General NBA watching thread. 2009 - 2010 edition. - Page 31 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dalger · 05-05-2010, 10:58 PM

The Suns are simply taking care of business and playing pretty much according to their talent level. The good thing for them is that it's not just been Nash, Stoudemire and Richardson. Tonight they also got great performances from Hill and Frye. When your three best players deliver constantly and you have some other guys stepping up occasionally, the Spurs are certainly beatable.

We never managed to do that with guys like JET, Kidd, Marion or Damp struggling throughout the series and we also didn't protect homecourt.

However, it'll be interesting to see how the Spurs react at home. They can beat the Suns and both games in Phoenix were fairly close, so this series is far from over. George Hill will have to do exactly what he did against us for the Spurs to win this thing, and that's playing big at the AT&T Center.

ghazi · 05-06-2010, 12:02 AM

The Suns offense is SOOOOOO much better than the Mavs offense..

CadBane · 05-06-2010, 12:21 AM

No. Just no. JRich is a SUPERIOR three point shooter to Butler. Butler's game is based on isolation mid-range jumpers. Butler would not even come close to outmatching his production.

KINGBEEF · 05-06-2010, 01:48 AM

Butler plays better defense than J-Rich. Honestly he's more athletic than Butler, but he gets in to foul trouble ten times faster than Butler does.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2010, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

No. Just no. JRich is a SUPERIOR three point shooter to Butler. Butler's game is based on isolation mid-range jumpers. Butler would not even come close to outmatching his production.

Wasn't your original point that J-Rich is a vastly superior offensive player to Butler (actually, you didn't even limit to just offense)? Despite the fact that Butler averaged more points and assists this year playing in two inferior offensive systems with slower pace? And now you're trying to establish that by noting that J-Rich shoots the three better? Interesting approach.

On second thought, man, that conclusory stuff is just so hot. Let me try that instead: No. Just no. You're wrong. I'm right. Butler is much better than J-Rich.

...did I do it right?

CadBane · 05-06-2010, 05:10 PM

Hey, maybe you're into volume scorers. I like guys who can score efficiently.

For the season:
JRich- 47%/39%
Butler- 42%(44% w/ us)/26% (34%)

Not to mention the absurd playoff differences (where JRich just straight sodomizes him).

But like I said, maybe you prefer inefficient volume scorers.

And are you really trying to argue on the raw numbers?

JRich: 16/5/2
Butler: 16/6/2

So Butler's ONE more rebound makes him better despite being a flat out inferior shooter? Okay.

mavsfan1000 · 05-06-2010, 08:23 PM

JRich>Butler. I hate Butler's style of game. All iso and not being effective off the ball. I'm a fan of players that move well without the ball and Jason Richardson has proven he can do this. He helps the spacing better by being better with the 3 point shot. His defense is underrated as well.

ribosoma · 05-06-2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Hey, maybe you're into volume scorers. I like guys who can score efficiently.

For the season:
JRich- 47%/39%
Butler- 42%(44% w/ us)/26% (34%)

Not to mention the absurd playoff differences (where JRich just straight sodomizes him).

But like I said, maybe you prefer inefficient volume scorers.

And are you really trying to argue on the raw numbers?

JRich: 16/5/2
Butler: 16/6/2

So Butler's ONE more rebound makes him better despite being a flat out inferior shooter? Okay.

Butler is also a 3 playing 2. Richardson is a 2 playing his natural position. Different positions, different styles. I'd love to have them both, btw. I've always liked Richardson's game.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2010, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Hey, maybe you're into volume scorers. I like guys who can score efficiently.

For the season:
JRich- 47%/39%
Butler- 42%(44% w/ us)/26% (34%)

Not to mention the absurd playoff differences (where JRich just straight sodomizes him).

But like I said, maybe you prefer inefficient volume scorers.

And are you really trying to argue on the raw numbers?

JRich: 16/5/2
Butler: 16/6/2

So Butler's ONE more rebound makes him better despite being a flat out inferior shooter? Okay.

It says a lot about the quality of your argument that you inexplicably felt the need to round down from one decimal place to none. No, they are not 16/16. Butler is 16.3. J-Rich is 15.7. Is that a huge difference? Of course not. But how hilarious that you thought you would just go ahead and represent them as having the exact same number.

And I would most certainly appreciate it if you would respond to what I actually said and not just whatever the hell you feel like. I didn't say I "preferred" Butler. You said "J-Rich>>>>Butler," as if to say that J-Rich was in some entirely different plane, which is of course totally ridiculous. The fact is, you resorted to hyperbole, as you frequently do, and you've got absolutely nothing to back it up.

