Why The Mavs Are The League's Deepest Team - And Why That May Be A Problem - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-08-2006, 01:39 AM

I see what 5-0 is saying, and for the most part, he's right. We aren't as deep as many people think we are. We start two players that are only defensive minded and bring too players that should be starters off the bench, making our bench look much better than it really is. I still think we are a very deep team, but not so deep that it will become a problem.

Five-ofan · 08-08-2006, 07:41 AM

A) he isnt that good of a defender and B) he isnt that good of a shooter. At best he is someone who can keep the defense honest but i also think it attests to the lack of shooting the mavs have had the last two years that we think a 40% overall shooter and a 31% 3pt shooter is a "shooter". Where did this notion that george can play the 4 come from? He can play it for MAYBE 5 minutes at the maximum. He is not a backup four. Personally i dont care that much because as you said he wont be playing. That is why the depth of this team is not a problem unless you believe we dont have enough. Im not gonna go that far because despite all of my previous comments the mavs are pretty deep. They just arent the deepest team team in the league or anything.

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-08-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

That is why the depth of this team is not a problem unless you believe we dont have enough. Im not gonna go that far because despite all of my previous comments the mavs are pretty deep. They just arent the deepest team team in the league or anything.

That sums it up right there. We have pretty good depth, and our bench guys are definetly serviceable, but I wouldn't call us so deep that we have a problem.

Tokey41 · 08-08-2006, 06:20 PM

Harris, Terry, Howard, Dirk, and Diop

I know Damp should be starting but who else were you referring to? I think Johnson, Buckner, Stack, George, and Diop could all be starters on some other teams.

I'm just saying Geroge doesn't have a heavy burden on him at all, he should (in theory) be able to fit our needs here and there when theres no pressure and he knows he doesnt have a big responsibility. We won't have him out there when it matters anyway like we have all agreed. And just the simple fact that hes another guy keeping the defense honest (although we aquired a lot of players that can fill that need) is helpful since we were so clearly lacking it in the finals.

dude1394 · 08-08-2006, 07:41 PM

So who is the deepest team then, phoenix? I don't think so there, so whom?

I'm having a little bit of difficulty understanding what deep is when you have stack, buckner, johnson all starting(or would have in stacks case) last year. Not to mention croshere I think was sixth wasn't he at indiana and he's been relegated to about 8-9th here.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Harris, Terry, Howard, Dirk, and Diop

I know Damp should be starting but who else were you referring to? I think Johnson, Buckner, Stack, George, and Diop could all be starters on some other teams.

I'm just saying Geroge doesn't have a heavy burden on him at all, he should (in theory) be able to fit our needs here and there when theres no pressure and he knows he doesnt have a big responsibility. We won't have him out there when it matters anyway like we have all agreed. And just the simple fact that hes another guy keeping the defense honest (although we aquired a lot of players that can fill that need) is helpful since we were so clearly lacking it in the finals.

There isnt a single team in the nba that devean george could start on. Johnson was a starter because tinsley who isnt that good himself got hurt. Buckner started because he was on the team with the worst sgs in the whole league and im not sure i can think of more than 2 or 3 teams that diop could start on. As for stack, i dont feel like getting into the stack bashing much less being the one to start it but ill just say if the current version of Jerry stackhouse starts for you, you are in a horrible spot at the 2.

Dude, as for the deepest teams in the league i would say phoenix, Chicago, and LA are all easily deeper than dallas and thats just off the top of my head.

grndmstr_c · 08-09-2006, 02:54 PM

I've posted it before, I'll post it again. 11 of the 12 guys likely to be on the Mavs' active roster have started 6 or more playoff games in their career. This team is deep. Deeper than last year (some may counter the depth proved to be something of a mirage last year so saying this year's team is deeper is meaningless, but a huge part of that was KVH regressing into a scrub - and beyond that the team's top players were far from impressive in blowing the lead against the Heat), and IMO more intelligently constructed as well. To be sure, there are questions: Devin's development, Stack's knee, George's and Buck's outside shooting (can George regain his old 35-37% touch and can Buck maintain his recent 35-37% touch), but with the sheer bulk of capable playoff rotation players the Mavs have stockpiled I think the team stands an excellent chance of achieving enough affirmative answers to those questions that they should be right in the thick of the championship chase.

