Jason Kidd

[sike]

Originally Posted by Underdog

wisdom = old dog learning new tricks

(hopefully Carlisle's ego doesn't keep him from gaining some after that SA series...)

honestly, I would be surprised if Cuban didn't say something about getting Roddy on the floor.


I tend to think that JET needs to go for Roddy to really bloom.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sike

I tend to think that JET needs to go for Roddy to really bloom.

Everyone (including myself) wants JET gone, but his contract makes him pretty much untradable...

Nobody is going to pay him $10mil+/2 seasons to be a bench player, especially not with his skills in major decline.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Underdog

especially not with his skills in major decline.

I'm not sure this is how the league sees him...or that it is even the case.

JT needs to be on a bad team where he can put of big...empty...numbers.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sike

I'm not sure this is how the league sees him...or that it is even the case.

JT needs to be on a bad team where he can put of big...empty...numbers.

Good point.

I still think our best chance to trade him was a year ago when he was riding the 6th Man hype...

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Good point.

I still think our best chance to trade him was a year ago when he was riding the 6th Man hype...

Agreed, but I still don't think anyone would have swallowed that contract...not without the Mavs taking a bad deal.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Agreed, but I still don't think anyone would have swallowed that contract...not without the Mavs taking a bad deal.

I would have been happy to take a bad deal with Mark Cuban's money as long as it netted us a better player...

Hell, we're still looking at the same scenario this summer if we want to trade him...

[IAmDIRK]

The answer is Rodrigue Beaubois - the reason why Tyrke, Steph Curry, Jennings, Russell Westbrook, and D Collison all got so good so fast is because they were given the minutes. Same should go for Rodrigue, he's our future, and he's gotta be given the chance. Let J-Kidd teach him how to be a true PG.

It's not entirely Kidd's fault. The guy's numbers have been just as impressive as ever this year. If aything its Carlisle's fault for not being able to adjust.

[SeriousSummer]

Terry is clearly tradeable--he finished second in the sixth man of the year voting. I'm not sure you would get a lot of value for him, but you never know. Milwaukee brought back Stackhouse to act as its sixth man, Terry is much better (and more expensive).

You could trade Terry to Milwaukee for Gadzuric and Charlie Bell, or to Portland for Przybilla and Fernandez or probably to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich. There are probably a lot of other deals out there. It's just a matter of finding one that makes the Mavs better.

[spreedom]

I might be alone here, but I don't think Kidd is on any sort of real decline -- obviously due to him being a few years past his prime his minutes need to be managed better. I hope that by the heart of next season, we can reduce his playing time to about 32MPG during the regular season so he has fresher legs during the playoffs.

And for God's sake, we need to RUN!!

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

Terry is clearly tradeable--he finished second in the sixth man of the year voting. I'm not sure you would get a lot of value for him, but you never know. Milwaukee brought back Stackhouse to act as its sixth man, Terry is much better (and more expensive).

You could trade Terry to Milwaukee for Gadzuric and Charlie Bell, or to Portland for Przybilla and Fernandez or probably to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich. There are probably a lot of other deals out there. It's just a matter of finding one that makes the Mavs better.

I'd take the Blazers or Bucks trades for sure; however, I doubt Portland would be too interested. I definitely think Milwaukee would do the deal though!

[spreedom]

double post

[Zki41]

I would trade JET for Hinrich, but I doubt Chicago would do it. They have similar contracts, which is a plus. Chicago has been wanting to trade Hinrich as well. I don't think they want JET though .... they have been rumored at looking at trading Heinrich and Deng together for something. They want to trade up, not trade laterally, especially when Hinrich is the better player and younger.

[DirkFTW]

+

=
?????

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by IAmDIRK

The answer is Rodrigue Beaubois - the reason why Tyrke, Steph Curry, Jennings, Russell Westbrook, and D Collison all got so good so fast is because they were given the minutes. Same should go for Rodrigue, he's our future, and he's gotta be given the chance. Let J-Kidd teach him how to be a true PG.

It's not entirely Kidd's fault. The guy's numbers have been just as impressive as ever this year. If aything its Carlisle's fault for not being able to adjust.

