Lakers or Celtics?

[sike]

Originally Posted by ghazi

At this point in his career, Kobe doesn't even sniff Jordan's jockstrap.

at this point in there careers who has more titles?

[alby]

Originally Posted by sike

at this point in there careers who has more titles?

and yes, that's the argument for Kobe. Like I said, we'll see in 7-9 years..but its not fair to Kobe or to Michael to compare them as of right now.

[sike]

Originally Posted by alby

and yes, that's the argument for Kobe. Like I said, we'll see in 7-9 years..but its not fair to Kobe or to Michael to compare them as of right now.

exactly.

I don't think individual talent will ultimately be the determining factor in their legacies...the simple fact is that Except for the Bad Boys (which were on the way out as he was coming in), MJ never perennially faced a team as good as the Spurs or was in a league as good as the NBA of today.

MJ is...and most likely will always be the King. The planets just do not align like that too often.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by sike

at this point in there careers who has more titles?

Shaq?

[alby]

I think Sike was referring to Michael at 29 and Kobe at 29... which honestly, may not be completely fair. Using this argument, it would be 3-3, no advantage.

Maybe if you refer to Michael's 12th year in the league and Kobe's 12th year, the it would be valid. Using this argument, it would be 4-3, advantage Jordan.

[sike]

Originally Posted by alby

I think Sike was referring to Michael at 29 and Kobe at 29... which honestly, may not be completely fair. Using this argument, it would be 3-3, no advantage.

Maybe if you refer to Michael's 12th year in the league and Kobe's 12th year, the it would be valid. Using this argument, it would be 4-3, advantage Jordan.

it is unfair to hold 18 year old Kobe to championship standards....his first few years in the league were his playground...getting to learn the game.

[Murphy3]

Honestly, I probably won't even flip by the channel one time during the series. I'm not in the least bit interested.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Honestly, I probably won't even flip by the channel one time during the series. I'm not in the least bit interested.

Its hard to believe that such a genuine sports fan would not be interested in ANY finals to at least some degree...but seeing the two greatest historical franchises go at it with such names as Kobe, KG, Pierce, involved...that is surprising.

I've got ZERO rooting interest...but I'll be checking in on the second half of close games.

[alby]

Originally Posted by sike

it is unfair to hold 18 year old Kobe to championship standards....his first few years in the league were his playground...getting to learn the game.

Okay fine 29 years old vs. 29 years old. 3-3 =]

[sike]

Originally Posted by alby

Okay fine 29 years old vs. 29 years old. 3-3 =]

don't get me wrong...Kobe is not MJ. Different era, different league.

[Caseman]

If rings equal how good you are, then I'm sure there are others that are supposably as good as Jordan. That's why I'm not worried about KG winning his and people comparing him to Dirkster. Barkley never got a ring, does that mean he was a horrible player in comparison to any other player in his position that won a Championship?

[fluid.forty.one]

The only thing I'm really intrigued about in this series is how the ratings go. I think everyone is expecting them to suddenly be great again, but that may not happen.

[ty]

The Lakers when they are winning remind me of the times when the Mavs had a huge losing streak against them. Go C's!

[sike]

Originally Posted by ty

The Lakers when they are winning remind me of the times when the Mavs had a huge losing streak against them. Go C's!

ouch. I just can't root for "the big three"...it makes me sick....so sick that I some how find myself rooting for Kobe....sheesh.

[ty]

Originally Posted by sike

ouch. I just can't root for "the big three"...it makes me sick....so sick that I some how find myself rooting for Kobe....sheesh.

You don't can't root for Jesus Shuttlesworth?

[alby]

I can't find myself rooting for LA's supporting cast--Gasol, ODumb, Sasha, Farmar, etc... ugh

[ty]

I just don't want LA because they got a freebie in Gasol. Pisses me off how we didn't get something like that.

[alby]

The worst part ty, is how other teams offered MORE than Kwame/Javaris and got shut down in favor of the Lakers.

[ghazi]

Mavs fans have an OBLIfuckingation to cheer for the Celtics. Historic trends indicate a team that loses in the Finals is unlikely to make a return trip. If the Celtics lose, it doesn't really affect the Mavs. If the Lakers lose, it helps the Mavs, even if slightly. Now I know that's a little cooky considering the Lakers are probably going to get better next year with Bynum, but I don't care! When contemplating between the lesser of two evils, such things have to be considered.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by alby

The worst part ty, is how other teams offered MORE than Kwame/Javaris and got shut down in favor of the Lakers.

Didn't Cuban recently say that Howard for Gasol was presented but the Laker trade was made before those negotiations got underway? Considering the number 1s and the KVH and stackhouse and all that we were evidently willing to part with this season, don't you think the Grizz could have at least explored a better expiring contract / potential player deal with the Mavs?