WurzburgBorn · 08-09-2006, 02:56 PM

Phoenix deeper than Dallas?
That's rich. Is Portland also?

Gotta love that amazing Phoenix bench of Eric Piatkowski, Marcus Banks, Sean Marks, James Jones, Pat Burke, and Barbosa. Wow. That's depth!

grndmstr_c · 08-09-2006, 03:15 PM

Oh yeah, one other thing re: George. I don't think he should be looked at as an option in the regular rotation at PF. An emergency player at that position for the most part. However, there are certain matchups where I'd wager he could be an effective option because of his defensive aptitude. Take Phoenix for example. I won't at all be surprised if George turns out to be the best defensive option the Mavs have had against Marion and Amare.

dirno2000 · 08-09-2006, 05:15 PM

...or Diaw, who was a matchup nightmare in the PXH series.

grndmstr_c · 08-09-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

...or Diaw, who was a matchup nightmare in the PXH series.

True true, though I think where Boris is concerned Dallas would probably benefit more from refs who are capable of recognizing a travelling violation when it occurs.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 08:59 PM

Gmc I respect your opinions more than the vast majority of posters on this board and i do expect this team to make a run at this title but its not because of some amazing depth. Yes the mavs are a deep team relative to most of the nba. Probably somewhere in the top 5-7 teams in the nba in terms of depth but they are not some depth juggernaut. I think the starters or 5 best players are much more of a strength than the depth. As for the depth last year i thought it was quite obvious that it turned out to be a mirage.

Wurzburg, yes Phoenix is deeper than dallas. Their 2-9 is better than dallas 2-9 and since dallas last 3 suck too i dont really see how the fact that might suck slightly less is that big of an advantage. No portland isnt btw.(yes i know it was rhetorical)

Edit-I do think george could help in a matchup or two but he is not the defender that he was when he first came to the league. Diaw would abuse him both in the post and at the elbow.

dude1394 · 08-09-2006, 09:25 PM

I have a hard time buying the thought that phoenix has more depth when they constantly burn their starters out. I don't get it, you might say they have a better 1-7 or something,but if you've got "depth" don't you play them?

They had 8 guys play less than 20mpg, 5 less than 10. And Amare was in there as one of the more than 10.

The mavs last year had only 6 guys play less than 20 and only DJ less than 10. That includes pavels one game of 18 minutes.

I'm just not sure how you have "depth" but you don't play them minutes?

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 09:36 PM

The reason the mavs played so many people so many minutes is that they were so hurt. For example Quis played 30 minutes a game but he only played i believe 61 games. That comes out to 210 minutes played. That is the equivalent of 25 minutes a game over a full season and he only played that due to others being hurt. The mavs have alot of players like that. Howard, Stack, Devin, KVh, Griff and obviously Daniels all missed Major amounts of time. That makes the team play many other players a large number of minutes without effecting those players mpg. Im not sure if this is coming across as i mean it too but it makes sense to me so i hope i got it out right.

The Suns are less injury prone which means that they dont have alot of rotation players who miss a whole lot of games. Amare did but i dont count him since I essentially consider there team last year to not include him. Other than him Kurt thomas and barbosa are the only guys i can think of who missed signifigant games. I could be wrong on that but i dont think so. As for why dont they play their depth? Simple, they want to be all offensive so they dont play their role players whereas the mavs start theirs.

jthig32 · 08-09-2006, 09:37 PM

Yeah, I don't care how you split it, Phoenix is not deeper than us. If anything, I think their top 5 is better than our top 5, but after 5 I think we have a huge advantage.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Yeah, I don't care how you split it, Phoenix is not deeper than us. If anything, I think their top 5 is better than our top 5, but after 5 I think we have a huge advantage.

Change 5 to 7 and more than likely 9 and you are right but through 7 they are better.

jthig32 · 08-09-2006, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Change 5 to 7 and more than likely 9 and you are right but through 7 they are better.

Diop/Amare - Suns
Dirk/Marion - Mavs
Josh/Diaw - Push
Buckner/Bell - Suns
Terry/Nash - Suns
Devin/Barbosa - Mavs
Damp/KThomas - Mavs
Stackhouse/Jones - Mavs

That's how I'd put it.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Diop/Amare - Suns
Dirk/Marion - Mavs
Josh/Diaw - Push
Buckner/Bell - Suns
Terry/Nash - Suns
Devin/Barbosa - Mavs
Damp/KThomas - Mavs
Stackhouse/Jones - Mavs

That's how I'd put it.

