Dirk vs Bird...

[grbh]

[horn]

This is my first post so I'll try to make it a good one. I was fortunate to be in Boston for the 85-86 season which was the best Bird team which also had Walton coming off the bench. I saw a lot of games on tv. I don't think the Bird comparison is a good one because their game is so different. Bird really liked contact. He was an old style back to the basket post up player who shot with both hands including a hook. His post up game forced double teams much closer to the basket than Dirk plays so the spacing to the jump shooters on the three point line was much better. Then there was his outside shooting. It was a set shot with a hard to block release. Not nearly as pretty or fluid as Dirk but Larry was much more of a clutch shooter. He would have a clear path to the basket and take a step back to take the three in the corner. He just knew when his body was working well. A great example is the 3 point contest at the All Star Weekend. He went into the locker room and asked the rest of the competitors "Who's shooting for second place" and went out and won it. Nobody today would have the mental toughness to do that today. You can't find that in a stat. A good comparison to Dirk of that era though not as good was Tom Chambers in his best year or two when he first went to Phoenix.

[G-Man]

I hate Bird as much as I love Dirk, but the Dick from French Lick was as great a clutch player as I have ever seen. It seemed like he always wanted the big shot, and usually hit it.. often against teams I was rooting for, as I never wanted the Celtics to win. Its not just killer instinct, but killer performance.
Think of the 3 baskets Dirk, Fin and Nash missed in last years 3 playoff losses to Sacramento. On Bird's team, the ball would have gone to him on the last play of every game, and no way would he let Peja beat him.

I think Dirk has the tools, and I see him developing the mentality. Seems like Bird had it all from day one. That's probably why I hate him. But he was damned good.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Yes, Larry had it from day one, but he was much older, and much more experienced than Dirk when he came into the NBA. But all that aside, what's to hate about Larry Bird?

[Thespiralgoeson]

We really only need one of these threads. I'm tired of typing the same thing over and over in two differend threads, so I'll just copy what I said on the other thread and put it here:

This whole "Dirk is no Larry Legend" crap pisses me off. Of course Dirk isn't Larry Legend. NO ONE IS! THERE'S ONLY ONE! That's probably why he's called Larry LegendBut to dismiss the comparisons because Dirk isn't as complete as Larry was is ridiculous. Dirk is every bit as good a scorer as Bird ever was, and now he's a great defender as well. The only thing that really separates them is passing. Larry was the greatest passing forward of all time, but you also must consider that he played his entire career with two phenominal inside players in Robert Parish and Kevin McHale. Whereas Dirk played on a team with no inside presence. The other argument is that Larry was great from day one. Yes, that's true, but you must also factor in that Dirk came into the league much younger, and with very little playing experience. Bird, on the other hand, played in college and got to the NCAA finals and played against Magic Johnson! And finally you must concede that the game is much harder than it was then. You can throw out Bird's stats all you want, but that can be misleading. Ever watch games back then? Defense was practically non-existant. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50 points a game in one season, something Shaq never came close to doing. Yet, I truly believe that Shaq is better than Wilt was. Wilt dominated the game because there was nobody else like him in his day, and nobody defended him (except Bill Russel) If you put Shaq in the NBA when Wilt was in the game, he'd score 100 points in a game too. The same applies for Dirk. I think Rudy Tomjonavich said it best when he said something like "If you put Dirk in the game when I played, you would've thought he was from another planet." I'm not saying that Dirk is as good as Larry Bird, but to say that "Dirk is no Larry Legend" is retarded, because there's only one Larry Bird.

One more thing: Dirk didn't get beat by Peja, he got beat by the clock. The Mavs were just beaten by a better team (although I hate to admit it)

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: horn
This is my first post so I'll try to make it a good one. I was fortunate to be in Boston for the 85-86 season which was the best Bird team which also had Walton coming off the bench. I saw a lot of games on tv. I don't think the Bird comparison is a good one because their game is so different. Bird really liked contact.

Look at their free throw attempts. Take in a Mav game. With the exception of Shaq and AI, there might not be another player in the league that takes on as much contact as Dirk. Dirk is relentless at getting to the bucket.

