Kidd at the Olympics

[SMC0007]

On here it matters what we think. And in general I think teams don't survive without fans!
IF Dirk is happy thats what matters to the MAVS, What does that mean? What if he liked Bradley and Abdul Wahad and they make him happy? What if he liked Steve Nash? Oops..

[sike]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm with alby on this one. I think it is quite clear that Dirk wanted/wants Kidd here, and I ride with Dirk.

I just hope Dirk is proven correct.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

But Dirk is not a GM

I wonder...

[AxdemxO]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

On here it matters what we think. And in general I think teams don't survive without fans!
IF Dirk is happy thats what matters to the MAVS, What does that mean? What if he liked Bradley and Abdul Wahad and they make him happy? What if he liked Steve Nash? Oops..

Umm yee he like Nash, and trust me thye want to keep Dirk happy. They dont have to, but they want to. Thye let Nash go, but both Nash and Dirk understood that. Now if they started blowing up the team and went into the lottery this year while Dirk only has a few years left, then I dont think he would be happy and might look to do elsewhere. I think Dirk feels like Kidd gives him the best chance to win it all this year or maybe next year and that makes him happy. What happens after that, we will see.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by alby

If Dirk's happy with Kidd, I'm happy with Kidd.

Go Mavericks

Oh really?...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

A "pat on the head" isn't the same as "being told that underdog loves rainbows"


[edited because Sike asked me to - I think this is what he wanted...]

[AxdemxO]

Look at Dirks face thou. The Kidd pic hes smiling. The Harris one he looks like he gonna kill some1. : )

All joking aside thou if anyone thinks that Dirk is not happier wit Kidd then he was with Harris should chek themselves

[LSMF]

I hope you guys know Dirk is also happy with JJB...

[sike]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

I hope you guys know Dirk is also happy with JJB...

But so happy with Devin...at least according to all his comments about getting better passes than he'd ever gotten bofore, etc...

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Underdog

A "pat on the head" isn't the same as (funny but a bit too graphic)...

Now that was funny!

[LSMF]

This is sad, I can't believe people have now started defending the Kidd trade by saying it makes Dirk more happy. You do realize if we had just changed our coach to a proven coach a year earlier we could have a chance to be way better than we are right now. Wouldn't that have made Dirk happy? Dont worry though my fellow mavs fans we'll see how "happy" Dirk is with the Kidd trade when we fail again this year because of this foolish trade.

[alby]

Look at Dirkster's face with Devin. That's just pure anguish.

[sike]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

Dont worry though my fellow mavs fans we'll see how "happy" Dirk is with the Kidd trade when we fail again this year because of this foolish trade.

I agree that the success of the Kidd trade will be determined by how the team plays this year...but not that they were going anywhere with Harris at the pg.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by alby

Look at Dirkster's face with Devin. That's just pure anguish.

It is anguish. But there will be more anguish on his face when Kidd is bricking jumpers, and getting torched by every elite Pg in the west.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

This is sad, I can't believe people have now started defending the Kidd trade by saying it makes Dirk more happy. You do realize if we had just changed our coach to a proven coach a year earlier we could have a chance to be way better than we are right now. Wouldn't that have made Dirk happy? Dont worry though my fellow mavs fans we'll see how "happy" Dirk is with the Kidd trade when we fail again this year because of this foolish trade.

It's not "that Dirk is happy" it's "WHY Dirk is happy"...

Maybe you were too busy suffering to notice that Dirk, Damp, and JET's stats all went up after the Kidd trade?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

It is anguish. But there will be more anguish on his face when Kidd is bricking jumpers, and getting torched by every elite Pg in the west.

[alby]

lol

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by Underdog

It's not "that Dirk is happy" it's "WHY Dirk is happy"...

Maybe you were too busy suffering to notice that Dirk, Damp, and JET's stats all went up after the Kidd trade?

Yup I was also suffering when I watched Chris paul shoot 50% from the field with Kidd Guarding him. And I was also suffering when I watched this team lose in 5 games to a team that they had completely owned before the Kidd trade. But I know why we lost though my fellow Mavs fans it wasn't Kidd's fault, it was Avery's fault. And the team also had no time to gel. Let's keep lying to ourselves that that is why we lost.

[alby]

So we lost to the Hornets because Kidd was PG and not Devin....