Your matching up by position not top 1-7. Plus Jones is better than stack and Diaw is better than Josh. If you want to do it by position than match it up with the best at each position

Damp/Amare- Suns
Dirk/Marion- Mavs
Josh/Dia-Suns
Buckner/Bell-Suns by a WHOLE LOT
Terry/Nash- Suns
Devin/Barbosa-Mavs because i love devin but this is dang close and barbosa has better numbers.
Stack/Jones-Suns. Jones is about a billion times the defender is (yes that is probably a hyperbole) and he is a good shooter as opposed to stack.

dude1394 · 08-09-2006, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Your matching up by position not top 1-7. Plus Jones is better than stack and Diaw is better than Josh. If you want to do it by position than match it up with the best at each position

Damp/Amare- Suns
Dirk/Marion- Mavs
Josh/Dia-Suns
Buckner/Bell-Suns by a WHOLE LOT
Terry/Nash- Suns
Devin/Barbosa-Mavs because i love devin but this is dang close and barbosa has better numbers.
Stack/Jones-Suns. Jones is about a billion times the defender is (yes that is probably a hyperbole) and he is a good shooter as opposed to stack.

I think it's quite hard to compare suns/mavs unless you are comparing only offense to offense. Certainly the mavs are better defensively across the board than the suns. You sure can't call Diaw a "shot-blocker" in there like diop for example.

jthig32 · 08-09-2006, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Your matching up by position not top 1-7. Plus Jones is better than stack and Diaw is better than Josh. If you want to do it by position than match it up with the best at each position

Damp/Amare- Suns
Dirk/Marion- Mavs
Josh/Dia-Suns
Buckner/Bell-Suns by a WHOLE LOT
Terry/Nash- Suns
Devin/Barbosa-Mavs because i love devin but this is dang close and barbosa has better numbers.
Stack/Jones-Suns. Jones is about a billion times the defender is (yes that is probably a hyperbole) and he is a good shooter as opposed to stack.

I disagree that Diaw is better than Howard. You but Josh on that team with Nash and he'd put up better numbers than Diaw. He's also a better defender.

I think you know that I'm not a big Stack fan, but James Jones is NOT better than him. Stack may not be consistent, but he can still carry your offense on some night, and can create actual offense. James Jones is a spot up shooter, that's it.

Devin/Barbosa is not that close IMO.

And Buckner/Bell is not that big a difference. Switch the teams and the difference wouldn't be that extreme, IMO.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:07 PM

Individually the mavs really arent better defensively except for the bigs. The mavs just actually play bigs which makes everyone better defensively. This is what makes the mavs better than they used to be. Dirk isnt that much better defensively than he was 2 years ago. He just has a center to erase his mistakes. Same for all the others. I ended up doing it the same way he did i just corrected him imo. He is more than welcome to his opinion though. You cant do it on numbers purely though because the suns play faster. Overall i think the mavs are better largely because despite less individual talent the team is more balanced. The mavs actually have centers. There isnt a single center on the suns roster. That is both what makes them special offensively but its also what hurts them defensively.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I disagree that Diaw is better than Howard. You but Josh on that team with Nash and he'd put up better numbers than Diaw. He's also a better defender.

I think you know that I'm not a big Stack fan, but James Jones is NOT better than him. Stack may not be consistent, but he can still carry your offense on some night, and can create actual offense. James Jones is a spot up shooter, that's it.

Devin/Barbosa is not that close IMO.

And Buckner/Bell is not that big a difference. Switch the teams and the difference wouldn't be that extreme, IMO.

I thoroughly disagree. For one Diaw is better defensively than Josh and i dont think its really that close. Diaw is a GREAT defender with no bigs behind him. As for the numbers he put up, Diaw is an amazing passer. Josh cant pass worth a crap. Diaw creates a large portion of his own offense. Barbosa is just as fast as devin and is one of the best shooters in the nba. I think devin will be better but right now its pretty darn close. As for stack, I just dont like him. Jones is actually a shooter.(he shot the three at 38.6% last year) and he is good defensively. He is what i think the mavs think they are getting in devean George.

jthig32 · 08-09-2006, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Individually the mavs really arent better defensively except for the bigs. The mavs just actually play bigs which makes everyone better defensively. This is what makes the mavs better than they used to be. Dirk isnt that much better defensively than he was 2 years ago. He just has a center to erase his mistakes. Same for all the others. I ended up doing it the same way he did i just corrected him imo. He is more than welcome to his opinion though. You cant do it on numbers purely though because the suns play faster. Overall i think the mavs are better largely because despite less individual talent the team is more balanced. The mavs actually have centers. There isnt a single center on the suns roster. That is both what makes them special offensively but its also what hurts them defensively.

