Nelson gambling on small lineup change - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MightyToine · 03-28-2004, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
DUDE ....I actually dont think the Mavs have mailed it in. Not at all. I think the players are giving it 100% and so are the coaches. And so is the front office. EXCEPT ....EXCEPT, they are using the player rotations in a manner that fits their long term goals. The fact that they are keeping their long-term goal of winning a title at the foremost doesnt mean there is any willingness to lose - within the constraints of the bigger picture.

CHUM ... Do I think other teams might become gullible? Not hardly. Not even close.

Here is the reality, as I see it. Walker has skills, and some good ones. As much as we all get pissy about some of the things he does, dont ever forget that he is a combo F/PF, and Dallas has a better one in Dirk, so Walker doesnt fit here. But on a scale of 1-10, for a PF, his passing is a 7+, his rebounding is a 7 or so, and his ability to drive and finish from the wing is probably an 8. His outside shooting sux. So if you put him in a role that emphasizes the slashing and boarding, and minimizes the need to shoot from the perimeter, his SKILLS will be used and seen.

No player is perfect. No team expects to get perfection. Every team that is a potential trade partner will try to project him into a role on their team. When he is doing the things he does best, it is easier to project what he can add, and accordingly his value goes up. No player is as good as their best day, or as bad as their worst - - but, THE MOST RECENT IMAGE LASTS THE LONGEST. Thus, the better he looks in the next few weeks, the better the value in return. And I think a showcase matters, to make the "most recent image" one that reinforces his strengths.

Which is why I've been saying that I hope Walker plays VERY WELL this coming playoffs so that we might have a shot at getting someone DECENT for him in return....

My Ideal situation : Walker Averages a double-double while at "Center" and Mavs get to the next round....(that's a GOOD showcase).....

Walker then Averages a double-double in the next series and the Mavs somehow by a miracle's hair, get to the WCF again.....(That's a VERY GOOD showcase).....

You get my drift? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Poindexter Einstein · 03-28-2004, 11:56 PM

"My Ideal situation : Walker Averages a double-double while at "Center" and Mavs get to the next round....(that's a GOOD showcase).....Walker then Averages a double-double in the next series and the Mavs somehow by a miracle's hair, get to the WCF again.....(That's a VERY GOOD showcase)....."

Agreed. As most have said, Walker needs to go next year - but the best case scenario is for him to go at the highest price, being in high demand for the skills he does have, rather than sitting him and getting squat. (And I really think that was their main goal all year - see who fits best here, and try to max out value for that final move for a big man. Hoping to win as they did it, of course, but recognizing all along that this is an INTERIM set of players.)

Chiwas · 03-29-2004, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Nelson gambling on small lineup change

Practicing for the franchise of Cuban and the Maloofs in Las Vegas.

PubaNWO · 03-29-2004, 08:37 AM

I have always wondered how Antoine Walker would play in some other system, other than the one he played in for Boston.

I have always wondered how another coach would use Walker.

I wonder how Walker's game would be if he had less freedom and more restraint.

There are many Boston fans who don't believe Walker is a number 1 or number 2 player.....that he's at best a bench player.

Well now that I have seen Walker playing for Nellie, I have some idea of what Walker's game is like.

Then again, maybe Nellie isn't a good example.

MightyToine · 03-29-2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: PubaNWO
I have always wondered how Antoine Walker would play in some other system, other than the one he played in for Boston.

I have always wondered how another coach would use Walker.

I wonder how Walker's game would be if he had less freedom and more restraint.

There are many Boston fans who don't believe Walker is a number 1 or number 2 player.....that he's at best a bench player.

Well now that I have seen Walker playing for Nellie, I have some idea of what Walker's game is like.

Then again, maybe Nellie isn't a good example.

Nellie is most DEFINITELY *NOT* a good example. Walker has played PG(point-forward..whatever), SF, PF, and now C......The guy has no set position that he plays ON A CONSISTENT BASIS.

Had he been on ANY OTHER TEAM(besides Boston and Dallas), He would've been used CORRECTLY....

Chiwas · 03-29-2004, 11:08 AM

I think Walker was used the most correctly possible in Boston than anywhere else that he could have or he will have.

PubaNWO · 03-29-2004, 12:03 PM

Yeah, I think Boston got the most our of Walker.

I'm not sure Dallas is seeing the best Walker has to offer.

