12-17-2010, 03:55 PM
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#121
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
Personally, I'm not at all sure that Houston would trade Martin for Haywood and Roddy.
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Me neither...because if they would the mavs would be all over that puppy...If nothing else to re-do woods contract.
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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12-17-2010, 03:56 PM
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#122
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kg_veteran
Martin's defensive shortcomings are my only reservation about him, but let's be serious. Are you acquiring Martin to be a defensive stopper? Furthermore, are you expecting Roddy to be a defensive stopper (or even be a really good defender)? If you answer "yes" to either question, then I'd submit that your expectations are unrealistic.
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I think you are comparing Martin to Jet defensively imo...because at the end of the day, that's who's minutes he'll get..
And there will be a lot of 3guard lineups I expect.
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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12-17-2010, 04:01 PM
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#123
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one
As Roddy sits out the first 25 games with a foot injury...
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Make that 25+ with no timetable of return...
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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12-17-2010, 04:14 PM
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#124
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
This hasn't really been publicized more than "the Rockets like Haywood" and "the Mavs have always liked Martin". Everything else has been pure conjecture, unless I missed something.
And I would say the Butler trade had a long lead up to it with many stories being written about the Mavs' interest in him.
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Are you sure? I don't remember that at all, honestly. I remember long-standing discussions that we were definitely going to trade Howard, but I don't think Butler's name was ever mentioned more than just one of several guys we were potentially interested in. It's different when you start singling a guy out as a "target" or a person of interest on his own.
__________________
John Madden on Former NFL Running Back Leroy Hoard: "You want one yard, he'll get you three. You want five yards, he'll get you three."
"Your'e a low-mentality drama gay queen!!" -- She_Growls
Last edited by LonghornDub; 12-17-2010 at 04:14 PM.
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12-17-2010, 04:27 PM
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#125
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Platinum Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 2,329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394
Make that 25+ with no timetable of return...
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Whats your point? Kevin Martin is even worse, missing 20+ games is normal season for him.
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12-17-2010, 05:37 PM
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#126
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,002
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change mind
Last edited by mavs777; 12-17-2010 at 08:58 PM.
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12-17-2010, 07:34 PM
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#127
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Golden Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,209
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I'm worried about the defense...I'm not sure if I want Chandler, Mahinmi and Ajinca as our centers to battle the Spurs or Lakers in the playoffs.
Martin would help with the offense but when was the last time he made the team he was on better?...
Last edited by Thomas86; 12-17-2010 at 07:35 PM.
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12-17-2010, 07:41 PM
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#128
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Lazy Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lazytown
Posts: 18,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
Are you sure? I don't remember that at all, honestly. I remember long-standing discussions that we were definitely going to trade Howard, but I don't think Butler's name was ever mentioned more than just one of several guys we were potentially interested in. It's different when you start singling a guy out as a "target" or a person of interest on his own.
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I'm not sure why it's different if he's alone or mentioned with other people. I don't think anyone has said "Martin is the primary target". All that's really been written is that the Mavs are interested. Or even that they have been in the past.
If someone other than Marc Stein was reporting that the Mavs were actively pursuing Martin, then I agree that I would be skeptical.
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12-17-2010, 08:44 PM
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#129
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirkgreatness
Whats your point? Kevin Martin is even worse, missing 20+ games is normal season for him.
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The point is that it's 20+ games with no timetable. How long are you willing to wait on potential
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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12-17-2010, 08:46 PM
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#130
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 17,873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
I'm not sure why it's different if he's alone or mentioned with other people. I don't think anyone has said "Martin is the primary target". All that's really been written is that the Mavs are interested. Or even that they have been in the past.
If someone other than Marc Stein was reporting that the Mavs were actively pursuing Martin, then I agree that I would be skeptical.
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I'm not "skeptical" that they like him, but I'm definitely skeptical that they'll get him, for several reasons.
And I think there's absolutely a distinction between the media singling out a guy as a target versus mentioning him in a group of potential candidates. Early in the process before the teams are anywhere near an agreement in principle, it hurts Team A's bargaining power if there are media reports talking specifically about their interest in Team B's player. It obviously becomes way less of an issue as you get closer to an agreement, but early on it can be pretty hindering.
If you're trying to acquire something of this value in an arms-length negotiation, you never want the other party reading/hearing third-party sources that say how interested you are. And you seem a lot more interested (even if that's not actually the case) if there are media stories specifically talking about your interest in that player, rather than that player as one of many. I think that's one of the reasons (surely not the only one) why you rarely see trades completed when there were early reports of the team's interest. Those types of reports have a chilling effect on the deal actually getting done.
