Rumor: Josh Howard to Toronto - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dalmations202 · 01-07-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eman

Guys, Bargnani is not our backup PF. He canl play small forward for us and at 7foot with 1.4 blocks a game, pf and center.

In Bargnani's last 5 games his line was 18.2 points, 6.2 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, shooting OVER 50% and 50% from 3!!!!!

Anthony Parker is would be a solid starting 2, hits the three, scores 10 ppg, plays great defense and can pass.

We trade Josh, Diop, and Wright for a 7 footer that can score and rebound as much as Josh, shoots better, and can play center at times (instead of Diop). We also get a starting 2 for a project 2 (wright) and get much better 3 point shooting!

Damp/Bargnani/Dirk
Dirk/Bass
Bargnani/Singleton
Parker/Jet/Green
Kidd/JJB

That is a much more solid lineup 1-5,solid backups too. And guys, Bargnani is 23!!! He will get better.

The rumor also said we get someone else to match salaries.

Finally, It's never bad to get people in with more quality character than the people you are shipping out.

I think it's a good trade.
Eric

Bargnani and Dirk on the court together against many teams is asking for disaster. Two players without the quickness to keep up with SF's.

When we play Houston, who guards Artest? NO-Peja? etc.
Bargnani has some SF skills -- Dirk does as well -- but there is no way he plays D as a SF should.

Eman · 01-07-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Bargnani and Dirk on the court together against many teams is asking for disaster. Two players without the quickness to keep up with SF's.

When we play Houston, who guards Artest? NO-Peja? etc.
Bargnani has some SF skills -- Dirk does as well -- but there is no way he plays D as a SF should.

18 and 6 in with 1.4 blocks in his last 5 games and he's only 23----that's bargnani. We would use Parker or George to guard the Artest/Peja. We can afford to put George in because if we put Bargnani at Center, we have another scorer and don't need George to score! Singleton could be thrown in as well.

Bargnani
dirk
George/Singleton
Parker
Kidd

We will still have guys that play defense. Besides, how many times does Josh Howard play when he is not mentally there on D? Bargnani has the same offensive numbers as Josh, he blocks shots and shoots a higher percentage.

The rumor stated that we would have to take another player from Toronto. I wonder who that would be and if it would help solve any of our problems?

SMC0007 · 01-07-2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eman

18 and 6 in with 1.4 blocks in his last 5 games and he's only 23----that's bargnani. We would use Parker or George to guard the Artest/Peja. We can afford to put George in because if we put Bargnani at Center, we have another scorer and don't need George to score! Singleton could be thrown in as well.

Bargnani
dirk
George/Singleton
Parker
Kidd

We will still have guys that play defense. Besides, how many times does Josh Howard play when he is not mentally there on D? Bargnani has the same offensive numbers as Josh, he blocks shots and shoots a higher percentage.

The rumor stated that we would have to take another player from Toronto. I wonder who that would be and if it would help solve any of our problems?

UGH this lineup makes me ILL! Sorry but I have zero interest in Bargnani playing Center, that is laughable at best! I also have zero interest in D. George starting ever again. AB doesn't do one thing better than Dirk.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 12:02 PM

You know throwing JO out to Cuban and Donnie are going to make them take a HARD look at it. Someone is going to bite at that contract, that's a crapload of money coming off the books in the summer of 10. JO's injury concerns just worry the heck out of me. Damp becomes great insurance.

Problem is if you have Josh, Diop, Bass, Stack for JO and whatever...you're pretty much done dealing so you're going to need to be sure it's a deal you can run with for 1-2 years because most of the chips are gone at that point.

mac222b · 01-07-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

You know throwing JO out to Cuban and Donnie are going to make them take a HARD look at it. Someone is going to bite at that contract, that's a crapload of money coming off the books in the summer of 10. JO's injury concerns just worry the heck out of me. Damp becomes great insurance.

Problem is if you have Josh, Diop, Bass, Stack for JO and whatever...you're pretty much done dealing so you're going to need to be sure it's a deal you can run with for 1-2 years because most of the chips are gone at that point.

I have the same reservations about having no chips left. We would have a 1st rd. pick and JO's contract if he doesn't work out.

jthig32 · 01-07-2009, 12:23 PM

I have to say, I would give serious consideration to that trade involving O'Neal. I'm not sure we'd have enough offensive firepower after that trade, but I think I'd be willing to roll the dice.

Unloading Diop's terrible contract and picking up a 2009 first rounder from a struggling team is awfully enticing.

I really doubt Toronto would consider that exact deal though.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I have to say, I would give serious consideration to that trade involving O'Neal. I'm not sure we'd have enough offensive firepower after that trade, but I think I'd be willing to roll the dice.