He was an old style back to the basket post up player who shot with both hands including a hook. His post up game forced double teams much closer to the basket than Dirk plays so the spacing to the jump shooters on the three point line was much better.

Once again, much of Dirk's game is around the bucket. He posts up alot now. He drives to the bucket relentlessly. You're speaking of Dirk using old stereotypes not modern day realities. No, Dirk doesn't establish his post position as low as Bird usually did. However, Dirk takes it to the rim off of the dribble much moreso than Bird. Oh yeah, in case you didn't know, Dirk's beginning to use a hook shot that he'll shoot with his left or right. Plus, he has a nice jumper from 16-17 feet in with his left hand as well. Much like Bird, he shot the jumper with the right hand because ...he's right handed. However, he has the ability to drill the jumper with either hand. When around the rim, he'll use either hand for floaters, runners, layups or slams. And yeah..the hook. No, he doesn't shoot the hook alot right now, but we're starting to see that he has confidence in it. At some point next year, I believe that it'll be a regularly used weapon in his arsenal.

Then there was his outside shooting. It was a set shot with a hard to block release. Not nearly as pretty or fluid as Dirk but Larry was much more of a clutch shooter. He would have a clear path to the basket and take a step back to take the three in the corner. He just knew when his body was working well. A great example is the 3 point contest at the All Star Weekend. He went into the locker room and asked the rest of the competitors "Who's shooting for second place" and went out and won it. Nobody today would have the mental toughness to do that today. You can't find that in a stat. A good comparison to Dirk of that era though not as good was Tom Chambers in his best year or two when he first went to Phoenix.

Well, considering the fact that Dirk's numbers are probably better than Bird's in the playoffs...and considering that Dirk's numbers in elimination games are even a step above that, I think you're selling Dirk a bit short here as well. No, he doesn't have the long resume yet, but that's a product of being in his mid 20's.

Obviously, Bird definitely has the edge over Dirk. But, there's no reason not to compare the two. With a title and 5-6 more years playing at this level, it'll just about be a toss up.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: G-Man
I hate Bird as much as I love Dirk, but the Dick from French Lick was as great a clutch player as I have ever seen. It seemed like he always wanted the big shot, and usually hit it.. often against teams I was rooting for, as I never wanted the Celtics to win. Its not just killer instinct, but killer performance.
Think of the 3 baskets Dirk, Fin and Nash missed in last years 3 playoff losses to Sacramento. On Bird's team, the ball would have gone to him on the last play of every game, and no way would he let Peja beat him.

I think Dirk has the tools, and I see him developing the mentality. Seems like Bird had it all from day one. That's probably why I hate him. But he was damned good.

Dirk should have had the ball in his hands in that series more in the clutch. But, last season was a total waste due to Nellie's misuse of personnel.

As for the comment about there being 'no way would he let Peja beat him'. Umm....Bird missed alot of clutch shots in his career. You take alot of clutch shots, you're going to miss alot. That's just the way it is. Jordan missed clutch shots. But hey, if you win a title or two, people remember the clutch shots that you hit and tend to forget the ones that you miss. That's just how it happens.

[dude1394]

Let's think about this year versus last year. This year dirk goes straight to the hoop against peja, he's not even the same player this year. I like's my chances with him at the end versus larry.

I even bet he leaned something in that phoenix game about keeping the ball lower so it cannot get blocked from behind. The dirk of this year finishes one or two fo those games imo.

