Josh Howard owes the fans an apology

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

This debate, while interesting, has morphed into an episode of the Michael Irvin show.

You mean we're going to talk about football or his personal life because we don't know enough to talk about anything else, even though football isn't in the news at all????

Good lord I hate that show.

[sike]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Howard will be fine. He looked good filling the lane next to Kidd tonight.

he will soon learn what all guys who play with Kidd learn: "I can score easier with this point guard than with my previous point guard."

when he does learn this, he will realize that there really isn't any "sacrifice" to speak of...not one that isn't immediately outweighed by all the "positives" that Kidd will bring to his game.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

You mean we're going to talk about football or his personal life because we don't know enough to talk about anything else, even though football isn't in the news at all????

Good lord I hate that show.

Must spread rep.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I hate that show.

Like 88....can't stand the arrogant little turd who thinks he knows everything....who the heck is that guy???!!!

[BGMaverick9]

Since Utah his game HAS changed. The jump-shot chucking has gone away or really been reduced. He is working on attacking more. I just think it's something he is unsure about doing or he's still trying to find a way to click with Kidd. People may have said you're the new Vince or RJ, but he doesn't want to be that, he still wants to be Josh. But he needs to figure out what will keep him Josh but be a BETTER one.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Ha! Nice reference.

I'd been meaning to ask you what you thought of it so far, after you brought it up a while back.

I don't hear it much, but what I do hear seems to center around really strange topics.

it is far better as a lab experiment than a sports talk show...

Mike is actually rather interesting at times....but they must remove the antichrist they have working with him...that guy sucks the life out of me in about 2 minutes of listening.

[sike]

well as long as we've all agreed that I am right I feel good about this little chat.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by sike

when he does learn this, he will realize that there really isn't any "sacrifice" to speak of...not one that isn't immediately outweighed by all the "positives" that Kidd will bring to his game.

Ah, but the entire point of the sacrifice is that , once the big "positive" hits, you no longer worry about what you gave up!

Hopefully, once we get to that point, you'll be exactly right and Josh will realize that he actually has benefited. If not, and he's still focused on what he "gave up" come playoffs or offseason, then it may be time to shop him.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

well as long as we've all agreed that I am right I feel good about this little chat.

If I lie and tell you I agree, can I go to bed?

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by jthig32

If I lie and tell you I agree, can I go to bed?

If you do, you'll go to bed thinking about sike.

There's a scary proposition.

[sike]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

Ah, but the entire point of the sacrifice is that , once the big "positive" hits, you no longer worry about what you gave up!

Hopefully, once we get to that point, you'll be exactly right and Josh will realize that he actually has benefited. If not, and he's still focused on what he "gave up" come playoffs or offseason, then it may be time to shop him.

I'd prefer to say that I'm currently right...and Josh will soon realize that he was right in making the perceived "sacrifice", which actually turned out to be no "sacrifice" at all.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

If you do, you'll go to bed thinking about sike.

There's a scary proposition.

scary? yes....unusual occurrence? no.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by sike

I'd prefer to say that I'm currently right...and Josh will soon realize that he was right in making the perceived "sacrifice", which actually turned out to be no "sacrifice" at all.

Fair enough. You are right--in fact, you're the most right I've ever heard anyone. About anything.

[monty55555]

Never mind the same page.

At times, Jason Kidd and Josh Howard have looked like characters in separate chapters. The expected instant chemistry between the pass-first future Hall of Fame point guard and the slashing small forward has yet to completely click.

"I don't want to overanalyze," coach Avery Johnson said before the Mavericks faced the New York Knicks on Monday. "It hasn't happened the way we want it to happen, but it will happen."

In his first 11 games with Kidd, Howard had averaged 15.5 points per game, nearly four under his season average, and shot 39.1 percent (66-of-169) from the field.

Because Kidd's strong suit is his court vision and because Howard is at his best going to the basket, it should work. Johnson suggested that Howard just needs to know where Kidd is and what he might be thinking.

