MAVS vs JAZZ - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

LRB · 12-21-2002, 07:28 PM

I don't think that the kick outs are a problem either. But a lot of Finely's shots come when they run isolation for Finely and he shoots over 2 or 3 guys with the shot clock on his back. To Finelys credit he is such a superb athelete that he can make these shots but not near his normal percentage when getting good looks. It does nothing for the other players who tend to stand and watch Fin. These shots could stand to be reduced. But by going into Dirk more it should open up Fin and the rest of the team for better shots. Fin would only have to give up a couple of shots net, but his scoring average should stay the same or possibly increase becaus he is getting better shots. Basketball is a team game. What the Mavs need is a plan to create good quality shots consistently in the half court game. We want to stay out of the half court game if we can, but if we are forced to it we should go with something that will help everyone be involved and have better shots. Dirk is our best player and our best offensive player and our best rebounder. Let's put his talent to use instead of parking it at the 3pt line all game. If we give the defense something else to think about it will be that much harder to defend us.

ÜberDirk · 12-21-2002, 07:35 PM

"UD, you´re really a funny guy ...

if dirk gets his touches in the paint, he gets a hand in his face and shoots bricks. that´s what he has done all year so far, when defended low post with hands in his face (and man, malone really got big ones) he starts doing jumpers or jacking up threes and starts getting cold.

if this happens, here comes UD claiming Nash isn´t creating shots for him.

now let´s face this: last game you were claiming dirk is injured and shouldnt have even played, and all of a sudden you want to take him inside against the most muscling power forward in the whole nba?

then again - as it has been stated, dirk went to the line ALL THE TIME, which is not really a sign of him getting no touches, but finley, who carried us for the last two games (and carried us when dirk DISAPPEARED) is getting cold ...

will you EVER learn that basketball is played with 5 guys and dirk alone wouldnt win anything?

we need finley IN the game, so not feeding him the ball if he´s cold will simply KILL us.
we rely on finley getting shots and hitting some of them - last nights game is a clear sign that we simply cannot go on feeding dirk and nash all the time, since two guys are just not enough.

nevertheless ... we will lose some.

happens.

and good, since guys get a little overboard if we wouldnt ... both players and coaches, but in special FANS."

Can you really be that stupid???? We need to give it to dirk in the post more BECAUSE it is a team game. Watch our games, dirk gets doubled in the post, this will lead to OTHER player's getting wide open looks.

Chiwas · 12-21-2002, 07:37 PM

<< Or can nellie NOT coach a big guy? >>

Can Nellie coach a big team? He could take the team to be a big team, but can he keep the team in this higher level AND can he make the next step? Is he coaching a big team? Aren't he and his assistants seeing what we are seeing? Am I a bad fan, or not fan at all, if I make these questions?

Basketball game is a complicated subject.

dude1394 · 12-21-2002, 07:52 PM

<< I don't think that the kick outs are a problem either. But a lot of Finely's shots come when they run isolation for Finely and he shoots over 2 or 3 guys with the shot clock on his back. >>

LRB: I'm not sure I agree with you on this..My impression is that finley has been getting some wide open threes this year. To his credit he's been knocking 'em down and I'm okay with that. But when the team really needs a basket, it can't come from a 3pt shot and has to come from something closer in. Utah for example last night got tons of shots in close.

Also have you noticed that no one will take a 15 footer on this team but bradley. Maybe dirk on drive to the paint. It's a 3 or nothing it seems. It seems like getting a few 10-12 footers would count as a low-post shot as well with this team.

LRB · 12-21-2002, 08:05 PM

<<

<< I don't think that the kick outs are a problem either. But a lot of Finely's shots come when they run isolation for Finely and he shoots over 2 or 3 guys with the shot clock on his back. >>

LRB: I'm not sure I agree with you on this..My impression is that finley has been getting some wide open threes this year. To his credit he's been knocking 'em down and I'm okay with that. But when the team really needs a basket, it can't come from a 3pt shot and has to come from something closer in. Utah for example last night got tons of shots in close.

