Thanks, Bush, we really appreciate what you have done for us

[bernardos70]

All you need to know about Bush:

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

hmmmmmm......cost of freedom, refer to post were taliban is stronger

hmmmmmm....your sources are old, the 2 trillion number can be googled, its the project cost by 2010


hmmmmmm......thats the last thing i gotta say about this. u've proven your skills. here's a wonderful defense to anything anyone else says in the future.

freedom, democracy, terror, 9/11

So my sources are 2 years old, you are saying it's going to be 2trillion? Link please. And lancet links need not apply.

Freedom for 50million souls, the left says..f'em.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Freedom? What kind of Freedom???


Are you referring to the freedom for every US citizen to receive a fair trial?

The freedom for people to defend themselves against a tyrannical government?

Or are we talking about the good, old freedom of speech to question the government when there's reasonable suspicion of corruption?



(all links 100% Kos-free - those guys are on the opposite end of the same bullsh!t spectrum as FOX...)

Oh I get it, the US is the new soviet union. What a moron. I always find it comical how the left can look the other way when sadaam is poking out eyes, raping wives, etc. and somehow you find the US to be the culprit.

IF 1/100th of the crap the left felt was occurring in this country was actually occurring, their heads would be on a stake. You don't have to go away mad, just go away.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Oh I get it, the US is the new soviet union. What a moron. I always find it comical how the left can look the other way when sadaam is poking out eyes, raping wives, etc. and somehow you find the US to be the culprit.

IF 1/100th of the crap the left felt was occurring in this country was actually occurring, their heads would be on a stake. You don't have to go away mad, just go away.

I agree - screw the left!

Now, did you have something to say about my post, or were you just searching for some common ground between you & I? (in which you succeeded - I probably hate leftist/liberal/Democrats as much as you do...)

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by dude1394

hmmm...wonder how much that freedom's worth?

I think I get it now.... War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength. You are a great little worker bee. There is nothing wrong with deconstructing language to maintain a worldview.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by ribosoma

I think I get it now.... War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength. You are a great little worker bee. There is nothing wrong with deconstructing language to maintain a worldview.

No more like freedom is priceless and 50million souls freed is a good thing, for those souls possibly the best thing.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

No more like freedom is priceless and 50million souls freed is a good thing, for those souls possibly the best thing.

death = freedom

I like it!

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by dude1394

No more like freedom is priceless and 50million souls freed is a good thing, for those souls possibly the best thing.

50 million souls freed from what, their bodies? War has always been about profit. That will never change. What is required to sell war is simply to rely upon the herd to buy into the propaganda, and you certainly have. History, to some, is merely what is displayed in textbooks. Who writes those textbooks? I can see by your thick layers of self-deception that killing others for profit is okay with you, even if you aren't profiting, and even if the population around the world is being culled in mass ritual sacrifice. It's all a house of cards... the fear that some have is that if they tug on one of those cards, the entire conglomeration of falsities will come tumbling down. I can understand that. I used to operate as a mirror of my conditioning, as well. I just think it might just be time that we created an alternative, as opposed to the normal routine of regurgitating falsehoods in order to shoehorn reality around our worldview.

"Hindsight shows how often yesterday's so-called truth may become today's absurdity. Real ability is to respect relative truth without damaging oneself by refusing to realize that it will be superseded. When you observe that today's controversies often reveal not relevance but the clash of the untaught with the wrongly taught, and when you can endure this knowledge without cynicism, as a lover of humankind, greater compensations will be open to you than a sense of your own importance or satisfaction in thinking about the unreliability of others."

- Idries Shah A Perfumed Scorpion

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Freedom? What kind of Freedom???


Are you referring to the freedom for every US citizen to receive a fair trial?

The freedom for people to defend themselves against a tyrannical government?

Or are we talking about the good, old freedom of speech to question the government when there's reasonable suspicion of corruption?



