the younger Jason kidd, the Jason kidd that was quick and strong and was a stellar defender. But in reality we were getting an older Kidd, who can't really score much, doesn't have the quickness anymore and is now only an Average defender. This is just my two cents.

This post is very pessimistic. So why did you start this thread? Quit giving me mixed messages!

I want optimism damn it.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by ghazi

This post is very pessimistic. So why did you start this thread? Quit giving me mixed messages!

I want optimism damn it.

I think the Trade for Devin wasn't the best trade we could have done but we will still do well because of the coaching changes and roster changes. Im not giving you mixed messages I was just talking about the stuff that happened LAST SEASON, there is much to be hopeful about Next Season.

[ghazi]

what does hopeful mean though. ability to contend? or ability to improve upon 51 regular season wins and a first round exit?

I want a title dammit but the lakers scare me.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by ghazi

what does hopeful mean though. ability to contend? or ability to improve upon 51 regular season wins and a first round exit?

I want a title dammit but the lakers scare me.

Dont be scared of anyone, We've got Dirk, Kidd, A rejuvenated(Hopefully) Josh Howard, C.J.Miles(I pray to god every night about this kid), Diop(?), Jet Terry,Bass and probably some good new players. Top that off with a Coach that is known for having a defense that is suffocating. Trust me well be fine, And by Hopeful I mean the ability to contend.

[ghazi]

that makes me feel better

MAVS IN '09!

[sike]

Originally Posted by ghazi

that makes me feel better

MAVS IN '09!

only 3 smile faces?...I'm more than a little disappointed, gaz.

[ghazi]

[sike]

Originally Posted by ghazi

+r

[u2sarajevo]

How about.....



edit: Did you know there is a limit to the number of smilies in a row you can type? I didn't..... until just now.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by sike

its not unknown...they are either going for Diop or this guy:

You wouldn't believe that guy's basketball I.Q.

[Kidd Karma]

Basically the issue is Kidd for this year, maybe next versus, Devin 3-4 seasons past Dirk's prime.

Kidd makes the game easier for his team, when his ability is tapped, which it wasn't. I'd rather my PG go 9-9 than 14-5. The 4 additional assists Kidd gets involves his teammates getting the rock in scoring opportunity. It gets those guys in the game, keeps them hustling on both ends of the floor. Kidd brings the intangibles to the table, same as MJ, when he would involve his teammates in the 1st 3 quarters of the game, passing, the ball, getting them set up, so when the 4th comes, he can keep them in the game....Kidd has that quality to get teammates involved early and often.

Would i have given up Devin and 2 1sts? Not at the cost money wise that I had to give up. I mean resigning KVH and paying the LT. I think NJ was a lot more desperate to move Kidd than Cuban was to get him. Thorn just has the experience in the business. Cuban should just have walked, there were no better offers on the table for Kidd. I don't think it would have gotten any better in the offseason either. No way I would have given the 2 1sts, the expiring deals and 3 million.....

[Eman]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Basically the issue is Kidd for this year, maybe next versus, Devin 3-4 seasons past Dirk's prime.

Kidd makes the game easier for his team, when his ability is tapped, which it wasn't. I'd rather my PG go 9-9 than 14-5. The 4 additional assists Kidd gets involves his teammates getting the rock in scoring opportunity. It gets those guys in the game, keeps them hustling on both ends of the floor. Kidd brings the intangibles to the table, same as MJ, when he would involve his teammates in the 1st 3 quarters of the game, passing, the ball, getting them set up, so when the 4th comes, he can keep them in the game....Kidd has that quality to get teammates involved early and often.

Would i have given up Devin and 2 1sts? Not at the cost money wise that I had to give up. I mean resigning KVH and paying the LT. I think NJ was a lot more desperate to move Kidd than Cuban was to get him. Thorn just has the experience in the business. Cuban should just have walked, there were no better offers on the table for Kidd. I don't think it would have gotten any better in the offseason either. No way I would have given the 2 1sts, the expiring deals and 3 million.....

Late first round picks aren't that big a deal. Teams are always selling their picks for $3 mill. Cuban will probably buy one anyway. And late first round picks are also hit and miss.
This isn't the NFL.

[rmacomic]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You wouldn't believe that guy's basketball I.Q.

Ok, I'll bite.

Who is this ginger kid?

[The Crippler]

Is that Robert Swift?

[bernardos70]

looks like mini Scalabrine. There aren't many redheads in the NBA that I know of.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Eman

Late first round picks aren't that big a deal. Teams are always selling their picks for $3 mill. Cuban will probably buy one anyway. And late first round picks are also hit and miss.
This isn't the NFL.

True....after the pick has been made, they aren't a big deal, then there's a 2 year commit, I guess a few seasons ago it was a 3 year commit. But it hurts you from a trade standpoint. Teams looking towards the future would love a pick and an expiring deal. I think that's where it handcuffs us the most. But if Cuban-Nelson sees someone they like, Cuban will have no problem opening up the wallet.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally Posted by sike

its not unknown...they are either going for Diop or this guy:

Isn't that Flaco?