[Thespiralgoeson]

I'm bringing this one back, simply because the Dirk/Bird comparison is getting used insanely. It seems like almost every time Dirk makes a shot, Pinto or someone else calls it "Bird-like." It came to a head during the Seattle game that was broadcast on ESPN the other night, when before the game they had a little segment comparing Dirk to Bird, and during the entire game, Walton was talking about how similar Dirk is to Bird. As much as this complement is being used, valid as it may be, I'd still like to see more out of Dirk in the future. I wish he would lead the league in scoring at least once in his career, but that probably won't happen seeing as how guys who do that are almost always the only offensive weapon on their respective teams. Something he seriously needs to do is to finally average double digits in rebounding seeing as how Duncan and Garnett always have done that, and we all know he's more than capable of pulling down some serious boards. Of course, we'd all like to see more assists. This one is a real question mark. He's obviously vastly improved this season. Over the past several games, I'm seeing him make passes that I've never seen him do before, especially off the dribble. I can't help but wonder how much more he'll improve though. He'll probably never be at Garnett's level in that aspect, but he's already surpassed Duncan IMO. And as we all, for the Dirk to ever truly be at Larry's level, he'll have to win at least one championship, which I think the Mavs are definately going to do, if not this year, then within the next two years. He also needs to be MVP (which he already is but won't get the award for bogus reasons) But let's get real here folks, the Dirk/Bird comparison isn't all that relavent. What is really relavent is the Dirk/Duncan/Garnett comparisons. And I will say that it looks like Dirk is finally getting the credit he deserves, and people are admitting that he is at their level, although many more still refuse to say so. And although this is truly meaningless, I would like to see Dirk get the starter spot on the all-star team over Duncan or KG, AT LEAST ONCE!

[G-Man]

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it. Dirk is in the process of creating his own legend.

When he retires, people will talk about how he started out as a tall guy who could hit the 3. Then 1 year he just decided to be a great rebounder, and did it. Then later decided to be a solid defender, and did it. Then decided he needed to take it to the hole more and became even harder to defend. I'll bet in his last year, his assists will match Bird's as well. All he needs is some rings, to make everyone focus on his greatness.

Dirks legend will be a chart of constant improvement. His legacy will be a league full of foriegners, but Dirk will be like MJ, and Bird, in that for decades, people will look at every tall import and ask, "think he'll be the next Dirk?"

[dude1394]

I don't think dirk leading the league is scoring is necessarily a good thing at all. Upping his assist totals and blocked shot totals would mean a lot more to me.

If the mavs play the spurs in the playoffs this year, we will see just how good dirk will be. He'll probably match up with duncan a lot, and I think the last time that happened he was pretty stout.

Word g-man....

[Simon2]

Throw the stats out the window. As of now, this is exactly why it is a joke to compare Dirk to Bird. What happens next will show me if Dirk can even hold Bird's jockstrap. There was one series, I'm not sure if it was against Detroit or the Lakers, but the Celtics came out flat. Bird came out and cussed his team. The next game, the Celtics were dishing out the punishment and they won the series. Stats may be similar or Dirk may even be ahead but killer attitude-wise, Dirk is still Mary Poppins and Bird was Jack Kevorkian. So, as it stands, Dirk isn't even close to the Legend. Sorry folks.

[grndmstr_c]

What a moronic bump. Not that I have the stats handy to prove it, but if Larry didn't have a few less than stellar playoff games in his career I'll eat my shorts after I've worn them for a week. I damn sure know his teams lost more than a few series in his time, and if memory serves they even lost them to lower seeded teams on at least a couple occassions.

[Simon2]

I don't care if Larry Bird had bad games. What I'm saying is what happened after is what distinguishes Bird from Dirk. Bird demanded a better performance from himself and his teamates. Where is Dirk after this debacle? I love Dirk but people comparing him to Bird just makes me laugh at this point. He ain't near the legend. He could be one day, but he doesn't have the killer instinct. I didn't say Bird didn't lose. I just said, what makes Bird and Dirk ends apart in the spectrum is that Bird hated to lose. Dirk.... not sure. He probably hates it too but not enough to get mad and destroy some chairs.

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
What a moronic bump. Not that I have the stats handy to prove it, but if Larry didn't have a few less than stellar playoff games in his career I'll eat my shorts after I've worn them for a week. I damn sure know his teams lost more than a few series in his time, and if memory serves they even lost them to lower seeded teams on at least a couple occassions.