I agree with this in general, on the defense, but I do think Josh is a better defender than Diaw, Terry, while nothing special at all, is a much better defender than Nash, and Devin is a better defender than Barbosa.

You can't overstate how awful Nash is on defense, imo.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I agree with this in general, on the defense, but I do think Josh is a better defender than Diaw, Terry, while nothing special at all, is a much better defender than Nash, and Devin is a better defender than Barbosa.

You can't overstate how awful Nash is on defense, imo.

You might want to check the on court and off court defensive splits for barbosa and Josh Howard. actually ill provide them for you. I admit i dont always abide by these but with Josh Howard on the court the mavs are actually worse than they are without him.

They give up 106.1 PP100 with him on the court and 105.6 without him. The suns on the other hand? They give up 105.2 with diaw on the court and 110.3 with him off the court. A huge difference. In essence with Diaw on the court the mavs are better than the mavs defensively and without him they are the suns we all know. Then again i thought jones was good defensively and he as a +3 off court vs on Court rating. As for terry, he is a bad defender too. In fact the suns are better with nash on the court defensively than they are without him. The mavs are better with terry off the court than they are with him defensively.

jthig32 · 08-09-2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I thoroughly disagree. For one Diaw is better defensively than Josh and i dont think its really that close. Diaw is a GREAT defender with no bigs behind him. As for the numbers he put up, Diaw is an amazing passer. Josh cant pass worth a crap. Diaw creates a large portion of his own offense. Barbosa is just as fast as devin and is one of the best shooters in the nba. I think devin will be better but right now its pretty darn close. As for stack, I just dont like him. Jones is actually a shooter.(he shot the three at 38.6% last year) and he is good defensively. He is what i think the mavs think they are getting in devean George.

I'm not sure where you're getting that Diaw is a good defender, because I just don't see it, at all. In fact I think he's well below average.

He is a very good passer. I think a push is fair.

Devin and Barbosa..ok. I think it's hard to judge by numbers as you mentioned. In just watching them, I think Devin is already a more effective PG, and is going to get better in that regard.

With Stack and Jones, I realize you can't stand him. But surely you recognize how much more we ask of Stack. He is asked to carry the offense when Dirk and JET are resting. He's not a shooter, but if he played on the Suns and was asked only to take advantage of what Nash create, as James does, he would shoot a far, FAR better pecentage. I really don't think there's any comparison here. As much as Stack drives me crazy, he can be counted on to create offense when he's going well. James Jones is Steve Kerr with some defense.

jthig32 · 08-09-2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

You might want to check the on court and off court defensive splits for barbosa and Josh Howard. actually ill provide them for you. I admit i dont always abide by these but with Josh Howard on the court the mavs are actually worse than they are without him.

They give up 106.1 PP100 with him on the court and 105.6 without him. The suns on the other hand? They give up 105.2 with diaw on the court and 110.3 with him off the court. A huge difference. In essence with Diaw on the court the mavs are better than the mavs defensively and without him they are the suns we all know. Then again i thought jones was good defensively and he as a +3 off court vs on Court rating. As for terry, he is a bad defender too. In fact the suns are better with nash on the court defensively than they are without him. The mavs are better with terry off the court than they are with him defensively.

But you also have to look at what the lineups look like when those players are out. For Phoenix, last year, it mostly likely meant they were ultra small, with someone like Jones or Eddie House coming in his place. In House's case especially, that's going to be a defensive drop off no matter who he's replacing.