............... /thread

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

Yup I was also suffering when I watched Chris paul shoot 50% from the field with Kidd Guarding him. And I was also suffering when I watched this team lose in 5 games to a team that they had completely owned before the Kidd trade. But I know why we lost though my fellow Mavs fans it wasn't Kidd's fault, it was Avery's fault. And the team also had no time to gel. Let's keep lying to ourselves that that is why we lost.

03/07/07 (against Devin Harris):

Chris Paul - 25 points / 50% shooting / 16 assists / 11-11 free throws


Nets - 96 / Hornets - 107



Urban Dictionary: pwned

[AxdemxO]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

Yup I was also suffering when I watched Chris paul shoot 50% from the field with Kidd Guarding him. And I was also suffering when I watched this team lose in 5 games to a team that they had completely owned before the Kidd trade. But I know why we lost though my fellow Mavs fans it wasn't Kidd's fault, it was Avery's fault. And the team also had no time to gel. Let's keep lying to ourselves that that is why we lost.

Mann I am starting to think you mite have issues that are not BB related at this point. Just sayin mann

Kidd played 29 games for us. He shot like 43% from the floor, like 47% from s point land. Give me one other pg that can stop CP3 other then Williams and maybe Davis.

29 games
29 games
29 games

Now if 41 games into this season wer not in the playoff pic and not doin well. Then Ill admit that your rite, until then you mite wanna chek yourself

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

Yup I was also suffering when I watched Chris paul shoot 50% from the field with Kidd Guarding him. And I was also suffering when I watched this team lose in 5 games to a team that they had completely owned before the Kidd trade. But I know why we lost though my fellow Mavs fans it wasn't Kidd's fault, it was Avery's fault. And the team also had no time to gel. Let's keep lying to ourselves that that is why we lost.

Dood what? We smoked them the last game of the season, With Kidd!

*We won 89-80 with DHArris (DH=10pts 3ast) (CP=22pts 3ast)
*We won 111-98 with JKidd (JK=27pts 10ast) (cp=20pts 10ast)

Not sure what you were watching but in the reg season the wins that we got against N.O., JKIDD was more dominant than DHArris by far! CP grew up and became a stud this season, against a lot of good PG's not just JKIdd.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

This is sad, I can't believe people have now started defending the Kidd trade by saying it makes Dirk more happy. You do realize if we had just changed our coach to a proven coach a year earlier we could have a chance to be way better than we are right now. Wouldn't that have made Dirk happy? Dont worry though my fellow mavs fans we'll see how "happy" Dirk is with the Kidd trade when we fail again this year because of this foolish trade.

My first thought during the GSW series was Kidd would fit perfectly because the ball would be in his hand and creating for others. Instead Dallas went with isolating Dirk which played into Nellie's hands. Without any adjustment, the series was lost. I thought a trade for Kidd was in the cards that offseason....now with 20-20 hindsight it would have been a wasted year, given Avery's system with kidd down the stretch. Avery's lack of imagination offensively doomed this team from the start. Now with Devin and Carlisle, I think it would have allowed the Mavs to have more chips to work with. Devin has a better jumper and is a better finisher. I woulld allow Devin to run the offense create for the rest of the team as a true point guard his ability to shoot gives the team an added dimension that Kidd dosn't have. Plus if no trade is made, Mavs would still have their picks and could have parlayed it into Ron Artest. Rockets reportedly gave up a late 1st(Greene) and a future first for Artest. In addition the Mavs would not have used the MLE to get Diop, he would have just signed with Bird rules and the Mavs could have entertained visions of adding a FA 2 guard to the mix, Pietrus......Miles.....

[Dr.Zoidberg]

WOW again this Kidd discussion:

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

February 21, 2008
Can Kidd Save Dallas?

A mere twenty months ago the Dallas Mavericks were up 2-0 in the NBA Finals. Since this time the Mavericks experienced a devastating low (four straight losses in the NBA Finals), a high (best record in the 2006-07 season), and another devastating low (upset in the first round of the 2007 playoffs).

