Stick a fork in it, the Suns are done - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

chumdawg · 06-02-2005, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bo319
Chum

I respect most of your posts in the forum and I respect your knowledge of the sport...but to expect Steve Nash to repeat this season is expecting a whole lot. Add that to the fact that untill JJohnson went down they had missed a combined 13 games to injury this season...expecting that to repeat is also very very unlikely. Teams will learn how to play Amare and he will become more of a jump shooter than slam dunker which while he will still score will make him less efficient. One thing to think about is that Phoenix gave away their lottery pick last season to Chicago...that pick was used on Luol Deng...he would've helped them this season and beyond but they didn't want to add the payroll.

Steve Nash doesn't have to repeat this season for the Suns to remain among the top two or three teams in the conference. But out of curiosity, why do you expect that he won't repeat this season? Is there some kind of precedent for MVP's to drop off considerably in their level of play after they win the award?

I'm not so sure that teams will "learn how to play Amare." There are a few guys who teams have never learned how to play, and Amare may be one of them. Don't forget how young he is! It's easy to look at the game he displayed this postseason and think that he's already at the top of his game, but I can't imagine how that would be the case. What is he? 22? He could scary good a lot quicker than he gets worse. (Oh, and by the way, he had a pretty little jump shot going last night. God help the defenders if he does develop that weapon.)

I didn't realize that about the lottery pick. Interesting. I'll have to read up on that. They just dumped it because they didn't want to pay a rookie contract? That seems unusual.

On the injury thing...I don't know. It seems a little like a weird argument to me. Yeah, they had a great year, but they actually got to use all their guys all year. I just don't know. You might be able to make a case that a good, long injury would have helped the Suns more than it hurt them. Maybe if some of the guys on their bench had played more in the regular season they would have been useful come playoff time. I don't know. Everybody was pretty healthy in the postseason, with the biggest exception being the games Joe Johnson missed.

kg_veteran · 06-02-2005, 02:53 PM

Chum, the Suns traded the No. 7 pick to Chicago to clear enough cap room to sign Quentin Richardson. They could have taken either Deng or Iguodala at that spot. It looks like maybe they should have taken that route, but naturally that's hindsight.

As I see it, the Suns are in a bit of a quandary.

If they keep Stoudemire at center, they're going to remain a poor defensive team that's unable to protect the paint or slow down perimeter penetration. Stoudemire, Richardson, and Nash are all really bad defenders, and Marion can't stop a PF with a consistent low post game.

If, on the other hand, the Suns look to add a center to move Stoudemire and Marion back to their natural positions, they might get better defensively depending upon who the center is, but their offensive style will likely suffer as a result. The reason that Stoudemire is able to dominate in the paint offensively is that teams have to play him man-to-man. If they double right now, the other 4 Suns make the opposition pay. If you put a defensive specialist center out there (I don't think anyone can reasonably expect the Suns to add a center that is even average defensively AND offensively for the MLE), the opposition will simply double Stoudemire and take him out of the game. Nash certainly helps Stoudemire get easy hoops, but the Suns scheme of having 5 scorers that makes it impossible to double really helps Stoudemire a lot. Take that away, and IMO he's a lot closer to the 16 ppg scorer he was in year 2 than the 26 ppg scorer he is in year 3.

dalmations202 · 06-02-2005, 03:06 PM

The biggest reason I see the Suns falling off, is because this year, no one developed their team to defend against them. Everyone was built to play SA, Minn, and LA with Shaq. Phoenix wasn't a threat, so personnel were not picked up based upon their play. Now, this next year, GM's will be trying to find personnel answers for them, coaches will be trying to develop defenses for them, and players will be gearing up for them.

Man, they really reminded me of the Mavericks of '03. Run - n - gun, fill it up, play no D. The only difference I saw was Amare being and inside force, and going off for 35 a night, verses Dirk draining threes and going off for 30+. Neither got it done on the defensive end though.

I really think they have some issues though, if they want to get to the top.

kg_veteran · 06-02-2005, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dalmations202
The biggest reason I see the Suns falling off, is because this year, no one developed their team to defend against them. Everyone was built to play SA, Minn, and LA with Shaq. Phoenix wasn't a threat, so personnel were not picked up based upon their play. Now, this next year, GM's will be trying to find personnel answers for them, coaches will be trying to develop defenses for them, and players will be gearing up for them.