Also have you noticed that no one will take a 15 footer on this team but bradley. Maybe dirk on drive to the paint. It's a 3 or nothing it seems. It seems like getting a few 10-12 footers would count as a low-post shot as well with this team. >>

Dude: I agree that we can't totally rely on the 3pt field goal. I think our guys should move in a few feet if they aren't hitting the 3. After all 2pts is better than none. But by going down to Dirk it doesn't have to just to free up people for 3's. Mavs could use some cutters especially the guys whose man is leaving to double Dirk. People can spot for the medium range J's also.

But my main point is instead of going directly to Fin in isolation, go inside to Dirk and then come back out to Fin. Fin can shoot the 3, the medium J, or drive. It just helps to go inside out. The defenses focus will be on Dirk, and when Fin gets that 12 foot J he will be shooting over 0 to 1 guys instead of 2 to 3. I definetly not advocating either postup or 3. Just go inside first or at least make the defense seriously defend going inside to open everything else up. And if Fin should miss that 12 ft J, Dirk will be sitting close to the basket with a much better chance for an offensive board than out at the 3pt arc.

FilthyFinMavs · 12-21-2002, 08:12 PM

Well in the NBA nowadays you rarely get a open 15 foot jumpshot and if you do it is either because you can't hit it or because the defense doesn't trust your jumper.

MavsFanFinley · 12-22-2002, 01:45 AM

So let's look at the stats shall we, Dirk, then Mike

FG% - 44.5, 43.2
3PT% - 38.7, 41.1
FGMA - 163-366, 207-479
3PMA - 36-93, 51-124
FTMA - 120-140, 75-86

So mike has taken 100 more shots than dirk. I hate to admit it but I'm starting to think like Uberdirk...

While I agree with the fact that Dirk needs more shots or touches, at least, I have to point out something about these stats. You look and think, why the hell does Finley have 113 more shots than Dirk?

It's not pointed out that Dirk only took 3 shots in the Clipper game before leaving with the sprained ankle while Fin took 15. It's also not pointed out that Dirk missed the SA and Memphis game in which Finley took 45 shots combined in those games. So, we're looking at 57 (12(Clipper),23(SA), 22(Grizz) shots that should be taken out of that total. So, that would be 422 for Finley.

Still, that's 38 more shots that Fin has taken than Dirk. You can very well argue that that's still too many, but it doesn't sound as bad as over 100.

digit · 12-22-2002, 05:47 AM

Dirk needs to get more touches/shots, that`s a simple and easy to install formula to take this ball club farher in the playoffs...did I already mention, that I think the Mavs will win it all this season??

seelenjaeger · 12-22-2002, 06:00 AM

so what do you want UD?

dirk getting touches or dirk getting shots ... when dirk gets double teamed and get the ball out to finley for the shot, finley will get far more shots than dirk ... guess what will happen - ud will pop up complaining about dirk getting no shots

and no - dirk getting more touches inside is not about our team-ball, as simple as we cannot afford slowing down our offense. we´re a passing, swifting, moving offense, we cannot rely on getting someone low who spends half of the possession time waiting the other team to double team him ... go watch our games yourself ud - and stop calling others names until you realize it´s not all about dirk ...

MFFL · 12-22-2002, 11:31 AM

<< that's 38 more shots that Fin has taken than Dirk. You can very well argue that that's still too many, but it doesn't sound as bad as over 100. >>

Why is Finley getting criticized for doing what he's supposed to? His primary job on the team is to score points. When the ball comes to Fin and he has a good look then he is supposed to take the shot.

I think most of the problem is that Dirk is too passive to demand the ball. There is a difference between wanting the ball and demanding the ball. If Dirk goes to Nash and says "When we go to a pick and roll and the point guard switches to me - GIVE ME THE BALL" then Nash would do it. But Dirk doesn't demand the ball and so Nash doesn't give him the ball.

For the Mavs to take the next step, Dirk will have to overcome his lingering reluctance to dominate his own teammates.

MavsFanFinley · 12-22-2002, 04:22 PM

<< Why is Finley getting criticized for doing what he's supposed to? >>

I just want to point out that I'm not criticizing Finley at all. I was just pointing out that the stats that were given weren't really acurate.

I don't think it's a big deal about shots on this team. The big 3 take the most and the role players, for the most part, have been doing their job offensively when called on.

I think the only concern is feeding the hot hand at the time. Be it Finley, Dirk or Nash, we go away from that player when they're hitting.