Although the playoffs in 2007 were disappointing, people still expected a team that won 67 games last year to contend in 2007-08. But at the midpoint of this season Dallas had clearly fallen off the pace. The team’s efficiency differential (offensive efficiency minus defensive efficiency) had fallen from 7.8 in 2006-07 to only 5.1 after 41 games in 2007-08. Such a mark at the midpoint was eclipsed by Boston, Detroit, Phoenix, New Orleans, San Antonio, and the LA Lakers.

At the All-Star break the team’s differential was only 4.3, a level that now lagged behind the Utah Jazz and the Toronto Raptors (in addition to all the other teams listed). If efficiency differential predicted the seedings in the Western Conference playoffs, the Mavericks would only hold the 6th seed in 2008. In sum, the Mavericks title window was clearly closing and something had to be done.

That something happened over the All-Star break. After much discussion, the Mavericks finally acquired Jason Kidd from the New Jersey Nets. Dallas clearly expects the acquisition of Kidd to vault the team back into title contention. But do the numbers support this belief?

Before I get to that question, let me address a few other issues about this trade.

Why did Dallas Decline?

This question was addressed earlier in the season. Basically, the MVP of 2007 - Dirk Nowitzki - is offering less this season. Last season his WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes] was 0.306. This season his mark stands at 0.218. As Table One illustrates, much of the decline in the Mavericks fortunes this year are due to the drop-off in the 2007 MVP’s production.

Table One: The Dallas Mavericks after 53 games

And as detailed in December - and repeated in Table Two below — much of Nowitzki’s decline is due to reductions in his level of shooting efficiency. In 2006-07 Nowitzki scored 1.06 points per field goal attempt [(PTS-FTM)/FGA]. This year he’s only getting 0.98 points per shot from the field.

Table Two: Dirk Nowitzki’s Career

When we look at Nowitzki’s shooting we see declines in all areas. From the free throw line his percentage has dropped from 90% to 87%. From two point range his efficiency has also dropped, but only from 51.5% to 50.5%. And then there is his shooting from beyond the arc. Last year Nowitzki converted on 41.6% of three point shots. This year his conversion rate is only 28.7%.

It’s his performance from three point range that’s clearly the bulk of the problem. If Nowitzki maintained his 2006-07 shooting efficiency levels from the free throw line, two point range, and beyond the arc, his scoring output would be 82 points higher this season. Of these 82 points, 68% would come from returning his efficiency from three point range to what we saw last year.

It should be emphasized that even if Nowitzki was hitting his shots, the Mavericks would not quite have the efficiency differential it had last year (the current mark of 4.3 would rise to 6.0) And even if it had the efficiency differential it had in 2006-07, this team would still be lagging behind Boston and Detroit. And given the Lakers acquisition of Gasol, probably the Lakers as well. So the Mavericks needed to do more than hope Nowitzki would get his shot back.

Has Jason Kidd declined?

Obviously the Mavericks think the acquisition of Kidd helps this team contend with Boston, Detroit, and the Lakers. Critics, though, note that Kidd is not an efficient scorer. Furthermore, Kidd’s turnovers are suddenly up. This combination of inefficient scoring and high turnovers would suggest that Kidd cannot possibly help the Mavericks.

When we turn to all the statistics, though, that’s not the story we see. Table Three compares Kidd in 2007-08 to three benchmarks - the average point guard in the NBA, Devin Harris (the player Kidd replaces in Dallas), Kidd’s career performance prior to this season.

Table Three: Jason Kidd and Devin Harris

As noted, Kidd has problems with shooting efficiency and turnovers. We see this whether we compare him to the average point guard or Harris. But Kidd is very good on the boards and as a passer. And these two positives overwhelm his negatives.

It’s important to note that Kidd, despite his age, has not declined much in overall productivity. He has never been an efficient scorer, and that remains the case. Although his turnovers are somewhat higher, his rebounds are also a bit higher. Consequently, Kidd has a very high Win Score this season and his WP48 of 0.337 easily surpasses the mark of an average point guard (0.100) and Harris (0.135).

In sum, if the Mavericks replaced Harris with Kidd at the start of the season, Dallas would be on pace to post the same Wins Produced it posted last year. In other words, swapping Harris for Kidd more than overcomes the decline we see in Nowitzki’s production.

Back on Top?

But again, as noted above, returning to what this team was last year is not good enough. Yes, the team won 67 games last year. That record, though, was a bit of an illusion. When we look at efficiency differential, the Mavericks in 2006-07 lagged behind the Spurs (who eventually took the title).

