NVE to Pacers? - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 03:28 PM

<< how exactly do we dramatically improve I don't understand??? >>

You don't understand because we don't improve.

<< The only reason I say that 14th pick does nothing for us is because there is NO ONE in this years draft with the exception of a big 5 or 4 that will get significant time on our court. By the 14th pick anyone worth getting that much time will probably be gone with the exception of Ely. So if we were certain we could get Ely with that 14th pick, then I would say do it, but I don't think Ely will help us out that much next year but I think it would be good for the team in the long run. >>

Great points here and all are reasons why I hope the Mavs are not going to deal too much to get draft picks for next week. The Mavs don't are past developing projects.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 03:33 PM

the mavs could turn the pick into a big man via trade possibly..or they could still sign a big man to the exception..maybe keon clark..and could draft a PG with the pick to eat up some minutes along with AJ.

this would address every mavs issue.

however, i'd still like to see the mavs try and use NVE to bring in a big man..

TheKid · 06-21-2002, 03:33 PM

I agree with the rest of your post, but not necessarily with this one. Most of the good big man prospects will be gone at that point, but if we trade NVE we have a need at pg, and there will be a number of point guards still available at 14 to replace Nick and start training for when Nash retires--Dickau being the best example, Welsch being the type to definitely intrigue Nellie.

But Hoops would you really draft Dickau that high in the draft? I might be wrong here, but wouldn't we take the chance to see if he's going to be around late in the second round. I remember they projected that other point guard from Gonzaga to be a late first round draft pick and he didn't get drafted. That always happens with point guards.

I can recall a guy that played in college with Michael Finley named Tracy Webster who DON NELSON (who was with GS at the time) said would be a late first round draft pick and he went undrafted. I might be wrong but I just think Dickau will be around for a while in the draft, rather I would be willing to wait for him.

Hoopsmeister · 06-21-2002, 03:36 PM

<< The mavs still need to go after a big man..right hoops?
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] >>

If they can add one with the exception. I won't even object to do it by trading NVE if its a real quality big man. If its for some 8th man, bad move.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 03:38 PM

Tito Maddux will hang around late probably. I'm not sure where Dickau and Welsch go. Every mock draft I have been over is entirely different than the next.

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 03:40 PM

<< no, the majority isn't with you... some may think that it's not as lopsided as i do..but most have agreed that if it was that trade or not trade NVE..you'd have to make that trade >>

I've read the whole thread, and I disagree, but I really don't feel like going back to count who said what. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] I suppose we could post a poll if you want, but my logic still rings true: This trade does NOT make the Mavericks a better team.

Drbio · 06-21-2002, 03:41 PM

The worst thing for the Mavs to do would be to stand pat. I think that Keon Clark could be had for the exception and I like that idea. He would be a good pick up for this team. To be honest, I am tired of this exercise. I think NVE has the highest trade value, but obviously I do not trade him just to do it.

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 03:43 PM

Keon Clark's OK by me, although I'd prefer Kurt Thomas.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 03:45 PM

i'd like to have kurt thomas again as well... KC wouldn't be bad for the exception.. with dirk's defensive improvement and with KC, the interior defense would be markedly better

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 03:47 PM

<< Keon Clark's OK by me, although I'd prefer Kurt Thomas. >>

Would Thomas be happy to come off the bench? Assuming we re-sign LaFrentz, that would be the role of any acquired big man. I would think that Clark would be much more willing to do that since that is the role he has had in his career thus far.

TheKid · 06-21-2002, 03:47 PM

Also Murph,

you said he was given the freedom. That was my point, but he and Artest were given the same freedom. They both played for terrible teams so we can measure the success on the team's success because neither team was successful. However I will say this Van Exel played in the West and Artest played on the worst team in the EAST!

When he was given the freedom he did NOTHING to take advantage of that and showcase his talents. Van Exel on the other hand DID showcase his.

I hear people saying he has been unable to provide what we needed here, he didn't do terrible here. We can say he played terrible in the Sac. series but guess what, so did Nash. BOTH of our point guards played terrible.

There were games this year, we rode Van Exel and remember he was only here for half the season, so do "I" think he can adjust to be what we need, yes I do but would I be willing to part with him for something better like a big man HELL YES.. However this trade doesn't do it, in my opinion.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 03:52 PM

yes, artest proved he couldn't carry a team.

however, i have a hard time believing NVE will be a good backup PG. i have a hard time thinking that he can actually look to pass first. if he doesn't look to pass first, he's no good to the mavs... we'll have the same situation as last year where when he came in, the hot player couldn't get the ball in his hands... it happened to fin.. it happened to dirk.
as long as NVE is around looking for his shot (a 40% shot i might add), the offense will suffer to a large degree because of his mentality.

i have a hard time thinking artest would come in here and have that same mentality. i believe he'd be more excepting of his role.. at least we wouldn't have Don Nelson confused as to what his role should be.