Howard showed flashes Monday, scoring 14 points and finishing several fast breaks off Kidd passes.

"Man, if I get that question one more time," Howard said when asked about him and Kidd clicking. "He can't look for me every time down the court. We have other guys who play. I'm not worrying about clicking."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...s.3c2946b.html

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

scary? yes....unusual occurrence? no.

Get out of my head man!

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by monty55555

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...s.3c2946b.html

Sounds very team-centered, not me me me.

[sike]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

Fair enough. You are right--in fact, you're the most right I've ever heard anyone. About anything.

See, you've come to the dark side indeed....I didn't even believe any of that garbage I argued...but I wore you down.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Sounds very team-centered, not me me me.

Sacrifice...

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I don't think he's a smart guy on the court at all, re-read my comment. I do believe he's smarter than a heck of a lot of athletes off the court. But even that isn't all that relevant--the only reason that matters is because I am quite sure he knows the meaning of the word sacrifice, and he in fact used it perfectly.

I don't think he is at all a smart guy, off the court or on. And for that matter, I think his comments are evidence of that. In fact, I'm pretty sure the last adjective I would use to describe Josh Howard would be "smart." Ahtletic, yes. Skilled, sure. Smart? No.

I can't get on board with your comparisons to Dirk, because Dirk is the anomaly. He really is. He's "selfish" as you describe to the extent that he is personally motivated, but that's not really the context I'm using "selfish" in. Dirk is completely atypical of pro athletes because he is so amazingly humble and deferential to others in terms of his words. Holding Howard (or anyone) to the standard that Dirk sets is a bit unreasonable.

I think you are casting too broad a net here. Flaco has already talked about hockey players. What about football players? The closest you are going to come to Josh Howard is Terrell Owens--and that is a big stretch, seeing as how Terrell has way more skins on the wall than Howard might ever have. And how does Terrell behave? His quarterback is the guy. He's the guy who makes it happen. Terrell knows it.

Dirk isn't atypical of pro athletes. Romo has a similar attitude. For that matter, so does Brady. Don't try to sell me on the idea that every pro athlete is so full of himself that he is not a team player.

Josh is younger and still clearly focused somewhat on himself as a player, and I really can't fault him for that.

Well, I can, when it undermines the team.

This is a guy who had an awfully rough upbringing. This is a guy who felt snubbed early on in college, felt snubbed on draft day, and basically makes his living off trying to prove himself to people feels "wronged" him.

I'm about sick and tired of hearing about all the "wrongs" that have been given Josh Howard. This is a guy who was awarded the AAC Player of the Year and was drafted in the first round. This is a guy in his fifth year in the NBA who still can't pass on the break. This is a guy with a huge NBA contract. Forgive me if I cry no tears about his upbringing.

Given all that, I completely understand why a guy like Howard would feel that he's giving something up by no longer being second fiddle. He is very concerned with letting people know that he is worth something, because for a lot of his life he's felt like people haven't given him his due.

Yeah. He got a scholarship to Wake Forest to play basketball. He was drafted in the first round of the NBA draft. If his "due" was rightfully better than that, then again, forgive me for not showing pity.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by sike

See, you've come to the dark side indeed....I didn't even believe any of that garbage I argued...but I wore you down.

That is so freaking solid. Brilliant tactics.

[jthig32]

I think we offically have identifid Chum's latest victim. He has released Cuban and he has released Jet now that the's not running the PG.

Which is fine, the board wouldn't be the same without Chum having a target.

But, Chum, if you think Dirk's mindset and humility is the norm for a large percentage of pro athletes...well I think you've lost it.

Seriously, he so, so atypical in that regard.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think we offically have identifid Chum's latest victim. He has released Cuban and he has released Jet now that the's not running the PG.

Which is fine, the board wouldn't be the same without Chum having a target.

But, Chum, if you think Dirk's mindset and humility is the norm for a large percentage of pro athletes...well I think you've lost it.