__________________
John Madden on Former NFL Running Back Leroy Hoard: "You want one yard, he'll get you three. You want five yards, he'll get you three."
"Your'e a low-mentality drama gay queen!!" -- She_Growls
Last edited by LonghornDub; 12-17-2010 at 08:51 PM.
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12-17-2010, 08:52 PM
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#131
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
I'm not "skeptical" that they like him, but I'm definitely skeptical that they'll get him, for several reasons.
And I think there's absolutely a distinction between the media singling out a guy as a target versus mentioning him in a group of potential candidates. Early in the process before the teams are anywhere near an agreement in principle, it hurts Team A's bargaining power if there are media reports talking specifically about their interest in Team B's player. It obviously becomes way less of an issue as you get closer to an agreement, but early on it can be pretty hindering.
If you're trying to acquire something of this value in an arms-length negotiation, you never want the other party reading/hearing third-party sources say how interested you are. And you seem a lot more interested (even if that's not actually the case) if there are media stories specifically talking about your interest in that player, rather than that player as one of many.
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Good point - I'm pretty sure that's why we ended up having to throw those draft picks in for Jason Kidd...
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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12-17-2010, 08:57 PM
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#132
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,002
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12-17-2010, 09:06 PM
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#133
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Lazy Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lazytown
Posts: 18,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
I'm not "skeptical" that they like him, but I'm definitely skeptical that they'll get him, for several reasons.
And I think there's absolutely a distinction between the media singling out a guy as a target versus mentioning him in a group of potential candidates. Early in the process before the teams are anywhere near an agreement in principle, it hurts Team A's bargaining power if there are media reports talking specifically about their interest in Team B's player. It obviously becomes way less of an issue as you get closer to an agreement, but early on it can be pretty hindering.
If you're trying to acquire something of this value in an arms-length negotiation, you never want the other party reading/hearing third-party sources that say how interested you are. And you seem a lot more interested (even if that's not actually the case) if there are media stories specifically talking about your interest in that player, rather than that player as one of many. I think that's one of the reasons (surely not the only one) why you rarely see trades completed when there were early reports of the team's interest. Those types of reports have a chilling effect on the deal actually getting done.
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All that's been said, at all, is that "The Mavs are Kevin Martin guys". That's nothing. It has no bearing on anything.
Taken in the context of a hypothetical, I do agree with your premise to a point. But I think it only comes into play if someone well plugged in is reporting that a team is interested in a guy at the exclusion of all others (or at least much more than others).
The Mavs obviously have been very successful in making surprise trades in the past. They do better than most at keeping their information in house. But I don't believe the inverse, that the presence of a rumor decreases the chances that it will happen, at all.
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12-17-2010, 09:26 PM
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#134
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,002
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doesn't mean anything but martin beasting so far and apparently Memphis's team stayed in Memphis
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12-17-2010, 09:44 PM
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#135
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 17,873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
But I don't believe the inverse, that the presence of a rumor decreases the chances that it will happen, at all.
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Empirical evidence from other teams would potentially indicate otherwise. Think about any big-name trade the past several years. How far in advance did you hear about it (i.e., that player to that particular team)? It's rarely more than a few days. Gasol to LA was pretty much the day of, as an example.
There's a question of causation there, but the presence of a rumor generally decreases the chance of a business acquisition happening in all contexts. It's a well-accepted principle of negotiation. I'm not sure why you'd claim that it doesn't apply to basketball deals, but unless you can give me some reason for that, I have to assume it does.
__________________
John Madden on Former NFL Running Back Leroy Hoard: "You want one yard, he'll get you three. You want five yards, he'll get you three."
"Your'e a low-mentality drama gay queen!!" -- She_Growls
Last edited by LonghornDub; 12-17-2010 at 09:50 PM.
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12-18-2010, 01:29 AM
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#136
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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I spoke with more personnel in the Mavs organization this evening, it'll get added in to the piece tomorrow on MMB.
A lot of it will be rehashing general aspects, but it will have those added things I've learned over the course of the day.
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12-18-2010, 01:36 AM
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#137
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,113
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while we're at it maybe we can trade kidd for cp3 and deshawn stevenson for kobe bryant and butler for kevin durant
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12-18-2010, 01:53 AM
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#138
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The Preacha
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrobx
while we're at it maybe we can trade kidd for cp3 and deshawn stevenson for kobe bryant and butler for kevin durant
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That seems doubtful.
__________________
ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
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12-18-2010, 01:58 AM
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#139
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sike
That seems doubtful.
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that was the point... this trade seems just as doubtful as those.
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12-18-2010, 03:05 AM
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#140
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,002
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The more I think about it the more I would think Houston won't do it unless its TC instead of Haywood.
