Ginobili

[Hitman]

Ok......

So if every player in the NBA were put up in the draft...


How many would take Finley before Manu?

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: Max Power

I'm not a big fan of the per 48 minutes stat and I didn't think you were either. I seem to remember that you shoot it down every time it is brought up in reference to Bradley.

And don't get so defensive, oh great Swami. I was just pointing out that Manu did not score like you predicted he would and neither did Finley. So the basis of your man-love for Manu is flawed.

Manu is better than Finley, and any GM that would take Fin over Manu would be fired on the spot.

A couple of points per game means absolutely nothing in the NBA.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Hitman
Ok......

So if every player in the NBA were put up in the draft...


How many would take Finley before Manu?

I think the question has been answered. YOU would take Manu. Most other posters on the board would take Finley. As far as NBA talent evaluators it would be sheer speculation because they don't post here.

Since your opinion is far more advanced than ours if (according to you) then I guess the question is answered AGAIN. Of course I think that your recent double error in prediction puts your talent evaluation in doubt...

[FilthyFinMavs]

Another year has past. While Fin is now a year older he's still a better player than "The Great Ginobilli".

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Hitman
Manu is better than Finley, and any GM that would take Fin over Manu would be fired on the spot.

In YOUR opinion. I'm sure there are quite a few GM's who would prefer Finley's leadership AND scoring over Manu's skill set IMO.

A couple of points per game means absolutely nothing in the NBA.

Almost SIX points a game is NOT a couple.

[MavsFanFinley]

Ok......

So if every player in the NBA were put up in the draft...

How many would take Finley before Manu?

That's not a fair question and I'm sure you're aware of that. Use your head when making an argument please.

That's like asking GM's to choose between a 40 year old Malone or a 27 year old Martin. Or to decide if they want a 31 year old Ray Allen or a 20 year old Lebron James.

How about asking GM's if they would rather have a 2nd year Finley or a 2nd year Ginobli. I think the answer is obvious.

[Hitman]

How about asking:

If your goal is to win the NBA championship NEXT Year....who do you want?

The answer should be obvious.

[fin4life]

Originally posted by: Hitman
How about asking:

If your goal is to win the NBA championship NEXT Year....who do you want?

The answer should be obvious.

I hope that you mean that it is obviously finley... because it is.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: fin4life

I hope that you mean that it is obviously finley... because it is.

Right...of course "fin4life"

[Fidel]

LOL there´s really no question who´s the better player now. It´s Ginobili and it´s not even close. Should be easy to figure out for anyone who´s not only judging players by stats. Manu`s got better passing, ballhandling, rebounding and much better D going for him. Fin might be the better scorer but even that is debatable IMO, since the Spurs never really asked Manu to score alot but if he needs to he can score. Could be seen today against Serbia. Team USA would be happy to have a player like him on the roster.

[DubOverdose]

So far Finley>Ginobli....he still has to prove more to be at the level of Fin

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Hitman

Right...of course "fin4life"

So you discount someone's opinion because of their screen name? How very interesting...

I suppose we should discount YOUR opinion because of YOUR obvious man-crush for Manu. It cuts both ways don't you know.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: Max Power

So you discount someone's opinion because of their screen name? How very interesting...

I suppose we should discount YOUR opinion because of YOUR obvious man-crush for Manu. It cuts both ways don't you know.

I have a "man-crush" for Manu? Why is that? For stating what any rational thinking basketball fan would think, that he is better than Michael Finley?

Puh-leeeze.

[LRB]

This is laughable. Fin is a 2 time NBA all-star. Ginobili hasn't enven been a start in the NBA for a full season. While certainly there are some aspect of Manu's game that are superior to Fin's, there are also a lot of weaknesses that are inferior to Fin's.

No as to who most GM's would choose if they had the choice. Most would choose Ginobili IMO. But not because Manu is more talented, but because he's a hell of a lot younger than Fin. Fin is great if you're ready to push for an NBA championship in the next couple of years, but most NBA teams quite frankly aren't there. In that case you would go with a less talented but considerably younger player.