I think some posters are just looking to nitpick at Finley. Before, they had a legit argument about him not going to the basket more, not getting to the ft line more, not rebounding enough, not enough steals, etc...

This year, I don't think anyone can complain about his production in those areas. He's taking better shots, he's attacking the basket more, he's done a decent job at getting to the ft line, he's been a terror on the boards, he's only averaging 1.3 steals a game, but he's picked it up in most areas.

I think some are just picking about Finley taking more shots than Dirk. This year, so far, I don't think it's hurt the team because of it.

Chiwas · 12-22-2002, 05:17 PM

<< I think some are just picking about Finley taking more shots than Dirk. This year, so far, I don't think it's hurt the team because of it. >>

I insist in my thoughts about it: there is no individual weakness or voids in the way Mavs is playing; maybe sometimes one of them has a bad day PASSING or SCORING but in the overall tendency, the mavs are following a system; the Head Coach orders the plays, general or specific, the point guard try to build them in the offense to score, the defense try to play them to prevent scoring. If in 26 games Nowitzki has fewer touches than Finley is because it is the way that was planned; it seems that we have a lost here if Nowitzki's FGM pct.,or assists, are higher than Finley's, but what is happening at the same time; for example, what is our % of offensive rebounds when Nowitzki miss compared when Finley miss; there are a lot of possibilities hidden behind the statistics or the hot and open man.

Bayliss · 12-22-2002, 06:54 PM

MFFL, Dirk can call for the ball all he wants to... if people don't pass it to him, then that's pathetic. There have been numerous times this year that the only time Dirk gets to touch the ball on the offensive end is if he grabs the defensive rebound and dribbles it up himself.

That should never happen. Dirk should never go over 4 offensive possessions in a row w/o a touch. PERIOD And Dirk not getting touches is the coach's as well as the teammates' fault.

The offense has to run through him. Nellie needs to tell the players that Dirk will get the ball on the blocks, on the wing, wherever. And everything will run through him. But Nellie doesn't call plays like that. The only time the offense runs through Dirk is when Donn Nelson coaches the team.

LRB · 12-22-2002, 07:22 PM

<< Why is Finley getting criticized for doing what he's supposed to? >>

I'm one of those advocating more touches and shots for Dirk, but I don't fault Finley for this. I likewise feel that it is unfair to blame Dirk for this. Basketball is a team game. This change if made needs to be a team change. That involves coaches, players including Dirk, Fin, Nash and the rest of the team.

I certainly don't feel that Finely has hurt the team. Actually I'm more thankful for having Fin than ever and that's saying alot. Fin's leadership value to this team is inmeasurable and I feel that he probably has more to do with the chemistry than anything. If you don't feel that chemistry is important take a look at the fakers this year or Portland for the last several.

But as good as the Mavs are, I think that they can get better. Dallas strength is the transition game. IMO we should not forego any good shots we get out of transition in order to get Dirk the ball more. If he's hot and open and so's Fin who isn't hot, Dirk should get the ball. If Fin is hot and open and so is Dirk who isn't hot, Fin should get the ball.

Do when and only when the Mavs are forced into a half court game because the transition opportunites weren't there, they should try to get Dirk more touches. More of those touches than what is currently being done should be down low. The weakness to the Mavs offense right now is the half court game. By adding another potent option in the half court that makes them more difficult to defend. But for Dirk to get really good he needs repetitions in games. We don't want to wait until the playoffs until we need it and then not be ready. Anybody remember the problems the Mavs had with Peja guarding Dirk last year in the playoffs before he was hurt? That should be easy money. Dirk posts the much shorter Peja and either scores or gets a teamate an open shot every time. Problem was that the Mavs weren't used to doing this and did it rather badly. And its not just Dirk. You need all 5 guys on the floor to be involved. It involves the playing posting, the passer, and the other players getting the right spacing and cutting to the basket or at least the open spot when their man leaves them.

I do not think that this should be the primary offense for the Mavs, but they need to do it enough and regularly enough that it becomes instinctual and they don't think about it.

Again this is just my opinion of how a great team can get a little better and hopefully push them over the hump to go all the way in the playoffs.

