Kevin Martin - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

rabbitproof · 12-17-2010, 03:09 PM

On first glance, it looks like a killing of a trade but bouncing around some forums, it doesn't look so one-sided.

One, we are banking Tyson being healthy.
Two, Tyson playing more minutes and remaining as effective as he has been.

I am going back to neutral on Wood/Beaubois/misc. for Martin.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-17-2010, 03:25 PM

I think some people around here underrate the value of centers. Most reasonable non-espn (Bill Simmons) people believe Haywood's contract is reasonable. I'd bet it's more than reasonable to Houston right now. There will almost always be a team that needs a pg or center. We're one of the best teams in the league and Houston isn't....that puts us in the driver's seat. Martin for Haywood/Stevenson is decent, but I'd tap the breaks a bit before throwing in Roddy.

rabbitproof · 12-17-2010, 03:29 PM

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=37gcjug

What do you guys think? We would be shooting all our trade wads.. if possible, you could try to plug in Dojo/1st for Roddy?

Kidd/JET
Martin/Lee
Battier/Marion
Dirk/Marion
Chandler/Miller

mavs777 · 12-17-2010, 05:37 PM

change mind

Thomas86 · 12-17-2010, 07:34 PM

I'm worried about the defense...I'm not sure if I want Chandler, Mahinmi and Ajinca as our centers to battle the Spurs or Lakers in the playoffs.

Martin would help with the offense but when was the last time he made the team he was on better?...

mavs777 · 12-17-2010, 09:26 PM

doesn't mean anything but martin beasting so far and apparently Memphis's team stayed in Memphis

BGMaverick9 · 12-18-2010, 01:29 AM

I spoke with more personnel in the Mavs organization this evening, it'll get added in to the piece tomorrow on MMB.

A lot of it will be rehashing general aspects, but it will have those added things I've learned over the course of the day.

xrobx · 12-18-2010, 01:36 AM

while we're at it maybe we can trade kidd for cp3 and deshawn stevenson for kobe bryant and butler for kevin durant

sike · 12-18-2010, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrobx

while we're at it maybe we can trade kidd for cp3 and deshawn stevenson for kobe bryant and butler for kevin durant

That seems doubtful.

xrobx · 12-18-2010, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

That seems doubtful.

that was the point... this trade seems just as doubtful as those.

mavs777 · 12-18-2010, 03:05 AM

The more I think about it the more I would think Houston won't do it unless its TC instead of Haywood.

stuportremens · 12-18-2010, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

The more I think about it the more I would think Houston won't do it unless its TC instead of Haywood.

This is getting ridiculous. The last time he was traded, it was for Carl Landry. At this rate, soon somebody will argue that it takes at least Dirk and Roddy because Dirk alone won't do it.

mavs777 · 12-18-2010, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuportremens

This is getting ridiculous. The last time he was traded, it was for Carl Landry. At this rate, soon somebody will argue that it takes at least Dirk and Roddy because Dirk alone won't do it.

The Kings though got a very cheap Landry, and because of Mcgrady's expiring deal and the cash they saved a ton of money

LonghornDub · 12-18-2010, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

The Kings though got a very cheap Landry, and because of Mcgrady's expiring deal and the cash they saved a ton of money

A cheap and "hot Carl" Landry. -- Mark Followill.

Underdog · 12-18-2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

The more I think about it the more I would think Houston won't do it unless its TC instead of Haywood.

We're not so hard-up for a second scorer that we're gonna give up the guy who changed the identity of this team.

As a matter of fact, the Mavs look so good right now that we don't even NEED to make a trade to compete - we're fairly solid at every position, so we hold the cards when it comes to making deals.

I think we'd be doing Houston a favor if we traded Haywood to them, since there aren't many 7-footers available in this league... Otherwise, best of luck rebuilding your franchise, fellas - we're fine as-is.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 12-18-2010, 12:03 PM

The Mavericks dislike Deron Williams very much.

I think I just landed us DWill!

tcat075 · 12-18-2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

The Mavericks dislike Deron Williams very much.

I think I just landed us DWill!

Sweet. I doubt you know this, because its not like people talk about it all the time, but he's from the Colony.

tcat075 · 12-18-2010, 12:33 PM

Well, first off, I don't like the chances of this trade actually being pulled off. I don't see the upside for Houston, giving up a young(ish) scorer like Martin for a center who possibly could be solid, but not any better than that. Martin is scoring 23 ppg right now? He possibly could be even better. Haywood is a 10 points 12 board guy at his ceiling right now, and he's four years older. I know the Rockets are lacking center depth, but its not so bad they are prepared to give up their number one scorer to do so.