Unloading Diop's terrible contract and picking up a 2009 first rounder from a struggling team is awfully enticing.

I really doubt Toronto would consider that exact deal though.

That's what I was saying, if you're Cuban and Donnie, you're really taking a hard look at O'Neal. He's a big man who will play in the post and it's a LOT (!) of money coming off for the big summer.

I have the injury concern and the offense concern you have, but I think there is a strong case for the Josh + by -.

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 12:28 PM

The biggest upside I see to this rumor is that Dallas is finally being discussed in trade rumors again (regardless of the source...)

It's fun to imagine!

ty · 01-07-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

The biggest upside I see to this rumor is that Dallas is finally being discussed in trade rumors again (regardless of the source...)

It's fun to imagine!

How will you feel when it doesn't happen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I actually see Toronto not doing this. But hey, if it did happen, at least Howard can bash the America national anthem in a different country and smoke some good Canadian skunk.

lol, excellent points

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ty

How will you feel when it doesn't happen?

I already know it won't happen - that's why it's fun to imagine!

(it's like buying a lotto ticket - you'll never win, but it's fun to fantasize about what you could do with the money...)

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 12:32 PM

Rumor is Oneal is on the table. Soo I would see what I can do with that. its all hard to figure out, but if we could get rid of Josh and get Oneal and a 2 guard that would be great.

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 12:54 PM

Realgm.com is reporting it too as a rumor

I think it would be a good trade...Parker is a good player...but I really want Bargnani, because I think under the right conditions he can develop into a really good player and I think he would do that here and it would be a steal. HOPE IT HAPPENS

jthig32 · 01-07-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Realgm.com is reporting it too as a rumor

I think it would be a good trade...Parker is a good player...but I really want Bargnani, because I think under the right conditions he can develop into a really good player and I think he would do that here and it would be a steal. HOPE IT HAPPENS

RealGM is reporting that HoopsWorld says it's a rumor. That is NOT the same thing as reporting the rumor themselves.

This is made up fiction.

Tokey41 · 01-07-2009, 12:56 PM

Not going to happen, Toronto's GM is a little something I like to call competent. If all they are getting for their two biggest expendable assets is Josh Howard then that team is dooming themselves. I doubt Oneal and Bargnani would be in a deal together.

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 01:07 PM

Can we put Bargnani in there instead of Parker??

because I would like to see

Oneal/Damp
Dirk/Bass/ Bargnani
Bargnani/Singleton / Green
Wright/Terry/Green
Kidd/JJ/Terry

Our line up would be Huge and yes our D would be Q but maybe Kidd, Damp, and Oneal could hold it down where Dirk and Bargnani struggle

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Can we put Bargnani in there instead of Parker??

because I would like to see

Oneal/Damp
Dirk/Bass/ Bargnani
Bargnani/Singleton / Green
Wright/Terry/Green
Kidd/JJ/Terry

Our line up would be Huge and yes our D would be Q but maybe Kidd, Damp, and Oneal could hold it down where Dirk and Bargnani struggle

I can't see Toronto giving up BOTH AB and O'Neal. They're reluctant to give up Andrea because they feel the second he goes away he will blow up. That defense would be scary bad I think.

I still don't get why Toronto is ready to give up Jermaine so quickly.

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I can't see Toronto giving up BOTH AB and O'Neal. They're reluctant to give up Andrea because they feel the second he goes away he will blow up. That defense would be scary bad I think.

I still don't get why Toronto is ready to give up Jermaine so quickly.

Yes I agree our 2 forward positions would be pretty bad on D, but I would roll the dice on that because imagine 3 7 footer on the floor, 2 that can shoot 3's and then possibly Terry or whoever with Kidd..that would just be sick

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Yes I agree our 2 forward positions would be pretty bad on D, but I would roll the dice on that because imagine 3 7 footer on the floor, 2 that can shoot 3's and then possibly Terry or whoever with Kidd..that would just be sick

AB would have to light it up to make up for the negatives on defense or it doesn't work properly. Right now, I don't think you can say we can count on that from Andrea. I don't want this to turn into Phoenix.

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

AB would have to light it up to make up for the negatives on defense or it doesn't work properly. Right now, I don't think you can say we can count on that from Andrea. I don't want this to turn into Phoenix.

Could you imagine our defense actually getting WORSE???

No thanks...

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

AB would have to light it up to make up for the negatives on defense or it doesn't work properly. Right now, I don't think you can say we can count on that from Andrea. I don't want this to turn into Phoenix.