MFFL · 12-22-2002, 08:16 PM

<< And Dirk not getting touches is the coach's as well as the teammates' fault. >>

I think a large portion of the blame has to go to Dirk. I cannot imagine any of the other top 10 players in the NBA accepting the role that Dirk plays. Shaq, Duncan, Kidd, etc have shouldered the responsibility of being the team leader and they force the offense to go through them.

Maybe Nellie doesn't trust turning over the keys to the car to someone who is not willing to demand the ball. Maybe Dirk needs to grow a little more and develop that leadership ability.

FilthyFinMavs · 12-22-2002, 08:49 PM

<<

<< that's 38 more shots that Fin has taken than Dirk. You can very well argue that that's still too many, but it doesn't sound as bad as over 100. >>

Why is Finley getting criticized for doing what he's supposed to? His primary job on the team is to score points. When the ball comes to Fin and he has a good look then he is supposed to take the shot.

I think most of the problem is that Dirk is too passive to demand the ball. There is a difference between wanting the ball and demanding the ball. If Dirk goes to Nash and says "When we go to a pick and roll and the point guard switches to me - GIVE ME THE BALL" then Nash would do it. But Dirk doesn't demand the ball and so Nash doesn't give him the ball.

For the Mavs to take the next step, Dirk will have to overcome his lingering reluctance to dominate his own teammates. >>

Exactly what I was thinking. Why is Finley being brought up with Dirk's touches? Lets all be honest here have we ever honestly seen Dirk scream or ask for the ball? I have seen Finley, Nick and Nash do it but have we seen Dirk? With this team the only way you get the ball is if your going to scream for the ball like everyone else does other then Dirk. I don't think you can ask Nellie to tell his players to give the ball to Dirk if he doesn't show any effort to ask for it.

LRB · 12-22-2002, 08:53 PM

<<

<< And Dirk not getting touches is the coach's as well as the teammates' fault. >>

I think a large portion of the blame has to go to Dirk. I cannot imagine any of the other top 10 players in the NBA accepting the role that Dirk plays. Shaq, Duncan, Kidd, etc have shouldered the responsibility of being the team leader and they force the offense to go through them.

Maybe Nellie doesn't trust turning over the keys to the car to someone who is not willing to demand the ball. Maybe Dirk needs to grow a little more and develop that leadership ability. >>

I think that Dirk's situation does have some differences than the other top 10 players.

1. Dirk has 2 other allstar caliber players on his team with more experience and who are the current leaders in Steve and Fin.

2. The Mavs have great chemistry right now which shouldn't be changed lightly by completely altering the leadership structure.

3. IMO there is no rule that says that a player has demand the ball and force his teamates to give it to him if he wants it down low. And I really don't want to see Dirk trying to steal the ball from Steve and Fin.

Also remember that Duncan getting the ball was a team effort. It did involve coaches, players, and Duncan. I don't remember seeing Tim stealing the ball from AJ. I DO remember Robinson conciously scaling back his game to make more room for Tim even though Robinson was still playing at all star level. Now Robinson isn't close to all star level, but when the shift came he was.

Dirk could call more vocally for the ball, but what does he do when it's not passed to him? Go public? Throw a fit? Throw a punch? Steal the ball? Anyway you look at it, even just being more vocal all on his own and not as a team effort it could disrupt the chemistry. Basketball is a team sport, why does this need to be an individual effort?

It should be noted that the times I've seen Dirk go down and post low and call for the ball, be has not gotten it more times than he has. That's just my personal observations.

It's true that Dirk may not be ready for Nellie to turn the keys over to him. But I think that it would be a good idea to find out now and don't wait until the playoffs when it will be much harder to start doing it.

I do not want to see Dirk get more touches and shots at the expense of the team. Try it as an experiment and if after a reasonable amount of time it doesn't work, don't go with it.

That's just my opinion and I can understand why someone would feel different.

MFFL · 12-22-2002, 09:28 PM

<< I do not want to see Dirk get more touches and shots at the expense of the team. >>

But somebody has to take the initiative here. Nellie should call Dirk's number down low - my suggestion is to call three post up plays per quarter with Dirk being the trigger man. But Nellie won't do it because that's not the type of coach he is.

Nash/NVE should feed the ball down low to Dirk more often - they need to feed the ball inside and let Dirk shoot or pass it back out. But neither Nash or NVE will do that because both of them tend to create by driving inside and either pass out or pass to cutters. We don't have a true half-court attack - we depend on ball movement to get a good outside shot. Johnson would be a much better point man to develop Dirk's inside game.