I like Manu. I think that he's got lots of talent and would definitely love to have him as a Mav. However, to say that he's better than Fin at this point in their respective careers is a bit premature IMO.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Hitman
I have a "man-crush" for Manu? Why is that?

I don't know WHY you have a man-crush for Manu but it is pretty obvious.

For stating what any rational thinking basketball fan would think, that he is better than Michael Finley?

Puh-leeeze.

I'm a rational basketball fan and I disagree with you. In fact you have nothing but YOUR opinion that Manu is better. Finley has the stats - Manu isn't even a starter.

[Jamisonite]

i take manu

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: Fidel
LOL there´s really no question who´s the better player now. It´s Ginobili and it´s not even close. Should be easy to figure out for anyone who´s not only judging players by stats. Manu`s got better passing, ballhandling, rebounding and much better D going for him. Fin might be the better scorer but even that is debatable IMO, since the Spurs never really asked Manu to score alot but if he needs to he can score. Could be seen today against Serbia. Team USA would be happy to have a player like him on the roster.

Right Fidel.

People like Max can't seperate stats from reality, however.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Hitman

Right Fidel.

People like Max can't seperate stats from reality, however.

Just because there are a few people who prefer Manu doesn't mean that Manu is better. It is strictly THEIR opinion. Since opinions vary so widely based on the life-experiences of the person making the judgement then you have to have something to make an analysis with. And that is stats.

And it is pretty pathetic for a poster to try to first justify an opinion USING stats (Hitman tried to use per 48 minute stat to show that Manu is better) and then dismisses stats later. Would the Swami please decide whether stats are important or not. It is confusing when you take both sides of an argument.

BTW, Fidel is an excellent poster. I respect his opinion a lot. That doesn't mean I agree with it - just like I didn't agree with his position that Jordan would trade himself in his final season with Washington. I still have that $5 (euro).

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: Max Power

Just because there are a few people who prefer Manu doesn't mean that Manu is better. It is strictly THEIR opinion. Since opinions vary so widely based on the life-experiences of the person making the judgement then you have to have something to make an analysis with. And that is stats.

And it is pretty pathetic for a poster to try to first justify an opinion USING stats (Hitman tried to use per 48 minute stat to show that Manu is better) and then dismisses stats later. Would the Swami please decide whether stats are important or not. It is confusing when you take both sides of an argument.

BTW, Fidel is an excellent poster. I respect his opinion a lot. That doesn't mean I agree with it - just like I didn't agree with his position that Jordan would trade himself in his final season with Washington. I still have that $5 (euro).

Right, we are posting on an internet message board...what else do we have but our OPINIONS? I have nothing but my opinion and you, or course, have nothing but yours.

What would you like me to give you, a ham sandwich?

Oh...and stats are important. They tell alot. And Finley is superior to Manu in one stat: scoring.

And why?

Because he takes more shots.

Manu is a better passer, a MUCH better defender, a better rebounder and makes the defense work a hell of a lot harder than Finley does. He is a MUCH better point per shot scorer than Finley, who is a volume shooter.

Of course....that is just my opinion.

Except the stuff about the stats....of course.

[grndmstr_c]

Manu`s got better passing, ballhandling, rebounding and much better D going for him.

Yes, he's a better ball handler, rebounder and defender. He is not, however, a better passer. He just breaks down the defense more often off of dribble penetration, leading to his better assist totals (meanwhile, the quality of his passing leads to higher TO's and a worse A/TO ratio). In addition to not being a worse passer, Fin is a considerably better shooter than Manu, and is, in general, a much more mature player, and that part shouldn't be overlooked. Honestly, at this point I tend to think that Manu and Fin are pretty much dead even as SG's at this point in their respective careers. If we're talking about their careers as a whole, however, the nod goes to Fin, and it's not even close. Furthermore, I don't think Manu will ever be the player that Fin has been, since he's already 27 and doesn't figure to improve much from this point.

