Offseason 2010 Thread

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by Rick41

That's why I said for defensive purposes. With Dirk and Bosh guarding the rim, it's going to be a layup drill.

and with Gortat on the floor we will be playing 4 on 5 offensivly

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Chris Paul is a little doughy and will never be in the dunk contest either so I'm not sure that's the best measure of a young PG's potential. If it were Nate Robinson would be starting for someone. Leaping ability is nice but it's not nearly as important as speed and the ability to start and stop on a dime. Both players have that but unlike Beabous nobody questions Lawson's ability to run the point. I like our guy but the jury is still out on who will be the better player.

i understand your point and no one would take Tom Chambers over Larry Bird, Rex Chapman over Chris Mullin,etc. because they jump higher. i'm not saying that.
but i don't think there's a GM in the league who takes Lawson over Roddy right now. Roddy's rawness is part of his appeal. it's possible he's only scratched the surface. he's still learning the english language! whereas Ty is going to make some small and steady tweaks to his game. mostly improving decision making and thru repetition.
Roddy has the wingspan, athleticism, quickness, speed, frame, confidence and shooting touch to be special.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by mavs777

and with Gortat on the floor we will be playing 4 on 5 offensivly

Gortat has a decent jumper. if given starters minutes he would develop confidence in it.

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by mavs777

and with Gortat on the floor we will be playing 4 on 5 offensivly

The Mavs are like that as it is. I didn't know Damps offensive skills were that enough to throw Gortat under the bus.

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by sike

Tyson Chandler is lame

+1. Speaking of a center with absolutely zero offensive ability outside the lob dunk. I'll throw up (no pun intended) if the Mavs trade for Chandler.

[xrobx]

Originally Posted by mavs777

and with Gortat on the floor we will be playing 4 on 5 offensivly

it would still be 5 on 5, dirk counts as 2 offensive players.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I don't think Bosh is a good fit. I said so above. However, he is so much better than either of those players that, yes, it does make him a better fit than either of them. If the talent gap is big enough and your options are limited, you take the best player and don't worry about fit.

Talent gap... it's not that big.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by mavs777

and with Gortat on the floor we will be playing 4 on 5 offensivly

There is a difference between Damp and Gortat if you wanna just look at it as backup centers. You really don't run set plays for either player. For Gortat, you don't need to because he can easily do damage on the boards and get put-back dunks or tip ins. His most effect set play is obviously the pick and roll. With Damp, you can't run plays for him because of his brick hands. The inability to catch the F'n ball kills any chance for him to get the ball.

[Thomas86]

Paying Haywood 10 mill<<<<<<<<<<<<<Tyson Chandler

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Talent gap... it's not that big.

Yes, yes it is. Bosh is an all-star, and one of the better all-stars. Jefferson is an above-average player who happens to be the best player on a freaking terrible team, and Gortat is a benchwarming, unproven guy with some nice physical tools. They're not even in the same stratosphere as Bosh.

[Bayliss]

What scares me the most about Jefferson is that he has "lead" some incredibly sh*tty teams. He is a double double every night, but so? He rarely wins basketball games. (IMO he has a Zach Randolph/Shareef Abdur Rahim/Antoine Walker in him in that it is all about him instead of trying to win the game.)

Of course, Bosh hasn't just been "carrying" his team that far either. But his track record is a lot better.

[LSMF]

Well it seems like everyone has set their minds on Bosh. Thing is he's not coming here.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Yes, yes it is. Bosh is an all-star, and one of the better all-stars. Jefferson is an above-average player who happens to be the best player on a freaking terrible team, and Gortat is a benchwarming, unproven guy with some nice physical tools. They're not even in the same stratosphere as Bosh.

Bosh is one of the better all-stars.. huh? Ok so fans voted for him to play in the all star game. Bosh and Jefferson are comparable, Jefferson had a slightly down year but had a better year before than Bosh, I mean the gap isn't as big as you claim. Besides, how does any of that prove that Bosh would be a better fit here than Jefferson??

We already have a better version of Bosh in Dirk. For shitsngigles, if it come down to the two I might prefer big Al because he brings an element that we are missing, at least offensively. Now defensively neither one will shine and we would need a decent back up but, Bosh would probably be worse defensively because he is a lightweight. Jefferson actually has some size to bang in the paint with.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by Rick41

The Mavs are like that as it is. I didn't know Damps offensive skills were that enough to throw Gortat under the bus.

