D-Hare lighting it up again! - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Dirkadirkastan · 11-22-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaphAC

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/devin_harris/

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jason_kidd/

wow..Im sure this has been posted, but so far devin is showing us up....

I don't get it. Kidd is leading in G, GS, MPG, FG%, 3P%, OREB, DREB, APG, SPG, BPG, and has fewer fouls per game.

Devin is leading in PPG, FT%, and has fewer TOs.

Is there anything that surprises you about any of this?

alby · 11-22-2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I don't get it. Kidd is leading in G, GS, MPG, FG%, 3P%, OREB, DREB, APG, SPG, BPG, and has fewer fouls per game.

Devin is leading in PPG, FT%, and has fewer TOs.

Is there anything that surprises you about any of this?

winner.

LonghornDub · 11-22-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I don't get it. Kidd is leading in G, GS, MPG, FG%, 3P%, OREB, DREB, APG, SPG, BPG, and has fewer fouls per game.

Devin is leading in PPG, FT%, and has fewer TOs.

Is there anything that surprises you about any of this?

Not to mention, Kidd is on a team where he is about the 6th or so option as a scorer. Devin is the 2nd option. Kidd would (and did) have a higher PPG if he still played for the Nets.

dirno2000 · 11-22-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

How many games will Devin play this year, Dirno?

I don't know.

dirno2000 · 11-22-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I don't get it. Kidd is leading in G, GS, MPG, FG%, 3P%, OREB, DREB, APG, SPG, BPG, and has fewer fouls per game.

Devin is leading in PPG, FT%, and has fewer TOs.

Is there anything that surprises you about any of this?

Harris is leading in A/TO. That's a bit surprising. I'd say it's also surprising that Kidd is leading in FG% even if the difference is only .002. Based on his history my guess is that Kidd's fg% will eventually level out in the mid 40's.

Also, you mentioned that Devin was leading in FT% but left out the reason that's so important. He's shooting more FT's per game than Kobe, Lebron and Dwayne Wade.

dirno2000 · 11-22-2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Not to mention, Kidd is on a team where he is about the 6th or so option as a scorer. Devin is the 2nd option. Kidd would (and did) have a higher PPG if he still played for the Nets.

I'm not so sure about that. Kidd averaged 11.3 with the Nets last year and he's averaging 10.2 this year. His scoring rate has gone down every season since 2002-2003 so while he may be scoring an extra point a game in NJ I doubt it would be much more.

FINtastic · 11-22-2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Harris is leading in A/TO. That's a bit surprising. I'd say it's also surprising that Kidd is leading in FG% even if the difference is only .002. Based on his history my guess is that Kidd's fg% will eventually level out in the mid 40's.

Also, you mentioned that Devin was leading in FT% but left out the reason that's so important. He's shooting more FT's per game than Kobe, Lebron and Dwayne Wade.

I think the fact that those are surprising can be attributed more to statistical anomaly at this point than any serious trend developing. Part of the reason I can't take this scoring splurge as seriously is the fact that he's needed such a ridiculous amount of free throws to do it. He's certainly not going to end up with more free throws per game than the likes of LeBron, D-Wade, and Kobe.

And maybe he's gotten smarter on the court since I last saw him, but I imagine that A/TO ratio will level off.

Bayliss · 11-22-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

I don't know

And that was one of the problems with him as a Mav. He made the Mavs really good. He also missed huge chunks of the year. If he was healthy last year, the Mavs probably wouldn't have traded him.

You can't count on him to be a full time for 75+ games. The two times he did it for the Mavs? He only averaged 15 and 26 minutes respectively.

The only issue with the trade is the first round picks, which (IMO) are pretty worthless if the Mavs make the playoffs and become low first rounders... if you said the Mavs traded Ager and PPod, (IMO) it wouldn't matter. That is what most late first rounders become. Gone after their rookie contract is up.

dirno2000 · 11-22-2008, 07:53 PM

You continue to overlook the value of 1st rounders as trade currency.

Plus Podkolzine could have been Kevin Martin, Tony Allen, Sasha Vujacic etc. You don't devalue the 21st pick in the draft just because we made a bad pick there in the past.

I'd agree though that durability may prove to be Devin's downfall. Time will tell.

Bayliss · 11-22-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

You continue to overlook the value of 1st rounders as trade currency.

