Mark: Players who don't give effort will be gone next season - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

ty · 03-04-2009, 05:42 PM

Re: Cuban

You just now figured that out?

Triple T's · 03-04-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Who are those lesser teams you've seen with a couple of star players and less talent? And a couple of star players is more than this team has. I see Dirk but aside from him there aren't any star players.

Depends on what you call a star player? You wouldn't call Jet, nor Kidd a star player? Your crazy if you dont. Star players? Yes. Superstar players probably not at this point, but definitely difference makers. Josh is on that edge, probably won't get there with this team any time soon unless he has one of those come to jesus meetings. No, this team is plenty talented, but talent with no effort is a flash in the pan ... but complete effort less a decent amount off talent, is a bird in hand.

Just ask yourself why has JJ and singleton seen so much court time as of recently? The same reason why Green hasn't seen as much playing time thus far, but is also the same reason he's starting to fill a small spot in the rotation now. This team has a serious energy deficiency, but those guys [despite their physical limitations] really help fill that void.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 03-04-2009, 05:51 PM

The team we have now could own the 2006 team we had. If we played at 100%.

So what happened??

Teams got better by acquiring 3 all-stars and other teams got worse by losing their all-stars.

Triple T's · 03-04-2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoinewalker

mark cuban has no one to blame but himself for making that moronic trade that brought in jason kidd for devin harris.

yea, devin wouldnt have made a substantial amount of difference for this franchise this year. Don't be so delusional. Find another dog pile.

NYMAVGUY · 03-04-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple T's

Depends on what you call a star player? You wouldn't call Jet, nor Kidd a star player? Your crazy if you dont. Star players? Yes. Superstar players probably not at this point, but definitely difference makers. Josh is on that edge, probably won't get there with this team any time soon unless he has one of those come to jesus meetings. No, this team is plenty talented, but talent with no effort is a flash in the pan ... but complete effort less a decent amount off talent, is a bird in hand.

Just ask yourself why has JJ and singleton seen so much court time as of recently? The same reason why Green hasn't seen as much playing time thus far, but is also the same reason he's starting to fill a small spot in the rotation now. This team has a serious energy deficiency, but those guys [despite their physical limitations] really help fill that void.

What makes Jason Kidd and Jason Terry Stars?

Triple T's · 03-04-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

The team we have now could own the 2006 team we had. If we played at 100%.

So what happened??

Teams got better by acquiring 3 all-stars and other teams got worse by losing their all-stars.

basically, but there arent too many deals like those to be had. Especially now. Teams are hanging on to their big men, and good guards are a dime a dozen. So, you can make a trade to bring in a guy that shows some promise, but at the risk of screwing your chemistry and future cap situations. The last thing you wanna do is deal just for the sake of dealing, then when that falls apart, everyone can complain about that! But this isn't over yet. We can at least see how the team responds in the next week or two preceeding the playoffs and go from there.

So honestly, its on the players on the court to get it done, regardless of whats on the way or not on the way. You cant sit there and blame management for not bailing out a team thats significantly underperforming on a nightly basis.

NYMAVGUY · 03-04-2009, 06:04 PM

If I were Dirk I'd be pissed and looking for a way out. I'm sorry I LOVE Mark Cuban, but he's wrong on this one. Maybe he's trying to be a motivator. but this is HIS team that he put together. He went to get a aging point guard whose a defensive liability and can't shoot.

Triple T's · 03-04-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYMAVGUY

What makes Jason Kidd and Jason Terry Stars?

Terry has been clutch all season. His numbers prove that. What else you want him to do? How many other one dimentional players out there are stars in this league? A ton. But few have the midrange game that Jet does. And the Jet/Dirk PNR has been money for years. So much so that teams have game planned specifically to shut down his production, knowing that if they accomplish that, they can beat dallas.

