PGT: It's Gonna Be A Helluva Season - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

tsar · 10-29-2014, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaverickGold

Really long winded, full of assumptions, post about Dirk being past his prime and passing the reigns

That could have been said in one sentence.

Dirk said he's feeling better than ever and felt like at the start of the game he didn't need to score as much because his team mates were doing their job. He said he probably should have been more aggressive in the 3rd. Dirk is still the #1 option on offense - there's no doubt about that (it all starts and ends with him in this system).

EricaLubarsky · 10-29-2014, 05:38 PM

Dirk has always been a bit too quick to pass the ball rather than take a shot himself. It's why Dirk's a champion and Carmello has the "worst playoff record of anyone in the last 20 years" at .308. I also assume that he's even more eager to pass-- or at least more tentative-- since this is a new team.

I didn't mean to imply that Dirk caused that loss-- sometimes you just miss shots and if anyone deserves blame it's Carlisle for not stopping play and drawing up a play. Part of me even wonders if Carlisle didn't call a TO, because he didn't want to be the guy to piss on the Spurs parade on their opening night while showing off some of his killer end-of-game plays.

I do think that Dirk has to accept that if he has a decent opportunity to shoot it or even draw a double/triple, he has to take the shot or draw the defenders first and then pass. There's nothing more frustrating than having one of the best NBA player to ever live trying to get the hockey assist on the last play or even just standing there while lesser players shoot. Last night we passed well all game, but that last play was all about being too unselfish and too tentative (as new teams often do). No screens, Harris in the corner where he's awful, no player movement-- it was all a recipe for failure. Some of it is Rick not calling a TO. Some of it is a brand new team trying to set a tone by being unselfish, and some of it is obviously lack of games played together.

jthig32 · 10-29-2014, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Dirk has always been a bit too quick to pass the ball rather than take a shot himself. It's why Dirk's a champion and Carmello has the "worst playoff record of anyone in the last 20 years" at .308. I also assume that he's even more eager to pass-- or at least more tentative-- since this is a new team.

I didn't mean to imply that Dirk caused that loss-- sometimes you just miss shots and if anyone deserves blame it's Carlisle for not stopping play and drawing up a play. Part of me even wonders if Carlisle didn't call a TO, because he didn't want to be the guy to piss on the Spurs parade on their opening night while showing off some of his killer end-of-game plays.

I do think that Dirk has to accept that if he has a decent opportunity to shoot it or even draw a double/triple, he has to take the shot or draw the defenders first and then pass. There's nothing more frustrating than having one of the best NBA player to ever live trying to get the hockey assist on the last play or even just standing there while lesser players shoot. Last night we passed well all game, but that last play was all about being too unselfish and too tentative (as new teams often do). No screens, Harris in the corner where he's awful, no player movement-- it was all a recipe for failure. Some of it is Rick not calling a TO. Some of it is a brand new team trying to set a tone by being unselfish, and some of it is obviously lack of games played together.

A recipe for failure that generated a good look and could have generated a great look with one more pass. That just doesn't make sense.

And, again, he DID draw the double. What exactly would have been better about that play if Duncan was two feet closer to Dirk? He'd already completely abandoned his man, forcing Parker to abandon his to cover Duncan's. The dominoe effect caused by a double team had already happened. So why does it matter if Dirk takes a dribble and then passes? If anything, that pass just becomes harder.

EricaLubarsky · 10-29-2014, 05:42 PM

You obviously see that picture different and see a double on Dirk. There's no arguing points based on evidence that we disagree on.

jthig32 · 10-29-2014, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

You obviously see that picture different and see a double on Dirk. There's no arguing points based on evidence that we disagree on.

There's literally no other way to see the picture. Duncan has left his man completely and is waiting for Dirk to drive or hold the ball long enough for him to get there.

Because Duncan left his man, Tony Parker has left his man, and is attempting to stay in front of Tyson.

Devin is wide open. Once he catches the ball he will either have a wide open shot, or Manu will recover, leaving his man, etc etc.

This is textbook. There's no other way to interpret it. It's not subjective. It's fact. If you want to quibble on whether Dirk was doubled at that instant, fine. Let's say Duncan was guarding air. Either way, his decision, which was directly related to Dirk's position on the floor, caused the chain of events.

EricaLubarsky · 10-29-2014, 05:47 PM

Fine, you win. Congrats. I guess I'm a dummy. I'm sorry that I didn't see what a more experienced observer saw.

jthig32 · 10-29-2014, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaverickGold

I don't believe this to be true. If you watch that possession closely, it looks to me that Dirk never had one iota of a thought whether to shoot or pass. He catches that ball with full intention of passing, regardless of the defense.

He catches the ball looking to his right while Duncan is approaching from the left. He didn't see Duncan approaching and then abort the idea of a shot and go for the pass. He didn't see Duncan approaching, period.