Dirk should demand the ball more. He should take this team, put it on his shoulders, and carry it to a championship. But does he have that mentality? Maybe Dirk is lacking that drive that the Bird/Magic/Jordan types have?

One thing for sure. Dirk is the only one who can lead us to a championship - if Nellie/Nash/NVE cannot change their styles to a style that is a proven winner in the playoffs, then Dirk needs to force the issue.

Bayliss · 12-22-2002, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Nellie/Nash/NVE cannot change their styles to a style that is a proven winner in the playoffs, then Dirk needs to force the issue.

When Donn takes over the team then that will change. Nellie said it himself after the Laker game: I did not go to Dirk enough. Nellie has a top 10 talent against the best team in basketball, and he can't get touches? It wasn't the player's fault. It was the coaches. Nellie literally forgets how good Dirk is on offense. And underutilizes him.

Last year under Don, Dirk averaged over 20 shots easily in the 13 games. Coincidence?

It's not the player. He'll shoot it when called upon. Look at the Golden State game this year one more time. But it is the coache's responsibility to call plays. And that is where Nellie fails. He would rather have Dirk average 20 points, with Nash, NVE, and Fin getting the same amount of points/shots. Ywt come playoff time, that isn't the way to win.

But hey, when we lose again this year and Nellie underultilizes the 2nd biggest offensive mismatch, when look to the future of Nellie coaching 3 more years of 2nd round loses and underutilized stars.

OutletPass · 12-22-2002, 10:39 PM

Now THIS is a good discussion. Props to all who are participating...especially LRB and MFFL.

Though we may not label the Mavs as a team in transition (which is usually reserved for so-called "rebuilding" teams), that is exactly what they are. Simply look at what has occurred in the last 2 years and the last 10 months, to be even more specific.

To get to that next step in the transition, is Dirk going to have to be the "Biggest" of the Big 3 ? In a way, I think that we (and I) are assuming that. Transitions aren't easy, that's a fact of life. And they don't happen in a span of ten games or twenty or even 40.

Just look down the road to Houston. It's not going down easy there...they have to go from a Steve/Cuttino team to a Steve/Ming team and it's not happening easily.

We may just now be starting our transition to a Dirk led offense. And let's keep in mind that it didn't come easily for MJ or Shaq or any of the others who eventually powered their teams to NBA championships.

All in all, we COULD be like other loyal fans who are having to talk about a lottery pick here right before Xmas.

LRB · 12-22-2002, 10:59 PM

1st thanks to all those sharing their opinions, and very good ones.

<< But somebody has to take the initiative here. Nellie should call Dirk's number down low - my suggestion is to call three post up plays per quarter with Dirk being the trigger man. But Nellie won't do it because that's not the type of coach he is. >>

MFFL: I will agree that Nellie should do this but is unlikely. I think that there is a small chance he will, I'm not ready to totally throw in the towl with Nellie on this point. But I can't understand why he doesn't.

That said, I agree that Dirk does need to show some initiative in this area. If nothing more than having a sit down talk with Nellie.

<< But does he have that mentality? Maybe Dirk is lacking that drive that the Bird/Magic/Jordan types have? >>

I've had a lot of discussion with friends on this topic. If you look at Larry Bird and Dirk, Dirk is a much better player is may aspects. He's taller more athletic, a better shot blocker, better one on one defender, quicker, etc. IMO Bird stands out far above Dirk in 2 areas. 1) knowlege of the game. Dirks learning incredibly fast. 2) the drive to win and will your team to victory. Dirk's gaining in this area, but he's got a long ways to go IMO.

So I agree that Dirk does need to do more to get that MJ/Magic/Bird attitude. I'm just not sure what's the best way for him to do so for this team. We might luck in and win a championship without Dirk doing so, but if we want to become the dominant team that is possible for us to become he has to develop this.

OutletPass: really appreciate your comments on the transition. I really hadn't thought of it that way. I think what you say on the subject makes a lot of sense.

dude1394 · 12-22-2002, 11:01 PM

I'll throw my two cents into the dirk-led offensive team. It certainly doesn't have to be all dirk all the time, but when a basket is needed there is one and only one player on the team that will get consistently double-teamed.. Dirk... Plus we want him to learn to pass out of it, more practice the better.