Kidd, well, has been kidd. He fills up the stat sheet. He continues to make playsdown the stretch for this team albeit not on the scoreboard. But his dimes and hockey assists account for the points he doesnt score. You wanna fault him for not being a shutdown defender? Who is?? Guards are incredibly difficult to stop these days especially if youre on an island with not help behind you! Does he have that lateral quickess he once had? But few do have the ability to slow down any of the other point guards in this league. But as always, you take the good with the bad and jason's team defense has been awesome this year. So, you can take shots at him, but when this team is going good, its because Kidd's the pulse and the others are running along side of him. When the entire team begins to follow suit, youll start to understand what an incredible asset kidd is to this team.

Triple T's · 03-04-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYMAVGUY

If I were Dirk I'd be pissed and looking for a way out. I'm sorry I LOVE Mark Cuban, but he's wrong on this one. Maybe he's trying to be a motivator. but this is HIS team that he put together. He went to get a aging point guard whose a defensive liability and can't shoot.

So why should you feel the need to motivate someone whom is being paid exceptional well to do a job to the best of his ability?
Apparently there's a lack of it somewhere. Why wouldn't a boss be pissed.

Second, youre acting like devin is playing 1v5 and single handedly shooting teams out of slumps? Because if THAT's what you think, i do apologize.

But as HIS team, you call it, he is calling out the mavs LACK OF EFFORT. Not talent. And he has the right to call out an employee whos lack of personal motivation is adversly affecting the team as a whole. I mean, you can sometimes deal with losing, but you would absolutely hate to lose without giving out your best.

Dirkgreatness · 03-04-2009, 06:33 PM

wrong thread.

ghazi · 03-04-2009, 06:35 PM

I disagree strongly that this team could beat the '06 team.

NYMAVGUY · 03-04-2009, 06:39 PM

This sounds like the 90's Knicks. They had the Great Star Patrick ewing. The never got a ring cause the never put another great player with him. Jason Kidd and JET were like Larry "grand mama" Johnson and John Starks. Pat reminds me of Dirk. Cuban thinks role players who give you 20 ppg are Stars. John Starks wasn't a star, he was a CBA PLAYER, neither is Jason Terry or Josh Howard for that matter. No other team (maybe 1or 2 would) would treat these players like anything other than role players. Wally Serbiak could give you 20 a night if there's nobody else on the team who could score. And Larry Johnson was past his prime a la Jason Kidd, had a huge contract, a bad back and overnight became a 3 pt shooter! LOL. I laugh now cause it hurt so much back then. The same as this Mavs situation is hurting now. i'm also hurting for dirk, like I did for Pat Ewing. I hope Dirk gets out, because FANS who believe everything is fine, DON"T DESERVE A PLAYER OF HIS CALIBER! They should want to see his career mean something. They should want him to get a ring.
Go Mavs!!! Don't be the 90's Knicks, they always made th playoffs too.

tcat075 · 03-04-2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

I disagree strongly that this team could beat the '06 team.

Avery's still the coach.

That the only thing going in the favor of the 09 Mavs.

Dirkgreatness · 03-04-2009, 06:47 PM

Avery wasn't that bad of a coach, imo.

MavsX · 03-04-2009, 06:48 PM

Devean George is still on this team? WTF

NYMAVGUY · 03-04-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple T's

So why should you feel the need to motivate someone whom is being paid exceptional well to do a job to the best of his ability?
Apparently there's a lack of it somewhere. Why wouldn't a boss be pissed.

Second, youre acting like devin is playing 1v5 and single handedly shooting teams out of slumps? Because if THAT's what you think, i do apologize.

But as HIS team, you call it, he is calling out the mavs LACK OF EFFORT. Not talent. And he has the right to call out an employee whos lack of personal motivation is adversly affecting the team as a whole. I mean, you can sometimes deal with losing, but you would absolutely hate to lose without giving out your best.

Owners never call out talent because that would be admitting that they made a mistake aquiring a player. All owners complain about effort. The Detroit Lions complained about their teams effort. Put together a team that can win not just compete and then you can make those arguements stick with more than 50% of the fans. The Celtics owners, Jerry Jones and the Steinbrenners's can complain about effort all day.