(all links 100% Kos-free - those guys are on the opposite end of the same bullsh!t spectrum as FOX...)

When I read this by Thomas Sowell I thought of you.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art..._thoughts.html

One way to reduce illegal immigration might be to translate some of our far left publications into Spanish and give everyone in Mexico subscriptions. After they read how terrible this country is, many may want to stay away.

[Flacolaco]

One way to reduce illegal immigration might be to translate some of our far left publications into Spanish and give everyone in Mexico subscriptions. After they read how terrible this country is, many may want to stay away.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Excellent find, Dude. It's so sad...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

When I read this by Thomas Sowell I thought of you.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art..._thoughts.html

Once again - what does "the left" have to do with anything I'm saying??? (the Democrats vote the same way as the Republicans on 9 out of 10 issues - the majority changes hands, but the results are always the same...)


You just admitted:

-You're comfortable with our government holding US citizens prisoner without allowing them their Constitutional Right to Due Process...

-You're comfortable with our government suspending our Constitutional Right to Habeas Corpus, thus stripping us of our means to defend ourselves from Martial Law (the same tactic the Red Coats used before we sent them packing back to foggy London...)

-You're comfortable with our government using excessive force to suppress our Constitutional Right to Free Speech...


You seem just as content to piss on the Constitution of the United States as our president does - in America, we call that "tyranny"... How quickly we forget how Adolf Hitler suspended the German Constitution to strip the German people of their rights shortly before he seized control of their government... Learn from history - don't make the same mistakes as the past...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Once again - what does "the left" have to do with anything I'm saying??? (the Democrats vote the same way as the Republicans on 9 out of 10 issues - the majority changes hands, but the results are always the same...)


You just admitted:

-You're comfortable with our government holding US citizens prisoner without allowing them their Constitutional Right to Due Process...

-You're comfortable with our government suspending our Constitutional Right to Habeas Corpus, thus stripping us of our means to defend ourselves from Martial Law (the same tactic the Red Coats used before we sent them packing back to foggy London...)

-You're comfortable with our government using excessive force to suppress our Constitutional Right to Free Speech...


You seem just as content to piss on the Constitution of the United States as our president does - in America, we call that "tyranny"... How quickly we forget how Adolf Hitler suspended the German Constitution to strip the German people of their rights shortly before he seized control of their government... Learn from history - don't make the same mistakes as the past...

You just don't see what a bunch of raving you are doing do you? Yup, we're nazi germany allright, we're the soviet gulags, etc.,etc.etc. You talk about not liking the left while you rant just like the left.

To be honest, your rantings aren't really worth the effort to me to review your links as I expect I know what I'll find. So I'll look at the first one. You state that it talks about freedom for every US citizen but nowhere in your link is even an imprisoned US citizen being discussed. These are all enemy combatants in gitmo. Now you may not agree with the way we are prosecuting these guys in gitmo but I have no problem with it whatsoever.

This complete link is talking about how other countries might treat our citizens so we should make nice-nice to the enemy-combatants we've captured, conveniently neglecting a very important part....that those "citzens" would have been non-uniformed enemy combatants that had been captured, not some dang tourist. I find it ludicrous how the left (and you) somehow think that dealing with Al Queda is the same as dealing with any other nation-state.

The author says that all of this would be fine and good if it weren't in gitmo but were in say bahrain. I guess that's a valid legal opinion but it also seems ridiculous imo.

So this link looks to me to be nothing more than a legal brief, not talking about US citizens but enemy-combatants and proposing that we bring all of these guys into our civil-courts instead of military tribunals where they belong. That would be great, they'd sit around filing briefts ad-infinitum with that sob Ramsey Clark helping them.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

You just don't see what a bunch of raving you are doing do you? Yup, we're nazi germany allright, we're the soviet gulags, etc.,etc.etc. You talk about not liking the left while you rant just like the left.

So you defend the government stripping us of our Constitutional Rights?