Hey, decent first post.

I think most people agree that Roddy needs more minutes, so it will be exciting to see what he brings next season.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by Mavericks Rockets Fan

This must be why he would always flop all the time...

yeah... that flopper Karl Malone was weak as hell too. Pansy fruitcakes the lot of 'em.

[wilmtalk]

I was initially upset that the Mavs signed Kidd to a three year contract because of his libilitys and age. When they drafted Roddy Changed my mind as to his positive to libility trade off for the team. He really needs to be teamed with a quick penitrating guard to not become a libility on the floor. RC often played him as a passing SF with two other guards because of that. That doesn't really work with Terry and JB because they are both defensive libilities themselves. All three are unidimentional players and almost need to be played together to compensate for each others weakness'es.

We have Kidd for two more years and he still can be very use'full if utilized properly. The major problem I see is that during the playoffs where you play another team more than once the other teams have the opportunity to adjust. It seems that Pops and now other teams know how to take advantage of the defensive and offensive libilities that Kidd presents. The Mavs should expect to see those tactics implemented through out the regular season next year. They need to play and develop Roddy to match up with all the other quick points that have entered the league this season. The problems we had with C Paul and Parker we will now face with many more teams.

The concept of Kidd having value as a mentor is a rediculous rationalizaation to justifie his contract. Good players are not always good teachers. All of us can learn what Kidd is good at by watching the games and film. Roddy is a different type of player than Kidd. The abilities that Kidd possseses that make him special can not be taught you are born with them. So just quit this mentor Cr*p.

[SMC0007]

The first post in this thread should say "sucks" then this thread should be locked.

[spreedom]

Wow, I love that one playoff series apparently reduces one of the leading assist men in the league to a waste of a roster spot and the worst player on our team. Get real, folks.

If RC is genuine in his intention to reduce J-Kidd's playing time down to 31-33 MPG, he can have much fresher legs come the playoffs (FYI, if he can reduce his minutes down to even 33 MPG, that would be the equivalent of resting him for almost 7 full 36-minute games over the course of the season). Another huge benefit to us would be if the regular-season seeding was determined with a few games left in the season, because then we could get some rest for Dirk and Kidd. And I think that would make a huge difference in the playoffs, especially if it would allow us to run more against a team like San Antonio.

[SMC0007]

wouldn't matter.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

wouldn't matter.

Thank you for that thought-provoking and thorough reply. Again, you're basing a player's performance on a sample of six games against a white-hot Spurs team that matches up incredibly well with our boys.

Keep Kidd fresh and he'll deliver in the playoffs... no doubt about him.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by spreedom

Thank you for that thought-provoking and thorough reply. Again, you're basing a player's performance on a sample of six games against a white-hot Spurs team that matches up incredibly well with our boys.

Keep Kidd fresh and he'll deliver in the playoffs... no doubt about him.

A sample of the 6 most important games of the entire season. Where he produced very little and did pretty much the same things each time. I have seen enough of him as our starting PG. That is going to be the only way he excels, if his minutes are low and your expectations of him are low. He's just getting old man. I don't see why that is so difficult for folks to understand. It's a fact of life.

[kchan]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

A sample of the 6 most important games of the entire season. Where he produced very little and did pretty much the same things each time. I have seen enough of him as our starting PG. That is going to be the only way he excels, if his minutes are low and your expectations of him are low. He's just getting old man. I don't see why that is so difficult for folks to understand. It's a fact of life.

He IS getting old, which is why we shouldnt burn him for 40min. He is not entirely a complete waste of roster space, IMO I dont think the Mavs would even be in the second seed if it wasnt for him, but seriously, why expect Kidd to be able to guard Parker/Hill/Manu and let him play for more than 40min at his age?

He could still be a very good/solid contributor, whether starting or off the bench. And even if he starts it doesnt mean that he ends the game if he's sucking, or even if he isnt sucking. I have no idea why Rick did this when all can probably see that Kidd seemed fatigued (and generally sucked) out there.