Nve comes in and looks to shoot first...he supplies little defensively.

artest would at least supply defense and would be fine with slashing to the basket and being the 4th-5th option when on the court.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 03:55 PM

the point you're missing thekid is that the mavs do not need a guy in here that comes in and looks to be the #1 option while shooting 40%. They have enough possible #1 options. They don't need someone with that mentality.

As long as NVE is here, he'll come in with that mentality. He is not near as good of a scorer as Nash, Dirk, or Fin. When he comes into the game, the teams offensive output will suffer because NVE doesn't get the ball into the hands of the better scorers on this team.. he'd rather put up his 40% shot than get the ball to guys that are much more effective and efficient at putting the ball in the hole

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 04:00 PM

<<

<< Keon Clark's OK by me, although I'd prefer Kurt Thomas. >>

Would Thomas be happy to come off the bench? Assuming we re-sign LaFrentz, that would be the role of any acquired big man. I would think that Clark would be much more willing to do that since that is the role he has had in his career thus far. >>

If we acquire Thomas, I'd start him with LaFrentz and Nowitzki.

TheKid · 06-21-2002, 04:01 PM

Like I said there is some benefit with the trade and Artest for NVE, I don't disagree there. Is Artest better defensively, without question he is. Granted Artest would probably be willing to be a fourth or fifth option however like I said there is some benefit from having NVE here that Artest doesn't give the Mavs.

I can't recall the game that was on TNT this year but the Mavs were struggling the first half and NO ONE on and we ended up down at half but we were close enough that we were able to make a run the second half. I can recall at half time Vecey saying, "where would this team be in the first half without Van Exel." We ended up winning that game but my point is Van Exel CAN provide something that Artest canNOT. We would NEVER be able to ride Artest like that.

I'm telling you I can recall sitting at games at the United Center where fans were yelling at him SHOOT THE BALL, people were sagging off of him he wouldn't shoot. Then come down and take an illadvised 3 pointer. So my point is that what you lose in NVE you do gain in Artest but Van Exel CAN provide the Mavs for some things.

Now I do agree that in order to be our backup he would HAVE TO become more of a pass first point guard, we're on the same page there, but I'm saying even if he doesn't, I think he's more valuable to the Mavs than Artest or Croshere. That's just my opinion.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 04:04 PM

even if he doesn't look to pass first..there's no way in hell he's more valuable than austin, artest, and the 14th pick

and your point about the game you remember where NVE carried him.
you can say that about just about anyone.. there were games where tony dumas carried the mavs in the first half..

for every game NVE carries us..there's probably 7-8 games where he shoots 30% or worse and takes repeated poor shots

TheKid · 06-21-2002, 04:13 PM

Well Tony Dumas did it on a team that won less than 20 games, NVE did it for one of the top 4 teams in the NBA there's a HUGE difference there.

I'm not focusing so much on one game, I'm saying there are times when we would need him to step up in that fashion and he would be more equipped and able to do it than Artest or Croshere.

The only part that I'm somewhat torn on is that 14th pick because that's the unknown and that could turn out to be something good or maybe not. However the other two, maybe you like Artest and Croshere but they just don't do it for me.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 04:20 PM

<< If we acquire Thomas, I'd start him with LaFrentz and Nowitzki. >>

Assuming you move Dirk to the the 3 and Dirk is a huge defensive liability at the 3. It was apparant last year that the 4 is his best position and would keep him near the basket.

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 04:29 PM

<<

<< If we acquire Thomas, I'd start him with LaFrentz and Nowitzki. >>

Assuming you move Dirk to the the 3 and Dirk is a huge defensive liability at the 3. It was apparant last year that the 4 is his best position and would keep him near the basket. >>

Dirk is a defensive liability wherever he plays. So was Mark Aguirre, and Larry Bird, and Dominique Wilkins, and so on and so forth.

Dirk will outplay everyone he's matched up with at SF. He can't guard them, but they can't guard him.

And who says you have to play the whole game that way? That's just who I'd start.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 04:32 PM

<< Yes, you would have to make that assumption. >>

Bad idea.

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 04:36 PM

I only saw part of your post. I edited to respond to the rest once I saw it all.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 04:38 PM

<< Dirk is a defensive liability wherever he plays >>

I guess, but he seemed more comfortable this year at the 4 than he ever did at the 3. We need to keep in mind that we are building the team around Dirk's abilities, not where we can fit in Kurt Thomas.