[kg_veteran]

I'm walking into this debate late, but IMO Finley's the better player.

[Finley4ever]

I have a "man-crush" for Manu? Why is that? For stating what any rational thinking basketball fan would think, that he is better than Michael Finley?

Obviously not all rational-thinking fans think he Manu is better than Finley unless that is the only qualification of "rational thinking fan". Some rankings:
Inisde Hoops February 25

Hoopsworld September 25, 2003

CBS Sportsline September 17, 2003

I couldn't find any more recent subjective shooting guard rankings, but Finley is ahead of Ginobili in all of these.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Hitman
Oh...and stats are important. They tell alot. And Finley is superior to Manu in one stat: scoring.

And why?

Because he takes more shots.

Manu is a better passer, a MUCH better defender, a better rebounder and makes the defense work a hell of a lot harder than Finley does. He is a MUCH better point per shot scorer than Finley, who is a volume shooter.

Of course....that is just my opinion.

Except the stuff about the stats....of course.

A volume scorer? Good lord - Finley outshot Manu on FG% AND 3P%. Finley was even on rebounds (unless you use the lame per 48 minute stat. And if you use THAT then you have to ask why Manu was off the floor so much if he is SUCH a great player). Yes Manu got more steals per game but Finley had more blocks per game (the steals might have something to do with the fact that Manu can take more chances on defense with Duncan behind him). Manu also had almost double the turnovers (and we gripe about Finley's handles). Finley even shoots a higher free throw percentage. And Finley wins in intangibles.

The stats do not support your case.

[Finley4ever]

MUCH better points per shot?
Manu- 1.25
Finley- 1.16

So if they both shot 20 times, Ginobili would outscore Finley by 1.8 points. Not that much IMO

[Hitman]

Max, you are proving my point about "stats".

Yes, they matter. Yes, they are important.

But the Manu vs. Finley debate can't be boiled down to "stats".

I bumped this thread because Manu single-handedly beat Serbia today...he was unbelievable. He could wind up being the MVP of the Olympics.

The things that Manu does on the basketball court are unique, and in "MY OPINION" he is a superior talent to Finley.

I don't believe that I could change your mind, or anyone's mind on a Dallas Mavericks message board.

I could argue with you that Glenn Robinson is better than Finley, and I could back up that argument with stats that would show you that in 02/03, when he was healthy, the "Big Dog" was a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Mr. Finley.

That doesn't make it so. Because in MY OPINION, Finley is better.

And all I have is my opinion.

Because I just ate the ham sandwich.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Finley4ever
MUCH better points per shot?
Manu- 1.25
Finley- 1.16

So if they both shot 20 times, Ginobili would outscore Finley by 1.8 points. Not that much IMO

The great Swami said (and I quote)

A couple of points per game means absolutely nothing in the NBA.

[DubOverdose]

I can't believe this is actually a debate. Only thing Ginobli has on Finley is youth!

[MavsFanFinley]

Oh...and stats are important. They tell alot. And Finley is superior to Manu in one stat: scoring.

And why?

Because he takes more shots.

Looks like Finley is superior in more than the scoring department.

Finley, 03-04 season:
38.6min, 44.3%, 40.5%, 85%, 18.6pts, 4.5rbs, 2.9as, 1.17stls, 1.15to's, .54blks, 1.6pf's

Finley, career:
39.6min, 45.1%, 36.5%, 80.6%, 19.3pts, 5.2rbs, 3.8as, 1.2stls, 1.97to's, .37blks, 1.9pf's

Ginobli, 03-04 season:
29.4min, 41.8%, 35.9%, 80.2%, 12.8pts, 4.5rbs, 3.8as, 1.77stls, 2.09to's, .21blks, 2.4pf's

Ginobli, career:
25.3min, 42.5%, 35.4%, 77.8%, 10.4pts, 3.5rbs, 2.9as, 1.59stls, 1.79to's, .23blks, 2.4pf's

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: Hitman

The things that Manu does on the basketball court are unique, and in "MY OPINION" he is a superior talent to Finley.