[chumdawg]

I was looking at that Celtics playoff series a while back. If memory serves, I think that almost all their losses were to lower seeded teams. Of course, they often had the best record, so this would stand to reason. In fact, I don't think that they ever upset someone with a better record. Maybe once, but certainly not often.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Simon2
I don't care if Larry Bird had bad games. What I'm saying is what happened after is what distinguishes Bird from Dirk. Bird demanded a better performance from himself and his teamates. Where is Dirk after this debacle? I love Dirk but people comparing him to Bird just makes me laugh at this point. He ain't near the legend. He could be one day, but he doesn't have the killer instinct. I didn't say Bird didn't lose. I just said, what makes Bird and Dirk ends apart in the spectrum is that Bird hated to lose. Dirk.... not sure. He probably hates it too but not enough to get mad and destroy some chairs.

So Bird was so great because he cussed and destroyed chairs??? Dirk <> Bird and Bird <> Dirk. They are two different players who played in two different errors.

A fairer critique would be that Bird was a much better passer than Dirk and a much better vocal leader. Dirk is taller and more athletic than Bird. I'm sure that there are a tons of differences that can be found that are legitimate. And I personally don't think that Dirk is on the level that Bird was, mainly because Bird was MVP 3 times I believe and 3 times a world champion. Dirk has yet to get either of these distinctions. However nothing is to say that Dirk won't eventually get there. We'll just have to wait and see. Right now Dirk looks bad, but who knows what will happen in the future. 2 bad playoff games don't ruin a whole career just as 2 good ones don't make it.

[PubaNWO]

As comparing Bird and Dirk as "big guys who can shoot and score in a variety of ways" that's perfectly reasonable...but as basketball players there is no comparison.

First off Bird made his teammates better, yes they were talented in their own rights but they BECAME hall of famers because of Bird. His work ethic, dedication, and will rubbed off on all of them.

Secondly Bird CONTROLLED the flow/tempo of the games. He didn't necessarily have to score to do this....he could control the game with his passing and his mental anticipation. Bird played basketball like it was chess, often thinking 2 to 3 steps ahead of the opposing team and often talking and gaining a psychological advantage.

Thirdly Bird wasn't just a clutch shooter, he was a clutch play maker. He would make a clutch pass or a clutch steal to tie or win the game. This is why Bird strikes fear in opposing teams' hearts and minds near the end of every close game. You just know the ball is going to go to him and he's going to win the game and there's nothing you can do to stop him.

Fourthly Bird played hurt and I'm not talking a sprained ankle or jammed finger hurt. I'm talking several slipped disks to fused spinal vertebrae hurt or dislocated finger hurt, or fractured cheek bone hurt and he played HARD and EFFECTIVELY more often than not.

Fifthly Bird played with with GREAT INTENSITY and HEART. Diving on loose balls, banging against players twice his weight for rebounds, willing his physically slow body to do things normally impossible. If it was any one thing that made Bird a legend and why he was so beloved in the New England area is he gave everything he had and put it all out there for us. He didn't jump all that high....didn't run all that fast....and certainly couldn't do any 360 dunks....but the guy played his guts out. It wasn't because he could score at will or make no look, behind the back passes, make key clutch plays, hit game winners, etc. The reason he was a legend was because he was an "every day joe" who had no business playing in the NBA and excelled because of his will, work ethic, and dedication to the game.

Dirk can shoot and personally I think Dirk is a better pure shooter than Bird and because of his height and quickness for a 7 footer he can get off any type of shot he wants Dirk should be a much better scorer. But until Dirk can control the game and show as much dedication to game as Bird you just can't compare them to eachother as basketball players.

[Simon2]

But until Dirk can control the game and show as much dedication to game as Bird you just can't compare them to eachother as basketball players.

Exactly!

[grndmstr_c]

Originally posted by: Simon2

Exactly!

I'm pretty sure I've seen Dirk control plenty of games, and I'm damn sure he's dedicated to the game.

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

I'm pretty sure I've seen Dirk control plenty of games, and I'm damn sure he's dedicated to the game.