Plus Podkolzine could have been Kevin Martin, Tony Allen, Sasha Vujacic etc. You don't devalue the 21st pick in the draft just because we made a bad pick there in the past.

It isn't devaluing the pick because the Mavs selected PPod. They also selected Josh Howard. But in the long run, most late first rounders amount to nothing. So if you go by the odds, then essentially the picks are pretty worthless.

Shoot you can pretty much buy a late first rounder any time you want. Portland does it all the time.

xraided199 · 11-22-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

This just makes me angry. Up until his ankle injury, I thought Devin was one of the only bright spots last year (the other being Bass.) And so what do we do? We trade him for a guy a decade older with half his speed. I remember saying last year that Devin had surpassed Josh as our second-best player. I still believe that.

What was the logic behind trading for Kidd again? "Win now." Wasn't that it? What a crock of sh*t that was.

+100 to you my kind sir

THANK YOU! you said it absolutely perfectly. even if Kidd is surprisingly playing better than an 82-year old with a broken back and a walker, there is NO doubt that Harris would be a million times better for us right now. we took many steps back with that trade, and i will always regret it.

Bayliss · 11-22-2008, 08:08 PM

If the trade doesn't happen... Avery would still be here btw.

Janett_Reno · 11-22-2008, 09:25 PM

After 3 q's, Harris has an amazing 12 fta's. This guy can flat take it to the rim. I also agree, if the trade of Harris did not happen, Avery would still be here.

Janett_Reno · 11-22-2008, 09:40 PM

Kidd is having a good year and where Harris drives, Kidd can rebound and is better ast man. Looking last night at the Memphis game i want to point out Memphis really sux. Those guys never look to go into the painr but first man touches it, jack it up. They will never win that way as Mark Gasol isn't to bad but they just do not look to go into the paint.

Kidd was smart and would back the smaller pg back into the paint, one on one and spin around and lay up off him. I think his name was Conley. Kidd is smart and doing good for us but the make up of our team isn't great for him. Singleton, this guy was athletic and can jump but as he would rebound he would be scarred to go right back up and dunk the ball and would wait untill people would come get on him. If he would use his athletic skills he could help us.

I would like to see what this team could do with an inside scorrer, a starter or bench man comming in. Either one. This would help our whole team if we get an inside game. I have not watched NJ but i bet they still have no inside game either and like here, Harris has to drive the ball to the rim for his team to be effective. In half court and he does do it good.

Tokey41 · 11-22-2008, 10:18 PM

Do you people know why we love Dirk? That's the same reason I love Devin. They are both efficient. He's 7th in PER right now, he's actually out performing Dirk in terms of efficiency. When he has the ball he makes it count, those are players your supposed to cherish. What's Kidd's PER compared to Devin's... exactly.

He's definitely going to be in consideration for most improved player. All-star team? Probably not this year.

ghazi · 11-23-2008, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Do you people know why we love Dirk? That's the same reason I love Devin. They are both efficient. He's 7th in PER right now, he's actually out performing Dirk in terms of efficiency. When he has the ball he makes it count, those are players your supposed to cherish. What's Kidd's PER compared to Devin's... exactly.

He's definitely going to be in consideration for most improved player. All-star team? Probably not this year.

But having Kidd on the team last year improved the production of Dampier, Terry, and Nowitzki... so you can't JUST compare Kidd's PER to Devin's PER. The only player who dropped, rather ominously, after the Kidd trade, was Howard.

I don't mind the Kidd trade at all. We can play what if games all day long but if we're not winning a championship with Kidd, we certainly weren't winning a championship with Devin Harris and two draft picks that could be used to pick up another piece (again, this is a hypothetical "what if" scenario).

fluid.forty.one · 11-23-2008, 03:42 AM

All you pro devin guys are ignoring an important point.

What happens to a devin harris when he goes from a team with 3 other "better" scorers to a team with only one. His scoring increases. Trade howard to the crappiest team in the league and his ppg will go up 6 points.

Devin got better from the trade.

Dirk (I shouldn't even need to go on after this point, this is the most important part of the whole thing), damp, terry etc (and howard this year) get better for our side.

Ill take that any day of the week.

If devin was here he would not be scoring 30 consistantly, as a lot of those shots would be going to terry, josh and dirk so why should it matter if he's doing a 2 man game with vince carter. It doesn't change our reality.