And the Kidd trade does not exactly return the Mavericks to what they were. To get Kidd the Mavericks had to send Harris, DeSagana Diop, Trenton Hassell, Keith Van Horn, Maurice Ager (along with draft picks and cash) to the Nets. In return, the Mavericks were given Kidd, Malik Allen, and Antoine Wright. As noted, Kidd and Harris are above average performers this season. Of the remaining players, Hassell, Ager, Allen, and Wright post a WP48 that is below zero. So these players do not help either team.

Diop, though, is a different story. Diop has developed into an above average center, with a 0.212 WP48 this season (last year it was 0.151). The loss of Diop hurts the Mavericks. Yes, it’s still the case the Mavericks are better after the trade. But by my calculations (which assumes I can guess how minutes are going to be allocated on the re-configured Mavericks), Dallas will only win about 55 games this season. Prior to the trade the team was on pace - given its efficiency differential - to win 51 games.

Obviously this trade is not about the regular season. It is the playoffs that matter for the Mavericks. Given that focus, here is what we know:

1. The Mavericks before the trade were not going to be favored in any playoff series. So a title run was improbable.

2. After the trade they are better, but I do not think they have closed the gap with the Lakers (assuming Bynum comes back healthy).

3. I do think this trade makes the Mavericks more competitive with the other top teams in the West. But there are quite a few “top” teams, so the playoffs are still uncertain.

One last note on the trade: I don’t think the Mavericks mortgaged their future in this trade. Harris is only slightly above average. The core of this team - Nowitzki, Josh Howard, and Jason Terry - remains intact. So I think this team can still contend over the next few years, even when Kidd stops playing like a kid.

- DJ

Link

Comparing Jason Kidd and Devin Harris (Thanks to V from LMFF):

Statistic.......Jason Kidd....Average Point Guard.....Devin Harris.....Jason Kidd
.......................2007-08.............................................2007-08.............Career

Points per shot.....0.89...........................0.95...................1.03...........................0.91
Adjusted FGQ.....44.30%.....................47.40%...................51.60%....................45.30%
FTQ......................0.82........................0.79.....................0.82..........................0.78
FGAttempts..........13.9........................15.8......................15.7...........................16.6
FTAttempts............2.8........................4.3.........................7.9...........................4.7
Points Scored..........14.6......................18.4.......................22.7.........................18.6
Rebounds...............10.4.......................4.7........................3.7...........................8.6
Steals....................1.9.........................2...........................2.3...........................2.6
Turnovers.............4.7.........................3.4........................3.8...........................4.1
Net Possessions.......7.6........................3.3........................2.2............................7.1
Blocked Shots.........0.4........................0.3........................0.1............................0.4
Assists..................13.4.......................8.6........................8.4...........................11.8
Personal Fouls........2.3........................3.6.........................5.1...........................2.4
Win Score...........12.7........................6.3........................6.9...........................11.7

Link

[AxdemxO]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

My first thought during the GSW series was Kidd would fit perfectly because the ball would be in his hand and creating for others. Instead Dallas went with isolating Dirk which played into Nellie's hands. Without any adjustment, the series was lost. I thought a trade for Kidd was in the cards that offseason....now with 20-20 hindsight it would have been a wasted year, given Avery's system with kidd down the stretch. Avery's lack of imagination offensively doomed this team from the start. Now with Devin and Carlisle, I think it would have allowed the Mavs to have more chips to work with. Devin has a better jumper and is a better finisher. I woulld allow Devin to run the offense create for the rest of the team as a true point guard his ability to shoot gives the team an added dimension that Kidd dosn't have. Plus if no trade is made, Mavs would still have their picks and could have parlayed it into Ron Artest. Rockets reportedly gave up a late 1st(Greene) and a future first for Artest. In addition the Mavs would not have used the MLE to get Diop, he would have just signed with Bird rules and the Mavs could have entertained visions of adding a FA 2 guard to the mix, Pietrus......Miles.....

I dont see a point in posts like this. You are describing something that can never be changed.