About the only thing you've established in this debate is that I'm a "leftist" while you've clearly ignored every tangible infringement of our rights that this administration has imposed on the people of this great land... I didn't know that upholding the Constitution of the United States of America was a leftist strategy - I thought it something that all Americans were bound to...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

So you defend the government stripping us of our Constitutional Rights?

About the only thing you've established in this debate is that I'm a "leftist" while you've clearly ignored every tangible infringement of our rights that this administration has imposed on the people of this great land... I didn't know that upholding the Constitution of the United States of America was a leftist strategy - I thought it something that all Americans were bound to...

Show me in that link where the guvment is stripping any US citizen of their rights.

[kappasigma]

i'm actually pretty conservative, but i only agree on war for just causes. wasn't the conqueroring of iraq about weapons of mass destruction? now its about freedom? what about all of the other countries that need freedom too? Like all of the war torn baltic and african nations?

if all of you info and thoughts comes from news on tv and the jewish owned media, then "it's working!!!! hahahahaha"

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Show me in that link where the guvment is stripping any US citizen of their rights.

Sorry, but I don't have the time (or desire) to hyperlink every violation of our Constitution to someone who doesn't seem to care in the first place - I'm sick of banging my head against a wall with you... Just declare your victory in this debate ("mission accomplished!") & continue to wallow in your ignorance...

I have Mavs talk to get back to (which happens to be a subject where I highly respect your opinion)... I'll see you in the General Mavs Discussion, where you & I tend to agree with each other more often than not...



But if you'd like to do your own homework:

1st Amendment - Freedom of Speech
4th Amendment - Search and Seizure
5th Amendment - Trial and Punishment
6th Amendment - Right to Speedy Trial
9th Amendment - Trial by Jury
11th Amendment - Judicial Limits
12th Amendment - Choosing the President
14th Amendment - Citizenship Rights

Article I, Section 9 - Limits on Congress (Habeas Corpus)
Article II, Section 2 - Civilian Power over Military
Article II, Section 4 - Disqualification (Impeachment)
Article III, Section 3 - Treason

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Show me in that link where the guvment is stripping any US citizen of their rights.

No show me in the link you've already provided. you can't because it doesn't. If you are going to use a link to make a point, at least make sure the link addresses the point.

[Janett_Reno]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Ending an illegal, unnecessary war against the citizens of Iraq = dishonoring soldiers???


My buddy in Iraq would disagree... He thinks people who blindly support this administration are the real ones dishonoring the troops by backing a war that many of our soldiers don't even believe in anymore - THEIR lives are the ones being put at risk for no good reason while OSAMA BIN LADEN IS ALIVE & WELL somewhere in the world (we're not even looking for that guy anymore!)... He says the only reason troops over there support the war is because they're in the middle of it - they HAVE to believe in it, otherwise they start losing limbs and lives...


He also says that out of the dozens of humans he's killed, very few (if any) were al Qaeda - most of the people he's engaged in combat have been "freedom fighters" (contrary to what our media reports) who simply want America out of their country... Imagine how you'd feel if every illegal immigrant in America had machine guns - would you just sit around and let them do whatever the hell they wanted to or would you blast them back to Mexico???

And mind you, we're not talking about some peace-nick here; my buddy is a killer (his word) for the US Army and LOVES what he does - when the Army needs folks dead, his unit is the first into combat... He loves America and our freedoms & would gladly die so you can sit safely behind your computer and suggest that his life would be be better spent terrorizing (his word) Iraqis than going after the people who had ANYTHING to do with 9/11 (our OWN government proved there was no connection between Iraq & al Qaeda until AFTER we invaded that country...)


I don't understand how you can equate "questioning tyranny" with "hating America" - if anything, pulling out of a war that should never have started in the first place is GOOD for this country... The war in Iraq isn't about fighting some abstract term such as "terrorism" (70% of al Qaeda operatives are in INDONESIA) - this war is about creating instability in the Middle East so Bush's private interests can suck up all the oil while the American people foot the bill (with OUR taxes and OUR lives...)