I remember I wanted Martin last year. He was my preferred player, out of the trio of Butler, Iguodala and him. I like Martin, and he will score if he comes here. He's not a "bad team" scorer or whatever, he's just a scorer. He shoots and he gets to the line. Those are universal skills, which work in every offense. He doesn't have to have certain pieces around him, or a lack of certain pieces, to score. Obviously, his scoring will drop some because there are a lot of veterans used to shooting the ball on this team, but I'd be shocked if it was not within a point or two of 20 ppg.

My problem is whether our defense could absorb the addition of Martin and stay elite. Our defense was not elite last year, so I wanted Martin so that our offense could be elite. Obviously, that's changed. It'd be freaking stupid to gain elite status on one of the ends of the court, and then throw it away due to a rash player acquisition. Martin is pretty awful on that end, by all accounts, and he doesn't get steals or draw charges like JJB and Terry do to help make up for it. I'm not saying Martin would come in and cause our defense to plummet to 15th in the league or something like that, I'm just saying that if the Mavericks fear he would inversely affect the defense, he has no place on this team.

I also hate losing Roddy, because he's one of those few explosive penetrators. Martin drives and draws fouls, but he's not ridiculously explosive like Beaubois is. 80% of his shots are still jumpers (I'd give you Roddy's % but 82games is acting odd right now). Roddy, on the other hand, can basically get into the lane every possession if he wants. Even when he doesn't take shots, the penetration and subsequent collapse of the defense opens up open jump shots for our primarily jump shooting team. That's why Roddy is such a great fit for this team, and I don't think Martin is the same sort of player at all. That right there is why I'd be really, really hesistant to trade away Roddy right now, no matter who we were trading him for.

wilmtalk · 12-18-2010, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

-----------------------------------------------------------------------I also hate losing Roddy, because he's one of those few explosive penetrators. Martin drives and draws fouls, but he's not ridiculously explosive like Beaubois is. 80% of his shots are still jumpers (I'd give you Roddy's % but 82games is acting odd right now). Roddy, on the other hand, can basically get into the lane every possession if he wants. Even when he doesn't take shots, the penetration and subsequent collapse of the defense opens up open jump shots for our primarily jump shooting team. That's why Roddy is such a great fit for this team, and I don't think Martin is the same sort of player at all. That right there is why I'd be really, really hesistant to trade away Roddy right now, no matter who we were trading him for.

I am in general agreement with your entire post but this last part clearly articulates an important point about trades that most posters on this trade board always seem to forget. They always seem to forget or never recognize that what is the most important factor in trades is need combined with team chemistry. I think the problems that the Heat have experienced is one example of talent being hindered by the lack of chemistry. Roddy is an important fit for the offense just as Chandler was for the defense. TC would not have the same impact on most other teams. There were some who had the ability to recognized this long before it was played out on the court. In the same respect I don't think a lot of posters recognize why Roddy's unique talents are as potentially important to this team since they are not refected by numbers they can actually see on paper. They are entirely too caught up in stats which works for fantasy leagues but not reality.

tcat075 · 12-18-2010, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

I am in general agreement with your entire post but this last part clearly articulates an important point about trades that most posters on this trade board always seem to forget. They always seem to forget or never recognize that what is the most important factor in trades is need combined with team chemistry. I think the problems that the Heat have experienced is one example of talent being hindered by the lack of chemistry. Roddy is an important fit for the offense just as Chandler was for the defense. TC would not have the same impact on most other teams. There were some who had the ability to recognized this long before it was played out on the court. In the same respect I don't think a lot of posters recognize why Roddy's unique talents are as potentially important to this team since they are not refected by numbers they can actually see on paper. They are entirely too caught up in stats which works for fantasy leagues but not reality.

That's not exactly what I was saying. I don't think Roddy is an "important fit for the offense". I don't think I know what Roddy is. All I'm saying is that he has a talent of athleticism and burst that few others in this league have, and it will not be easy to replace if the Mavericks choose to trade him away. That doesn't mean he's better than Carmelo or Kevin Martin or even Caron Butler, just like Shawn Bradley and Zydrunas Ilgauskas weren't the best centers just because no one else is as tall as them, but he is rather unique, so the Mavericks better be very, very sure of any deal they choose to put him in.

wilmtalk · 12-19-2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

That's not exactly what I was saying. I don't think Roddy is an "important fit for the offense". I don't think I know what Roddy is. All I'm saying is that he has a talent of athleticism and burst that few others in this league have, and it will not be easy to replace if the Mavericks choose to trade him away. That doesn't mean he's better than Carmelo or Kevin Martin or even Caron Butler, just like Shawn Bradley and Zydrunas Ilgauskas weren't the best centers just because no one else is as tall as them, but he is rather unique, so the Mavericks better be very, very sure of any deal they choose to put him in.