While I do not agree that he is a complete waste, I do however agree that his minutes be more limited, and to play Roddy more. The Kidd-Roddy back court combo was very effective and I have no idea why we did not see more of that in those 6 games you mentioned. He shouldn't ideally play more than 35min a game, and well maybe 40 if he's having one of those good nights, but we need Roddy out there for 40min or more, even if he has to come off the bench and spend 20 at PG and 20 at SG.

[sefant77]

Kidd isnt the problem.

Sure he cant defend certain quick guards anymore but he is versatile enough to defend someone from PG to SF and he is still a smart defender (and great help defender).

And there shouldnt be many teams that have athletic PG/SG/SFs the same time on the floor. So one "weak" spot in defense you can always work with and still play a nice defense, specially if you are very flexible.

What doesnt work is mix Kidd with 1 or 2 another defense liabilities like Terry and Barea. Well, thats an open secret since over 2 years.

Kidd is fine, just play the right people beside him!

Kidd/Roddy/Marion are flexible enough to defend almost any backcourt because Marion can slide down, Kidd can slide up etc.

Kidd with Terry and/or Barea and you have at least 1 or 2 bad matchups in defense.

Roddy should be able to learn the PnR this summer, so i hope the case Barea is anyway closed next season. And i hope he has a good summer so the case Terry will...hmm, wont be a bigger case anymore (=reduced minutes or trade).

Even without a Sammy we can fix our backcourt problem, we need Roddy with a nice summer and a coach that isnt blind or stubborn.

[KINGBEEF]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Kidd isnt the problem.

Sure he cant defend certain quick guards anymore but he is versatile enough to defend someone from PG to SF and he is still a smart defender (and great help defender).

And there shouldnt be many teams that have athletic PG/SG/SFs the same time on the floor. So one "weak" spot in defense you can always work with and still play a nice defense, specially if you are very flexible.

What doesnt work is mix Kidd with 1 or 2 another defense liabilities like Terry and Barea. Well, thats an open secret since over 2 years.

Kidd is fine, just play the right people beside him!

Kidd/Roddy/Marion are flexible enough to defend almost any backcourt because Marion can slide down, Kidd can slide up etc.

Kidd with Terry and/or Barea and you have at least 1 or 2 bad matchups in defense.

Roddy should be able to learn the PnR this summer, so i hope the case Barea is anyway closed next season. And i hope he has a good summer so the case Terry will...hmm, wont be a bigger case anymore (=reduced minutes or trade).

Even without a Sammy we can fix our backcourt problem, we need Roddy with a nice summer and a coach that isnt blind or stubborn.

yeah i agree... I never understood why Carlile would put Roddy in at the point for Kidd. Especially when Roddy plays best at the 2 with Kidd at the point. Hence the Alley-oop to Roddy at least once a game when they were paired up. I just hated when he would have Roddy / Jet / Dirk in at the same time. That's just bad chemistry.

[SMC0007]

I never said he's a waste of roster space and I exaggerate a little when I say he "sucks". I'm not saying he is useless but he couldn't keep up with Parker, couldn't keep up with CP a cpl years ago and thats one major drawback. You expect him to do any better next year? Another is he can't beat anyone off the dribble and doesn't even try it. He doesn't break the defense down near enough even off PnR to justify being the starter here, you think he's gonna do that next year? I can handle him in a back up role for sure, but that is all that is fair to expect from him at 38, thats OLD especially at pg playing against some really young and quick kids with tons of skill.


"Sure he cant defend certain quick guards anymore but he is versatile enough to defend someone from PG to SF and he is still a smart defender (and great help defender). "

Seffant- I don't understand.. he either is good enough to guard PG's or he isn't. Almost all PG's are quick or they wouldn't have a job in the league. Almost all of them can beat Kidd off the dribble too (even Andre Miller). So as long as they suck or are slow and don't run around a lot we can put Kidd on them. At the same time we can't rely on him to play heavy minutes when needed because he gets tired, because hes OLD. That is what we want at starting PG for probably the most important season in the franchises history?

My biggest concern when he is on the floor, is what little he brings offensively, he stands out there and passes around the perimeter without probing the defense and the lane. Then runs around to the other side of the court and waits for a 3 and it has to be wide ass open too.