There is no exit strategy because the purpose of this war is to keep fighting the war - that is NOT what this country is about (and take your Nazi America-hating ass elsewhere if you think otherwise!)

Thanks for one of the best honest post on this board ever. Karl Rove, Fox News spin and tell the followers and cheerleaders what to say and do. We all know one in here and they are not told to answer anything but ask a question with your question. If you are unsure, they are told to say, if you do not support war, you are unamerican or you do not support the troops. Same thing as you are not for morals, faith and values, fishing and hunting.

The objective was never Iraq but Iran. Cheney and Bush want Iran and to go in. They have made such a blunder of Iraq and the American public knows what is going on and the troops are not staying quiet. They are speaking up. Even some of the Haliburton, Brown Root, Boots and Coots, drivers are very upset at things going on. Ask your buddy if he thinks it is right and if he likes to be told and his fellow soldiers to go out day and night guarding Haliburton trucks and the others i have mentioned? It is many programs on nightline, pbs and others showing documentaries of things going on that both sides are mad at and do not agree with. They know so many each night when they go out, and up the main road will be bombed. Go look who all is involved bombing them and at Iraqi checkpoints during the day and some of the same people that is "suppose" to be helping us.

They do not like running around the country doing things they are not suppose to be doing but being told to do. On the flip side, some Haliburton and the others i mentioned above are pissed because they are getting caught in ambushes, drug out of trucks, killed, limbs blowed off, and alot of them are pissed at the gov and troops because some say, they are not guarding us and letting it happen and we are an easy target and easy prey but they tell them they can make an easy quick cool 100 grand a year to go over there and drive a truck around.

All this is comming to a head. At first the tactic of saying if you do not speak good of war, then you are against the troops. The same thing as saying if you are not a Republican, then you have no faith or morals. Only W, Cheney and Rove have these things and you should follow them along with Rumsfield. The troops are speaking up and it is on tv alot of nights, the employes of some of these private no bid contract companies are speaking up. They have said wait a min, a 100 grand might not be worth my life and what i am seeing and doing plus it is comming to a head.

How far does all this go back to in the end? It will and is comming to the point. The troops did the job of going in and getting done what they was suppose to. Now they have them in stall mode, plus asking them to do things they shouldn't have to be made to do, when they should be home. They have blundered Iraq, Bush and Cheney with Rumsfield that the American public won't let them go in Iran now and this was what they wanted.

Please ask your friend, i want to know what he and the troops think. Who will end up with Iraq if we stay and who will end up with Iraq if we get out? The weapons of mass destruction and al queda in Iraq before we went in is and was a sham. Not true. Atleast they have found no wmd's yet. Why did Cheney want to take out Iraq and let Al Queda move in and fanatics? I was told by one in here because it would be a battle ground to face the terrorist.

I understand they wanted to free oil in Iraq and alot of this was about oil. We can't tell or make people be like us and do what we want with their resources. Would you like it to say you can't ever watch a Mavs game but you will be forced to watch China volleyball forever? Why aren't we after the guys from 9/11 and Bin Laden?

[Janett_Reno]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I like how you ignored 100% of my post except for the last line - it shows you don't want to have an open-minded discussion about the war so much as you want to list FOXNews' latest talking points... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

And please don't lump me in with other people you're debating because I could give a shit less about "the left" - I don't identify myself as one of those people, so don't pretend like you know my politics, ideas, or opinions just because you know theirs...

Again you are one of the smartest in here and again calling out what is being done. These two post have been two of the best on this board. He tried to answer you with Japan questions, Korea and Fox News. You was brillant enough to see this.

Again you are smart enough to know next he was going to call you a Democrat, no faith, no values, no morals.