Murphy3 · 03-29-2004, 12:18 PM

I do not want any part of the Walker that I saw in Boston. I'd much rather have what Walker is producing now compared to what he did in Boston.

MightyToine · 03-29-2004, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
I do not want any part of the Walker that I saw in Boston. I'd much rather have what Walker is producing now compared to what he did in Boston.

I don't think I'd want to see him jack up 8 threes a game again either, Murph. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

PubaNWO · 03-29-2004, 01:40 PM

MT.....shame on you for turning on AW!!!!

MightyToine · 03-29-2004, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: PubaNWO
MT.....shame on you for turning on AW!!!!

I have turned on Walker, The Basketball Player.....But not Walker, the Human Being.

Puba, there's no doubt that once the offseason begins for the Mavs, Walker will most likely be shipped out(possibly to Chicago) so let me say this :

I wish Walker all the success in the world 'cause he's a good man who wears his emotions on his sleeve and I hope he can enjoy the rest of his career playing B-ball....

PubaNWO · 03-29-2004, 01:46 PM

AW will help this Mavs win the title this year.....just watch!!!

dalmations202 · 03-29-2004, 02:01 PM

Just one question?

What do you think Raef would be saying behind closed doors right now, if you were talking to him about the Mavs? ?

SeriousSummer · 03-29-2004, 03:51 PM

Raef would be saying, "Both teams played hard. I wish my knee wasn't ruined so I could play hard."

mavsman55 · 03-29-2004, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
If Nellie wanted to try something different, why didn't he just insert Howard and Bradley into the starting lineup to go along with the Big 3?

This is the best point I've seen made so far. Bradley obviously deserves more minutes... but out of the two rookies, who do you think deserves a starting spot? Daniels, with two great games, or Howard, with consistent play all year. But no, Nelson decides that Daniels is great enough to start because he had a couple big scoring games, and stock up all the offensive talent on the court even more, thus lessening the effectiveness of the big 3 even more. Bradley and Howard are defensive players. This is exactly what we need! Howard can slow defenders down, and Bradley's mere presence on the court deters many of the easy dunks/layups that we normally see with Dirk at center. This lineup would be killer...

Start Antoine Walker??????? AT CENTER???? Don Nelson needs to have his head checked out. Matching Walker up with guys 2 or 3 inches taller than him will only lessen his shot % even more. Nelson is a fool, and every attempt he makes to make this team better only further underutilizes our effective defensive players and turns us into a weaker team. Stupid Fool....

mavsman55 · 03-29-2004, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dalmations202
Just one question?

What do you think Raef would be saying behind closed doors right now, if you were talking to him about the Mavs? ?

Raef: "They're screwed."

Bookit · 03-29-2004, 05:04 PM

Ok, here something else I don’t get about Nellie and his lineups. Nellie claims that Fortson is undersized at center and is really nothing more than a power forward. So why doesn’t Nellie play Fortson at power forward or small forward? What is with these non conventional lineups he keeps putting on the floor? I just don’t get it. Is Fortson too fat to guard the same guys as Walker?

We all know that Fortson won’t attempt any threes. We know that Fortson will draw fouls and make it to the free throw line. We know that Danny will hit his free throws. We know that Fortson will rebound. And we know that Fortson can score at least 10 points a game given the same minutes as Walker. What the hell is so special about Walker!

Wouldn’t a lineup of Bradley, Fortson, Nash, Dirk, and Fin pay dividends? The only difference is the Mavs wouldn’t be able to get out and run as much. But the half court game would be much better in my opinion. And the Mavs wouldn’t get pushed around with Danny the enforcer playing forward.

Instead of going smaller, why can’t we go bigger?

kg_veteran · 03-29-2004, 05:09 PM

The ideal guy to substitute for Walker is Bradley. A lineup of Bradley, Nowitzki, Howard, Finley, and Daniels could be pretty nice defensively.

Poindexter Einstein · 03-29-2004, 06:29 PM

"The ideal guy to substitute for Walker is Bradley"

It wont happen. You cant showcase Walker when his butt is on the bench.

Murphy3 · 03-29-2004, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
"The ideal guy to substitute for Walker is Bradley"

It wont happen. You cant showcase Walker when his butt is on the bench.

The worst way to showcase Walker is to give him playing time.