MavsX · 03-04-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkgreatness

Avery wasn't that bad of a coach, imo.

and the award for donkey of the year goes to....

Dirkgreatness · 03-04-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsX

and the award for donkey of the year goes to....

tcat075 · 03-04-2009, 06:54 PM

Eh, I don't really know whether Avery was really that bad of a coach or not. To be honest? This is really the first year I'm a true Mavericks fan. I'm only 15. I mean, I know my Maverick history, and I know all about the 06 Finals, and about the 07 GS flop/fluke, but I never experienced it. I never really experienced Avery either.

But Avery is an easy figure to blame. I was really just going for laughs. To be honest, I'm not sure I'm entitled to make up my opinion on whether he was a good coach or not. Without experiencing his coaching years first hand, all I have to rely on is fan feedback. Often bitter fans, mad at Avery for not ever winning a Championship for them. Maybe its not Avery they're mad at, maybe its the Mavs in general. But Avery is easy to vent at, and reading their rants is a lot of my understanding of Avery as a coach. And obviously that's not a great primary source information right there.

Point is, its not my intention to go around saying Avery was a bad coach (and this applies to many other things) when I watched probably 20 games with Avery at the helms, all at the end of the 07-08 season.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 03-04-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Eh, I don't really know whether Avery was really that bad of a coach or not. To be honest? This is really the first year I'm a true Mavericks fan. I'm only 15. I mean, I know my Maverick history, and I know all about the 06 Finals, and about the 07 GS flop/fluke, but I never experienced it. I never really experienced Avery either.

But Avery is an easy figure to blame. I was really just going for laughs. To be honest, I'm not sure I'm entitled to make up my opinion on whether he was a good coach or not. Without experiencing his coaching years first hand, all I have to rely on is fan feedback. Often bitter fans, mad at Avery for not ever winning a Championship for them. Maybe its not Avery they're mad at, maybe its the Mavs in general. But Avery is easy to vent at, and reading their rants is a lot of my understanding of Avery as a coach. And obviously that's not a great primary source information right there.

Point is, its not my intention to go around saying Avery was a bad coach (and this applies to many other things) when I watched probably 20 games with Avery at the helms, all at the end of the 07-08 season.

Yeah! Finally we get some more young people in here

Thespiralgoeson · 03-04-2009, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

We wouldn't be a single inch closer to the championship if we still had Devin... the guy simply wasn't a good fit here.

You're outta your damn mind. Did you even watch the Mavs last year before the trade? He was highlight of the season. Would we still be contenders if he was here? Probably not, but I guarantee you we'd be a hell of a lot closer if he was. If Devin was still here, then I'd say we were only one move away from being back in the elite class. Now? Now we're better off blowing it up and starting from scratch. But yeah, you're outta your damn mind if you think we wouldn't be better with a 20 point scorer starting at point.

Edit: And while I'm on the subject, I might as well say for the record that I firmly believe if Devin hadn't gotten injured he never would've been traded. That whole thing was pure panic and knee-jerk.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 03-04-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

You're outta your damn mind. Did you even watch the Mavs last year before the trade? He was highlight of the season. Would we still be contenders if he was here? Probably not, but I guarantee you we'd be a hell of a lot closer if he was. If Devin was still here, then I'd say we were only one move away from being back in the elite class. Now? Now we're better off blowing it up and starting from scratch. But yeah, you're outta your damn mind if you think we wouldn't be better with a 20 point scorer starting at point.

Ya we were kicking ass. I remember Harris owned the Rockets in Houston in a game where we should of lost.
Harris got injured and we traded him.

If Harris was still here dirk would be avg 23 ppg

Thespiralgoeson · 03-04-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Eh, I don't really know whether Avery was really that bad of a coach or not. To be honest? This is really the first year I'm a true Mavericks fan. I'm only 15. I mean, I know my Maverick history, and I know all about the 06 Finals, and about the 07 GS flop/fluke, but I never experienced it. I never really experienced Avery either.