Notice I said potential? I was in my post refering to the point you make about the availability of players like him in the league. He is the type of player who's potential impact would be difficult to replace. I was at first not really happy when the Mavs resigned Kidd to a 3 year contract. When they drafted Roddy my oppinion changed because with him on the floor Kidds shortcomings would be compensated for by a player with Roddys skills both on offense and defense. With the acquision of TC Kidds defensive libilities are less of a handicap because Chandler is the second line of defense for the quick guards that Kidd has trouble defending.

Roddy in essense is quick enough to defend the quick guards while also being able to break down the defense off the dribble which Kidd can no longer do. Why do you think JJB gets all his time on the floor. He brings those qualities which are lacking in the other guards on this team. Kidd is still a major asset to this team as long as he is teamed with the right players.

They main point of my post was that some of the players that other posters seem to be desperate to acquire might not really fit on this team. The two's they are promoting are generally defensive libilities. Yes Chandler makes up for a lot of that but he can't be on the floor all the time and is effective primarily in the zone. Remember why the team plays the zone-- To cover for the weak man to man defense of the prerimiter players. Do we really need another ball dominant offensive player who will hurt us on defense? Also remember the initial problem that Butler had fitting into the offense. How long would it take another ball dominant player to adjust if at all. It's a major gamble. Wait till Dirk is really on the decline. Dirk has shown that he can still consistantly carry the offense. I remember when a lot of posters were b*tching that Dirk wasn't getting the ball enough earlier in the season. .Bring in Martin or another player like him with out giving up Butler and Dirk will most likely never see the ball on offense. You'll turn him into just another spot up shooter. There is only one ball in the game at a time.

What this team needs is a player who will be primarily be able to break down the D off the dribble. They have plenty of defensive libility shooters who are major assets in fantasy leagues. The former is the type of player that Roddy represents. Martin also has that ability but as you have yourself said Martin is not in Roddys league in that respect. Martin and players like him represent mostly an offensive upgrade to simular players skills already on the team. We don't need another player who might be a defensive libility especially on the perimiter. Sure Chandlers presence compensates for that but Dirk presence also compensates on the offensive end. The difference is that Dirk has a history of being consistantly healthy.

You say that you don't know what kind of player Roddy is! Did you miss the games that he was allowed to play last year? Perhaps you were refering to the unknown factor of his recovery. But he is what this team with the roster as it is now really needs so much more than they would need a player like Martin or Iggy with a far less cost to the cap.

Also I believe that ball dominant players, especially those who were the primary scoring options on losing teams, more often than not get locked into a pattern of play that they need to get rid of when the are placed on a winning team. Post players like Gasol don't have the same problem adjusting because they are not primary ball handlers such as a two guard would most certainly be..
Most of the candidates proposed for being Dirks robin actually would end up wanting to be Batman. Why do you think the Kings traded Martin in the first place. He couldn't share the floor with Evens.

tcat075 · 12-19-2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

Notice I said potential? I was in my post refering to the point you make about the availability of players like him in the league. He is the type of player who's potential impact would be difficult to replace. I was at first not really happy when the Mavs resigned Kidd to a 3 year contract. When they drafted Roddy my oppinion changed because with him on the floor Kidds shortcomings would be compensated for by a player with Roddys skills both on offense and defense. With the acquision of TC Kidds defensive libilities are less of a handicap because Chandler is the second line of defense for the quick guards that Kidd has trouble defending.

Roddy in essense is quick enough to defend the quick guards while also being able to break down the defense off the dribble which Kidd can no longer do. Why do you think JJB gets all his time on the floor. He brings those qualities which are lacking in the other guards on this team. Kidd is still a major asset to this team as long as he is teamed with the right players.