[AxdemxO]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

WOW again this Kidd discussion:

Great stuff there

[BGMaverick9]

longsufferingmavsfan...we get that you don't like the trade! You're one of the most pessimistic people I've ever seen on here. It sounds like you're totally dead set on your opinion and won't give some chance to accept or agree to any other persons point...you're just ready on your box ready to say I told you so. Sheesh.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

longsufferingmavsfan...we get that you don't like the trade! You're one of the most pessimistic people I've ever seen on here.

He has been leaning toward the negative side lately...I feel for him...but he could turn out completely correct.

[ty]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

Yup I was also suffering when I watched Chris paul shoot 50% from the field with Kidd Guarding him. And I was also suffering when I watched this team lose in 5 games to a team that they had completely owned before the Kidd trade. But I know why we lost though my fellow Mavs fans it wasn't Kidd's fault, it was Avery's fault. And the team also had no time to gel. Let's keep lying to ourselves that that is why we lost.

Good defense in basketball isn't an individual feat. Good defense is all about the team...help...rotation...etc.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by ty

Good defense in basketball isn't an individual feat. Good defense is all about the team...help...rotation...etc.

This is true to to longsufferingmavsfans point, trading Diop weakened our defense and our ability to slow Paul.

Plus Kidd didn't do much to counter him with his 9/7/6.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

longsufferingmavsfan...we get that you don't like the trade! You're one of the most pessimistic people I've ever seen on here. It sounds like you're totally dead set on your opinion and won't give some chance to accept or agree to any other persons point...you're just ready on your box ready to say I told you so. Sheesh.

Im usually very optimistic and in a cheerful mood but I just really hate the Kidd trade to be honest. I just felt that the group before the Kidd trade just needed one more chance and they could be champs. But then this trade was made and I never liked it. But honestly I want Kidd to succeed with us but I just dont like what I saw last year and what kills me is that most people on here would rather pretend that everything was Avery's fault than to say we really need to get better. My apologies to anyone I may have pissed off but this topic just gets me in a bad mood. Hopefully Kidd will be better next season, hopefully the whole Mavs team can get better next season. Lets Go Mavs!

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

But Dirk is not a GM, so the argument that we should be ok with is if Dirk is happy is, imo, not very logical.

Honestly -- and you know I mean no offense by this -- I think your argument is the one that's not very logical. I'm not sure why Dirk not being the GM leads to the conclusion that we shouldn't be guided by what Dirk wants, unless your assumption is that the GM is always "correct" on player personnel decisions. I know it's the GM's job, but that doesn't mean we have to side with the GM over our homeboy Dirk.

Personally, I trust Dirk's opinion on players (at least established players) just as much, if not more, than Donnie's.

[jthig32]

I'm not saying I assume the GM is always correct. And obviously the GM wanted Kidd here as well. So they're both on the same page.

But it's completely illogical to me to trust a star player's opinion of an aquisition completely. Being a good basketball player does not make you a good evaluator of basketball talent or a good evaluator of how pieces fit together. With the schedule NBA players keep, how often do you think Dirk had seen Kidd play over the past three seasons or so? I'd say he was very unqualified to give an opinion on how much Kidd's game had started to decline. Obviously any NBA star is going to be excited about the IDEA of playing with Kidd, but there's no way they could speak to his current level of ability as intelligently as a GM whose job it is to keep tabs on things like that.

I'm interested in keeping Dirk happy, for sure. But I'm not real interested in Dirk's evalutaion of a player's current ability unless he sees him on a regular basis.

[ghazi]

Kiddirk'08

[AxdemxO]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not saying I assume the GM is always correct. And obviously the GM wanted Kidd here as well. So they're both on the same page.

But it's completely illogical to me to trust a star player's opinion of an aquisition completely. Being a good basketball player does not make you a good evaluator of basketball talent or a good evaluator of how pieces fit together. With the schedule NBA players keep, how often do you think Dirk had seen Kidd play over the past three seasons or so? I'd say he was very unqualified to give an opinion on how much Kidd's game had started to decline. Obviously any NBA star is going to be excited about the IDEA of playing with Kidd, but there's no way they could speak to his current level of ability as intelligently as a GM whose job it is to keep tabs on things like that.

I'm interested in keeping Dirk happy, for sure. But I'm not real interested in Dirk's evalutaion of a player's current ability unless he sees him on a regular basis.

Soo Ok then I guess Dirk evaluation of Harris was poor??? rite