But Avery is an easy figure to blame. I was really just going for laughs. To be honest, I'm not sure I'm entitled to make up my opinion on whether he was a good coach or not. Without experiencing his coaching years first hand, all I have to rely on is fan feedback. Often bitter fans, mad at Avery for not ever winning a Championship for them. Maybe its not Avery they're mad at, maybe its the Mavs in general. But Avery is easy to vent at, and reading their rants is a lot of my understanding of Avery as a coach. And obviously that's not a great primary source information right there.

Point is, its not my intention to go around saying Avery was a bad coach (and this applies to many other things) when I watched probably 20 games with Avery at the helms, all at the end of the 07-08 season.

Well, as someone who watched virtually every game he coached for the Mavericks, let me tell you, yes, he was a bad coach.

BGMaverick9 · 03-04-2009, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Well, as someone who watched virtually every game he coached for the Mavericks, let me tell you, yes, he was a bad coach.

It didn't taking watching as many games as you did to realize he was a bad coach.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-04-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

If Harris was still here dirk would be avg 23 ppg

Not sure how you figure that. I suppose Duncan would be averaging 25 if he had Kidd instead of Parker?

tcat075 · 03-04-2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Well, as someone who watched virtually every game he coached for the Mavericks, let me tell you, yes, he was a bad coach.

That's what I've heard.

He certainly wasn't the greatest thing since Chuck Norris, but he did engineer one of the best Maverick seasons ever and brought the team to an NBA Final.

Its just not something that's easy to take other people's word on.

Dirkgreatness · 03-04-2009, 07:31 PM

Well i still think Avery wasn't that bad of a coach. Hes wasn't a great coach but he wasn't a bad coach either.

NYMAVGUY · 03-04-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

That's what I've heard.

He certainly wasn't the greatest thing since Chuck Norris, but he did engineer one of the best Maverick seasons ever and brought the team to an NBA Final.

Its just not something that's easy to take other people's word on.

Great answer TCAT075

Thespiralgoeson · 03-04-2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

That's what I've heard.

He certainly wasn't the greatest thing since Chuck Norris, but he did engineer one of the best Maverick seasons ever and brought the team to an NBA Final.

Its just not something that's easy to take other people's word on.

It was certainly a controversial issue around here. And to be fair, I'm a bit partisan because I turned on Avery a lot earlier than most other posters here. But as to whether he was good or bad, I can at least give you the objective reasons why I thought he was a poor coach.

First, and most importantly, the guy had absolutely no grasp whatsoever on substitution patterns. He had no idea which players worked together and why. For example, throughout his tenure, he would CONSTANTLY throw out lineups that couldn't score or defend. I can't tell you how many times I screamed at my tv as I watched the starters build a lead, only to have it squandered when Avery would put out a lineup like Anthony Johnson/Stackhouse/George/Croshere/Diop. What was even more infuriating was that he fell in love with small ball. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I honestly believe the 07/08 roster was better than 06/07 (before the trade, of course). I remember at least 8 specific games that we lost because Avery took Dampier out of the game and played Bass at center.

Second, his approach to offense was so simplistic that once any coach figured out that all you had to do was double Dirk, the Mavs were in doomed. What's worse than that is Avery never saw this coming and had no idea how to adjust to it. Riley did in in the finals, and then Nellie did the following year. Not only did Avery not understand any other kind of offense, but he didn't to understand that a few simple kindergarten adjustments might have turned those series' completely around. For example, against Miami and Golden State, the Mavs seemed to completely forget how to set picks, or how to move without the ball, or how to throw an entry pass.

And lastly, it became painfully clear last year that Avery had no idea how to communicate with the team and that the players had just tuned him out. I think the turning point for him was when he won coach of the year. I think he let his early success go to his head, and after that refused to listen to anyone else. Either way, it was obvious that the guy had an enormous ego, and from what I understand the entire organization, not just the players, couldn't stand him anymore.