Also, think about it this way.. What exactly was holding devin back from playing how he is now? It obviously wasn't avery since devin still willing takes advice phone calls from him and avery "didn't want the trade". The real reason for the production increase is because he's not in competition for his shots, and he's getting fouled waaay too much.

jthig32 · 11-23-2008, 08:09 AM

I'm not even willing to enter into a debate on whether Devin would be helping the Mavs more this season. It's just silly. Kidd is playing very well. He is making a lot of things go on this team.

If you want to debate the merits of the trade for the long term, I'm on board with that. But Jason Kidd will prove, over the course of this season, that he is, right now, a better basketball player than Devin Harris. And he's a better fit for this team.

Tokey41 · 11-23-2008, 12:42 PM

So the only reason Harris got any better is because he's on a worse team? It has nothing to do with his development as a player? On a team where Harris is the second banana the Nets are 6-6, on a team where Kidd is our second/third best player the Mavs are 6-7 (in a statistically weaker conference no less). I'd take Devin as our second banana if it meant winning, the Nets are clearly exceeding their expectations for this season thus far playing .500 ball. The Mavs expectations? I don't exactly know what the consensus here is but for me it's a championship or nothing.

If you want to pull the passing game automatically makes us better card that's fine. But I hope you don't forget that winning 67 games and making a finals appearance doesn't just happen. And yes, we accomplished those feats with players that prefer iso's... but so what? It worked. I stand by the statement that if we don't replicate the success we had with our previous team then this trade should undoubtedly be considered a failure.

basketballgirl25 · 11-23-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

I'd take Devin as our second banana if it meant winning, the Nets are clearly exceeding their expectations for this season thus far playing .500 ball.

and hopefully Nets continue to exceed their expectations, because I'm loving how Brook is doing along with all the other players

dirno2000 · 11-23-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

All you pro devin guys are ignoring an important point.

What happens to a devin harris when he goes from a team with 3 other "better" scorers to a team with only one. His scoring increases. Trade howard to the crappiest team in the league and his ppg will go up 6 points.

NJ's not he crappiest team in the league. Their record is slightly better than ours and with Devin in the lineup they're a winning team.

I'm probably the biggest Josh Howard supporter on the board but he's not a 26ppg scorer. He's found his natural level and it's at around 20ppg. Send him to OK City and he may score a few more points but his fg% would likely suffer.

Quote:

Dirk (I shouldn't even need to go on after this point, this is the most important part of the whole thing), damp, terry etc (and howard this year) get better for our side.

I think this a case of you seeing what you expect to see. The numbers really don't support it. Terry's scoring rate is up slightly but his fg% is the lowest it's been since he got to Dallas. Probably because he has to take the shots that Kidd doesn't. Dirk's PER is at it's lowest level since 2003-2004 (the Antoine Walker year). Damp's shooting 64% but he shot 64% last year and 63% the year before. His points per 40 minutes are down a bit this year.

Quote:

If devin was here he would not be scoring 30 consistantly, as a lot of those shots would be going to terry, josh and dirk so why should it matter if he's doing a 2 man game with vince carter. It doesn't change our reality.

He'd be scoring a few less points but if you don't think we could use his points in the paint and his ability to get to the line and get the other team in the penalty you're not being honest with yourself.

Quote:

Also, think about it this way.. What exactly was holding devin back from playing how he is now? It obviously wasn't avery since devin still willing takes advice phone calls from him and avery "didn't want the trade". The real reason for the production increase is because he's not in competition for his shots, and he's getting fouled waaay too much.

Devin didn't develop as fast as we'd have liked largely because didn't have a clear path to the starting PG spot the Paul, Parker and Williams had. We had Jason Terry and we were trying to win the West every year so it was hard to force feed him minutes at the 1. That changed last year when we finally gave him the ball but then we traded him in the middle of the season.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-24-2008, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

NJ's not he crappiest team in the league. Their record is slightly better than ours and with Devin in the lineup they're a winning team.

I'm probably the biggest Josh Howard supporter on the board but he's not a 26ppg scorer. He's found his natural level and it's at around 20ppg. Send him to OK City and he may score a few more points but his fg% would likely suffer.

I think this a case of you seeing what you expect to see. The numbers really don't support it. Terry's scoring rate is up slightly but his fg% is the lowest it's been since he got to Dallas. Probably because he has to take the shots that Kidd doesn't. Dirk's PER is at it's lowest level since 2003-2004 (the Antoine Walker year). Damp's shooting 64% but he shot 64% last year and 63% the year before. His points per 40 minutes are down a bit this year.