They main point of my post was that some of the players that other posters seem to be desperate to acquire might not really fit on this team. The two's they are promoting are generally defensive libilities. Yes Chandler makes up for a lot of that but he can't be on the floor all the time and is effective primarily in the zone. Remember why the team plays the zone-- To cover for the weak man to man defense of the prerimiter players. Do we really need another ball dominant offensive player who will hurt us on defense? Also remember the initial problem that Butler had fitting into the offense. How long would it take another ball dominant player to adjust if at all. It's a major gamble. Wait till Dirk is really on the decline. Dirk has shown that he can still consistantly carry the offense. I remember when a lot of posters were b*tching that Dirk wasn't getting the ball enough earlier in the season. .Bring in Martin or another player like him with out giving up Butler and Dirk will most likely never see the ball on offense. You'll turn him into just another spot up shooter. There is only one ball in the game at a time.

What this team needs is a player who will be primarily be able to break down the D off the dribble. They have plenty of defensive libility shooters who are major assets in fantasy leagues. The former is the type of player that Roddy represents. Martin also has that ability but as you have yourself said Martin is not in Roddys league in that respect. Martin and players like him represent mostly an offensive upgrade to simular players skills already on the team. We don't need another player who might be a defensive libility especially on the perimiter. Sure Chandlers presence compensates for that but Dirk presence also compensates on the offensive end. The difference is that Dirk has a history of being consistantly healthy.

You say that you don't know what kind of player Roddy is! Did you miss the games that he was allowed to play last year? Perhaps you were refering to the unknown factor of his recovery. But he is what this team with the roster as it is now really needs so much more than they would need a player like Martin or Iggy with a far less cost to the cap.

Also I believe that ball dominant players, especially those who were the primary scoring options on losing teams, more often than not get locked into a pattern of play that they need to get rid of when the are placed on a winning team. Post players like Gasol don't have the same problem adjusting because they are not primary ball handlers such as a two guard would most certainly be..
Most of the candidates proposed for being Dirks robin actually would end up wanting to be Batman. Why do you think the Kings traded Martin in the first place. He couldn't share the floor with Evens.

Roddy had a really great, limited rookie year. I don't think that we can assume he's going to be a 50/40/80 guy for the rest of his year, average 20 ppg, and make the all-NBA team a few times just because of some nice games against crappy teams the coaches knew he'd excel at. I'm a huge Roddy fan, love his potential, and fully believe he can do that. Assuming he can, though, especially due to his injury that appears troublesome, is rather ludicrous. Once again, I love Roddy and I want him back as soon as possible because I know that if he can translate his skills we saw last year into extending minutes, he will be a huge help. But its too early to know that for sure.

rabbitproof · 12-18-2010, 01:50 PM

Unless we see another source say something in the next couple days, I'm gonna chalk it up to Fish blowing hot air again.

tcat075 · 12-18-2010, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Unless we see another source say something in the next couple days, I'm gonna chalk it up to Fish blowing hot air again.

Well, it depends on what you mean by hot air. I'm sure there is interest on both sides. I don't think there will be anything close to a compromise between the two sides, though. That's where Fish gets it wrong. He reports that Kevin Martin is available, he reports that Haywood is desired by Houston, and somehow, 2+2=27. Now we have Beaubois/Haywood for Martin rumors floating around. In actuality, its just interest from two teams for two players on the other team, which no real deal even being close to being completed. This isn't something Fish is completely pulling out of his ass, but not really true either.

rabbitproof · 12-18-2010, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Well, it depends on what you mean by hot air. I'm sure there is interest on both sides. I don't think there will be anything close to a compromise between the two sides, though. That's where Fish gets it wrong. He reports that Kevin Martin is available, he reports that Haywood is desired by Houston, and somehow, 2+2=27. Now we have Beaubois/Haywood for Martin rumors floating around. In actuality, its just interest from two teams for two players on the other team, which no real deal even being close to being completed. This isn't something Fish is completely pulling out of his ass, but not really true either.

2+2=27 is a good way to sum it up. I laughed at that because it reminds me of a lot of rumormongering out there.

I am leaning more towards skepticism, which is probably the boring way to think about things, but interest in each other's players is probably going to atleast lead to some meaningful conversations between the FOs.

BGMaverick9 · 12-18-2010, 02:02 PM

here's my article

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2010/12...te-trade-offer

tcat075 · 12-18-2010, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

here's my article

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2010/12...te-trade-offer

I love you BG. That was awesome, and I now officially have way more hope than I did before. I still think any deal is quite doubtful, but pointing out that the Rockets have a quantity of wing players was something I had overlooked.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 12-18-2010, 03:00 PM

HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
KBerg_CBS

"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."

So they're definetely willing to trade Martin for a center.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-18-2010, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
KBerg_CBS

"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."