On a side note: I would like to see the big three do the reggie miller-get the opponent into the air-move into them and get the foul and 3point play oppty...

I've seen mike do it twice this year and it was pretty electric. With the way dirk/steve/mike all shoot they should be able to get that call a lot more than they do. Mike/Dirk usually shoot a fadeaway..

ÜberDirk · 12-23-2002, 01:56 AM

SJ, not going to waste my time on you.

LRB, I agree with pretty much everything you said, honestly don't think I could have said it better myself.

Bayliss, your 100% right. It is not coincidence when Jr. coaches, we do better and dirk gets more touches/shots/points. Last year at NJ was a perfect example, this year at GS too. Nellie just refuses to utilize big man correctly, that's one reason webber hated him. Nellie is a small man coach, if we lose in 2nd or 3rd round this year, we sure as hell better bring on Jr.

Also, Dirk DOES often demand the ball in the post and not get it! He'll have his arms up, and Nash totally ignores him. What can he do? Pull a wally szerbiak and steal it? I candidly blame Nash right behind Nellie, he know's damn well often times that dirk wants the ball, yet he ignores him, nash would rather launch a contested three then give it to dirk in the post.

And Dude, actually, Dirk pulls a reggie miller a lot, you know he has 13 four point play's in his career i believe.

MFFL · 12-23-2002, 07:48 AM

<< Also, Dirk DOES often demand the ball in the post and not get it! He'll have his arms up, and Nash totally ignores him. What can he do? >>

Dirk should talk to Nash about it privately. Tell him that it is the best interest of the team to get the ball down low. If that fails then have a three person sit down - Dirk, Nellie, and Nash. NVE doesn't have to be there, he can tell which way the wind is blowing afterwards.

If Dirk wants to be one of the all time greats then he'll have to do it. I cannot imagine Bird being in a situation where he allows the point guard OR the coach to freeze him out.

seelenjaeger · 12-23-2002, 11:29 AM

After following the discussion so far, I think we´ll have to take a different approach.

First of all - there´s no "wrong" way to utilize your big men if your 20-4. Claiming we would have been at this or an even better record with Donn instead of Don at the sides is at least optimistic, imho plain overboard.

As well it is kinda homerism to pull out things like "not-working" offense or stuff, since have the very best of it down on the floor - expecting more than we got is not a matter of coaching, but a matter of expectation.

So what have we got here?

We have a dominating Power Forward with excellent offensive skills and improving defensive abilities who can hit the boards and shoot from the outside.

He´s playing on a squad with 3 other All-Star-Caliber players, 2 guys who were expected to become All Stars sooner or later (SB for sure was, and even if he never got close, he´s a reknowed defender) and a bunch of role players specialized on certain skills.

He´s coached by a guy who is riding the "team" parole for the teams sake.

He´s a guy we love for not searching the limelight but success. Success for the team, not his personal.

Do we really expect this guy to complain about not getting the ball?

Raising his hands to show he can get it is one thing. Getting it all the time when he uses this sign is another - and plain stupid - thing.

This is not about feeding him all the time.

Nash is not and should not let make Dirk all the decisions, this is upon him, and he is making it very good. We are not Bird´s celtics, not a team built around Dirk, but a team built around Dirk-Nash-Finley.

We might have to change our offensive scheme come playoff time, but Dirk has to step up on offense by itself. If he´s a dominating force then, he will get the ball often enough, but lately he was slumping too often to justify a change of our offense style imho.

Let him find his way through the closer and tougher defense he´s facing atm. Let him battle out of his slump (on a very high level though) to reach the next level - it will help him far more than opening all the doors for him. And we will need Finley, Nash, Nick far too often down the stretch than it is worth ripping them now ...

If you want to see a team built around Dirk himself - go and watch the German National team. This is the NBA. This is DALLAS. Not D-allas. More than one D in Mavericks if you ask me.

dude1394 · 12-23-2002, 12:10 PM

<< And Dude, actually, Dirk pulls a reggie miller a lot, you know he has 13 four point play's in his career i believe. >>

Nah, most of those are legitimate fouls on the arm during a 3-point shot. Dirk rarely gets his guy into the air and then moves into him initiating the foul. Getting a guy to worry about jumping at him would do a lot to get him even more seperation as the defender would worry more about keeping his feet.