With Josh, you might have had Griff coming in, or Quisy earlier in the season. Another thing to consider would be the times Josh was guarding a very important offensive player, and might have been taken out whenever that opposing player was taken out, thus decreasing the opponent's offense when he was off the court.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:22 PM

Did you miss Diaw shutting dirk down towards the end of one of the regular season games last year? he is a STUD defensively. Yes stack is better than jones but i just hate the guy so i had to add it in there.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

But you also have to look at what the lineups look like when those players are out. For Phoenix, last year, it mostly likely meant they were ultra small, with someone like Jones or Eddie House coming in his place. In House's case especially, that's going to be a defensive drop off no matter who he's replacing.

With Josh, you might have had Griff coming in, or Quisy earlier in the season. Another thing to consider would be the times Josh was guarding a very important offensive player, and might have been taken out whenever that opposing player was taken out, thus decreasing the opponent's offense when he was off the court.

Your not understanding me, despite the mavs being better defensively overall, The suns with Boris Diaw on the court are BETTER defensively than the mavs with Josh Howard on the court. Diaw is a better defender. I could see if it was like a 110 on court to 115 off court thing but even then a -5 is flat out amazing for an on court off court swap. He takes the suns from a horrible defensive team without him on the court to actually an above average defensive team with him on the court. That is amazing.

dude1394 · 08-09-2006, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Your not understanding me, despite the mavs being better defensively overall, The suns with Boris Diaw on the court are BETTER defensively than the mavs with Josh Howard on the court. Diaw is a better defender. I could see if it was like a 110 on court to 115 off court thing but even then a -5 is flat out amazing for an on court off court swap. He takes the suns from a horrible defensive team without him on the court to actually an above average defensive team with him on the court. That is amazing.

I'm confused why you compare their center to josh howard? Josh isn't covering power forwards or centers? And I can't quite figure out where the suns became an above average defensive team?

jthig32 · 08-09-2006, 10:28 PM

Yes, I guess I did miss that, because I definitely don't remember it. I've never seen anyone describe Diaw as a stud defensively, and I've personally never seen it. I guess I'll have to pay closer attention to that next season.

dude1394 · 08-09-2006, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

You might want to check the on court and off court defensive splits for barbosa and Josh Howard. actually ill provide them for you. I admit i dont always abide by these but with Josh Howard on the court the mavs are actually worse than they are without him.

Something is awry when the mavs are better defensively without josh then they are with him? So does that mean that stack is a better defender?

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:34 PM

On march 5th he held dirk to 3 4th quarter points while having a triple double himself.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Something is awry when the mavs are better defensively without josh then they are with him? So does that mean that stack is a better defender?

No because they are better without him too. It means that griff is a better defender.

dude1394 · 08-09-2006, 10:36 PM

I just dont' buy it, I'd have to see a lot more defensive data to believe that the mavs are better defensively without josh on the court than on.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:38 PM

As I said before, i dont think this metric is perfect at all and i dont think it necesarrily means the mavs are better without josh but it does show that Diaw is better than Josh defensively.

dude1394 · 08-09-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

On march 5th he held dirk to 3 4th quarter points while having a triple double himself.

Okay...I'm not getting it, dirk had 21 points that game? How many shots did he take? How many did he miss? Who was hot? I find it hard to make a case for a guy on one quarter.

dude1394 · 08-09-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

As I said before, i dont think this metric is perfect at all and i dont think it necesarrily means the mavs are better without josh but it does show that Diaw is better than Josh defensively.

I still don't see how you make that leap. How does Diaw coming in as a small forward playing center compare to Josh playing small forwards and shooting guards? I mean in the first clippers playoff game brand scores 40? I don't know who was covering him but if not diow then who?

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:44 PM

Im not making it on one quarter. Im making it based on the season but since we are mavs fans i though mentioning that he shut down our superstar who is arguably the toughest cover in the league might make some headway. I guess not.

Five-ofan · 08-09-2006, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I still don't see how you make that leap. How does Diaw coming in as a small forward playing center compare to Josh playing small forwards and shooting guards? I mean in the first clippers playoff game brand scores 40? I don't know who was covering him but if not diow then who?

Tim Thomas.

jthig32 · 08-09-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Im not making it on one quarter. Im making it based on the season but since we are mavs fans i though mentioning that he shut down our superstar who is arguably the toughest cover in the league might make some headway. I guess not.

Chris Kaman gave Dirk some problems at times this year as well. Anyone can give someone problems for a small amount of time. I have NEVER heard anyone advance the theory that Diaw is even an above average defender.

I'll have to keep my eyes open for this.