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 04:43 PM

<<

<< Dirk is a defensive liability wherever he plays >>

I guess, but he seemed more comfortable this year at the 4 than he ever did at the 3. We need to keep in mind that we are building the team around Dirk's abilities, not where we can fit in Kurt Thomas. >>

I don't care if they start Thomas or not, I just said I'd start him. Thomas probably wouldn't care if they started him or not. He'd play 30 minutes a game either way. Start LaFrentz, Nowitzki, and Griffin in the frontcourt if you want, and bring Thomas off the bench as the main frontcourt reserve. Makes no difference to me.

Kurt Thomas would be a great fit here. For you to suggest he isn't doesn't make much sense to me.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 04:47 PM

<< Kurt Thomas would be a great fit here. For you to suggest he isn't doesn't make much sense to me. >>

I'm not suggesting he isn't a good fit and I'm not saying this just to spite you. I am just coming at the big man issue from a different angle is all.

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 04:53 PM

Ideally, we could acquire Kurt Thomas and Charlie Ward for Nick Van Exel, then sign Olowokandi as a free agent. Bring LaFrentz and Thomas off the bench.

That'd be a nice situation.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 05:24 PM

Dirk IS improving defensively every year.. he's much better than he was a couple of years ago. However, he still has a ways to go..hopefully he can get to where he's above average defensively.

Why wouldn't kurt thomas be a good fit? what angle are you coming from?

Lvubun1 · 06-21-2002, 05:33 PM

<< van exel is clutch only because:
if you shoot enough in that situation, you'll eventually hit a couple of shots. >>

I bet Karl Malone takes 2x as many clutch shots as Van Exel, why is NVE considered clutch and Malone isn't? I'm sure Chris Webber takes a lot more clutch shots then Nick, why isn't he considered clutch? Jason Kidd, Stevie Francis, Gary Payton, Baron Davis, Rasheed Wallace, Scottie Pippen, I can go on and on naming players who take more clutch shots then NVE, so why does NVE make top clutch list and these players don't, if all you need to do is to shoot alot? Fact is he makes them, I know of atleast 3 game winners, it could be more.

All the people who say NVE is clutch which is just about everybody are wrong because you are the only one smart enough to consider that he shoots alot. Don't you think they factored that in or there is some grand conspearicy to say NVE is clutch. Your blind hatred for NVE is clouding you better judgement. If someone said "NVE's head is bald" you would find so way to argue it.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 05:35 PM

nve has a place, it just shouldn't be with the mavs..
he doesn't fit here
his abilities and his mindset don't match the mavs needs

I don't need dirk and fin to be frozen out of a game when they're hot so a 40% shooter can come in and monopolize the ball with poor shot attempt after poor shot attempt

FilthyFinMavs · 06-21-2002, 06:22 PM

<< nve has a place, it just shouldn't be with the mavs..
he doesn't fit here
his abilities and his mindset don't match the mavs needs

I don't need dirk and fin to be frozen out of a game when they're hot so a 40% shooter can come in and monopolize the ball with poor shot attempt after poor shot attempt >>

Marc Stein has said that the Mavs wont trade any of there top 5 players to get a rookie. This is good so if NVE does get traded its gonna be for a proven player rather than 2 scrubs and a project.

Lvubun1 · 06-21-2002, 06:27 PM

Once again you are directing your anger at the wrong person, I know you seeing NVE shot instead of Dirk makes your skin peel. But as it has been said 1000s of times, it wasn't Nick it was Nellie. Its not "we need a player who will pass first" its "we need a coach who will tell our back-up to pass first"

Old article:

Van Exel's drive is a refreshing approach

04/16/2002 by Kevin Sherrington

.....All the civility took a little while for Van Exel to get used to. Finally, after a few weeks
of playing the proper houseguest, he realized that Nelson really did want him to
shoot first and pass second.........

And what's to complain about now? How can you not like a team where the coach
wants you to shoot and everyone gets minutes and the team has a chance to go at
least a couple rounds deep in the playoffs? ........

So just about whoever the Mavs bring in as the replacement if he is traded Nellie will tell them the same thing. So the question is would you rather have a top 10 PG play 25-30 minutes and shoot first or a rookie/pick up free agent play 25-30 minutes and shoot first?

FilthyFinMavs · 06-21-2002, 06:35 PM

<< Once again you are directing your anger at the wrong person, I know you seeing NVE shot instead of Dirk makes your skin peel. But as it has been said 1000s of times, it wasn't Nick it was Nellie. Its not "we need a player who will pass first" its "we need a coach who will tell our back-up to pass first"

Old article:

Van Exel's drive is a refreshing approach

04/16/2002 by Kevin Sherrington

.....All the civility took a little while for Van Exel to get used to. Finally, after a few weeks
of playing the proper houseguest, he realized that Nelson really did want him to
shoot first and pass second.........

And what's to complain about now? How can you not like a team where the coach
wants you to shoot and everyone gets minutes and the team has a chance to go at
least a couple rounds deep in the playoffs? ........