LRB · 12-23-2002, 02:51 PM

Dude: You make a good point with your Reggie Miller comment. The Mavs are the best FT shooting team in the league. The more we can get to the line the better. And if we can get a bucket and 1 that's even better. I to think Dirk could work to free himself up more by going into defenders more when he has them up in the air. He's damn hard to guard now. Add something else for the defender to think about and IMO it can't help but make him better. Dirk is such a great shooter I think he instintively tries to position himself where he can have the best chance to make the shot. Usually this is fading away vs jumping into the defender. However, I think he will be more effective overall learning to jump into the defender. Of cource he is constantly learning and improving his game. Hopefully this will be one of the things he adds soon.

seelenjaeger: First of all the Mavs are 22-4, not 20-4. And yes this is not just a good record, but a great record. Few teams in NBA history have won 22 out of the 1st 26 games. However this doesn't guarrantee us a championship. I will agree that you have a good argument that a coach with this record is not using his big men "wrong". But that doesn't mean that he can't use them "better". Every team, including the Mavs can and should try to improve. The secret is not to throw the "baby out with the bathwater". That's why changes should be made in small increments. So we don't have to completely change our offensive philosophy and go through Dirk "all the time". What we can do is go through Dirk more often than we have. Add touches and shots for him slowly and gradually. The same goes for posting Dirk in the low post. We just do it more, not do it all or even most of the time.

Also the Mavs have the best offense in the league. But we do not have the best half court offense. I don't think we need to have the best half court offense, but I do think we can and should improve it. I think Dirk can play a big part in making the team better in the half court. But to really make the team better it needs to be a focus of the team. Good low post offense is a total team effort. It involves the player posting getting good position in a timely manner. The passer needs to get in position with a good passing angle and create space from his defender to make the pass. The other players need to space the court properly. Poor spacing can doom the best post player. Also picks and screens can play a big part in allowing the post player to get position and/or the passer to get a lane to pass. So this isn't just about Dirk, its about the whole team. To expect Dirk to show that he is dominat in the low post without his teams cooperation is not realistic IMO.

<< We might have to change our offensive scheme come playoff time >>

Changing offensive schema to something that we haven't used very much in real game situations is an incredibly hard thing to do. Personally, I don't think that Dirk can be near as effective as he needs to be in low post in both scoring and especially passing without a good many more reps. I would hate to possibly concede this year's playoff run to another learning experience when we have the chance now to buy a little insurance against that.

<< Do we really expect this guy to complain about not getting the ball? >>

Personally, I do not expect him to complain. I do think that MFFL gave a very good suggestion of Dirk, Nellie, and Nash having a sitdown conversation about this. Who knows maybe they have. This doesn't have to be complaing. Just state, hey here is an idea that I have about how we can be better and here's the reasons why I think so. Ideally Nellie would be calling this meeting and saying that, but if he doesn't, someone needs to IMO. Nellie has said that he needs to get Dirk the ball more. Unfortunately Dirk got hurt right after that and isn't back to full health yet. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

<< Nash is not and should not let make Dirk all the decisions, this is upon him, and he is making it very good. We are not Bird´s celtics, not a team built around Dirk, but a team built around Dirk-Nash-Finley. >>

This is true. And Dirk is the best player of the 3, but we need each of them and other players to play at their best or very near it for this team to win it all. We want to get the best use out of each player. I just happen to think that Dirk has the biggest potential to make this team better by making others around him better. He needs the ball more to maximize this potential. That doesn't mean that the other players are doing a bad job. I hold nothing agains Fin, Steve, or any of the team. I'm really not one to blame others, at least not quickly. IMO most problems are just flaws in the processes being used that can be improved. IF, and that's a big if, the process was put in place to give the ball to Dirk more and some player refused to go along so that he could have the ball more instead of Dirk, then I would be inclined to blame the offending player. I just don't feel that has happened hear. When I speak of improvements, it's not that something is wrong, but that something could be better.