I don't believe that I could change your mind, or anyone's mind on a Dallas Mavericks message board.

I could argue with you that Glenn Robinson is better than Finley, and I could back up that argument with stats that would show you that in 02/03, when he was healthy, the "Big Dog" was a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Mr. Finley.
.

MFF...please refer to this post.

[Hitman]

Who is better?

Robinson in 02/03
20.8 points, 6.6 rebounds, 3.0 assists

Finley in 02/03
19 points, 5.9 rebounds, 3.0 assists

Finley in 03/04
18.6 points, 4.5 rebounds, 2.9 assists

It looks like Robinson is better, right????

I mean, the Robinson of 02/03 is better than Finley in every statististial category.

Does that mean that he is better?

or

That anyone in the know would take him over Finley?

No way.

[Nash13]

Hitman, it is really unfair to compare Ginobli to Finley at this point in his career. If you're so confident about GMs pick manu, answer me this. Who would GMs rather take, a 27 yr old Ginobli or a 27 yr old Finley?

And to answer your question, the majority of the title contenders, probably even San Antonio, would take Finley.

[MavsFanFinley]

I remember quite a few people here were in favor of trading Finley for Robinson this past draft night.

[Hitman]

Anyone that would trade Finley for Glenn Robinson is, how do I put this nicely....

stupid.

But Finley vs. Big Dog reveals the fact that stats only tell part of the story.

[MavsFanFinley]

And why would you compare Finley to Robinson? I thought one was a true 3 while the other was a 2 having to play out of position?

I know you've bitched about Finley for the last 2-3 years and how he was a ball and chain around this teams neck. What makes you think Ginobli is going to be far more superior to Finley when he's at the same age Finley was when many said he'd decline at a fast rate?

[Mongoose]

There are a couple of things to consider when talking about comparing two caliber players, like Finley and Manu.

First of all, Manu's defensive "prowess" is over-exaggerated. Granted he plays on one of the better defensive teams in the NBA, but he isn't even the best perimeter defender on his own team, that title belongs to Bruce Bowen, and also is protected in the middle by two 7 footers, which allows him to gamble defensively. This makes him look like a much better defender than he actually is cause he's guarding a weak player and can play the passing lanes. Finley on the other hand is often asked to guard the other teams best player without shotblocking help inside, unless you count the occasional appearance of Bradley. This makes him appear a worse defender, when in reality they are not to dissimilar in that facet of their game.

With respect to their offensive abilities, it is clear that Finley as of now has a higher field goal percentage and scoring average which would lead one to believe he is the superior offensive player. Not only that, but Manu has Tim Duncan inside, demanding a double team and freeing up all of the Spurs players and providing open shots a plenty. And when one argues that Manu is able to create more offense for himself, one should consider that it is not Finley's role on the team to make his own offense, his job is to make shots, and he does that effectively.

Onto the intangibles, Finley clearly provides those for the Mavericks, and though Ginobili adds energy to the Spurs, he doesn't add that leadership needed to be a star in the NBA. Also, when comparing the olympics to the NBA, one has to understand that Argentina is running their offense through Ginobili, something that will never happen for him in the NBA. Ginobili, to a large respect is a rhythm player, who needs the ball in his hands to be really consistent offensively. And I think everyone would agree that Manu can't have a NBA offense run through him.

Oh yeah, and the per 48 mins stats mean nothing. Someone who plays 40 minutes a game has to pace themselves, while someone playing 25-30 can play pretty much hard throughout. Manu is the energy spark, right, comes off the bench when everyone is tired; doesn't that also give him a huge advantage???

Thats all for right now.

[mcsluggo]

.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by: Max Power

Just because there are a few people who prefer Manu doesn't mean that Manu is better. It is strictly THEIR opinion. Since opinions vary so widely based on the life-experiences of the person making the judgement then you have to have something to make an analysis with. And that is stats.