No matter where you stand eople like Obama is already calling McCain, this adm out on making them answer questions and not giving Fox News answers. Thi is why McCain can't win. They are still in this same stradegy, going off in wonder land trying to answer things with questions, about Japan, Korea, faith, values, or you do not love the troops.

If you notice he did not answer anything you wrote about nor tackled any of it. I am surprised he didn't say all this has happened because Monica was with Bill Clinton.

[Janett_Reno]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think you've shown me which side of the political spectrum you are on. Yea those mean old israelis trying to live without getting their children blown to smithereens or rockets dropped on them everyday. Hogwash.

And have we made up our 500billion dollars lost in the terrorist attacks yet. You libs really go off the deep end when you let your love of socialism and hatred of capitalism show.

Yea we are really treating those afghanis bad aren't we. Helping them rid themselves of the taliban, you know govern themselves, etc...all while only hoping they can get it together so we can leave 'em alone.

Dude your playhouse is torn down. You attack people and some of these people are Republicans and Independents dude. Dude it is very sad they you are willing to throw your country away and you are the one with no morals because you will not speak the truth, stand up for right but all you desire in life is to make the usa and the world a Republican. No matter what it does to our country as Greenspan said, all you desire is to make it a Republcan thing and who cares what it tears down or how bad and wrong it is.

Why not stand with our troops and help the people in need and let them have a voice? To do right and dude the troops i feel know more than any of us what is right and wrong and what is going on. Why people are bring up Haliburton and others dude like Blackwater is because these where Cheney/Bush best friends and giving no bid contracts. Tax payers money going to people like this and the troops are having to run up and down the road, putting themself in danger guarding them as they make billions. Tell the truth dude and stop with the Fox News spin. Also dude, the troops don't give a rats butt about a Republican/Democrat as they are being bombed. They want to do right and they want the people in power to treat them fair and lead them doing the right things. Not a Republican thing or a Democrat thing. This is not a game as you make it out to be.

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by dude1394

No show me in the link you've already provided. you can't because it doesn't. If you are going to use a link to make a point, at least make sure the link addresses the point.

TRANSLATION: "Unless you feed me with information that I will refuse to assimilate into my consciousness, I will refuse to assimilate it into my consciousness..."

Don't let reason and logic stop you, duder. Regular people don't have flashy slogans to hypnotize you and satiate your desire to be mind controlled.

"And it seems to me perfectly in the cards that there will be within the next generation or so a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing... a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda, brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods."

- Aldous Huxley, 1959

[Janett_Reno]

Fear and fighting in Iraq's Sadr City

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080408...y_080408165832

"We're scared," admitted Abu Muamel as the sudden blast of a mortar round fightened the baby in his arms to tears and set US and Iraqi armoured vehicles racing through Sadr City's smoke-choked streets.

"It's too dangerous to stay here," Abu Muamel added as he and his family of eight on Tuesday fled the sprawling district in eastern Baghdad that is the theatre of raging battles between Mahdi Army militiamen and security forces.

"A mortar landed in our street, killing a boy. I'm taking my family out of here. We're going to stay with relatives in Mansur," the 42-year-old artisan said, referring to a relatively safe part of western Baghdad.

As he spoke another two mortar rounds slammed into a nearby neighbourhood. The explosions drowned out the whine of US Stryker armoured troop carriers and the relentless clatter of Apache helicopters, which have been blasting away at mortar and rocket teams with Hellfire missiles for the past three days.

"That's Jaish al-Mahdi (Mahdi Army) trying to hit the Americans," explained an Iraqi soldier manning a checkpoint at the edge of Sadr City.

"They don't target us, only the Americans," he added as one of Abu Muamel's small daughters began coughing from the acrid smoke in the air.

"We're going now," said the father, herding his children, wife and sisters-in-law through the checkpoint, one small boy tightly clutching his hand, a slightly older girl toddling alongside him carrying a bag crammed with clothes and cuddly toys.