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12-18-2010, 03:42 AM
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#141
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavs777
The more I think about it the more I would think Houston won't do it unless its TC instead of Haywood.
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This is getting ridiculous. The last time he was traded, it was for Carl Landry. At this rate, soon somebody will argue that it takes at least Dirk and Roddy because Dirk alone won't do it.
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12-18-2010, 03:48 AM
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#142
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394
The point is that it's 20+ games with no timetable. How long are you willing to wait on potential
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You do realize that Martin is a guy who misses 20+ games just about every season?
Roddy has one freak injury, Martin has a proven track record of missing 20+ games just about EVERY DAMN YEAR.
Last edited by stuportremens; 12-18-2010 at 03:49 AM.
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12-18-2010, 10:34 AM
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#143
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 41.21.1
Posts: 36,143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavs777
The more I think about it the more I would think Houston won't do it unless its TC instead of Haywood.
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We're not so hard-up for a second scorer that we're gonna give up the guy who changed the identity of this team.
As a matter of fact, the Mavs look so good right now that we don't even NEED to make a trade to compete - we're fairly solid at every position, so we hold the cards when it comes to making deals.
I think we'd be doing Houston a favor if we traded Haywood to them, since there aren't many 7-footers available in this league... Otherwise, best of luck rebuilding your franchise, fellas - we're fine as-is.
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
Last edited by Underdog; 12-18-2010 at 10:34 AM.
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12-18-2010, 10:36 AM
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#144
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Lazy Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lazytown
Posts: 18,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
Empirical evidence from other teams would potentially indicate otherwise. Think about any big-name trade the past several years. How far in advance did you hear about it (i.e., that player to that particular team)? It's rarely more than a few days. Gasol to LA was pretty much the day of, as an example.
There's a question of causation there, but the presence of a rumor generally decreases the chance of a business acquisition happening in all contexts. It's a well-accepted principle of negotiation. I'm not sure why you'd claim that it doesn't apply to basketball deals, but unless you can give me some reason for that, I have to assume it does.
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You really don't think anyone ever wrote "the Lakers like Gasol" before the trade got serious?
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12-18-2010, 12:03 PM
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#145
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,082
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The Mavericks dislike Deron Williams very much.
I think I just landed us DWill!
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12-18-2010, 12:33 PM
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#146
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: behind you
Posts: 6,248
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Well, first off, I don't like the chances of this trade actually being pulled off. I don't see the upside for Houston, giving up a young(ish) scorer like Martin for a center who possibly could be solid, but not any better than that. Martin is scoring 23 ppg right now? He possibly could be even better. Haywood is a 10 points 12 board guy at his ceiling right now, and he's four years older. I know the Rockets are lacking center depth, but its not so bad they are prepared to give up their number one scorer to do so.
I remember I wanted Martin last year. He was my preferred player, out of the trio of Butler, Iguodala and him. I like Martin, and he will score if he comes here. He's not a "bad team" scorer or whatever, he's just a scorer. He shoots and he gets to the line. Those are universal skills, which work in every offense. He doesn't have to have certain pieces around him, or a lack of certain pieces, to score. Obviously, his scoring will drop some because there are a lot of veterans used to shooting the ball on this team, but I'd be shocked if it was not within a point or two of 20 ppg.
My problem is whether our defense could absorb the addition of Martin and stay elite. Our defense was not elite last year, so I wanted Martin so that our offense could be elite. Obviously, that's changed. It'd be freaking stupid to gain elite status on one of the ends of the court, and then throw it away due to a rash player acquisition. Martin is pretty awful on that end, by all accounts, and he doesn't get steals or draw charges like JJB and Terry do to help make up for it. I'm not saying Martin would come in and cause our defense to plummet to 15th in the league or something like that, I'm just saying that if the Mavericks fear he would inversely affect the defense, he has no place on this team.
I also hate losing Roddy, because he's one of those few explosive penetrators. Martin drives and draws fouls, but he's not ridiculously explosive like Beaubois is. 80% of his shots are still jumpers (I'd give you Roddy's % but 82games is acting odd right now). Roddy, on the other hand, can basically get into the lane every possession if he wants. Even when he doesn't take shots, the penetration and subsequent collapse of the defense opens up open jump shots for our primarily jump shooting team. That's why Roddy is such a great fit for this team, and I don't think Martin is the same sort of player at all. That right there is why I'd be really, really hesistant to trade away Roddy right now, no matter who we were trading him for.
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12-18-2010, 12:35 PM
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#147
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: behind you
Posts: 6,248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs
The Mavericks dislike Deron Williams very much.
I think I just landed us DWill!