If you want to make an argument actually grounded in the numbers, you could say that he is somewhat better on the basis of better shooting numbers, not that he's far and away the better player. And even that is suspect, considering that J-Rich's numbers are inflated by getting to play in a very well-designed offense with Nash. He shot 44.6% in 2005-2006 and 41.7% in 2006-2007 with the Warriors, and is 44.2% overall in his career, so don't act like he has some career-long history of super efficient shooting. He's much better than Butler at the three ball. That's about it.

ghazi · 05-06-2010, 09:31 PM

I don't think the Suns necessarily have more weapons, they just have much better ball movement and shooting. over 40% from the arc for a team is incredible. Their PnR game is perfect.

J-Rich is not much better than Butler, if at all. And Hill > Marion is a laughable claim. Nash is much better for a teams offense than Kidd though. Their bench is better too. I think Nash has been on the best offensive team in the league for now 8 straight years, dating back to his days with Dallas.

Barbosa went from 30+ minutes for that team to hardly playing a role and it hasn't hurt them much. What happened to him is probably what needs to happen to Terry.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

J-Rich is not much better than Butler, if at all. And Hill > Marion is a laughable claim.

Nah bro, you're wrong. I said so, so you must be. You clearly don't know anything about the game of basketball. But maybe that's your thing--you know, being an idiot.

CadBane · 05-06-2010, 09:53 PM

Generally in math, if it's below .5 you round down, and above .5 you round up...

CadBane · 05-06-2010, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It says a lot about the quality of your argument that you inexplicably felt the need to round down from one decimal place to none. No, they are not 16/16. Butler is 16.3. J-Rich is 15.7. Is that a huge difference? Of course not. But how hilarious that you thought you would just go ahead and represent them as having the exact same number.

And I would most certainly appreciate it if you would respond to what I actually said and not just whatever the hell you feel like. I didn't say I "preferred" Butler. You said "J-Rich>>>>Butler," as if to say that J-Rich was in some entirely different plane, which is of course totally ridiculous. The fact is, you resorted to hyperbole, as you frequently do, and you've got absolutely nothing to back it up.

If you want to make an argument actually grounded in the numbers, you could say that he is somewhat better on the basis of better shooting numbers, not that he's far and away the better player. And even that is suspect, considering that J-Rich's numbers are inflated by getting to play in a very well-designed offense with Nash. He shot 44.6% in 2005-2006 and 41.7% in 2006-2007 with the Warriors, and is 44.2% overall in his career, so don't act like he has some career-long history of super efficient shooting. He's much better than Butler at the three ball. That's about it.

Does Nash get credit for JRich shooting 41% and 46% from three with the Charlotte Bobcats?

CadBane · 05-06-2010, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

I don't think the Suns necessarily have more weapons, they just have much better ball movement and shooting. over 40% from the arc for a team is incredible. Their PnR game is perfect.

J-Rich is not much better than Butler, if at all. And Hill > Marion is a laughable claim. Nash is much better for a teams offense than Kidd though. Their bench is better too. I think Nash has been on the best offensive team in the league for now 8 straight years, dating back to his days with Dallas.

Barbosa went from 30+ minutes for that team to hardly playing a role and it hasn't hurt them much. What happened to him is probably what needs to happen to Terry.

How is Hill over Marion laughable?

Hill: 11/6/2/1 steal on 48/44 shooting
Marion: 12/6/1/1 steal on 51/16 shooting

Sure Marion is a better defender, but the gap isn't as huge as you'd think. Hill is a good defender as well. Also, Hill has the ability to score via isolation and can actual go one on one vs. his man.

Not to mention, of course, Hill has been better in the playoffs.

You can argue Marion is better (I disagree). But to call it laughable, is, well, laughable. You need to take off the homer glasses.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2010, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Generally in math, if it's below .5 you round down, and above .5 you round up...

Yeah, nice try. You round when there's a legitimate reason to round. There was no legitimate reason to round from a measly one decimal place to none. You did so to make it appear as if their points and assists numbers were perfectly identical, when really Butler was ahead in both. He wasn't ahead by much, so it doesn't say too much about the substance of the debate, but it says a lot about your intentions and your method of argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Does Nash get credit for JRich shooting 41% and 46% from three with the Charlotte Bobcats?

Irrelevant. I very clearly stated and agreed that J-Rich is a much superior three-point shooter, so there is no debate there. But that is in fact the only thing to which you can reasonably point to support the notion that he is ">>>>" Butler, which clearly is not enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

But to call it laughable, is, well, laughable.