I think Bargnani would surprise a lot of people. The guy is young and has ways to go, but mann I am telling you he would be great. As long as we have Kidd, Wright, Dap playing good D then we would be good, plus Dirk and Bargnani are 7 feet so even if the play bad D they would bother people

Kidd Karma · 01-07-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Yes I agree our 2 forward positions would be pretty bad on D, but I would roll the dice on that because imagine 3 7 footer on the floor, 2 that can shoot 3's and then possibly Terry or whoever with Kidd..that would just be sick

A few years ago, Minny had KG, Griffin and Kandi playing primarily defense, their length forced a lot of teams to just heave 15-20 footers. I think if our guys are aggressive in defending their zone, it could be a way to mask our obvious deficiency in the man.

Kidd Karma · 01-07-2009, 01:16 PM

Would love to get O'Neal in the deal too. Can't see why Toronto doesn't do it. Allows Bosh the ability to roam the paint freely. Diop becomes the defensive force in front of Bosh. Howard is the slasher offsetting Kapono's long range jacks.

hamb · 01-07-2009, 01:43 PM

1000 times no.

bargnani is the biggest bust in the history of busts. and having him on this team to prepare for dirk's eventual retiring is stupid! when dirk does hang 'em up we need to be a traditional team. not try to get a lesser version of dirk

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamb

1000 times no.

bargnani is the biggest bust in the history of busts. and having him on this team to prepare for dirk's eventual retiring is stupid! when dirk does hang 'em up we need to be a traditional team. not try to get a lesser version of dirk

Ummm Olowakandi??? Kwame?? Milicic??? Ohh and yee Bargnani is 23 soo he has a few years to get it together and if not hes still a better player then the above at leats good of the bench.

hamb · 01-07-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Ummm Olowakandi??? Kwame?? Milicic??? Ohh and yee Bargnani is 23 soo he has a few years to get it together and if not hes still a better player then the above at leats good of the bench.

he's up there in that list. have you seen him play? don't look at stats. bargs has no defensive game. and this is the best he's ever looked in his whole career and he looks like a white diop. and thats not saying much. no thank you.

vRookie · 01-07-2009, 01:44 PM

I guess the draw for the Mavs in this deal is that they will sustain the Dirk-advantage against other teams even when he is resting because Bargniani can fill in for him. They also get a decent shooting guard. However, they will still have a hole to fill at SF and they lose backup for Damp (we all know how that hurt us last season in the playoffs). Not to mention our starting 5 will have even more problems scoring. That's why I don't like this deal

darkwitzki · 01-07-2009, 01:56 PM

A white Diop ? lmao..

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-07-2009, 01:58 PM

I think some overrate Josh Howard.

Bargnani is 23, has tons of upside, 7 feet, can play the 3-5, and has Dirk-like skills. Josh is good, but good sfs are a dime a dozen in this league. Having a big with talent like Bargnani is rare. I'd do it in a minute.

I actually see Toronto not doing this. But hey, if it did happen, at least Howard can bash the American national anthem in a different country and smoke some good Canadian skunk.

alby · 01-07-2009, 02:09 PM

I would be in favor for any package not including Dirk/Kidd/JET for

1. Parker, Kapono, Bargnani
2. Parker, Kapono, Oneal
3. Parker, Moon, Kapono, Bargnani
4. Parker, Moon, Kapono, Oneal
5. Parker, Bargnani, Oneal
6. Kapono, Bargnani, Oneal

ty · 01-07-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

I would be in favor for any package not including Dirk/Kidd/JET for

1. Parker, Kapono, Bargnani
2. Parker, Kapono, Oneal
3. Parker, Moon, Kapono, Bargnani
4. Parker, Moon, Kapono, Oneal
5. Parker, Bargnani, Oneal
6. Kapono, Bargnani, Oneal

Heck yes.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

I would be in favor for any package not including Dirk/Kidd/JET for

1. Parker, Kapono, Bargnani
2. Parker, Kapono, Oneal
3. Parker, Moon, Kapono, Bargnani
4. Parker, Moon, Kapono, Oneal
5. Parker, Bargnani, Oneal
6. Kapono, Bargnani, Oneal

2 and 4 sound pretty dang good for me. If any of the deals are done I'll be open to it because Josh is leaving and we're getting talent in return, it's just a matter of does it pan out for us?

Has anyone noticed that that Raptors RealGM thread is up to 24 pages? Good lord..

LonghornDub · 01-07-2009, 02:48 PM

If we're talking about getting Kapono, then the trade is much more appealing. The original trade didn't mention him, and really would be sort of a terrible deal IMO.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

If we're talking about getting Kapono, then the trade is much more appealing. The original trade didn't mention him, and really would be sort of a terrible deal IMO.

Yeah "report" just suggested those particulars but the salaries did not work that way on Toronto's end, they would need to add a piece like Moon or Kapono for it to work. The big parts of the trade were centered, the minor pieces just needed to be tinkered.