MFFL: great suggestion about meeting with Nellie, Nash, and Dirk.

seelenjaeger · 12-23-2002, 03:40 PM

lol ... 20-4 / 22-4 who cares [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

that halfcourt offense part in your post lrb is the very reason why I insist on not posting Dirk too often - because we´re simply not a halfcourt offense team. we still have to try to spread the offense all the game imho, and posting dirk up might hurt us more than it helps ...

LRB · 12-23-2002, 04:02 PM

<< lol ... 20-4 / 22-4 who cares [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

that halfcourt offense part in your post lrb is the very reason why I insist on not posting Dirk too often - because we´re simply not a halfcourt offense team. we still have to try to spread the offense all the game imho, and posting dirk up might hurt us more than it helps ... >>

And the Mavs 23-4 hopefully later tonight. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

I'm not not saying slow down the offense and run half court sets for Dirk instead. I'm saying when are not able to get a good shot in transition and are forced to the half court game, then lets post Dirk more. Ideally we would run the transition offense, where nobody does it better, for every possesion. We don't always get that opportunity. I really want to see us make the most of the opportunities for transition that we have. But when those opportunities aren't there, or we need to run clock for some reason, IMO that's when we need to give Dirk more touches and shots in the low post. Again, I'm adovcating small and incremental changes. That way we can see how it is affecting the team before betting the farm on this strategy.

Of cource if it proves to be more efficient than the transition game, then and only then, should we consider giving up transition opportunities to post Dirk. Right now it is a theory, and IMO a very good theory but a theory nonetheless. Like any theory it needs to be proven. That's why we do it slow, gradual, and apply to those possesions which we need the most improvement on so that we take as little as possible from what we now do best.

dude1394 · 12-23-2002, 04:43 PM

Well we will find out won't we. Last year in the sacremento series nellie basically laid a lot of blame on dirks performance on dirk himself. Saying that he didn't know how to handle the double teams and that he had to learn to pass out of them, that that would be his next step. Again I don't think it is all dirk all the time, but if he says that AGAIN this year (assuming that we don't get past the second) then I will be big time PO'd at Nellie, NOT Dirk.

Dirk will not get any better passing out of double-teams unless he is forced to do it during the regular season. If nellie has to take a few more losses to do that then he has to do it. Just like if he has to accept a few more losses to keep the guys fresh for the play-offs. As much as I cannot stand Phil Jackzen, he does have a very long-term view of the season which makes sense sometimes.

ÜberDirk · 12-23-2002, 06:31 PM

LRB, I love the way you word yourself on the matter. PM me or something, I think we ought to e-mail Mark Cuban some of the stuff you've said. He probably won't read it, but it's worth a shot.

MFFL · 12-23-2002, 07:07 PM

<< Also the Mavs have the best offense in the league. But we do not have the best half court offense. >>

Outstanding summation - the Mavs simply have to get better at the half court sets to advance further in the playoffs.

<< I'm saying when are not able to get a good shot in transition and are forced to the half court game, then lets post Dirk more. Ideally we would run the transition offense, where nobody does it better, for every possesion. We don't always get that opportunity. I really want to see us make the most of the opportunities for transition that we have. But when those opportunities aren't there, or we need to run clock for some reason, IMO that's when we need to give Dirk more touches and shots in the low post. Again, I'm adovcating small and incremental changes. That way we can see how it is affecting the team before betting the farm on this strategy.

Of cource if it proves to be more efficient than the transition game, then and only then, should we consider giving up transition opportunities to post Dirk. Right now it is a theory, and IMO a very good theory but a theory nonetheless. Like any theory it needs to be proven. That's why we do it slow, gradual, and apply to those possesions which we need the most improvement on so that we take as little as possible from what we now do best. >>

A great strategy and one that I think the Mavs should implement. But will Nellie do it? I think not. That's why it might come down to Dirk shouldering the load.

MFFL · 12-26-2002, 11:01 PM

<< My thoughts.

The refs were a joke, not an excuse, a fact.
>>

ÜberDirk NOT complaining about the refs - LOL

ÜberDirk · 12-26-2002, 11:02 PM

that's not complaining, it was ONE statement on a agreed a poun fact and its not complaining. I WAS POINTING IT OUT!

MFFL · 12-26-2002, 11:05 PM

It was your first post in the thread. You didn't post during the game but you complained about the refs afterwards.

ÜberDirk · 12-26-2002, 11:20 PM

pointed out, not complained.