Pot, kettle.

mavsfan1000 · 05-06-2010, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

I don't think the Suns necessarily have more weapons, they just have much better ball movement and shooting. over 40% from the arc for a team is incredible. Their PnR game is perfect.

J-Rich is not much better than Butler, if at all. And Hill > Marion is a laughable claim. Nash is much better for a teams offense than Kidd though. Their bench is better too. I think Nash has been on the best offensive team in the league for now 8 straight years, dating back to his days with Dallas.

Barbosa went from 30+ minutes for that team to hardly playing a role and it hasn't hurt them much. What happened to him is probably what needs to happen to Terry.

At least Hill has some offensive game. Marion has none. Hill was clutch in that first game against the spurs. Something the spurs aren't used to with Marion choking it up historically for the Suns.

chumdawg · 05-06-2010, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Pot, kettle.

Ah...I think we've turned it around 360 degrees!

Quote:

Irrelevant. I very clearly stated and agreed that J-Rich is a much superior three-point shooter, so there is no debate there. But that is in fact the only thing to which you can reasonably point to support the notion that he is ">>>>" Butler, which clearly is not enough.

The one thing I will say for J-Rich is that he has been a Mavs killer over the course of his career, and often on our own home court. If he could play every game at the AAC, he'd be an All-Star.

As for the comparison between him and Butler, I think it's apples and oranges because I think J-Rich is a pure 2 and Butler is a 3 or at best a swingman...but if it's apples to apples and they are both 2's? It used to be the case that two guards are a dime a dozen, so take the difference with a grain of salt.

Not sure if it's that way much anymore, because the "pure" two guard seems to be an aging animal in today's NBA.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2010, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Ah...I think we've turned it around 360 degrees!

The one thing I will say for J-Rich is that he has been a Mavs killer over the course of his career, and often on our own home court. If he could play every game at the AAC, he'd be an All-Star.

As for the comparison between him and Butler, I think it's apples and oranges because I think J-Rich is a pure 2 and Butler is a 3 or at best a swingman...but if it's apples to apples and they are both 2's? It used to be the case that two guards are a dime a dozen, so take the difference with a grain of salt.

Not sure if it's that way much anymore, because the "pure" two guard seems to be an aging animal in today's NBA.

I'll never forget this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkAZeLmcfdY

chumdawg · 05-06-2010, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'll never forget this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkAZeLmcfdY

To give props where they are due, you have to credit Jason Terry there for a near-pristine ol-ay act.

CadBane · 05-06-2010, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Yeah, nice try. You round when there's a legitimate reason to round. There was no legitimate reason to round from a measly one decimal place to none. You did so to make it appear as if their points and assists numbers were perfectly identical, when really Butler was ahead in both. He wasn't ahead by much, so it doesn't say too much about the substance of the debate, but it says a lot about your intentions and your method of argument.

Irrelevant. I very clearly stated and agreed that J-Rich is a much superior three-point shooter, so there is no debate there. But that is in fact the only thing to which you can reasonably point to support the notion that he is ">>>>" Butler, which clearly is not enough.

Pot, kettle.

Dude, I ALWAYS round stats like that. Regardless of the argument. Most people do. Most people say, "He averages 25 and 10." They don't say "He averages 25.3 and 9.8."

LonghornDub · 05-07-2010, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Dude, I ALWAYS round stats like that. Regardless of the argument. Most people do. Most people say, "He averages 25 and 10." They don't say "He averages 25.3 and 9.8."

Understood, and it's entirely appropriate in most conversations. When it's not appropriate is when I have explicitly made the point that Butler averages more in both categories, and you directly respond to that point by rounding the numbers to make it appear as though they actually average the same.

CadBane · 05-07-2010, 01:34 AM

Well I don't consider .6 PPG worth mentioning. I wasn't trying to imply he didn't average more points, because obviously he technically averages less. But the point is it's a negligible amount that's not worth mentioning, let alone outweighing the shooting differences.

sefant77 · 05-07-2010, 03:47 AM

James is such an annoying every headline searching drama queen.

Now this ellbow drama in Paul Pierce style and nba.com is of course jumping on it like a horny virgin.

And Gino plays with a broken noise.

I hate that guy. The sad thing he wouldnt need, he has enough headlines anyway...

Fidel · 05-07-2010, 10:44 PM

Nice exchange between the espn announcers:

"So what do you think Barbosa did there"

"Fouling Duncans ellbow with his face"

Refs are trying hard. But the Suns look good (end of 3rd).