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

If we're talking about getting Kapono, then the trade is much more appealing. The original trade didn't mention him, and really would be sort of a terrible deal IMO.

The original trade sucks and doesn't make much sense, but that doesn't mean the two teams aren't talking about SOMETHING...

Personally, I'd love to see JO/Parker/Kapono for Howard/Diop/Bass(Stack?), but I'd probably have a heart attack out of sheer joy if that happened...

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

The original trade sucks and doesn't make much sense, but that doesn't mean the two teams aren't talking about SOMETHING...

Personally, I'd love to see JO/Parker/Kapono for Howard/Diop/Bass(Stack?), but I'd probably have a heart attack out of sheer joy if that happened...

JO/Damp
Dirk/Singleton/Williams
Wright/Kapono/George
Parker/Jet/Green
Kidd/JJB

Right?

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

JO/Damp
Dirk/Singleton/Williams
Wright/Kapono/George
Parker/Jet/Green
Kidd/JJB

Right?

That's what I was thinking... It's a win-win situation for everybody:

1) Jermaine O'Neal - we'd finally get a low-post threat to line up with Dirk and catch feeds from Kidd, not to mention that he'd allow Dampier to finally be what he is at this point in his career - an excellent defensive backup...

2) Anthony Parker - a salty vet who can play defense and hit the three... We'd finally have our starting 2-guard! I'd love to see him & Kidd frustrate offenses on the perimeter...

3) Jason Kapono - another offensive spark coming off the bench - you can never have too many 3-point shooters when JET goes cold...

4) Josh Howard - allows him to "find himself" on another team... Sometimes change is good and I think we owe it to Josh to let him find it while he's still in his "prime" - I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see a Devin-like turnaround in his game with a simple change of scenery...

5) Brandon Bass - has an opportunity to flourish outside of Dirk's shadow... Let's face it - his talent is wasted in Dallas as long as Dirk is still in uniform (and he might actually be better paired up with Bosh...)

6) DeSagana Diop - for some reason he just isn't clicking in Dallas anymore... He's shown flashes of a player who deserves full-MLE at certain points in his career - maybe shouldering more of a load in Toronto could get him back on track?

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-07-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

The original trade sucks and doesn't make much sense, but that doesn't mean the two teams aren't talking about SOMETHING...

You may be right. Colangelo said they have had many conversations with the Mavs FO.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-07-2009, 02:58 PM

Well that rumor is dead. LOL Ingram shot down his own rumor...

Quote:

The Dallas Mavericks
are more than eager to move small forward Josh Howard, so much so that their front office has been calling other teams floating trade scenarios. They've even gone so far, of late, as to call one team saying they have a deal with another. In this case, the Mavs have told at least one other team that they are on the verge of sending Howard to the Toronto Raptors, as we reported this morning. The only flaw in their master plan appears to be that they didn't make sure the Raptors were on board with it.

According to Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo, they're not.

"I think it is fair to say that we are not content with our current position and we would explore any and all avenues of improving our team," said Colangelo via email. "However, none of our core players are being shopped. I have no deals of significance that are close to being completed or imminent, but later today we will announce a small tax-related deal."

Colangelo went on to say, in a subsequent conversation, that the Raptors are more than pleased with where Andrea Bargnani is developmentally, and that he has no idea where the ongoing rumors surrounding a trade for the former top overall pick in the draft are coming from. He has no interest whatsoever in trading Bargnani, not the Mavericks or anyone else.

Colengelo admitted that he has had frequent conversations with the Mavericks about a lot of different scenarios - including potential three-team deals - but that he would not be willing to include Bargnani in any such deal.

So while it's clear that the Mavericks are anxious to move Josh Howard, it appears the talk of the Raptors being involved are exaggerated at best.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=11152

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 03:00 PM

"Colengelo admitted that he has had frequent conversations with the Mavericks about a lot of different scenarios - including potential three-team deals - but that he would not be willing to include Bargnani in any such deal."

That's fine with me. All I want from Toronto is Jermaine O'Neal and Parker. At least this alludes to us actually actively shopping Howard.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

"Colengelo admitted that he has had frequent conversations with the Mavericks about a lot of different scenarios - including potential three-team deals - but that he would not be willing to include Bargnani in any such deal."

That's fine with me. All I want from Toronto is Jermaine O'Neal and Parker. At least this alludes to us actually actively shopping Howard.

The fact that he is known as a really sharp GM and FO guy, it's the battle of who is going to be the genius our FO or theirs? Can we get them to take Josh and possibly Diop's deal or can they set Josh straight?

Stein's line a few weeks ago
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=34472

both of these things combined does mean they are trying to get rid of him. Just find something decent!!!