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Sweet. I doubt you know this, because its not like people talk about it all the time, but he's from the Colony.
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12-18-2010, 01:50 PM
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#148
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: now, here
Posts: 7,720
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Unless we see another source say something in the next couple days, I'm gonna chalk it up to Fish blowing hot air again.
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watch your thoughts, they become your words
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12-18-2010, 02:02 PM
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#149
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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12-18-2010, 02:07 PM
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#150
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: behind you
Posts: 6,248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbitproof
Unless we see another source say something in the next couple days, I'm gonna chalk it up to Fish blowing hot air again.
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Well, it depends on what you mean by hot air. I'm sure there is interest on both sides. I don't think there will be anything close to a compromise between the two sides, though. That's where Fish gets it wrong. He reports that Kevin Martin is available, he reports that Haywood is desired by Houston, and somehow, 2+2=27. Now we have Beaubois/Haywood for Martin rumors floating around. In actuality, its just interest from two teams for two players on the other team, which no real deal even being close to being completed. This isn't something Fish is completely pulling out of his ass, but not really true either.
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12-18-2010, 02:12 PM
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#151
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: behind you
Posts: 6,248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMaverick9
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I love you BG. That was awesome, and I now officially have way more hope than I did before. I still think any deal is quite doubtful, but pointing out that the Rockets have a quantity of wing players was something I had overlooked.
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12-18-2010, 02:59 PM
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#152
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,486
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http://twitter.com/KBerg_CBS
"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."
Maybe Caron would be enough of an addition instead of Roddy. He is a similar asset to Vince.
Last edited by FreshJive; 12-18-2010 at 03:02 PM.
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12-18-2010, 03:00 PM
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#153
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,082
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HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
KBerg_CBS
"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."
So they're definetely willing to trade Martin for a center.
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12-18-2010, 03:04 PM
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#154
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs
HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
KBerg_CBS
"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."
So they're definetely willing to trade Martin for a center.
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If they offered Martin for Gortat, then you'd have to imagine they'd go for Haywood.
__________________
"Cream of the crop gon' rise to the top." -Jaden Hardy
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12-18-2010, 03:07 PM
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#155
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs
HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
KBerg_CBS
"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."
So they're definetely willing to trade Martin for a center.
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Very interesting. Wish I knew which other players were being discussed so I could get a better idea of how Martin's being valued in trade discussions. Any way you slice it, though, if you want the Mavericks to land him in a Haywood-centered deal, this has to be an encouraging piece of news.
__________________
"He's coming off the bench aggressive right away, looking for his shot. If he has any daylight, we need him to shoot the ball. We know it's going in."
-Dirk Nowitzki on Jason Terry, after JET's 16 point 4th quarter against the Pacers.
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12-18-2010, 03:19 PM
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#156
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,486
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http://twitter.com/TheRocketGuy
The Rockets DID NOT offer Martin. They were interested in Gortat, and offered several scenarios, but never offered Martin.
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12-18-2010, 03:21 PM
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#157
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grndmstr_c
Very interesting. Wish I knew which other players were being discussed so I could get a better idea of how Martin's being valued in trade discussions. Any way you slice it, though, if you want the Mavericks to land him in a Haywood-centered deal, this has to be an encouraging piece of news.
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It goes back to what I said in my article, he's expendable based on their depth at the position. Add to it that he's their biggest asset in terms of landing what they'd want...it would look promising for a Dallas angle
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12-18-2010, 03:23 PM
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#158
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshJive
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That still leaves an option open though. It wouldn't be the sexy route though. Like I said, there is going to be interest on both sides...it might not be a home run talent wise but it could still work favorable for both sides.
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12-18-2010, 03:27 PM
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#159
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 17,873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
You really don't think anyone ever wrote "the Lakers like Gasol" before the trade got serious?
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I don't remember one way or another. I certainly can't affirmatively say there wasn't, but I don't remember reading anything to that effect. I can say I was completely blindsided by the deal.
But when you phrase it like that and how Fisher wrote his column, you're right that there may not be indication of a serious level of interest (the kind I'm talking about anyway). If all he really said was "the Mavs are Kevin Martin guys," that's not much. I had to go back and read it again because my initial impression was he was saying more than that.
Also, it's possible I'm giving Fish too much credit in terms of his credibility and readership anyway.
__________________
John Madden on Former NFL Running Back Leroy Hoard: "You want one yard, he'll get you three. You want five yards, he'll get you three."
"Your'e a low-mentality drama gay queen!!" -- She_Growls
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12-18-2010, 03:28 PM
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#160
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,082
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Wonder if that's just a COV on the Rockets part so Martin's value doesn't drop.
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