Seriously, he so, so atypical in that regard.

if he targets JHo he won't be able to for long.....because that young man is coming around!!! Can I get an amen from the congregation????!!!

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

But, Chum, if you think Dirk's mindset and humility is the norm for a large percentage of pro athletes...well I think you've lost it.

Seriously, he so, so atypical in that regard.

That's why I/we love Dirk!

[jthig32]

I feel like I've been incredibly deceivd by Sike in this thread. He was like a sheep in wolf clothing (intentionally backward), preaching the JHO hate and then singing his praises.

I need to sleep.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think we offically have identifid Chum's latest victim. He has released Cuban and he has released Jet now that the's not running the PG.

Which is fine, the board wouldn't be the same without Chum having a target.

But, Chum, if you think Dirk's mindset and humility is the norm for a large percentage of pro athletes...well I think you've lost it.

Seriously, he so, so atypical in that regard.

You think Dirk is much different than Michael Irvin and Troy Aikman? I think you are deluding yourself to suggest that Dirk's work ethic is one-of-a-kind.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I feel like I've been incredibly deceivd by Sike in this thread. He was like a sheep in wolf clothing (intentionally backward), preaching the JHO hate and then singing his praises.

I need to sleep.

I'm a complex man.


This is sike and I approve this message.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You think Dirk is much different than Michael Irvin and Troy Aikman? I think you are deluding yourself to suggest that Dirk's work ethic is one-of-a-kind.

I'm not discussing work ethic.

I'm discussing humility and deference of the spotlight.

And yes, Dirk is pretty much the polar opposite of Mike Irvin when discussing humility.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I don't think he is at all a smart guy, off the court or on. And for that matter, I think his comments are evidence of that. In fact, I'm pretty sure the last adjective I would use to describe Josh Howard would be "smart." Ahtletic, yes. Skilled, sure. Smart? No.

Well, I do. And again, doesn't even really matter. For purposes of this conversation, he only needs to be smart enough to know what word to use, and, by your own definition, he used the correct word.

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think you are casting too broad a net here. Flaco has already talked about hockey players. What about football players? The closest you are going to come to Josh Howard is Terrell Owens--and that is a big stretch, seeing as how Terrell has way more skins on the wall than Howard might ever have. And how does Terrell behave? His quarterback is the guy. He's the guy who makes it happen. Terrell knows it.

The fact is that pro athletes have massive egos. Almost all of them. You don't get to that level of competition without one. I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here. TO doesn't whine cause Romo gives him the ball. If they sign a Randy Moss and suddenly TO is catching 25-30 less passes a year, I guarantee you we hear from TO about it, especially when the team goes through a rough patch like the Mavs have.

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Dirk isn't atypical of pro athletes. Romo has a similar attitude. For that matter, so does Brady. Don't try to sell me on the idea that every pro athlete is so full of himself that he is not a team player.

Josh Howard isn't so full of himself that he's not a team player. That's exactly why he's talking about the necessary sacrifice he has to make in order to make the team better. As often happens, you're attributing points to me that I simply am not making.

And sorry, but all you've done is pick 2 of the more selfless NFL athletes and used them as "proof" that Dirk is not atypical. All 3 of them are atypical. Atypical doesn't mean "one-of-a-kind", it just means not per the norm. Those guys are certainly much, much more team-centric than your average pro athlete. Do you really believe otherwise? For every player like Romo/Brady/Dirk you list, I could probably list 5 that are considerably wrapped up in their own egos.

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I'm about sick and tired of hearing about all the "wrongs" that have been given Josh Howard. This is a guy who was awarded the AAC Player of the Year and was drafted in the first round. This is a guy in his fifth year in the NBA who still can't pass on the break. This is a guy with a huge NBA contract. Forgive me if I cry no tears about his upbringing.

Yeah. He got a scholarship to Wake Forest to play basketball. He was drafted in the first round of the NBA draft. If his "due" was rightfully better than that, then again, forgive me for not showing pity.