And it is pretty pathetic for a poster to try to first justify an opinion USING stats (Hitman tried to use per 48 minute stat to show that Manu is better) and then dismisses stats later. Would the Swami please decide whether stats are important or not. It is confusing when you take both sides of an argument.

BTW, Fidel is an excellent poster. I respect his opinion a lot. That doesn't mean I agree with it - just like I didn't agree with his position that Jordan would trade himself in his final season with Washington. I still have that $5 (euro).

Thanks Max. Same here, I respect your opinion too. To be honest I think this whole debate is a bit pointless cause Manu and Fin are very different types of players. Fin is a pretty good shooter, he can certainly score.

Manu is more of a complete player. Like grandmaster said he´s a good penetrator and slasher. That gives him alot of options on the offensive end to create for himself and for others, while Fin often seems to be a little bit reduced to outside shooting because he`s lacking the handles and agressiveness. When it comes to rebounding I think Fin can compete with Manu if he really dedicates himself to it. On the defensive end Manu is clearly better, I think that´s really not debatable. Overall I prefer Manu because he makes things happen on both ends of the floor. He can create on offense which is not a strong point of Fin, and he can be a force on D, plus he´s a very energetic player in general and he´s very very competitive. Fin has got the better shooting going for him but I really don´t see anything else.

I must admit though that I´m biased here (just like I think alot of you are biased about Fin, which is quite normal for Mavs fans). I liked Manu before he even entered the NBA and I was one of the posters here who told everyone about him. I just like the way he plays and how all aspects of the game seem to come to him quite easy. He´s a player, I can´t explain it any better but it´s like Dirk shooting a fadeaway or Peja shooting a three or Duncan hitting a bank shot. Manu has that natural basketball player thing going, that bank shot he hit against serbia yesterday to win the game was just insane. Obviously that´s a very subjective point of view so if someone disagrees with it that´s fine. But I´d take Manu over Fin any day of the week.

BTW: I didn`know we had a bet on that Jordan thing. I remember that I thought he might trade himself but I don´t remember betting with you.

[Max Power]

A couple of quick comments:

Turkoglu tripled his steals per game when he went from Sacremento to San Antonio. Sometimes the system makes the player look better.

Finley had half as many turnovers (83 to 161) despite playing significantly more minutes (2778 to 2260). So I wouldn't say that Manu has great handles. In fact he has one of the worst TO per 48 minutes stats in the game.

[MavKikiNYC]

Finley had half as many turnovers (83 to 161) despite playing significantly more minutes (2778 to 2260). So I wouldn't say that Manu has great handles. In fact he has one of the worst TO per 48 minutes stats in the game.

That's actually an interesting stat, but I don't think it's necessarily the best way to compare Fin's and Manu's respective 'handles'.

You can watch and see that Manu can consistently take his man off the dribble and finish the shot, whereas when Fin does it, it's notable for its novelty--and that difference in ability is not necessarily captured or reflected in a stat.

Manu does occasionally play bordering out-of-control, but to my eye he is a better creator and finisher than Fin at this point in their careers.

[poohrichardson]

I like Finley better.. but if it came down to who I would want on my team right now to make a championship run, I'd take Ginobili. Finley is a great scorer and one of my favorite players in the league, but I'd take Ginobili over him. Manu hasn't even tipped the iceberg of his potential and already is a great all-around contributer, whether or not it is reflected in the statistics (which are COMPLETELY ridiculous to use as means of an argument when discussing roleplayers). Ginobili was a big piece of San Antonio's puzzle this year and they were obviously only a couple of good breaks away from repeating as champions. (The same argument could be made for Finley's Mavs of last year, but it's pretty obvious to me that the 03-04 Spurs were a far better team than the 03-04 Mavs.) Ginobili is a hustle player who can score when he's asked to and can really control a ballgame without doing a lot of handling or scoring. I think he's going to be a top 10 player at some point in his career.