I don't think I remember seeing Bird looking scared of taking the most important shots in a game. Bird was fearless and tough. Dirk is tough. There's no question about that but does he have the "I'll take the shots because I'm the best player on this team" attitude? Does Dirk get pissed because he wasn't involved in the last play? Nope. Bird would have given AJ an earful if Bird didn't touch the ball on the last play. Yes, Dirk has controlled some games but the playoffs are different. There's a reason why Bird has 3 rings and Dirk is still zip. Dirk needs to want it and want it bad. Dirk is dedicated but is he dedicated enough to cut off someone balls to win the title? (figure of speech)

[grndmstr_c]

Dirk has taken over a number of playoff games. You're not some newbie on this board. You've seen the stats posted many, many times to back that up.

Also, as far as I'm concerned Dirk's willingness to trust his teammates and let someone else take the shot if that's what the coach calls for is one of the best things about him as a basketball player. If that precludes him from being compared to Bird, then sobeit. But while you're tossing around these half thought-out character generalizations don't forget that it was Dirk who tied it up with ten seconds to go last night.

[LRB]

And just for grins, Larry Joe Bird was named 1st team alltime NBA U-G-L-Y team while Dirk failed to even get an honarable mention.

[LRB]

An interesting side note. In the 1981 Playoffs, Bird's Celtics found themselves down to Dr J's 76'ers 3 games to 1 despite Boston having the better record and homecourt advantage. At that time, no playoff team had ever come back from a 3 to 1 deficit. The Celts rallied to beat the 76'ers in 7games and went on to win Bird's 1st NBA championship. I'm sure there were plenty of people who thought that Bird didn't have what it took to lead a team to championship when the C's found themselves down 3 to 1.

BTW the next year the Celtics found themselves in the same position, down 3 to 1 to the sixers despite having homecourt advantage. The C's forced a 7th game and lost. The next year the C's were swept I believe by Don Nelson's bucks. Despite all these set backs Bird went on to win 2 more NBA championships, 4 Eastern Conference Championships, and 3 league MVP's.

[PubaNWO]

Back then there were 6-8 GREAT teams. Having homecourt and winning x number of games meant nothing. Anything can happen in the playoffs i.e. 8th seed upsetting a 1st seed (Nuggets over Sonics) or 6th seed winning the championship....and yes the Rockets taking 2 games from the Mavs in Dallas....

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
Dirk has taken over a number of playoff games. You're not some newbie on this board. You've seen the stats posted many, many times to back that up.

Also, as far as I'm concerned Dirk's willingness to trust his teammates and let someone else take the shot if that's what the coach calls for is one of the best things about him as a basketball player. If that precludes him from being compared to Bird, then sobeit. But while you're tossing around these half thought-out character generalizations don't forget that it was Dirk who tied it up with ten seconds to go last night.

Yes. Dirk has taken over games and some serieses (sp?). I love those Minny games where Dirk took it to KG. But now in adversity is where we will see what he's made of. He doesn't have Nash anymore so the burden is squarely on his shoulders. The beginning of this thread was to compare Dirk to Bird.

I just thought it was laughable for only one major reason. Bird was a leader and he had the killer instinct. Dirk even said that he won't beocme a vocal leader till his game is more complete.

Don't get me wrong. I love Dirk. I love his work ethic. I love his smooth style and finesse shooting. But comparing him to someone who could be top 5 all-time is just nuts. I guess you can compare him. People are entitled to do what they want. I just find it funny and a waste of time because Dirk isn't in Bird's class right now.

Maybe in all my writing, the one word I was really looking for was leadership. Especially in times of trouble. Dirk is tough like Bird. Dedicated like Bird. A scorer like Bird. Dirk is not a leader yet. That's the big difference.

Anyone think its funny that in Bird's decline, a sleeker guard who they couldn't stop took over. MJ was the new guard. Could Tmac be the new MJ in this respect? Can anyone else see the parallelism? I know Bird was much older than MJ and Dirk and TMac are about the same age. Isn't it strange though that in the Bird-MJ rivalry. Bird was a forward and MJ was a guard. Same here. Dirk is taller than Bird as TMac is taller than MJ. I'm not saying TMac is like MJ. Just a parallelism here.