Frankly I will never understand why Cuban didn't can his ass after Golden State.

Edit: I think there is one thing here all posters can agree on, regardless if how you feel about Avery. His man-crush on Stackhouse was INSANE! I swear, it didn't matter how bad Stackhouse played, Avery would always have him in at the crucial moments of the game.

antoinewalker · 03-04-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

We wouldn't be a single inch closer to the championship if we still had Devin... the guy simply wasn't a good fit here.

we made it to the nba finals with devin.

Windmill360 · 03-04-2009, 07:44 PM

wouldn't it be cool if we had both devin AND Kidd like I asked for?

MaVs 41 BaLler · 03-04-2009, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoinewalker

we made it to the nba finals with devin.

We made it to the finals because the only competition was: Spurs, Suns, and Pistons

Now all those teams are slowly falling apart.....

Thespiralgoeson · 03-04-2009, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windmill360

wouldn't it be cool if we had both devin AND Kidd like I asked for?

Only if we would've traded Kidd's expiring contract for shooting guard or a center that can score. Now that would be cool.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-04-2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

We made it to the finals because the only competition was: Spurs, Suns, and Pistons

Now all those teams are slowly falling apart.....

The Western Conference is definitely tougher than it was in 06, I'll give you that. But I take issue with anyone who thinks that trade didn't make us worse. If we hadn't made a trade, I doubt we'd still be title contenders, but I guarantee you we'd be closer. I mean, we might still be looking for a way to win a championship as opposed to seriously considering trading Dirk and blowing it all up. We'd probably finish this season at our usual 55-win or so pace. I think if we hadn't traded Devin, we might only be one piece away from being back in the title picture, instead of struggling for the 8th seed.

aquaadverse · 03-04-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYMAVGUY

This sounds like the 90's Knicks. They had the Great Star Patrick ewing. The never got a ring cause the never put another great player with him. Jason Kidd and JET were like Larry "grand mama" Johnson and John Starks. Pat reminds me of Dirk. Cuban thinks role players who give you 20 ppg are Stars. John Starks wasn't a star, he was a CBA PLAYER, neither is Jason Terry or Josh Howard for that matter. No other team (maybe 1or 2 would) would treat these players like anything other than role players. Wally Serbiak could give you 20 a night if there's nobody else on the team who could score. And Larry Johnson was past his prime a la Jason Kidd, had a huge contract, a bad back and overnight became a 3 pt shooter! LOL. I laugh now cause it hurt so much back then. The same as this Mavs situation is hurting now. i'm also hurting for dirk, like I did for Pat Ewing. I hope Dirk gets out, because FANS who believe everything is fine, DON"T DESERVE A PLAYER OF HIS CALIBER! They should want to see his career mean something. They should want him to get a ring.
Go Mavs!!! Don't be the 90's Knicks, they always made th playoffs too.

Jordan and the Bulls might have had something to do with it. There were a lot of very good teams during that little double three-peat decade with two stars.

NYMAVGUY · 03-04-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquaadverse

Jordan and the Bulls might have had something to do with it. There were a lot of very good teams during that little double three-peat decade with two stars.

Exactly! Jordan HAD PIPPEN! What did Jordan do b4 THAT! and after that for that matter.

NYMAVGUY · 03-04-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoinewalker

we made it to the nba finals with devin.

and you won 67 games with Devin.

MavsX · 03-04-2009, 09:54 PM

i would much rather have dalmations coach than avery

fluid.forty.one · 03-04-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoinewalker

we made it to the nba finals with devin.

what do you mean *we*?

AxdemxO · 03-05-2009, 12:01 AM

and I believe it was Terry that took us to the finals, he was still out primary pg...but w/e

Mavs have talent...to win..they need the effort..

I cant believe people are still on that Kidd/Harris shit...