He'd be scoring a few less points but if you don't think we could use his points in the paint and his ability to get to the line and get the other team in the penalty you're not being honest with yourself.

Devin didn't develop as fast as we'd have liked largely because didn't have a clear path to the starting PG spot the Paul, Parker and Williams had. We had Jason Terry and we were trying to win the West every year so it was hard to force feed him minutes at the 1. That changed last year when we finally gave him the ball but then we traded him in the middle of the season.

I agree with everything this man just said. All this stuff about Dirk, Terry, and Damp being "better" with Kidd than they were with Devin... It's just not happening.

dude1394 · 11-26-2008, 10:08 PM

Funny stuff....Devin shows it to the lakers girls. And has to be pulled out of their.

http://sportscracklepop.com/2008/11/...e-laker-girls/

Tokey41 · 11-27-2008, 03:04 AM

Weird, I thought Avery had Devin fixed...

basketballgirl25 · 11-27-2008, 06:19 AM

that was the greatest video, I missed that play being on east coast time, meant I was sleeping, hahaha

chumdawg · 11-27-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Weird, I thought Avery had Devin fixed...

That's funny!

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-27-2008, 01:11 PM

Harris is having an undeniably excellent year thus far. 22.5 points, 6.3 assists, 1.2 steals and a better than 3 to 1 assist/turnover ratio.

Noone can question his talent or what he brings to the floor each night.

Can he stay injury free though?

dude1394 · 11-27-2008, 05:15 PM

Devin is looking like a stud. Good luck to my nephew.

buddha08 · 11-30-2008, 12:34 AM

Devin gets to the line more than the current Mavs' roster combined. We are screwed if we don't start getting to the line more. Devin would have been so much better for this team, especially under Carlisle. I imagine he would flourish as Terry has as of late, and I suspect we would have a record better than .500. Devin defends exceptionally well, shares some of the scoring burden (something Kidd doesn't), and gets to the line. Arghhhhh. I'm still pissed off about the Kidd trade!!!!!

buddha08 · 11-30-2008, 12:36 AM

Say Kidd walks next year. Who the hell leads this team JJB? How are we ever going to land a talented replacement with other need to fill as well? Suckssssssss.....

chumdawg · 11-30-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buddha08

Say Kidd walks next year. Who the hell leads this team JJB? How are we ever going to land a talented replacement with other need to fill as well? Suckssssssss.....

Trust me, this franchise has a lot of experience with MVP-quality quards walking on us. Don't worry about it.

fluid.forty.one · 11-30-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Trust me, this franchise has a lot of experience with MVP-quality quards walking on us. Don't worry about it.

Kidd is just holding Dirk back.

dirno2000 · 11-30-2008, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buddha08

Say Kidd walks next year. Who the hell leads this team JJB? How are we ever going to land a talented replacement with other need to fill as well? Suckssssssss.....

We're not letting Kidd walk. We're either trading him or resigning him. Letting him walk would be a sign that we're rebuilding and it's hard to rebuild when you've traded away your first lottery pick. Not impossible but hard.

chumdawg · 11-30-2008, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Kidd is just holding Dirk back.

I hadn't thought about that until you mentioned it. But it's a very good point.

chumdawg · 11-30-2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

We're not letting Kidd walk. We're either trading him or resigning him. Letting him walk would be a sign that we're rebuilding and it's hard to rebuild when you've traded away your first lottery pick. Not impossible but hard.

It has nothing to do with draft picks. It has everything to do with roster flexibility.

dirno2000 · 11-30-2008, 01:08 AM

Yea right. And of course there's no connection between draft picks and roster flexibility.

chumdawg · 11-30-2008, 01:16 AM

Well, you tell me. What did we gain in the way of draft picks and roster flexibility in the wake of the brilliant not-matching-Nash move?

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-30-2008, 01:44 AM

These fantastic games by Harris are kinda like a punch in the stomach.

dirno2000 · 11-30-2008, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, you tell me. What did we gain in the way of draft picks and roster flexibility in the wake of the brilliant not-matching-Nash move?

I didn't know we were talking about Nash. Thought we were talking about Kidd.

chumdawg · 11-30-2008, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I didn't know we were talking about Nash. Thought we were talking about Kidd.

As you like it.

Of course, that does shine another light on it.