Now it's reasonable for him to believe that he will be double teamed as soon as he touches it. Statistics say over his interminable career that the double-team is going to come 99.999% of the time, so he knew that just catching the ball was going to draw the double team and open someone up. He caught the ball and looked for the pass. He didn't catch and decide whether to shoot or pass.

Your scenario of how an offense runs intelligently is spot-on for regular play. Yes, the smart move is the extra pass to the wide open player. However, this is crunch time. This is the game on the line. This is when the superstar is expected to be selfish and create their own shot. This is their moment.

Prime Dirk doesn't make that pass. The coach doesn't expect him to make that pass either. The expectation would have been, if you can get the ball to Dirk, Dirk has to take a shot regardless of what the defense reads. That's his moment, his shot. This isn't prime Dirk.

The truth is, we don't know why Dirk didn't consider a shot. My guess is that he's no longer prime Dirk. It's no longer Dirk and the gang. He's a support player now. This is to be either Monta's or Chandler's team (or both). One or both of them need to get used to being in that role.

Last year (early), it was explicitly stated by Carlisle that he was drawing up plays for Monta to have that last shot.

It's my opinion that the reins are being passed. It was the first game of the year. I don't think Dirk catches the ball with every intention to pass if this were the playoffs. You don't try to pass the reins in the playoffs. You work guys into the role starting at the beginning of the year.

Stating that my opinion is silly and then arguing that there was a decision to not shoot due to a double team, one that Dirk couldn't have seen until he was already in the act of passing, neither invalidates my opinion or changes it.

Dirk did see the double team. It's incredibly obvious that he did.

DevinHarriswillstart · 10-29-2014, 06:13 PM

We're not even having this discussion if Parsons makes that shot. Not need to overanalyze...let's move on.

NeedlesKane · 10-29-2014, 06:29 PM

Man... I bet a bunch of NBA players would love to be on this Mavs team now. Maybe the Mavs will waive Ricky Ledo and sign Ray Allen next. Also I wonder why Charlie Villanueva wasn't played for even a minute. I bet he could have provided some instant offense.

Underdog · 10-29-2014, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

We're not even having this discussion if Parsons makes that shot.

Basketball...

NeedlesKane · 10-29-2014, 06:57 PM

If we won, and Parsons, our $15 million man, only scored 8 points I'd have a hard time with it... he scored 5.

Murphy3 · 10-29-2014, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

You obviously see that picture different and see a double on Dirk. There's no arguing points based on evidence that we disagree on.

If there would have been no double on Dirk, San Antonio wouldn't have been scrambling to get to shooters. Parsons had a pretty good look.. one more pass and Ellis would have a gloriously wide open look. That doesn't happen unless someone creates that by drawing a double. So yes, you might be seeing something different..but I don't know what the hell it is you're looking at.

dude1394 · 10-29-2014, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedlesKane

Man... I bet a bunch of NBA players would love to be on this Mavs team now. Maybe the Mavs will waive Ricky Ledo and sign Ray Allen next. Also I wonder why Charlie Villanueva wasn't played for even a minute. I bet he could have provided some instant offense.

They needed some players to stick their feet under 3 ptrs... wow...that was some outside shooting...

dude1394 · 10-29-2014, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

If there would have been no double on Dirk, San Antonio wouldn't have been scrambling to get to shooters. Parsons had a pretty good look.. one more pass and Ellis would have a gloriously wide open look. That doesn't happen unless someone creates that by drawing a double. So yes, you might be seeing something different..but I don't know what the hell it is you're looking at.

As dirk said the safe play was to take the shot. No telling if one more pass could have been made...and they would have had to handle it perfectly to get it off.

Pretty decent shot but I wish chandler had been just a little closer to the line, that I don't understand much. A good 3 feet it appeared beyond.

Heck of a nice game...

Budapest Maverick · 10-30-2014, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedlesKane

If we won, and Parsons, our $15 million man, only scored 8 points I'd have a hard time with it... he scored 5.

No you wouldn't. Not if he makes that shot.

sike · 10-30-2014, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No you wouldn't. Not if he makes that shot.

Exactly. They are still figuring each other out on offense.

I liked Parsons defensive activity...just wasn't active/aggressive/efficient enough on offense.

I expect it will take time, but I also expect that the defense of the Spurs had something to do w it.

If we see the SAME thing against the Jazz tonight, that'll be a bit more concerning.

Murphy3 · 10-30-2014, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

As dirk said the safe play was to take the shot. No telling if one more pass could have been made...and they would have had to handle it perfectly to get it off.

Pretty decent shot but I wish chandler had been just a little closer to the line, that I don't understand much. A good 3 feet it appeared beyond.

Heck of a nice game...

Well yeah, if they throw the ball away, it wouldn't have worked out. But there was more than enough time to make the next pass to Ellis for the open look.