[alby]

They "explored" them, then I'm sure Mr. West gave them a few kind words about the Lakers organization, and voila~!

[fluid.forty.one]

Dirk and Gasol.... drool...

[ghazi]

Howard for Gasol isn't really that large of an upgrade. Adding Gasol to a team for nothing, as the Lakers did, is.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by ghazi

Howard for Gasol isn't really that large of an upgrade. Adding Gasol to a team for nothing, as the Lakers did, is.

Gasol sucks. He sucked against us when he played him in the playoffs, and he still sucks. He's about as soft a European excuse for a big man as you are ever going to see.

[alby]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Gasol sucks. He sucked against us when he played him in the playoffs, and he still sucks. He's about as soft a European excuse for a big man as you are ever going to see.

He sucked against us in the playoffs because we have the biggest European badass around baby!

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Gasol sucks. He sucked against us when he played him in the playoffs, and he still sucks. He's about as soft a European excuse for a big man as you are ever going to see.

Hey dampier isn't much of a scorer, but you try to get inside on him and you've got issues. Damp flat shut down his inside game. His outside game is okay, but not enough to carry the day.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Hey dampier isn't much of a scorer, but you try to get inside on him and you've got issues. Damp flat shut down his inside game. His outside game is okay, but not enough to carry the day.

You're damn right Damp shut his ass down. And I'm afraid that puts Gasol in a class by himself.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You're damn right Damp shut his ass down. And I'm afraid that puts Gasol in a class by himself.

I think damp sorta shut snack down as well.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think damp sorta shut snack down as well.

Did they go to IHOP afterward and order from the old folks menu?

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by ghazi

Howard for Gasol isn't really that large of an upgrade. Adding Gasol to a team for nothing, as the Lakers did, is.

from the memphis pov, which (should) have been the better deal?

[WayOutWest]

I don't buy into the NBA conspiracy theory because it would not make sense for the league. If word got out it would ruin the league. Just look at the Sonics owners getting their arses handed to them because of the emails that were leaked. You don't think someone would risk life and limb to break a story as big as the NBA conspiring to get certain teams into the Finals. There are far too many people that would need to be involved for the league to risk everyone keeping quiet. An under the table deal between the Wolves/Grizz and Celtics/Lakers is also unlikely because where is the payoffs. Would the entire Wolves/Grizz organization bend over so McHale and West could benefit from their deals with their old teams? NO! So the payoff must benefit the organization, again too many people involved for everyone to keep quiet, too big a risk.

No doubt the Celtics turnaround is due completely to personnel but not so for the Lakers. The Lakers were at or near the top of the WC last year, most said because of their heavy schedule of home games in the early part of the season. It wasn't until injuries hit Odom, Walton, Radmanovic? and a few others did the Lakers start to fall apart. They never got it together and were easy pickings for the Suns. This year the same thing was going on, the Lakers were at or near the top of the WC then Bynum went down. Just go back and check their record around the all-star break and you might get hit with a dose of reality.

Not to mention their is no guarantee the Celtics or Lakers would even make the Finals for that big ratings payoff the NBA would desire. The Celtics looked horribe in rounds 1 and 2 and looked like easy pickings for the Pistons. The Spurs played the Lakers tough and the series could have gone the other way, especially in game 1, and if it hadn't been for Manu's injury the Spurs might have won the series easily. Manu is the Spurs X factor and the guy who has the ball in his hands when the game is on the line but he was practically not available for the Spurs.

I read a lot about the NBA is out to get the Mavs or other small market teams but how can anyone say that with a strait face when the Spurs have won 4 titles in the past decade and NY has been horrible for about the same amount of time. The Spurs blow ANY ratings conspiracy out of the water. They have been playing a lot of shows of past finals and I watched a couple, one was the Mavs vs Heat. For all the complaints about the unfairness of that series towards the Mavs, the ONE play that jumped out at me was the ultra-stupid-Chris-Webber-like play the Mavs made in game 3. The Mavs were up by 1 point with Wade going to the line and 1.9 secs or something left on the clock. Wade hits his first FT and then Howard calls the Mavs LAST time out. That one mistake completely ruined any chance the Mavs had at winning that game. Despite all the BS calls that may or may not have gone against the Mavs that time out was the FINAL nail in the Mavs coffin. Because he called that timeout between FT the Mavs could not advance the ball to half court to at LEAST have a shot at a game winnig score. IMO that was the play that turned the series around. Had Howard not made the dumb mistake the Mavs get a final shot, probably going to Dirk who was hot and hitting some rediculous shots. Not to mention last year the NBA did not force the Mavs to take it easy down the stretch to ensure they were matched up in the first round with the team that had owned them in the regular season. The Mavs have nobody to blame but themselves for some really key mistakes. It was such a shame because for the last few years I've been a fan of the Mavs and I was estatic to see them beat the Spurs and finally break through into championship territory. The last two championship titles belonged to the Mavs and they blew, it was NOT taken away from them by the Lakers, Celtics, Wolves, Grizz or the NBA.