Poindexter Einstein · 03-30-2004, 12:03 AM

I obviously disagree. I think he definitely has skills - but of course he also has flaws. You need to play him, and play him in a role where his skills are more likely to shine. I want the best big man possible, and it wont come from him being seen as too crappy to play here.

MightyToine · 03-30-2004, 12:14 AM

Murph, Bookit, mavsman55...

CHILL OUT!!

I think What is going on here is that while Walker will no doubtedly get abused inside by the opposing Center, Walker will have the "advantage" on the other end as well.

Plus....Aren't you all tired of seeing Walker's Man just drive by Walker like he was a stop sign or something? There's not too many centers that can drive like Small-forwards, you know.... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

This actually gives walker the best chance of having a little success defensively AND more success(I hope) offensively 'cause of the mis-match he would present by drawing the opposing center further away from the paint area....

kg_veteran · 03-30-2004, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
"The ideal guy to substitute for Walker is Bradley"

It wont happen. You cant showcase Walker when his butt is on the bench.

I didn't say it would happen. I was just responding to Bookit's suggestion that Fortson might be better suited to start than Walker.

mavsman55 · 03-30-2004, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MightyToine
Murph, Bookit, mavsman55...

CHILL OUT!!

I think What is going on here is that while Walker will no doubtedly get abused inside by the opposing Center, Walker will have the "advantage" on the other end as well.

Plus....Aren't you all tired of seeing Walker's Man just drive by Walker like he was a stop sign or something? There's not too many centers that can drive like Small-forwards, you know.... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

This actually gives walker the best chance of having a little success defensively AND more success(I hope) offensively 'cause of the mis-match he would present by drawing the opposing center further away from the paint area....

There lies the problem, man. Walker is slow and can't play defense, and he's going to get abused beyond reason. We are probably going to be seeing twice as many open layups/dunks if Walker plays center. The worst position for a non-defensive player is Center. In most cases, Centers aren't usually big scorers (except shaq). Defensive pressure and rebounding are the two jobs of a typical center. I don't know if Nelson is trying to play typical basketball... but then again, Nelson doesn't know what he's doing. And why does Bradley deserve to back up Walker? It should be the other way around.

My guess is that even if Antoine Walker sucks it up at center, and his numbers get even worse, Nelson will still play him 30+ minutes/game and make this team even worse. Antoine Walker is not a center.

OutletPass · 03-30-2004, 07:38 AM

Quote:

I have turned on Walker, The Basketball Player.....But not Walker, the Human Being.

Sorry, Walker "The human Being" doesn't even know your name, wouldn't give you the time of day in public and wouldn't give you back the price of one night's seat ($100) as a refund for the $8k that you wasted on 2 season tix this year watching Walker "The Player". Hero worship really sucks doesn't it, MT ?

MightyToine · 03-30-2004, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: OutletPass

Quote:

I have turned on Walker, The Basketball Player.....But not Walker, the Human Being.

Sorry, Walker "The human Being" doesn't even know your name, wouldn't give you the time of day in public and wouldn't give you back the price of one night's seat ($100) as a refund for the $8k that you wasted on 2 season tix this year watching Walker "The Player". Hero worship really sucks doesn't it, MT ?

It doesn't really suck now since I'm slowly developing into a true Mavs fan since being here.... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

PubaNWO · 03-30-2004, 12:49 PM

Why would Chicago want Walker??

grndmstr_c · 03-30-2004, 01:03 PM

Hometown boy(maybe)
Expiring contract (definitely)

dalmations202 · 03-30-2004, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
Hometown boy(maybe)
Expiring contract (definitely)

Getting rid of a long contract in AD.
Getting rid of a player with a bad back.
To make a change, to show fans you are trying to do something.

Max Power · 03-31-2004, 10:55 PM

How is this small ball? It is the same thing as Dirk starting at center and Walker at forward - they just flipped positions. The only other difference is Daniels starting instead of Howard and they are both roughly the same height.

Nellie is the master of misdirection.

dude1394 · 03-31-2004, 11:50 PM

I can't figure out the huge deal either max. There are some subtle differences that I have noticed however.

1. The mavs are blowing off trying to necessarily focus on better defense. It's balls-to-the-wall offense. Get faster, quicker and run it up. Get back to what they do/did best and hope they can get stops at the end of games to pull it out.
2. What I did notice was the rotations were a little bit different. When bradley/fortson came in, walker went out. So neither walker nor dirk had to cover sfs. AJ came in and played with a center and that is ok with me.