Worst case scenario could be that we ignore this when re-tooling. At the same time fail to help develop Roddy to the point where he is getting starter minutes. Then Kidd runs out of gas again down the stretch (if thats the excuse were making).. and the Dirk era is over.

I am just praying that Roddy will improve to the point where coach has to start him!

[Underdog]

Who put the "a double dumbass to you!" tag?

Greatness...



/hijack

[wilmtalk]

I agree with those that say that Kidd is still a valuable asset to the Mavs. The problem is that with either JJB or Terry on the team and getting extensive min it often makes him a libility. Those that say that quick points are not a major problem just need to consider the large influx of rookie points who dominated the league this year. They will be around for some time. Kidd at this point in his career playes more like a shooting guard that is an excellent passer. Often he plays better at the small forward position when JJb is brought in for his driving ability and scoring punch along with Terry. Terry while being an asset when he is hot really hurts when he is not. What we have with the three of them is unidemetional players that need to be on the floor with each other to compensate for each others short comings. When they all play well it works but not if they are not shooting well.

The question that needs to be asked in the case of Kidd is when do his shortcomings and the teams having to compensate for them become more of a libility than what he brings to the table? I think that teams have been figuring out how to negate Kidds assets by playing on his libilities during playoff series. It was just not this last series that Kidd had problems. Last year he also did not play well. The question needs to be ask-- Do we adjust the team to Kidd or does Kidd have to fullfill a role for the team. Is he so valuable that the team does everything posible to keep him on the floor? I don't think he is that valuable. The only player that valuable right now is Dirk.

[KINGBEEF]

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

I agree with those that say that Kidd is still a valuable asset to the Mavs. The problem is that with either JJB or Terry on the team and getting extensive min it often makes him a libility. Those that say that quick points are not a major problem just need to consider the large influx of rookie points who dominated the league this year. They will be around for some time. Kidd at this point in his career playes more like a shooting guard that is an excellent passer. Often he plays better at the small forward position when JJb is brought in for his driving ability and scoring punch along with Terry. Terry while being an asset when he is hot really hurts when he is not. What we have with the three of them is unidemetional players that need to be on the floor with each other to compensate for each others short comings. When they all play well it works but not if they are not shooting well.

The question that needs to be asked in the case of Kidd is when do his shortcomings and the teams having to compensate for them become more of a libility than what he brings to the table? I think that teams have been figuring out how to negate Kidds assets by playing on his libilities during playoff series. It was just not this last series that Kidd had problems. Last year he also did not play well. The question needs to be ask-- Do we adjust the team to Kidd or does Kidd have to fullfill a role for the team. Is he so valuable that the team does everything posible to keep him on the floor? I don't think he is that valuable. The only player that valuable right now is Dirk.

The way I see it, Kidd needs and should retire as a Maverick. Case and point, he's what every point guard should mimic. Looks to pass first and can hit the open jumper if needed. He always hustles on defense (STEALS AND REBOUNDS). Triple Double Legend for sure

[DirkFTW]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Who put the "a double dumbass to you!" tag?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a43kowi2ncI

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by KINGBEEF

The way I see it, Kidd needs and should retire as a Maverick. Case and point, he's what every point guard should mimic. Looks to pass first and can hit the open jumper if needed. He always hustles on defense (STEALS AND REBOUNDS). Triple Double Legend for sure

Where were those stats in the last 3 playoff years for the mavs? Once the game slows down, so does Kidd. He needs to be on a fastbreak team with slashers. Roddy suits his style but that is about it.

[Bathouse Bear]

The first post in this thread should say "sucks" then this thread should be locked.

+1

I never said he's a waste of roster space and I exaggerate a little when I say he "sucks". I'm not saying he is useless but he couldn't keep up with Parker, couldn't keep up with CP a cpl years ago and thats one major drawback. You expect him to do any better next year? Another is he can't beat anyone off the dribble and doesn't even try it. He doesn't break the defense down near enough even off PnR to justify being the starter here, you think he's gonna do that next year? I can handle him in a back up role for sure, but that is all that is fair to expect from him at 38, thats OLD especially at pg playing against some really young and quick kids with tons of skill.