So just about whoever the Mavs bring in as the replacement if he is traded Nellie will tell them the same thing. So the question is would you rather have a top 10 PG play 25-30 minutes and shoot first or a rookie/pick up free agent play 25-30 minutes and shoot first? >>

Nice post and I think it probaly ends this thread. Maybe this is why Murph wants Nellie boycotted lol.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 06:50 PM

no, the little tidbit doesn't change a thing.

you have AJ and any rookie or other backup PG you brought in would pick up a few minutes at PG..not many, but definitely not 25 or so

PeterVecseyisdumb · 06-21-2002, 07:11 PM

I think Nick Van Exel was hesitant to shoot when he first came to the mavs. I think Don Nelson wanted Nick Van Exel to shoot more.

If Nick Van Exel shoots less, he simply can't utilize all of his talents. Nick Van Exel is a shoot first pg, who has a bad fg percentage. Nick Van Exel is a bad defender, right now. Nick Van Exel is a bad rebounder, right now. Nick Van Exel is more suited to being a starting pg on a team where he gets to shoot the ball alot.

Nick Van Exel is a solid point guard, right now. I think what Murphy3 is saying, is that Nick Van Exel doesn't address the mavs defense, rebounding, or ball distribution. Nick Van Exel can pass the ball, but I think Don Nelson wants Nick Van Exel to shoot the ball. I agree with Murphy3, that Nick Van Exel should shoot the ball as a #4 or #5 option. When Dirk and Finley are on fire, you should pass them the ball.

It's important that the mavs improve their rebounding and defense. The mavs should have players who know their roles. Role players are important in basketball. I don't want Nick Van Exel looking to shoot first. I want Nick Van Exel looking to pass first. I want Nick Van Exel to improve his defense and rebounding.

That is why, it's important to have a pass first pg, who can defend and rebound, as a backup point guard.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 07:13 PM

passing first and playing defense isn't NVE's game.. that's why i don't believe he fits.. the mavs don't need a poor shooting backup PG to come in here and look to shoot first. it's not what they need.

David · 06-21-2002, 07:26 PM

As far as this proposed trade goes, if you get Croshere, you are getting a player with a high salary that duplicates some other players (Raef/Dirk/Wang) although probably not as good as they are and hard to re-trade because of his salary.

Artest is basically a Griffen/Buckner/TAW duplicate that can't shoot.

The #14 pick is interesting and there are some good PG prospects there, Frank Williams, Tito Maddux for instance but it looks like a lot of baggage to take on just to get a mid first round pick.

It looks like a trade NVE to be trading NVE deal and I don't like the idea of doing that.

I think the Mavs can get a better deal than that.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 07:36 PM

<< I think the Mavs can get a better deal than that >>

of course the mavs can do better..
and i'm hoping the do actually address their needs via using NVE in a trade.

however, i think you're selling artest a little short.. he's a better defender and might fit in very nicely as a slasher 4th option.

with a PG in the draft, you could actually get one that looks to pass first and better fits the mavs needs.... plus get younger..and maybe better defensively

David · 06-21-2002, 07:43 PM

<<

<< I think the Mavs can get a better deal than that >>

of course the mavs can do better..
and i'm hoping the do actually address their needs via using NVE in a trade.

however, i think you're selling artest a little short.. he's a better defender and might fit in very nicely as a slasher 4th option.

with a PG in the draft, you could actually get one that looks to pass first and better fits the mavs needs.... plus get younger..and maybe better defensively >>

I think Artest is more of an inside playing SF. I like the other SFs already on the roster better. I would love to get a young PG in the draft but I'm not sure how NBA ready he would be. The Mavs can get a young PG to be the 3rd option and groom later in the draft than #14.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 07:50 PM

I love griff's game.. however, i'm afraid he may never be completely healthy

artest, i think he can thrive as the 4th option.. i think his slasher type play would be a good match to the mavs needs.

plus, the mavs gain a very good defensive weapon

FilthyFinMavs · 06-21-2002, 10:09 PM

<< I love griff's game.. however, i'm afraid he may never be completely healthy

artest, i think he can thrive as the 4th option.. i think his slasher type play would be a good match to the mavs needs.

plus, the mavs gain a very good defensive weapon >>

OH hell no lol. I know u didnt just say he cuold be a 4th option. I mean I think 5th is out of the question but its more reasonable. There is no way in hell I wuold give the ballu p to Artest before Buck Najera Lafrentz or Griffen. Im just curious did u see Artest play in the playoffs? Mistake after mistake after mistake. I dont know maybe its because he is young but u cant say that you want another Artest on this squad and he shoots the same percentage as NVE? I can see it now trade Artest lol.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 10:10 PM

4th option when on the court..