Murphy3 · 04-01-2004, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Max Power
How is this small ball? It is the same thing as Dirk starting at center and Walker at forward - they just flipped positions. The only other difference is Daniels starting instead of Howard and they are both roughly the same height.

Nellie is the master of misdirection.

I think most people's biggest issue is that it could possibly push the centers even further from the court. It's almost as if they were punished for their good play as of late. I had no problem with the Mavs making a change to the starting lineup, but I just didn't like the change that was made.

But, I can see this possibly being successful against a team like the Kings.

FreshJive · 04-01-2004, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Max Power
How is this small ball? It is the same thing as Dirk starting at center and Walker at forward - they just flipped positions. The only other difference is Daniels starting instead of Howard and they are both roughly the same height.

Nellie is the master of misdirection.

It's small ball because we have three gaurds on the court. Fin goes to SF and the backup pg now starts at SG( ala Nick). I think its a great idea if Nellie would just put a center in the center spot, but at least Antoine will fight for minutes with centers now(where we are weakest) instead of taking minutes and possessions away from our best players (Dirk, Steve, Fin, Daniels, Howard, Twan). Mabye, Nellie saw it as the best way to limit Antoine's effect on the team, while still keep him in the starting lineup. We are stronger at gaurd this season then we were last season, so we might as well play to our strengths.

Poindexter Einstein · 04-01-2004, 07:21 AM

"How is this small ball? It is the same thing as Dirk starting at center and Walker at forward "

The difference is not the designation of Walker as a C. It is the planned use of Finley at SF. That is the significant change. They tried this off-n-on earlier but Delk was a flop as the SG/backupPG. So was Best. They tried to insert Howard but his O is too crappy and his D is undisciplined (and overrated). Now they hit on Daniels, and he has the O that might make it work quite well.

MavKikiNYC · 04-01-2004, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Max Power

Nellie is the master of misdirection.

And also a slave to it.

1timesportsbeatwriter · 04-01-2004, 12:17 PM

nellie has been using small ball all season, now, he is labeling it ``small ball'' and everybody is excited. the first home game of the season he started the big 3, walker, and delk. tonight against the kings its the big 3, walker, and daniels _ and daniels is 4 inches TALLER than delk.
all year long, nellie has used matchups. when the other team doesnt have a duncan, shaq, or garnett, he goes small, and sometimes he goes small when shaq is the opponent. the reason they lost to atlanta twice, and to miami, and to all the other teams is cuz they played horribly and if you look at the lineups they had on the floor at the crucial part of games, it was small anyway. You never see bradley or fortson or scott williams on the floor at important times. its always the big 3, one of the rookies and either jamison or walker. Thats small ball. and they still suck right now.

grndmstr_c · 04-01-2004, 12:28 PM

1time, Nellie has, most nights, been starting one of the centers with Toine at SF. When he hasn't done that he's started Dirk at center and JHo at SF. Neither of those is small ball, so this most recent move does represent a change, principally because Finley will now be the SF, something that hasn't happened much at all since back when Delk was in the rotation.

Poindexter Einstein · 04-01-2004, 01:26 PM

1TIME ....This is very much a change. His year-long stretch lineup had Dirk-AW-AJ as the big men, with Nash and Finley at the guards. Now he is moving Finley into the mix at SF. The whole goal is to free up Dirk to dominate. With Finley at the 3, the opponent will be forced to guard Fin with the 3 and Dirk with a 4 or 5. When they had Delk at the 2, or Howard, the other team had a man freed up on defense cause both of those two suck on offense so badly. Daniels changes that dynamic.

1timesportsbeatwriter · 04-01-2004, 02:37 PM

This is not a change. OK, the starting lineup is a change. but in crunch time, all year, he does go small. there is no shawn, no fortson. its always dirk and walker and finley and nash and one of the rookies. Over the last month, thats the way its been. So maybe the starting lineup is a little different, but in games, nellie always uses different lineups throughout the game that has, eventually, a ``small ball'' lineup to it.

grndmstr_c · 04-01-2004, 02:51 PM

The crunch time SF is usually either AJ or JHo. That is not small ball, at least not the same kind of small ball as when Fin is the SF. I get your point, it's not like Nellie's all of a sudden using lineups that he's never used before, but it is nonetheless a change to start a consistent 5 guys with a 2 playing the 3. Even when he was starting Delk it was only an occasional thing.