What does it have to do with Damp? We are looking for a considerable upgrade at C, Gortat could very well turn into Diop at the very best he turns into Haywood who Bosh is much better than

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Yes, yes it is. Bosh is an all-star, and one of the better all-stars. Jefferson is an above-average player who happens to be the best player on a freaking terrible team, and Gortat is a benchwarming, unproven guy with some nice physical tools. They're not even in the same stratosphere as Bosh.

this

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Bosh is one of the better all-stars.. huh? Ok so fans voted for him to play in the all star game. Bosh and Jefferson are comparable, Jefferson had a slightly down year but had a better year before than Bosh, I mean the gap isn't as big as you claim. Besides, how does any of that prove that Bosh would be a better fit here than Jefferson??

We already have a better version of Bosh in Dirk. For shitsngigles, if it come down to the two I might prefer big Al because he brings an element that we are missing, at least offensively. Now defensively neither one will shine and we would need a decent back up but, Bosh would probably be worse defensively because he is a lightweight. Jefferson actually has some size to bang in the paint with.

Um, fans didn't vote Bosh to play in the ASG. He was a reserve. Reserves are selected by the coaches. And yes, he was absolutely one of the better allstars. Do you want me to post the list? Here's just the East team, for your consideration:

Allen Iverson
Dwyane Wade
LeBron James
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard

Joe Johnson
Rajon Rondo
Derrick Rose
Paul Pierce
Gerald Wallace
Chris Bosh
Al Horford
David Lee

How many guys on that list were better than Bosh this year? I'm thinking maybe four, arguably five.

Al Jefferson plays no D whatsoever. I'm wondering how many times you've watched him and Bosh play, respectively, if you think they're all that close in terms of ability. I absolutely agree that Bosh isn't a good fit because Dirk plays the same position, but he is a much better player than Jefferson.

Again, you're talking about an allstar and Olympic gold medalist versus an above-average big man who is the best player on a crappy team.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Um, fans didn't vote Bosh to play in the ASG. He was a reserve. Reserves are selected by the coaches. And yes, he was absolutely one of the better allstars. Do you want me to post the list? Here's just the East team, for your consideration:

Allen Iverson
Dwyane Wade
LeBron James
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard

Joe Johnson
Rajon Rondo
Derrick Rose
Paul Pierce
Gerald Wallace
Chris Bosh
Al Horford
David Lee

How many guys on that list were better than Bosh this year? I'm thinking maybe four, arguably five.

Al Jefferson plays no D whatsoever. I'm wondering how many times you've watched him and Bosh play, respectively, if you think they're all that close in terms of ability. I absolutely agree that Bosh isn't a good fit because Dirk plays the same position, but he is a much better player than Jefferson.

Again, you're talking about an allstar and Olympic gold medalist versus an above-average big man who is the best player on a crappy team.

You are wasting your time with who is better and by how much. Still doesn't prove that Bosh is a better fit here than Jefferson.

[mavs777]

Simple stats:
When Gortat was on the floor Orlando was -7.8 points per 100 possessions worse than they were when he was off it (this includes offense and defense)
When Bosh was on the floor Toronto was 6 points per 100 possessions better than when he was off the floor (includes both offense and defense, in fact Toronto was actually better defensively when he was on the floor)
When AL Jefferson was on the floor Minnessotta was 2.4 points per 100 possessions worse than if he was off it. While Jefferson isn't near Bosh I would say this is a bit misleading as him and Love didn't work well together

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

You are wasting your time with who is better and by how much. Still doesn't prove that Bosh is a better fit here than Jefferson.

both of there best positions are PF your point?

[Underdog]

Chris Bosh is a 4... Al Jefferson is a 4... Dirk Nowitzki is a 4...

We need a 5...


$10mil/year is too much for Haywood, $6mil/year is perfect...

Dirk just saved the team $4mil/year...

[xrobx]

i'd rather have shaq than either of them, at least he's a center

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Chris Bosh is a 4... Al Jefferson is a 4... Dirk Nowitzki is a 4...

We need a 5...


$10mil/year is too much for Haywood, $6mil/year is perfect...

Dirk just saved the team $4mil/year...

Wait a second...you lost me

[sike]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Al Jefferson plays no D whatsoever. I'm wondering how many times you've watched him and Bosh play, respectively, if you think they're all that close in terms of ability.

Honestly, I wonder how many people on this forum have watched Jefferson OR Both with any regularity.

Neither are ideal alongside Dirk...but Bosh isn't an option...or won't be soon...and Jefferson may be.


Unless they pull a trade that we thrown on the wall yet, a LIKE Jefferson is going to what is available to the Mavs...and Cuban IS going to do something. The same team is not coming back.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

What scares me the most about Jefferson is that he has "lead" some incredibly sh*tty teams. He is a double double every night, but so? He rarely wins basketball games. (IMO he has a Zach Randolph/Shareef Abdur Rahim/Antoine Walker in him in that it is all about him instead of trying to win the game.)

Of course, Bosh hasn't just been "carrying" his team that far either. But his track record is a lot better.