No one is asking you to cry tears. I'm painting a picture, based on the weight of the evidence, on what kind of person Josh is, and why he's reacting the way he is. He plays the underdog, the "I'm so slighted" routine, and that's where his motivation comes from.

I have no idea why you think I'm soliciting sympathy from you--I'm not. I'm just stating facts and reminding everyone of what drives the guy.

Given that, it makes perfect sense to me why he thinks it's a sacrifice.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Ha! Nice reference.

I'd been meaning to ask you what you thought of it so far, after you brought it up a while back.

I don't hear it much, but what I do hear seems to center around really strange topics.

I like it. Like I alluded to earlier, they seem to get into a debate about the meaning of a word every other day and I can do without that. But as far as I'm concerned, it's still the best thing that ESPN throws out there.

Of course the big weakness of the show is that Mike isn't really well versed on any sport outside of football so there will be some long days over the next couple of months. IMO they should go the ticket route and not even try to talk about a sport they have no interest in. I generally find Irvin an interesting listen on a variety of subjects and I'm sure others do too. The last thing I want to hear is him acting like a hockey fan come May (or whenever the hockey playoff are)

When training camp starts I'll probably spend more time there than I will on the ticket. IMO Mike has better football insights than anyone in the local media.

Kevin Kiley is smug and cocky in the Collin Cowherd sort of way but I think he makes a good co-host because he's not afraid to challenge Irvin when he says something outrageous or just plain crazy. A lot of hosts in that situation wouldn't feel comfortable challenging the star athlete but he does and that's a good thing.

I should probably add the disclaimer (as if it's not already obvious) that I'm a huge Michael Irvin fan. I loved him as a player and an ESPN anlayst. Plus I ran into him a few of times in Canton a couple of years back and he's the nicest, most down to earth guy you'd want to meet. Off topic but Emmit is aloof and stand off-ish.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You think Dirk is much different than Michael Irvin and Troy Aikman? I think you are deluding yourself to suggest that Dirk's work ethic is one-of-a-kind.

In this materialistic bling'n'Cribs-driven NBA???

You bet your ass that Dirk is a one-of-a-kind!


Basketball isn't like football - one guy can carry a basketball team (Jordan, Kobe)... Football is more of a team sport - solid work ethic is a prerequisite to even COMPETE in the NFL...

[chumdawg]

Guys at the top of their craft don't get there by birth. They get there by paying the price of practice after practice. It is an insult to the Jordans and Irvins and Aikmans and Nowitzkis of this world to say that they were just born with it. It is an insult to the Tiger Woods who drains one hundred three-foot putts before he goes home for the night.

Champions are built in practice more than they are on the playing field.

And I'm here to tell you, no champion ever felt that he sacrificed something so that his teammate would look better. Now, it may be the case that certain champions DID sacrifice something, good role players being what they are. But they certainly never felt as though they did.

It's an insult to the Worthy's and McHale's and Drexler's of the world to think that any player has to sacrifice something in order to win a ring.

[BGMaverick9]

Unless Dirk does a 180 behind the scenes, he is one of the most humble superstars I've seen. He is all about the team and does what he can to make the team better. He shys away from the spotlight but wants to thrive in the moment. He wants the moment, but not the limelight afterwards.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Guys at the top of their craft don't get there by birth. They get there by paying the price of practice after practice. It is an insult to the Jordans and Irvins and Aikmans and Nowitzkis of this world to say that they were just born with it. It is an insult to the Tiger Woods who drains one hundred three-foot putts before he goes home for the night.

Champions are built in practice more than they are on the playing field.

Agreed. I'm not saying Josh has some good reason to feel like he's special, but just that he does, and that's what motivates him.

Originally Posted by chumdawg

And I'm here to tell you, no champion ever felt that he sacrificed something so that his teammate would look better. Now, it may be the case that certain champions DID sacrifice something, good role players being what they are. But they certainly never felt as though they did.