[ghazi]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

from the memphis pov, which (should) have been the better deal?

I would imagine Howard, but I'm not even sure. He wasn't an expiring contract and he isn't young, plus they already have a stud SF in Rudy Gay.

But from a Mavs perspective, I really wouldn't have been too thrilled about a Howard package for Gasol. How do you distribute minutes between Dirk/Gasol/Damp? Who starts the 3 spot? Devean frickin George?

[ty]

Originally Posted by ghazi

I would imagine Howard, but I'm not even sure. He wasn't an expiring contract and he isn't young, plus they already have a stud SF in Rudy Gay.

But from a Mavs perspective, I really wouldn't have been too thrilled about a Howard package for Gasol. How do you distribute minutes between Dirk/Gasol/Damp? Who starts the 3 spot? Devean frickin George?

Dirk starts the 3.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

from the memphis pov, which (should) have been the better deal?

I don't think Howard was an option for them. Cuban only said that they asked for Howard.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by WayOutWest

. . . how can anyone say that with a strait face when the Spurs have won 4 titles in the past . . . .The last two championship titles belonged to the Mavs and they blew, it was NOT taken away from them by the Lakers, Celtics, Wolves, Grizz or the NBA.

So, because the Spurs were able to overcome the system, the system must be fair. And furthermore, because the Mavs were not able to overcome the system, the system must be fair. Sounds like you got all your logical bases covered.

Listening to Lakers fans talk about league bias is like listening to white people talk about how racism doesn't exist.

[WayOutWest]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

So, because the Spurs were able to overcome the system, the system must be fair. And furthermore, because the Mavs were not able to overcome the system, the system must be fair. Sounds like you got all your logical bases covered.

Listening to Lakers fans talk about league bias is like listening to white people talk about how racism doesn't exist.

Small market Spurs win titles with no problem. Largest market Knicks are nowhere to be seen durring the same time frame.

Clearly there is a conspiracy.

[dirno2000]

As much as I'd hate to see KG get a ring before Dirk and as much as it would pain me to root for James Posey, I've changed my stance on my desired outcome for 3 reasons.

1) I just can't root for the Lakers after the Gasol trade. I can hardly watch them. I don't necessarily think it was collusion. Chris Wallace was a horrible GM in Boston and I believe ownership is still trying to cut cost to sell the team. Still, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

I understand wanting to get rid of Gasol's bloated contract but how do you make that deal without squeezing the Lakers them for one of, if not both of, their cheap young players? With a huge hole in the middle, a long road trip approaching, and Kobe still wanting out, Kupcheck would have had to think long and hard about including Bynum and Vujucich(sp) in the deal.

2) You never want a super power in your conference when you have championship aspiration.

3) I like Ray Allen more than any other player in the series and it's not even close.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by WayOutWest

Small market Spurs win titles with no problem. Largest market Knicks are nowhere to be seen durring the same time frame.

Clearly there is a conspiracy.

Consipiricay must be scripted like a play?

[WayOutWest]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I understand wanting to get rid of Gasol's bloated contract but how do you make that deal without squeezing the Lakers them for one of, if not both of, their cheap young players? With a huge hole in the middle, a long road trip approaching, and Kobe still wanting out, Kupcheck would have had to think long and hard about including Bynum and Vujucich(sp) in the deal.

I agree, it was almost like the incopetent Kupchak was in charge of making the decision for the Girzz. No way the Lakers give up Bynum, Jerry Buss's son has staked his reputation on that draft pick so the Lakers were not going to let him go but I completely agree the Grizz should have asked and GOT more, Sasha or Turiaf would make sense. The Grizz should have played a little hard ball and got their way or moved on to the next team that could offer a better deal. There was an article about 10 teams that could have offered as much or more than the Lakers did BUT it was not significantly more. I think the Girzz might have paniced at the Lakers "take it or leave" offer, they should have had the guts to walk away and dump Gasol somewhere else. It is obvious that the Grizz have been in fire sale mode for a few years, they are tyring to sell the team and make them as financially attractive as possible.

[WayOutWest]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Consipiricay must be scripted like a play?

Ahhhhh, so that's it, I am missing the dramatic effect!

Strange for a Laker fan like me to miss the drama behind the scenes considering the Lakers have Kobe the drama queen of the NBA. I feel such shame.......