Bosh has had significantly better supporting casts...plus the Pups are a ridiculous mess.

I think Both is a better player, but to judge Jefferson by the mess that is the TPups isn't fair.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by mavs777

both of there best positions are PF your point?

If your going to be involved, is it too hard to go back and catch up real quick?

I would obviously rather have a legit center as well

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by sike

Honestly, I wonder how many people on this forum have watched Jefferson OR Both with any regularity.

Neither are ideal alongside Dirk...but Bosh isn't an option...or won't be soon...and Jefferson may be.


Unless they pull a trade that we thrown on the wall yet, a LIKE Jefferson is going to what is available to the Mavs...and Cuban IS going to do something. The same team is not coming back.

I have watched both play numerous times. I wouldn't be proud of what Al would bring defensively, the only thing he may have a leg up on Bosh is the extra weight for holding his own in the paint vs other low post threats. I never said he was a good defender.

[Underdog]

Bosh - not the best fit, but it's a no-brainer if you can get him... Work out the defensive deficiencies that pairing him with Dirk would present later...

Jefferson - if you can add him to last year's team without losing anything, you just got a lot better (but personally, I'd find more creative ways to spend my money...)

[tcat075]

Bosh isn't coming here.

But I like that the Mavericks are trying to get him. Look, I get that he's an average defender at best, but if we're moving forwards three steps offensively and moving back one step defensively...doesn't that give us a positive net gain?

Bosh is a very, very good offensive player. He shoots jumpers, but half of his shots come at the basket. To call him "just a bad jump shooter" is garbage. He's not just a jump shooter, and when he does shoot them, he shoots them at about a 44% clip. Dirk, from that same 10-23 foot area, shoots 45%.

So what do we have? A player who scored 24 ppg last year in a multitude of different ways, who is extremely efficient (52% FG), who can get to the line (8.4 a game) and shoots them well from there (about 80%), and we have people bitching about the hypothetical thought of him coming here.

I'm not going to say he's a perfect fit. Clearly, Bosh is not a perfect all around player. But he's a good one. Very good. How many "very good" players do we honestly expect to have a shot at this free agency. If James or Wade or Johnson or whoever was on their knees begging to come here, then this would be totally different. They aren't, and so if we got Bosh, he might not fit as well as hoped, but with his talent, he would improve the team. And that's what the point is, isn't it? Improving the team. If we're so scared of bringing in players at positions we already have starters at, then why the Chris Paul talk? Oh, right, because he improves the team. The net gain he brings to the team overall trumps the discomfort of trying to find minutes for two good players.

Its the same with Bosh. He's too good not to improve the team even if he plays center, and that's the entire point.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Bosh isn't coming here.

But I like that the Mavericks are trying to get him. Look, I get that he's an average defender at best, but if we're moving forwards three steps offensively and moving back one step defensively...doesn't that give us a positive net gain?

Bosh is a very, very good offensive player. He shoots jumpers, but half of his shots come at the basket. To call him "just a bad jump shooter" is garbage. He's not just a jump shooter, and when he does shoot them, he shoots them at about a 44% clip. Dirk, from that same 10-23 foot area, shoots 45%.

So what do we have? A player who scored 24 ppg last year in a multitude of different ways, who is extremely efficient (52% FG), who can get to the line (8.4 a game) and shoots them well from there (about 80%), and we have people bitching about the hypothetical thought of him coming here.

I'm not going to say he's a perfect fit. Clearly, Bosh is not a perfect all around player. But he's a good one. Very good. How many "very good" players do we honestly expect to have a shot at this free agency. If James or Wade or Johnson or whoever was on their knees begging to come here, then this would be totally different. They aren't, and so if we got Bosh, he might not fit as well as hoped, but with his talent, he would improve the team. And that's what the point is, isn't it? Improving the team. If we're so scared of bringing in players at positions we already have starters at, then why the Chris Paul talk? Oh, right, because he improves the team. The net gain he brings to the team overall trumps the discomfort of trying to find minutes for two good players.

Its the same with Bosh. He's too good not to improve the team even if he plays center, and that's the entire point.

this X1000

Plus rep

[MaVs 41 BaLler]

Who cares if they all play the same position, if you have talent you win. Look at how Team U.S.A was stuffed with superstars, they didn't even have a 7 footer on the team and they still swept everybody and went home with gold. Besides there aren't many legit centers today in the Nba with post skills. Playing Bosh or Nowitzki at center is not a problem because they will even out the defense pressure with their offense.

[Dirkenstien]

So, which is the better value? Bosh at the expense of all of our chips (DUST, Roddy, Butler, etc.) or Jefferson at the expense of DUST + picks, cash

The Jefferson deal would create a roster that looks something like this:

Haywood / Jefferson / Shaq ?
Dirk / Jefferson
Marion / Najera
Butler / Terry
Kidd / Roddy / Barea

Not bad. You get a lot of versatility and depth in the front court. You also have a lot more penetration with Roddy's expected improved mpg's. I swill wouldn't mind looking to trade Butler for a natural 2 but this a pretty solid roster.