Man, they really reminded me of the Mavericks of '03. Run - n - gun, fill it up, play no D. The only difference I saw was Amare being and inside force, and going off for 35 a night, verses Dirk draining threes and going off for 30+. Neither got it done on the defensive end though.

I really think they have some issues though, if they want to get to the top.

Good points.

chumdawg · 06-02-2005, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Chum, the Suns traded the No. 7 pick to Chicago to clear enough cap room to sign Quentin Richardson. They could have taken either Deng or Iguodala at that spot. It looks like maybe they should have taken that route, but naturally that's hindsight.

Not sure I understand, KG. The draft was well before the free agency period, was it not?

Misfit Mav · 06-02-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Chum, the Suns traded the No. 7 pick to Chicago to clear enough cap room to sign Quentin Richardson. They could have taken either Deng or Iguodala at that spot. It looks like maybe they should have taken that route, but naturally that's hindsight.

As I see it, the Suns are in a bit of a quandary.

If they keep Stoudemire at center, they're going to remain a poor defensive team that's unable to protect the paint or slow down perimeter penetration. Stoudemire, Richardson, and Nash are all really bad defenders, and Marion can't stop a PF with a consistent low post game.

If, on the other hand, the Suns look to add a center to move Stoudemire and Marion back to their natural positions, they might get better defensively depending upon who the center is, but their offensive style will likely suffer as a result. The reason that Stoudemire is able to dominate in the paint offensively is that teams have to play him man-to-man. If they double right now, the other 4 Suns make the opposition pay. If you put a defensive specialist center out there (I don't think anyone can reasonably expect the Suns to add a center that is even average defensively AND offensively for the MLE), the opposition will simply double Stoudemire and take him out of the game. Nash certainly helps Stoudemire get easy hoops, but the Suns scheme of having 5 scorers that makes it impossible to double really helps Stoudemire a lot. Take that away, and IMO he's a lot closer to the 16 ppg scorer he was in year 2 than the 26 ppg scorer he is in year 3.

Great post... the dilemna of going small and not defending or going big and hampering the offense was exactly the problem of the old Mavericks. Although I hate to have lost Nash, I'm glad we don't have to face that frustrating quandary any more.

Plus, the Suns have talked about continuing to search for a "true 5," and don't have much they can use to acquire one. That makes me think they will be going on the same goose-chase that we were on for the last several seasons. Damp has been a big disapointment in a lot of ways, but I would guess that the Suns would love to have him.

kg_veteran · 06-02-2005, 04:42 PM

Chum - Draft was on June 24; free agency period began July 1. I guess, to be honest, I should have said the Suns were trying to clear as much room as possible under the cap to be able to sign Nash and then hopefully another player. By trading the No. 7 pick away, they added $2.2m in cap room.

chumdawg · 06-02-2005, 04:46 PM

Okay, gotcha. That does seem like a curious move. Wonder where they would have been if the Clips matched on Richardson...

Misfit Mav · 06-02-2005, 04:58 PM

If I remember correctly, the word in the press was that they were trying to free up as much cap room as possible to make Kobe an offer. If that was true, the "consolation prize" probably turned out to be better for them, although Kobe and Amare would be pretty scary as well. I'm not sure about the timing, but if they didn't get Q, they might have made a run at Damp.

kg_veteran · 06-02-2005, 04:58 PM

They would have spent the money on somebody else, I suppose. Still, at the time the Suns traded their No. 7 pick, they didn't know exactly what the salary cap number was going to be. Some estimates were as low as $42-43m, while others were as high as $45m (from what I can recall). The Suns were making absolutely sure that they had enough money to woo Nash away. That part of it definitely worked, and it was an added bonus when they were able to nab Richardson. Or at least so they thought at the time.

kg_veteran · 06-02-2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Misfit Mav
Great post... the dilemna of going small and not defending or going big and hampering the offense was exactly the problem of the old Mavericks. Although I hate to have lost Nash, I'm glad we don't have to face that frustrating quandary any more.

Right. The long-term goal is that the Mavs will match up well with any team they face, both offensively and defensively. They need improved play from several areas to get there, but all of the pieces except for a backup center they'll use are in place. And if one of the young projects can pan out, they might have their backup center.

Quote:

Plus, the Suns have talked about continuing to search for a "true 5," and don't have much they can use to acquire one. That makes me think they will be going on the same goose-chase that we were on for the last several seasons. Damp has been a big disapointment in a lot of ways, but I would guess that the Suns would love to have him.