So they're definetely willing to trade Martin for a center.

If they offered Martin for Gortat, then you'd have to imagine they'd go for Haywood.

grndmstr_c · 12-18-2010, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
KBerg_CBS

"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."

So they're definetely willing to trade Martin for a center.

Very interesting. Wish I knew which other players were being discussed so I could get a better idea of how Martin's being valued in trade discussions. Any way you slice it, though, if you want the Mavericks to land him in a Haywood-centered deal, this has to be an encouraging piece of news.

BGMaverick9 · 12-18-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Very interesting. Wish I knew which other players were being discussed so I could get a better idea of how Martin's being valued in trade discussions. Any way you slice it, though, if you want the Mavericks to land him in a Haywood-centered deal, this has to be an encouraging piece of news.

It goes back to what I said in my article, he's expendable based on their depth at the position. Add to it that he's their biggest asset in terms of landing what they'd want...it would look promising for a Dallas angle

FreshJive · 12-18-2010, 02:59 PM

http://twitter.com/KBerg_CBS

"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."

Maybe Caron would be enough of an addition instead of Roddy. He is a similar asset to Vince.

FreshJive · 12-18-2010, 03:19 PM

http://twitter.com/TheRocketGuy

The Rockets DID NOT offer Martin. They were interested in Gortat, and offered several scenarios, but never offered Martin.

BGMaverick9 · 12-18-2010, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshJive

http://twitter.com/TheRocketGuy

The Rockets DID NOT offer Martin. They were interested in Gortat, and offered several scenarios, but never offered Martin.

That still leaves an option open though. It wouldn't be the sexy route though. Like I said, there is going to be interest on both sides...it might not be a home run talent wise but it could still work favorable for both sides.

jthig32 · 12-18-2010, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshJive

http://twitter.com/TheRocketGuy

The Rockets DID NOT offer Martin. They were interested in Gortat, and offered several scenarios, but never offered Martin.

It's Bill Ingram.....

ComeOnNow · 12-18-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's Bill Ingram.....

KBerg_CBS Ken Berger
Source correcting me: #Rockets didn't offer Kevin Martin for Gortat. They specifically wouldn't offer him.

Not just Ingram... If the Rockets wouldn't offer Martin for a younger center who is hungry for minutes and is better at freethrows, with a better contract, I have my doubts that they will take Haywood. Do the Rockets have interest in Haywood? Probably. Do the Mavs covet Martin? Very possible. But that doesn't mean that the Rockets are willing to trade one for the other.

tcat075 · 12-18-2010, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComeOnNow

KBerg_CBS Ken Berger
Source correcting me: #Rockets didn't offer Kevin Martin for Gortat. They specifically wouldn't offer him.

Not just Ingram... If the Rockets wouldn't offer Martin for a younger center who is hungry for minutes and is better at freethrows, with a better contract, I have my doubts that they will take Haywood. Do the Rockets have interest in Haywood? Probably. Do the Mavs covet Martin? Very possible. But that doesn't mean that the Rockets are willing to trade one for the other.

Its not just Haywood, it'd be Haywood and Beaubois. No way they do it straight up for Haywood.

BGMaverick9 · 12-18-2010, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Its not just Haywood, it'd be Haywood and Beaubois. No way they do it straight up for Haywood.

I'm not really sure where the Beaubois inclusion is coming from other than speculative stuff. I find it very hard to believe that Roddy will be included.

If something ever materializes, I think Houston would say they want Haywood and then Dallas will say ok, we want Martin. It's the art of a deal, you throw your first option of the best-case deal you'd want to make (basically a silly offer just hoping they'll bite) and then you talk it out to a deal you can settle with.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 12-18-2010, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Its not just Haywood, it'd be Haywood and Beaubois. No way they do it straight up for Haywood.

That's just like...your opinion man. Many including DLord from Dallasbasketball feel that since decent 7 footers are so hard to find The Rockets would have to settle for Stevenson/Haywood or nothing. And I feel the same way and if they dont accept that then there's no deal. We're not in a position of desperation here. If anyone is it's the Rockets.

Underdog · 12-18-2010, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Its not just Haywood, it'd be Haywood and Beaubois. No way they do it straight up for Haywood.

The salaries still don't match for Haywood/Roddy - it would have to be something like Haywood/Stevenson, then they could add Roddy to the deal as sweetener (but Houston would also have to offer a low-dollar/high-upside guy to even hold the Mavs' interest...)