[grndmstr_c]

Bosh vs. Jefferson comes down to two things in my mind:

1) Bosh's ts% over the last three years was over 58%; Jefferson's at about 53% over that span. The primary reason for the difference is ftas: Bosh gets to the line much more often than Jefferson; a useful skill in the playoffs, and a fact that flies in the face of those who pine for Al while criticizing Bosh's aggressiveness.

2) Jefferson's ability to score the basketball drops off pretty quickly once you get more than 10 feet from the basket, whereas Bosh can be used as a weapon, and has to be guarded, 18-20 feet out, yet still takes nearly 40% of his fgas 'inside' (per 82games).

A lot of people go for post scoring. I prefer versatile, efficient scoring and an ability to draw fouls.

That said, those who respond by saying Bosh isn't coming to Dallas are almost certainly correct, and the chances of Jefferson landing here are only slightly higher, so this discussion is probably nothing more than academic.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

You are wasting your time with who is better and by how much. Still doesn't prove that Bosh is a better fit here than Jefferson.

But I'm not wasting my time, because which player is better is relevant when neither of them are a good fit. They play the same position--neither of them are really what we need. But if those were the only two options (and this is all hypothetical of course, because we're not getting either most likely), you've absolutely got to take the better player.

If it were a situation where a worse overall player was a much better fit, I'd be on board with that. But I think it's a big mistake to assume that Jefferson is a better fit because he scores in the low post a bit more. He's much less efficient than Bosh.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

So, which is the better value? Bosh at the expense of all of our chips (DUST, Roddy, Butler, etc.) or Jefferson at the expense of DUST + picks, cash

I'm willing to bet that Bosh is cheaper, or at least no more expensive than Jefferson. Minny's under minimal pressure to move Al. Toronto's likely to be faced with a choice between losing Bosh for nothing or trading him for a poor return within the week.

And for the record I'd be opposed to trading Booby for either.

[quietsavant]

All this speculation is great, but Chris Bosh still does not fancy playing for Dallas and at the end of the Free agency courting, will sign with his butt buddy DWADE, or Lebron. or maybe both. The guy hates the idea of playing in his hometown. It was that way before and hasn't changed.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by quietsavant

All this speculation is great, but Chris Bosh still does not fancy playing for Dallas and at the end of the Free agency courting, will sign with his butt buddy DWADE, or Lebron. or maybe both. The guy hates the idea of playing in his hometown. It was that way before and hasn't changed.

No way dude. Silk Smoov assured me otherwise. Joe Johnson really wants to come here too, because Little Rock is basically in Dallas's backyard.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

So, which is the better value? Bosh at the expense of all of our chips (DUST, Roddy, Butler, etc.) or Jefferson at the expense of DUST + picks, cash

The Jefferson deal would create a roster that looks something like this:

Haywood / Jefferson / Shaq ?
Dirk / Jefferson
Marion / Najera
Butler / Terry
Kidd / Roddy / Barea

Not bad. You get a lot of versatility and depth in the front court. You also have a lot more penetration with Roddy's expected improved mpg's. I swill wouldn't mind looking to trade Butler for a natural 2 but this a pretty solid roster.

this might get us into a situation where Dirk has to come off the bench to keep the two sensitive centers happy. anyone that thinks Haywood or Jefferson will be happy of the bench is crazy.

[quietsavant]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

No way dude. Silk Smoov assured me otherwise. Joe Johnson really wants to come here too, because Little Rock is basically in Dallas's backyard.

haha, that would be one hell of a move for the FO. The more I think about it though Al jefferson at the 5 would be the most fundamental 5 offensively we've had. take a look see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcT7JTmPPrk

[sike]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'm willing to bet that Bosh is cheaper, or at least no more expensive than Jefferson. Minny's under minimal pressure to move Al. Toronto's likely to be faced with a choice between losing Bosh for nothing or trading him for a poor return within the week.

And for the record I'd be opposed to trading Booby for either.

Mavs wouldn't let Roddy go for Jefferson...I could see it for Both though.

I HATE that Bosh doesn't want to play in Dallas...almost as if on principle. WHAT THE HECK??!!

[mkat]

Originally Posted by sike

Mavs wouldn't let Roddy go for Jefferson...I could see it for Both though.

I HATE that Bosh doesn't want to play in Dallas...almost as if on principle. WHAT THE HECK??!!

he comes off as a dick, honestly. i've never seen him interviewed or whatever and thought, "Man, i wish he was on the Mavs."