Screaming fire engines sped by, startling supermarket owner Abu Said as he struggled with two young sons to push a large wooden cart crammed with foodstuffs towards his store, three kilometres (one and a half miles) away.

The violence, a vehicle curfew in Sadr City and the destruction in the fighting of the vast Jamila food market have added layers of extra hardship to Abu Said's life.

"People want food so I have to go every day to Al-Shorja market (in central Baghdad) for supplies. Because we can't use vehicles, I have to use this push cart," said Abu Said, dressed in long flowing robes and perspiring from the exertion.

"It takes me three hours to fetch my stocks instead of just half an hour as it did when I used to go to Jamila," he said.

Jumar Kadhum and his wife joined the throngs of people heading through the streets with bags of food they had brought from a market outside Sadr City, taking advantage of an earlier lull in the fighting.

"There are no supplies left inside Sadr City," said Kadhum, balding and in his forties. "We have left our children at home. We all stay in one room because we are so frightened. The children do not go out at all. We have just left quickly to get some supplies. Mortars have been falling all around us. We have seen bodies in the streets."

Other residents said they were stocking up in case the fighting gets worse and they become trapped for days.

"We are all frightened. There is so much gunfire and mortars," said Umm Rusul, carrying supplies of rice, tinned food and bottles of cooking oil, while her young daughter struggled under a large bag of tea.

"There are 17 of us living in the house," she said. "We hear explosions all the time. My children have learnt to tell the difference between a mortar, a rocket, a rocket-propelled grenade, an IED (roadside bomb) and a JDAM (guided bomb).

"It is very dangerous," she added, as three pickup trucks sped by, packed with heavily armed men wearing the uniforms of Iraqi special forces.

"Those were Americans," said an Iraqi soldier wearing wrap-around sunglasses despite the pall cast by the numerous fires set during the fighting.

"The Americans know that the Mahdi Army doesn't target the Iraqi security forces so now they are dressing like Iraqis," added the soldier, expressing a belief, whether true or not, that now seems to be taken as gospel on the streets of the impoverished township of around two million people.

A motor mechanic with a round belly and oil-stained clothes wished the fighting would end.

"I have not been able to work for three days. This is the first time I've left my home since Saturday. My family needs food. We just want peace."

--------------------------------------------------------------

This will make you happy dude and might keep us there the next 100 years like you and McCain desire.

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/US_plan..._04072008.html

US planning open-ended military commitment in Iraq: report

A draft agreement between the United States and Iraq shows that the two countries are including a provision for an open-ended American military commitment to the war-torn country, The Guardian reported Tuesday.

Citing a copy of the draft strategic framework agreement dated March 7 that it obtained, the newspaper said that the document is designed to replace the current United Nations mandate, which expires at the end of the year.

According to The Guardian, the agreement allows the United States to "conduct military operations in Iraq and to detain individuals when necessary for imperative reasons of security" without including a time limit.

It also does not put any limits on the number of American forces allowed in Iraq, the weapons they can use, the legal status of US troops in Iraq or the powers they hold over Iraqi citizens.

The document states it is "in the mutual interest of the United States and Iraq that Iraq maintain its sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence and that external threats to Iraq be deterred."

"Accordingly, the US and Iraq are to consult immediately whenever the territorial integrity or political independence of Iraq is threatened."

It also includes the agreement that the "US does not seek to use Iraq territory as a platform for offensive operations against other states."

News of the document comes just hours before General David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq, and US ambassador to Baghdad Ryan Crocker testify on the progress in the war before two Senate committees.

Rival Democratic presidential candidates Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have promised to start pulling American forces out of Iraq, plans that have drawn criticism from the Republican candidate John McCain.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by ribosoma

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tbBG6mAi1wo

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tbBG6mAi1wo

Thanks for the link. This is where all that "data" has been gathered since the '80's:



It's called Echelon... Google it