No question. The Suns would love to have Dampier. Then they'd at least have a defensive presence and rebounder in the middle to take pressure off Stoudemire guarding the rim, and they could get Richardson out of the starting lineup, which would help the perimeter defense.

dirno2000 · 06-02-2005, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Teams will learn how to play Amare and he will become more of a jump shooter than slam dunker which while he will still score will make him less efficient.

The following is a clip from a PXH newspaper:
The Suns, in an apparent compromise to Stoudemire's reluctance to play center again next season in D'Antoni's small-ball lineup, sent him home for the summer as the team's designated go-to player next season.

He earned the promotion with a stunning postseason that included averaging 37.0 points against Tim Duncan and the Spurs and 29.9 points overall in the playoffs.

The redefined role will have him pick-and-roll more often with Nash on the perimeter and free him to shoot outside, drive inside or pass.

Did someone say Magic Johnson?

"It's playing the position I played this year, center, but with a different twist - more of a perimeter, inside-outside game," said Stoudemire. "I'll do a lot more."

He added, "I've always dreamed of being in that position, the go-to guy. With this team, once I polish my game up a little more, I'll be able to take us to the promised land."

Misfit Mav · 06-03-2005, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dirno2000

Quote:

Teams will learn how to play Amare and he will become more of a jump shooter than slam dunker which while he will still score will make him less efficient.

The following is a clip from a PXH newspaper:
The Suns, in an apparent compromise to Stoudemire's reluctance to play center again next season in D'Antoni's small-ball lineup, sent him home for the summer as the team's designated go-to player next season.

He earned the promotion with a stunning postseason that included averaging 37.0 points against Tim Duncan and the Spurs and 29.9 points overall in the playoffs.

The redefined role will have him pick-and-roll more often with Nash on the perimeter and free him to shoot outside, drive inside or pass.

Did someone say Magic Johnson?

"It's playing the position I played this year, center, but with a different twist - more of a perimeter, inside-outside game," said Stoudemire. "I'll do a lot more."

He added, "I've always dreamed of being in that position, the go-to guy. With this team, once I polish my game up a little more, I'll be able to take us to the promised land."

Wow, this is an odd developement. Does this mean they want to make him into a point forward, and let him handle the ball instead of Steve? Why does that sound familiar? Did they really just compare him to Magic Johnson?

Also, the promised land quote is funny. Stoudemire's head may be the only thing bigger than his talent.

MavKikiNYC · 06-03-2005, 02:37 PM

Why am I not more impressed with Stoudemire? I'm willing to be, but I'm not.

His game looks pretty one-dimensional to me. He reminds me alternately of a young Bob McAdoo (unleashed to roam and go for blocks on defense, with strict instrucitons not to foul; replace jumpers with dunks), or for a more contemporary reference, an Antonio McDyess (raw, high-flying, more talent than understanding).

He's right to be concerned about playing out of position at center. Even if 90% of the players he faces are less physically talented than he is, it's having to go up against players 40-50 pounds bigger than he is night-after-night-after-night that will increase his chance of injury. And then he really could become another Antonio McDyess, playing out a contract as a role player on somebody's bench.

And the only thing Magic about his game will be if someone is able to make his delusions of grandeur *poof* disappear.

GP · 06-03-2005, 03:23 PM

Amare's ego is so big that it might just be a separate entity all together. Only player still playing in Magic's league might be LeBron James. He's definitely the only one in my opinion. Amare may help take the Suns to the promised land; however, he still needs to learn how to dribble the damned ball and pass the damned ball. If Phoenix takes the ball out of Nash's hand it will be a huge mistake.

As for this thing about the Suns wanting Dampier you guys are just fooling yourselves. The Mavs were bidding against themselves when they did that sign and trade. Everyone in the League has Cuban down as their favorite Mark. Dampier is a career backup who happened to have 1 decent contract year season when the actual starter was injured all year. I will not be surprised if Dampiers career goes down the TAW path in the near future. Like years 3 - 5 of that albatross of a contract. The Suns are going to want a center that can run up and down the floor as they are a team that relies on pushing the tempo. Dampier isn't that guy. He runs like an 80 year who just took some Celebrex or something.

MavKikiNYC · 06-03-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Dampier isn't that guy. He runs like an 80 year who just took some Celebrex or something.

Since the subject has been brought up.....

They way Damp runs reminds me of a woman basketball player....one about 6.4-6.5, kind of top-heavy and stiff legged.

It's maddening.

MavKikiNYC · 06-04-2005, 11:37 AM

Previously posted article.