...and I'm casting too broad a net?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Guys at the top of their craft don't get there by birth. They get there by paying the price of practice after practice. It is an insult to the Jordans and Irvins and Aikmans and Nowitzkis of this world to say that they were just born with it. It is an insult to the Tiger Woods who drains one hundred three-foot putts before he goes home for the night.

Champions are built in practice more than they are on the playing field.

And I'm here to tell you, no champion ever felt that he sacrificed something so that his teammate would look better. Now, it may be the case that certain champions DID sacrifice something, good role players being what they are. But they certainly never felt as though they did.

It's an insult to the Worthy's and McHale's and Drexler's of the world to think that any player has to sacrifice something in order to win a ring.

You honestly don't think that Pippen feels like he sacrificed something to play in Jordan's shadow? Really?

[Underdog]

Now we're arguing "work ethic" versus "humility" - not exactly the same thing...

[ShaggyDirk]

I have tired-head now. Thanks.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

The fact is that pro athletes have massive egos. Almost all of them. You don't get to that level of competition without one. I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here. TO doesn't whine cause Romo gives him the ball. If they sign a Randy Moss and suddenly TO is catching 25-30 less passes a year, I guarantee you we hear from TO about it, especially when the team goes through a rough patch like the Mavs have.

Almost all pro athletes have massive egos? How many Cowboys have massive egos? There were 53 on the roster last year. What qualifies as "almost all?" 40? 45? Gimme a break. Marion Barber, a Pro Bowler, doesn't even talk to the press. When's the last time you saw Flozell Adams' face? How about Ken Hamlin? Could you pick him out of a lineup? (I'll go out on a limb and say "no way.") As for the guys you *can* pick out of a lineup...how much ego does Jason Witten have? Again, Barber? Newman? Ware? Could you even pick DeMarcus Ware out of a lineup? The cat is one of the best in the league at what he does, and I would bet that you wouldn't recognize his face.

Don't tell me that every pro athlete has a massive ego. It's simply not the case. I bet you couldn't identify any Dallas Star outside of Modano and maybe Sydor. In fact, I bet you couldn't identify Kevin Millwood.

Outside of the NBA, pro atheletes are more often than not fairly anonymous to the average fan.

And sorry, but all you've done is pick 2 of the more selfless NFL athletes and used them as "proof" that Dirk is not atypical. All 3 of them are atypical. Atypical doesn't mean "one-of-a-kind", it just means not per the norm. Those guys are certainly much, much more team-centric than your average pro athlete. Do you really believe otherwise? For every player like Romo/Brady/Dirk you list, I could probably list 5 that are considerably wrapped up in their own egos.

You can? Then do it. Name me five NFL athletes that are way more wrapped up in their egos for every guy like Romo or Brady. You won't get to ten players, period, much less five for every guy that you see as ego-driven. Fifty-plus players play for every NFL team. Most NFL players would not be recognized in a crowd. Would you know Frank Gore if you saw him? Adrian Peterson? Dwayne Bowe? Kyle Vanden Bosch?

No one is asking you to cry tears. I'm painting a picture, based on the weight of the evidence, on what kind of person Josh is, and why he's reacting the way he is. He plays the underdog, the "I'm so slighted" routine, and that's where his motivation comes from.

It's time for him to get over that. He was the AAC player of the year. He was a first-round draft choice. He has a fat NBA contract. He is not a kid anymore.

[FINtastic]

Btw, it's the ACC not the AAC. Josh Howard was the Atlantic Coast Conference Player of the Year in 2003.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Because Kidd's strong suit is his court vision and because Howard is at his best going to the basket, it should work. Johnson suggested that Howard just needs to know where Kidd is and what he might be thinking.

I just realized how backwards that second statement is.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Off topic but Emmit is aloof and stand off-ish.

woah...just sort of went out of your way to tarnish those "diamonds"!

Why am I not surprise about Emmit being other than an "everyman". DJ, Troy, Mike, Jay N., Nate, Russell M., etc....so many of those guys seem like they would be very decent guys to talk to...but Emmit did always present himself in a slightly less than friendly way.