CadBane · 05-07-2010, 10:47 PM

JRich is now 11-19 on threes vs. SA and 33-61 in the playoffs. He's not any better than Butler though.

CadBane · 05-07-2010, 10:49 PM

Dragic & Barbosa is such a nice backcourt to have off the bench. The Suns are loaded. Anyone that doesn't think they have a superior roster is a pure and unmitigated homer. Notice how Phoenix can actually extend a lead (rather than dissolve) with their star on the bench?

Oh, and Hill is shooting 56% for the series against the same Spurs team Marion shot, what, 38% against? But Matrix is obviously better.

CadBane · 05-07-2010, 10:56 PM

Dragic just crushed the Spurs singlehandedly. JJB is just as good though.

Windmill360 · 05-07-2010, 11:03 PM

F'ing suns know how to fight.

Fidel · 05-07-2010, 11:04 PM

Dragic killing the Spurs. Gotta love it.

CadBane · 05-07-2010, 11:05 PM

Goran Dragic did in that 4th quarter what NO Mavs guard could dream of doing (except maybe that French dude that rides the pine...I'm sure Dragic would ride the pine under RC too.)

chumdawg · 05-07-2010, 11:11 PM

Phoenix is just strong, strong, strong. Wow.

Windmill360 · 05-07-2010, 11:14 PM

GO F YOURSELVES SPURS

twelli · 05-07-2010, 11:18 PM

The Spurs had no answer for Dragic, they had no answer for Beaubois. Damn, Carlisle...

Windmill360 · 05-07-2010, 11:20 PM

but Dragic isn't a rookie.

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 05-07-2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twelli

The Spurs had no answer for Dragic, they had no answer for Beaubois. Damn, Carlisle...

That is the frustrating part...

CadBane · 05-07-2010, 11:27 PM

Dragic is just a second year player though. Only 55 games his rookie year.

twelli · 05-07-2010, 11:32 PM

The 4th quarter started with the Spurs up by one, and the Suns' second unit took the lead and pushed it to double digits with Manu, Parker and Duncan on the floor. Wow!

Man, we really sucked.

Fidel · 05-07-2010, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twelli

The 4th quarter started with the Spurs up by one, and the Suns' second unit took the lead and pushed it to double digits with Manu, Parker and Duncan on the floor. Wow!

Man, we really sucked.

Well it was the high pick n roll that the Spurs couldn´t defend all game. If Terry had been anywhere near his best we would have probably beat the Spurs. I blame Carlisle for not trying the same with Roddy.

Dragic was out of his mind today, but he´s been a solid player all year with 8 pts, 3 ast, 40% 3pt, in 18 minutes.

dalger · 05-08-2010, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Dragic & Barbosa is such a nice backcourt to have off the bench. The Suns are loaded. Anyone that doesn't think they have a superior roster is a pure and unmitigated homer. Notice how Phoenix can actually extend a lead (rather than dissolve) with their star on the bench?

Oh, and Hill is shooting 56% for the series against the same Spurs team Marion shot, what, 38% against? But Matrix is obviously better.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to imply. No one said that Phoenix wasn't a good team and it became more and more clear as the regular season went by that their team is indeed deep with guys like Dudley, Frye, Dragic and to an extent Barbosa and Amundson constantly coming off the bench and being quite productive.

However, Barbosa and Dragic haven't set the world on fire in this series so far. Praising them to the skies in light of the Suns' success and our failure is easy but Dragic was 2-12 in the first two games while Barbosa scored a combined 8 points in game 1 and 2. They clearly had a great game tonight, though. As far as Marion is concerned, you can certainly make the point that Hill is the better player RIGHT NOW and in THIS YEAR'S playoffs. That said, I still prefer Marion on our team and think that he isn't any worse than Grant Hill at this stage in their careers. In fact, I think that Marion is the better player overall.

The NBA, with so many teams being really talented and having a lot of potential, is all about momentum and playing at a high level at the right time. We didn't do that in the first round (take Marion's numbers as an example). The Suns are playing at a high level and some of their guys are not only playing according to their regular season level, no, they play even better (take Hill's numbers as an example).

In the end, Phoenix doesn't have a better team than Dallas or Denver. The Suns are simply in a position (and somewhat lucky) to have many players contribute at the perfect time. They're almost overachieving while we did the exact opposite.

Underdog · 05-08-2010, 12:16 AM

Suns/Magic Finals...

Duck Favid Stern.