[PubaNWO]

Yeah I can definitely see the parallelism......and like Dirk, Tmac's will and killer instinct isn't on the same level as MJ.

MJ made sh.it up just to motivate himself for games because he knew he needed that extra edge to get himself going makes him that much more special a player.....

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: PubaNWO
Yeah I can definitely see the parallelism......and like Dirk, Tmac's will and killer instinct isn't on the same level as MJ.

MJ made sh.it up just to motivate himself for games because he knew he needed that extra edge to get himself going makes him that much more special a player.....

I didn't even think about Tmacs will and killer instinct. Good one.

[Simon2]

Maybe just maybe this is the eruption I was looking for. Dirk has called the Mavs out. Let's see if they respond. Dirk needs to be the man like Bird was many times. This series has higher stakes for Dirk than that Houston series. Its not only going to the next round but it will also beat a close friend. Dirk must really, really want to win this series. I expect him to be on fire the rest of the games.

[kingrex]

Isn't there a Dirk tracking thread where posts on Dirk's performance can be continued? It doesn't really bother me that much, but I thought it might be more organized. Otherwise, screw me.

However, regarding Dirk v. Bird, unless you want to talk about shooting technique or the way they dribble, shoot and pass, any talk about how Dirk compares to Bird should be suspended until Dirk can mix in an NBA championship or two.

I love Dirk, but comparing him to Bird in terms of greatness is vastly premature.

[dirk41nowitzki]

Dirk is no Bird. If you look at their accomplishments, it isn't even close. Dirk doesn't have any MVPs or championships to show for.
Bird is a great passer and has hit a lot of game winning shots.

Other than those, Dirk is the closest resemblance to Bird ever. Both tall, white with floppy hair (not now for Dirk), shoot 3's, rebounds wel for someone who plays on the perimeter so much, has a good handle on the ball, steps up his play in the playoffs (except the Houston series), and is relentless attacker (sometimes not the case for Dirk when he's having off nights).
I still remember Magic Johnson in an All-Star game promo 2 years ago said: "Dirk, the closest thing to Bird." I don't know if he's singing a different tune now, but lets just leave it at that.

[LRB]

Well recent events prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Dirk is no Larry Joe Bird. If Dirk were truely Bird, instead of calling Dampier out he would have shoved his foot up Damp's @$$ so far that Damp would have shoe strings coming out his nose. Still Dirk has taken a very positive step towards gaining a Bird like mentality by calling out Damp for being the invisible 70 million dollar man on the court or rather rarely on the court during the playoffs.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: dirk41nowitzki
Dirk is no Bird. If you look at their accomplishments, it isn't even close. Dirk doesn't have any MVPs or championships to show for.
Bird is a great passer and has hit a lot of game winning shots.

Other than those, Dirk is the closest resemblance to Bird ever. Both tall, white with floppy hair (not now for Dirk), shoot 3's, rebounds wel for someone who plays on the perimeter so much, has a good handle on the ball, steps up his play in the playoffs (except the Houston series), and is relentless attacker (sometimes not the case for Dirk when he's having off nights).
I still remember Magic Johnson in an All-Star game promo 2 years ago said: "Dirk, the closest thing to Bird." I don't know if he's singing a different tune now, but lets just leave it at that.

As far as accomplishments, then yes, Dirk is not close to Bird. But the "game winning shots" argument is simply retarded, and ill-conceived. Dirk has hit plenty of game winning shots, and Bird missed his fair share. Some go in, some don't. True, Bird is much better passer than Dirk, but Larry was the greatest passing forward of all time. Other than that, their games are very similar. Dirk is every bit as good a scorer, rebounder, and defender that Bird ever was. Sure, Bird was great from day 1, whereas Dirk took several years, but you must also consider that Bird played the game since he was a little kid, spending countless hours practicing every single aspect of the game. He also played in the NCAA, and made it to the finals where he went against Magic Johnson. Dirk on the other hand, grew up in Germany playing tennis and Handball. He never started playing the game until he was a late teen, and came into the NBA with practically no experience.