"Sure he cant defend certain quick guards anymore but he is versatile enough to defend someone from PG to SF and he is still a smart defender (and great help defender). "

Seffant- I don't understand.. he either is good enough to guard PG's or he isn't. Almost all PG's are quick or they wouldn't have a job in the league. Almost all of them can beat Kidd off the dribble too (even Andre Miller). So as long as they suck or are slow and don't run around a lot we can put Kidd on them. At the same time we can't rely on him to play heavy minutes when needed because he gets tired, because hes OLD. That is what we want at starting PG for probably the most important season in the franchises history?

My biggest concern when he is on the floor, is what little he brings offensively, he stands out there and passes around the perimeter without probing the defense and the lane. Then runs around to the other side of the court and waits for a 3 and it has to be wide ass open too.

Worst case scenario could be that we ignore this when re-tooling. At the same time fail to help develop Roddy to the point where he is getting starter minutes. Then Kidd runs out of gas again down the stretch (if thats the excuse were making).. and the Dirk era is over.

I am just praying that Roddy will improve to the point where coach has to start him!

Mavericks fans (especially on this board) are too stupid to realize any of this.

Then these same Kidd fans have this absolute sense of amazement when the Mavs get bounced out of the playoffs while Kidd averages his 9 points and 7 assists and look for why this team got its ass kicked in the playoffs once again.

Wow, I love that one playoff series apparently reduces one of the leading assist men in the league to a waste of a roster spot and the worst player on our team. Get real, folks.

One????????????????????????????????????

That is how Jason Kidd has performed in every playoff series in a Mavs uniform. He completely shrinks and disappears when the playoffs start.

[Mavericks Rockets Fan]

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Mavericks fans (especially on this board) are too stupid to realize any of this.

This is, in fact, not the case. You might even say that it's the exact opposite.

[KINGBEEF]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Where were those stats in the last 3 playoff years for the mavs? Once the game slows down, so does Kidd. He needs to be on a fastbreak team with slashers. Roddy suits his style but that is about it.

Good question. Now that's not one I can answer. i believe Kidd may have to explain that. Honestly my first guest would be to say that the coaching staff wants him to play a certain way but, that would be a cop-out.

[Kidd Karma]

Kobe has Pau, Boston has the Big 3, those are your champions the last 2 years. Dirk has no one, Butler proved that he isn't it. We have Dirk and several cast members, there is no co-stars alongside Dirk.

A great point was made that this is Kidd's 2nd best regular season record in his career. I think Kidd teams have always lacked a 2nd viable scorer. Basically a residue of having a salary cap. If your PG is pulling in 20 mill a year, it's hard to build a team around him, thus the lack of top PG's winning championships consistently since Magic and Zeke did it in the 80's.

Kidd's minutes has to be managed next year, RC has to stick to his guns, just like how Sloan managed Stockton's 24 minutes a night his last seasons. I still think this team is one star away from competing on the biggest stage a combo pack of Butler and Damp should be a good drawing card in a sign and trade for Bosh. I'd try to resign Haywood. Now if isn't biting, then I'd see if JJ's interested in a similar sign and trade package.

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by KINGBEEF

The way I see it, Kidd needs and should retire as a Maverick. Case and point, he's what every point guard should mimic. Looks to pass first and can hit the open jumper if needed. He always hustles on defense (STEALS AND REBOUNDS). Triple Double Legend for sure

I don't think Kidd retiring as a Mav will be a problem. The problem is will he still be playing major min and be a focal point of the offense. This team is not about Jason Kidd although a lot of you think everything is about Jason Kidd and to h#ll with the team. We shouldn't get rid of him ( I actually think we couldn't get rid of him if we tryed). His outside shooting has improved because teams lay off of him to double Dirk. That is why him and the other jump shooters do well. But when they don't hit their shots we go down in a flaming mess. He along with Terry need to be play when the are assets to the team. Meaning they have to be playing well. When they are not they should sit. It should not be that we need to have them on the floor irrigardless. Hoping that they will get it together. We need to have other options available when they don't produce. Terry is very one dimentional. Kidd is more dimentional but still becomes a libility when one aspect of his game doesn't work. Too many of you are in love with Kidd to see things objectively.